Chad Ford speculation: Nocioni for Odom
(via MLive ):
With the Lakers flaming out in the Finals, it didn't take long for speculation about Lamar Odom to begin. A number of teams covet Odom because of his expiring contract.
I'd expect the Lakers to hear from the Nets (for Richard Jefferson), the Bulls (for Andres Nocioni), the Kings (for Ron Artest) and the Grizzlies (for Mike Miller).
I think Chad's pretty batty to think the Lakers would believe Nocioni's that much of an upgrade from Vlad Radmonovic.
But dealing for someone like Odom and with a team like the Lakers is a direction the Bulls should be looking. They're looking for pieces, likely aren't too concerned with 2010, and therefore could use the likes of Nocioni, Hinrich, and Gooden.
Then again, Odom's good enough to play a lot, so Gooden would likely have to go. And I think Gooden's actually the better fit next to Tyrus/Noah as someone who can at least put a body on opposing centers.
Maybe Nocioni/Hinrich for Odom/Farmar?
Rose/Farmar
Gordon/Hughes
Deng/Thabo
Odom/Thomas
Noah/Gooden
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Actually Thomas could play some 3 if Odom's the 4
Thomas on the wing on defense, Odom on the wing on offense.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 19, 2008 11:38 AM CDT 0 recs
Tyrus doesn't do well against SFs
He was drafted high because he can jump and deny anything in the lane, not play lateral defense. I hoped his growing to 6’10” would end the SF talk.
by YaoPau on
Jun 19, 2008 10:38 PM CDT
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you don't think he has the agility to cope?
I think his perimeter defense is pretty decent, just needs to get a bit smarter at it.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 19, 2008 10:58 PM CDT
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Has Kirilenko coped?
To me, nobody is more similar defensively to Tyrus than Andrei. Both guys are superhumanquick jumpers with long arms, average lateral movement, and are about the same height.
From ‘04-’06 when Kirilenko was a PF he averaged 3.1bpg, 1.7spg and earned that max contract with plus-minuses of +10.0, +11.3, and +9.8. In the two years since moving to SF, he averaged 1.8bpg, 1.1spg with plus-minuses of -4.0 and +4.0, got blown by countless times by McGrady and Kobe, and threatened to quit the NBA. I remember watching an interview in the Rockets/Jazz series where McGrady said “Between Fisher, Harpring, and Kirilenko, I’d rather be defended by Kirilenko because I know I can get by him.”
Kirilenko seemed to cope a little better in the second half of this year, but still – why waste his shotblocking talent by moving him 18 feet from the basket on defense? He might alter a few outside shots in 1-on-1 defense, but it doesn’t come close to what he’s capable of doing under the basket, and the stats support it.
by YaoPau on
Jun 20, 2008 3:04 AM CDT
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I'm talking about one season, and in some lineups
Not moving Tyrus permanently to the 3
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 20, 2008 9:30 AM CDT
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ah, when Sam and I used to rub elbows
How does a sign-and-trade of Nocioni (with Duhon and the Knicks’ pick) to the Lakers for Odom sound to you? I don’t see the Lakers trying to get younger, but they may have soured on Odom. The Bulls might be able to steal a good power forward if another GM gets enamored with Nocioni’s style of play. —Ryan, ChicagoI think you overrate Nocioni. He’s a nice, tough, hustling player to have. But he’s rarely ever followed anyone’s defensive game plan and is limited on offense. If Phil Jackson thought Toni Kukoc was sloppy on defense, he’d certainly give up coaching after a season with Nocioni. Odom is a far, far greater talent. The Lakers are looking for a star to complement Kobe, not more kids and backups.
by hscs on Jun 19, 2008 11:57 AM CDT 0 recs
Hell No!!
Odom is a soft player plain and simple! Did you not see the Finals?! He may be the better player offensively, but defensively he dissapears. Noce plays harder and gives you more defence. The only Laker I wanna see in a Bulls uniform is Kobe.
by JohnnyKilroy on
Jun 19, 2008 12:02 PM CDT
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he'll be here for one year
so if he flames out in the finals again as a Bull…that’ll mean a pretty successful season.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 19, 2008 12:04 PM CDT
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Nocioni's soft.
Except for his unshaven stubble.
I consider flopping as your main tool a rather “weak” way to play defense.
by tyger1147 on
Jun 19, 2008 12:41 PM CDT
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He may have his problems
but he is not a soft player at all. He was the guy bashing posey in the Heat series
by JustAnotherFan on
Jun 21, 2008 6:01 PM CDT
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heh
Phil coaching Noc.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 19, 2008 12:05 PM CDT
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Noted.
