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Pax can use his dawdling for good this time

Blogabull_s_tiny by your friendly BullsBlogger on

Think Doug Collins minds if Paxson is still interviewing and not giving him a contract? Of course not, he's a friend of the organization!

So who cares what the reports were. DetroitBadBoys speculates that Flip Saunders may get fired instead of heading into a 'lame duck' season. Hire that retread Detroit coach instead of Collins.

The Detroit News says that Flip has been told he'll be back. But no news of a contract extension, either. A new contract, and being unshackled from expectations and handling Rasheed Wallace, may not make jumping to the Bulls such a bad idea.

I don't know who this blogger is, but I'll link him to fan the flames.

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Clubhouse Cancer gives me a giggle

It’s been showing up in my automated search stuff for a few weeks, and the ubiquitous source (now “multiple unnamed sources”) hasn’t had a shot at being wrong yet.

by hscs on Jun 2, 2008 7:34 AM CDT   0 recs

Wow

A “Bulls staffer” has confirmed it. Between that and Joey Dorsey’s flux-capacitored future-mobile, I’m on the edge of my seat.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Jun 2, 2008 4:11 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Alright... I'll bite.

What makes Saunders a better choice than Collins?

by tyger1147 on Jun 2, 2008 7:54 AM CDT   0 recs

he coaches offense and defense

Pace that fits the personnel, wears funny ties, is a hobbit, etc.

by hscs on Jun 2, 2008 8:21 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And Gay

And i dont mean happy…and i really think its true, just check out his demeanor.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....

by piccolomair on Jun 2, 2008 11:38 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Flip's married and has a kid

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Jun 2, 2008 11:45 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Aww

Let me be stupid once in a while…..

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....

by piccolomair on Jun 2, 2008 2:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

that was pretty stupid, picco

especially since I think you were confusing Saunders and Marc Iavaronni of Memphis….

Juuuuust kidding, everybody.

2008 or bust.

by bullshooter on Jun 2, 2008 2:57 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Ugh, yeah

Bad year for a coaching search. Saunders’ last four teams have finished the regular season with the #1, #1, #1, and #2 seeds, and he’s never made the Finals.

by YaoPau on Jun 2, 2008 9:41 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

what year is it

when all the championship coaches are available? Heck nobody likes Avery Johnson either and he went to a finals.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2008 9:43 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Let me rephrase that to

“I can’t believe we didn’t get one of Mike D’Antoni, Larry Brown, or Rick Carlisle”. I take it back, this actually wasn’t a bad year, but the hirings of those three seem like forever ago.

by YaoPau on Jun 2, 2008 9:48 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd put Flip Saunders amongst that group

I wouldn’t put Doug Collins though.

(In my arbitrary ‘rankings’)

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2008 9:53 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

What's been Flip's problem in Detroit?

It seems like they never have really warmed up to him.

Didn’t tthe Pistons have the 2nd best record in the nba this season…and the town is calling for his head?

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jun 2, 2008 10:22 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Chris Webber says the Pistons leader

is Joe Dumars.

That may be part of the problem, but I think the bigger problem is that the Pistons just aren’t that interested in winning it all. They’re cool with EC appearances.

by NBA Observer on Jun 2, 2008 12:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

they didn't have a better season than the Celtics

so I guess they didn’t ‘turn it up’ for the playoffs…or, what makes more sense: they just weren’t as good.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2008 12:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

then John Paxson is the Bulls' leader

And the “problem”, as it may, applies to us as well.

Parental Advisory - Explicit Content

by Jivas on Jun 2, 2008 1:23 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Ugh

I’m not at all psyched about Doug’s return, but Flip would be a huge mistake. The man has proven with two teams that he is not a capable coach. Detroit has underachieved every postseason with Flip at the helm, and his playoff decision-making has been abysmal. Ask any Pistons fan. They were done with him two years ago, then the “let’s never double LeBron” game 5 from last year, and now some really poor performances with no adjustments this year.

Doug’s more of a gamble, but I’ll take a gamble over a sure thing that will never get you to the Finals.

by Reed97 on Jun 2, 2008 11:13 AM CDT   0 recs

totally with you on this one

i wouldn’t want flip.

by Jaina on Jun 2, 2008 11:16 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Umm. didn't Collins underachieve

with Michael Jordan, Saunders has consistently coached one of the 2 best teams in the Eastern conference how exactly did Collins beat his performance with the GOAT Jordan?

by bullschwaa on Jun 2, 2008 11:34 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

He got some awful teams with Jordan

to the conference finals. And Jackson didn’t get the bulls to the championship until his second year. Go back and look at where those bulls teams finished in the regular season. Collins’ bulls teams upset some teams with much better overall talent in the playoffs.

2008 or bust.

by bullshooter on Jun 2, 2008 11:37 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Collins did a terrific job with Detroit.

Colllins worked 2 1/2 seasons with the Pistons starting in 1995, going 46-36, 54-28 and 21-24. In 1994, with Don Chaney as coach Detroit’s record was 28-54. That is an impressive turn-around.

by chgobr on Jun 2, 2008 11:48 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Collins got the Bulls to the Conference Finals once

They didn’t exactly upset any great teams that year either. They beat the Cavs and the Knicks before losing to Detroit. The years before that, they lost in the first round (‘87) and second round (‘88).

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Jun 2, 2008 11:52 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

As evidenced by the three consecutive championships they would eventually win

Oh, wait. The Cavs may have had more good players, but the Bulls at that point were as good as the Cavs. Beating them was no significant upset.

Collins may be as good if not better coach than Saunders. Saunders is just a better fit for this team as he’s displayed an ability to coach both ends of the court and adjust his pace to his roster.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Jun 2, 2008 12:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No, the Cavs were better.

I’m wondering if you’re too young to remember those years, or you weren’t paying attention back then?

The Cavs were the favorite, the team with better record & home-court, and the up-and-coming next ‘dynasty’. They had a dang good starting lineup at every position and solid players off the bench. Magic Johnson had referred to them as the next dyanasty of the ‘90s. It’s convenient to remember that MJ hit the shot in game 5 against the Cavs, maybe not too convenient to remember that it was Collins coaching them to that victory and that they were underdogs.

Then the Bulls upset the Knicks 4-2, and took 2 games from the Pistons in the EC Finals. That year the Pistons were 15-2 in the playoffs. They only lost twice – to the Bulls.

In fact, when you consider that (with the Bulls) Doug Collins lost to the 86-87 Celtics, 87-88 Pistons, and 88-89 Pistons – you could say that Collins lost to BETTER teams in the playoffs than Flip Saunders or D’Antoni. And as pointed out above – Phil only did one game better his first season (4-3 loss to Pistons), before finally breaking through.

Just because the Bulls won three straight titles three years on doesn’t mean that Collins didn’t upset better teams with totally-unbalanced Bulls lineup.

by BullsFanInSeattle on Jun 2, 2008 2:28 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm just old enough to remember how good those Cavs teams were

While the talk at the time was that the Cavs would be better, it’s pretty easy in hindsight to see that they weren’t all that everyone was making them out to be. The Bulls weren’t that far off from those Cav’s teams, or the Knicks team they beat, to consider beating them as major upsets. A deeper roster doesn’t always equal a better team.

While Phil’s first team may have only won one more game in the playoffs, they won 8 more games in the regular season.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Jun 2, 2008 2:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The Cavs were all that.

The Cavs were absolutely everything that everyone was making them out to be. But the MJ was better. He single-handedly kept that franchise from winning anything during that 5-6 year span, just as the Pistons had kept him down.

I believe that the point of this part of the thread was to point out that Collins did not underachieve while previously with the Bulls. You keep writing, so I’ll have to assume that you believe that Collins did underchieve with the Bulls. I, however, believes it completely ignores history and the state of affairs at the time.

Doug Collins took underdog Bulls teams and beat higher-rated opponents until they eventually lost to world-champion dynasties. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

by BullsFanInSeattle on Jun 2, 2008 2:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Umm...
He single-handedly kept that franchise from winning anything during that 5-6 year span,

Doesn’t that sort of discount your point that Collins had much to do with it?

by tyger1147 on Jun 2, 2008 2:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

My point wasnt'....

...that Collins had ‘much to do with it.’

My point was that Collins didn’t underachieve during his time with the Bulls. That’s it. You guys are trying to read waaaaay too much into it. From my statement you could make the leap that I didn’t think Phil had much to do with it either. While that wouldn’t be true, it would underscore the point.