If he’s here for one year, cool , but no longer than that. P.S. He’s still soft. 6’10 guys do not drive to the hoop for finesse finger rolls.
by JohnnyKilroy on Jun 19, 2008 12:11 PM CDT 0 recs
Ummmm
No way Lakers would ever trade Farmer. Pretty sure Zen master loves him. In fact, no1 in their right mind should ever trade Farmar. Sick backup now, and def future point guard. Just got sooooooo much experience too.
by Pax_4_Prez on Jun 19, 2008 12:13 PM CDT 0 recs
He'd have Hinrich and Fisher
for the next 3 seasons.
Technically the Bulls could do it without Farmar. But they do need any type of cheap backup PG. Maybe then deal Gooden for one of those plus a backup center.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 19, 2008 12:18 PM CDT
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Well there's the perfect spot for your personal fav, Duhon.
Here's to what was suppose to be the most exciting offseason in years, but has instead spiraled downward into pitiful morass of indecision. Cheers!
by wjb1492 on
Jun 19, 2008 12:33 PM CDT
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huh
Farmer’s game is weak. How does Phil love him? He’s the only other guy he can insert to give Fisher some rest.
Farmer breaks down on D. He doesn’t flow within the triangle. His demeanor appears as if he’s spent a lot of time fighting on the basketball court.
I’d rather have Duhon. I hate having to write that.
by NBA Observer on
Jun 19, 2008 3:11 PM CDT
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Is there something we're missing?
Do people really think Nocioni is this valuable? He is a worse/better version of Sasha Vujajic, and for a team looking to improve on defense that would only make them worse. The return of Bynum could only be a good thing for Odom, he will finally be able to play his real SF position and use his size as an advantage. Plus, Jordan Farmar is a future starting PG, aside form Kirk’s defense that would be a horrible trade for the Lakers.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 19, 2008 12:15 PM CDT 0 recs
Noc's defensive lapses
such as gambling for steals or being out of position off the ball are pretty well documented, but on the other hand, as an on-the-ball defender, he’s as physical as they come. And he doesn’t get intimidated, ever. He routinely rejects dunk attempts by opposing players, whether they are superstars or scrubs. And he doesn’t mind getting posterized trying to do this.
He also gets under the skin of opposing players by his hard-nosed play, something Phil Jackson utilized effectively with Rodman.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on
Jun 19, 2008 12:19 PM CDT
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and incredibly smart on the court
and being a physical on-the-ball defender as a slow SF likely just means you get called for a lot of fouls.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 19, 2008 12:23 PM CDT
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So is noce
the problem is the whole Bulls defense got lost last year. No one can play good defense alone. You can only go for the double, the block or the steal if the other will get your back….
by JustAnotherFan on
Jun 21, 2008 6:04 PM CDT
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Phil already has his token "piss off the opponent with gritty play" guy
And Rodman, along with his penchant for pissing people off, was one of the greatest rebounders in leauge history, and a multiple DPOY recipient. There’s a difference in having a guy like Bowen who is a pest and an All-Defensive guy, and a player like Nocioni who is just an asshole because he doesn’t have enough physical talent to matter otherwise.
by Ozzie Montana on
Jun 19, 2008 12:27 PM CDT
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I assume you mean Sasha...
Yeah, no one is saying that Noc is anywhere near Rodman level except in his fearlessness. Agreed, he’s slower, not a dominant rebounder, and not brilliant on the court. Just saying that he’s not some scrub playing at the local Y, and that assuming he gets playing time, Phil Jackson could employ his irritating defense effectively. And I think he would get playing time. Not a lot, maybe, but he could be the 2nd or 3rd guy off the bench for limited minutes.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on
Jun 19, 2008 12:30 PM CDT
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well Ford's selling this as Noc being the starting SF
They need one, and already have Radmanovic. So Noc wouldn’t be acquired to be a bench player. I think they can get a better starter for Odom.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 19, 2008 12:32 PM CDT
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Yeah this is why the trade makes no sense
I would think LA will be trying to acquire a guy like Shane Battier, hell maybe even sign James Posey if they can scrounge up the cap space.
by Ozzie Montana on
Jun 19, 2008 12:36 PM CDT
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Yeah, true,
the other trades would make a lot more sense for the Lakers.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on
Jun 19, 2008 12:41 PM CDT
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I don't think Farmar's that valuable
and he’s not better than Hinrich, who’d be a way better 6th man for the Lakers.