Given that Phil won 6 titles with the Bulls, does anyone think he ‘underachieved’ in his first season, when he lost to the Pistons? Because that’s what some people think of Collins. As you can tell, I disagree.

by BullsFanInSeattle on Jun 2, 2008 2:55 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Whereas Saunders has all the pieces in Detroit

and can’t get them over the hump.

2008 or bust.

by bullshooter on Jun 2, 2008 2:59 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

kidding(?)

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2008 2:59 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No, I am trying to tangle threads

or I am lost, who knows… Can somebody point me to the men’s room?....

2008 or bust.

by bullshooter on Jun 2, 2008 3:01 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Well

For starters, the Celtics this season and Cavs last season were winnable series by any stretch of the imagination.

Whereas, I don’t see the Bulls getting past the 86-87 Celtics nor the 88-89 Pistons regardless of who was coach.

by BullsFanInSeattle on Jun 2, 2008 3:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd say it's more the case that

Collins presided over the rise of the Bulls, while Flip presided over the demise of the Pistons.

I’m not a Flip fan. Maybe if the Bulls hire him they can run some sort of an in-game promotion where a fan gets to come down and apply the cardiac paddles to Flip at the beginning of the fourth quarter…just to make sure he’s awake and alert.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jun 2, 2008 12:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

If he's not screaming, he's not coaching

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Jun 2, 2008 12:43 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

If his eyes are closed and he's resting his head on a pillow

he’s not awake. He may not even be alive!

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jun 2, 2008 12:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Demise?

It’s been more of a “sustained above-average play” for Flip’s tenure. The coach can only do so much. This isn’t a case of Flip having Skiles-syndrome, generally being a douche to his players that the partnership is just doomed after a certain point. Flip has been in the playoffs every year as a head coach, and the underachieving tag has followed him everywhere. However, doesn’t some of that blame go to KG for not having that superstar mode where he can just dominate games for those 1st round failures? Doesn’t the Detroit lineup deserve some blame for taking the Heat and the Cavs too lightly, then not stepping their game up at the right time against the Celtics? Flip has made tons of playoff mistakes to be sure, but I would go ahead and place him higher than Collins any day of the week in terms of coaching. Doug may be a basketball genius, but his well documented emotional problems, inability to adapt to a different offensive style don’t make him particularly refreshing either.

Rusty Longley v 2.0

by Ozzie Montana on Jun 2, 2008 4:10 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Not capable

Please define not capable and how Collins is more capable please. Also how does Collins gamble and get the Bulls to a Finals with this team?

by bullschwaa on Jun 2, 2008 11:53 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

My mind is in a different place regarding Collins

He succeeded everywhere he coached except Washington where the real coach was MJ. Our record last year was 33 – 49. 33 – 49, not 49 – 33. Before we hit the draft jackpot we were looking forward to a possible future of not making the playoffs. Now we are worried about Collins because he didn’t go to the NBA finals? I’d be happy if Collins turns us around to 45 wins as long as he develops Rose and the other young guys on our team.

by chgobr on Jun 2, 2008 12:24 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree with you

Young talent is good, but it’s not exactly the best coaching opp in the league. Big-market pressure, and lots of young players to develop.

"I tell you, Steve Blass, you pitch me inside, they never, never find that ball."
-Roberto Clemente

by cubbybear on Jun 2, 2008 12:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

the probable future is getting back on track to being a semi-serious playoff team

Any coach not named Boylan will be lucky enough to get credit for turning things around. The draft pick just made that future brighter, and made roster decisions a lot easier. The Bulls don’t need a wacky guy like Collins to ‘fix’ things, only to have disaster strike 2 or 3 seasons down the road.

by hscs on Jun 2, 2008 12:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

if anything

Collins is the ‘sure thing’. He’ll get some improvement and then flame out. They’re even making supplemental hires knowing this!

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2008 12:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

...which may not be a bad idea.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jun 2, 2008 12:52 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Gamble

I’m not saying that Collins does gamble, I’m saying that hiring him is a bit of a gamble because he may be over the hill as a coach, and that his style really may not mesh with the Bulls’ talent. But with Flip, you know exactly what you’re getting. A decent regular season coach who can’t coach in the playoffs. Maybe some people don’t view Collins as a gamble. That’s fine, but his results are still far less predictable than Saunders would be.

by Reed97 on Jun 2, 2008 4:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

doesn't he make the adjustments

and his players ignore him? That’s a red flag too, unless your team has Rasheed Wallace as the ringleader.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2008 12:48 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Adjustments

Believe me, he doesn’t make ‘em. Many of my closest friends are die-hard Pistons fans. They have been aghast at his lack of coaching in playoff situations over these last three years.

by Reed97 on Jun 2, 2008 4:03 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll rather have Flip

The Piston has been underachieving way before Flip came into the picture. This team has always had the mentality that it can hit the on and off switch. Not to forget the out of control Wallace, who has blown his team chances for repeat almost ever year after the year they won the title. When Flip came on board this team’s scoring hit a huge spike. The Pistons went from a grid it out defensively to an offensive juggernaut. With Flip, the Piston could not only hurt you defensively but offensively effortlessly as well.

Doug is like a old tee shirt who keeps coming back that couldn’t get it done with the best basketball player in the world.

by Soloistic on Jun 2, 2008 5:44 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Except that,

that “old tee shirt” has only coached three teams in his coaching career, and wasn’ given the opportunity to coach Michael after HE broke through with him in the playoffs. Then was given another shot when expectations were far too high for an over the hill player (the greatest over the hill player ever). And the only other team he coached improved 18 games immediately after he got involved. So think you can hardly say that he couldn’t get it done. I think Flip is the real retread out of the two.

by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 2, 2008 6:51 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

no, it's not

Garnett, Marbury, Rasho, and Wally World were all young, productive receivers of minutes. Flip even worked Maxiell and Stuckey in more than the veteran garbage on the bench.

by hscs on Jun 2, 2008 12:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

right, and if the complaint that he was playing too many veterans on the Pistons

it was overdoing his veteran starting 5 that actually deserves to start, not some kind of Adrian Griffin fixation like past coaches here would have.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2008 12:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Exactly.

Who here wouldn’t be thrilled if young guys on the Bulls wouldn’t have been worked in like those last two? Hell, even Aaron Afflalo got decent minutes.

Good point.

by tyger1147 on Jun 2, 2008 1:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The core has always been seasoned NBA vets

Wolves: Garnett, Terrel Brandon, Sam Cassell, Sprewell, Anthony Peeler

Pistons: Billups, Hamilton, Wallace, Prince, McDyess, Webber

I just don’t think we have any roster like these teams with proven NBA vets.

It would be nice to pretend that we have any kind of roster like Detroit that could even hope to incorporate players like Maxiell and Stuckey into an already solid core.

by NBA Observer on Jun 2, 2008 1:52 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

What does anybody know about Hornacek?

I keep hearing his name linked to this story as the coach-in-waiting.

All I know is that he has local connections (what else is new?)...and I remember him as a pretty decent player for the Jazz both times the bulls played them for the title.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jun 2, 2008 12:37 PM CDT   0 recs

He worked with the Jazz this past season in a limited role

Some attribute Kirilenko’s improved 3pt shooting to Hornacek. Oh, and his nickname is Horny, which is fun for about 5 minutes.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Jun 2, 2008 12:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

everytime it's an assistant coach

they get all the credit, none of the blame.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2008 12:44 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

That's not the point...

They just want to be negative about the guy the Bulls hire…and positive about the guy they don’t. It’s all about providing cover to whine and complain.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jun 2, 2008 2:08 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

go away, alec.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2008 2:15 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

his strategy isn't play slower, then yell

He coaches both sides of the ball, his teams have played fast and/or slow, and he dresses better than Skiles. He’s coached quite a few successful youngsters as well.

by hscs on Jun 2, 2008 2:09 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I just realized

i’ve watched a ton of basketball in my life and seen a ton of games Flip has coached and i can’t remember ever hearing him talk.

by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 2, 2008 2:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

analysts are always smarter than the people they're analyzing

thus, how Paxson got the GM job in the first place.

I honestly don’t understand the ‘joke’ that Flip’s too quiet. Not that I wouldn’t ‘get it’ if it were true, but I really didn’t think one way or the other about his in-game ‘passion’.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2008 2:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Funny how the guy that rarely screams or walks around

Is the head coach of the favored team to win the NBA Finals.

Rusty Longley v 2.0

by Ozzie Montana on Jun 2, 2008 4:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It's not about screaming and yelling.

It’s about being alert to the moment.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jun 2, 2008 4:17 PM CDT to parent up