And Odom’s really a PF. really.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 19, 2008 12:19 PM CDT
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We disagree on Farmar
Maybe because he seems to be an aggressive PG for them, and Kirk has lost pretty much all of the driving tenacity he had the first few years in the league. If Kirk was still showing that same attack mentality, then sure I’d see Hinrich’s value for the Lakers. Although the thought of Kobe giving his death stares to Kirk after he picks up 2 fouls in the 1st quarter would be comical.
by Ozzie Montana on
Jun 19, 2008 12:25 PM CDT
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I think Kirk would
thrive in an environment with a superstar there. Maybe then the whole dribble behind the rim and to the other side of the court may result in a layup w/ all eyes on the star of the team.
...ha
by kingj41 on
Jun 19, 2008 12:27 PM CDT
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The Hinrich Maneuver?
Remembrance of my first post on Blogabull…..i like that move alot…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
by piccolomair on
Jun 19, 2008 12:53 PM CDT
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Wasn't the rumor last
fall that Kobe didn’t want to come ot Chicago if Kirk was there? If that was the case he won’t want him on the team in LA.
by sue369 on
Jun 19, 2008 1:38 PM CDT
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I never heard that
Didn’t they play on the national team together, or did Kobe come on after Kirk dropped out?
by Ozzie Montana on
Jun 19, 2008 1:55 PM CDT
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the only
reason kirk gets called for those fouls is because of the team hes on. i agree with ur point of him doing real well with a superstar next to him. plus kirk can scratch off gaurding kobe off his list if they become teammates. i mean kirk does gamble a lot on defense, but thats how he plays. the refs call stuff more on him because hes not a star and hes not playing with a star. i mean the last game of the finals where rondo reached in a couple of times and made a few staels, if that was kirk i garuntee fouls will come with it. but thats wat the game is nowadays.
All this Hinrich hate, is making me like him more...
by Yibs on
Jun 19, 2008 2:14 PM CDT
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bullhockey gets most of it right
Vujacic? Nocioni has 40 pounds and two inches on him. Vujacic is a spot of shooter that rarely attacks the rim. He gets into trouble whenever he puts the ball down for a dribble.
I look at Noc’s defense the way AI plays defense. They are playmaking defenders that are inconsistent within a team defense. AI gets the steals. Noc gets those awesome blocks. Most of the time AI is cheating in lanes and collects nothing. Most of the time Noc is looking to make a playmaking block but ends up in a poster.
Noc will make a few plays that are crazy good. It’s been enough to get him attention around the league. Beyond the US shores he’s known as the guy that posterized KG in the 2000 World Championship.
by NBA Observer on
Jun 19, 2008 3:17 PM CDT
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Vujacic
Is also a much bigger chucker then noch….THATS SAYING ALOT!!!
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
by piccolomair on
Jun 19, 2008 3:32 PM CDT
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Odom is a 4
His advantage is greater having 4’s guard him where he can face them up and make plays away from the basket. As a 3, he can’t use his size advantage much, becasue Gasol and Bynum will already be near the basket. He’s big enough to guard 4’s on defense, and he rebounds well, so they’re better on offense with him being able to space the floor and have one of the other teams bigs chase him out to the perimeter.
This isn’t the NBA from 10 years ago where you go size over skill & speed. The advantage with the newer rules is generally skill & speed over size. If you’re big enough to guard a certain position and rebound with them, then you want to maximize your skill and speed advantage to space the floor and give guys room to penetrate.
And I think Farmar is going to be a top 10 point guard. He’s only 21 I think… a year or 2 older than Rose. Playing in the triangle and having Kobe dominate the ball, he doesn’t really get to showcase how good he is or is going to be.
by rb22 on
Jun 19, 2008 3:40 PM CDT
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Farmar is a top ten point guard....
if he was still in college
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
by YEP on
Jun 19, 2008 3:46 PM CDT
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Sasha was one of the disappearing cry babies on the finals...
I don’t see Noce doing that. Phil likes scrubs that hustle. The Bulls were full of them back in the day, remember/
by iBurkey on
Jun 19, 2008 9:20 PM CDT
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I love this trade,
because the Bulls need more scoring from the 4, and as we’ve all been over before, Noc’s contract is not good.
In Odom’s last year with Miami, I saw the Bulls play the Heat. Odom was a force down low that game, so he definitely can play down there. He can also play the 3 to spell Deng.
If it doesn’t work out then then it’s only a one-year audition, and the salary comes off the books.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Jun 19, 2008 12:15 PM CDT 0 recs
I'm not high on Odom as a Bull, too likely he only further blocks Tyrus
The Lakers likely desire to move Odom would be a good opportunity for Paxson to facilitate a multi-team trade. Using the Trade Machine, BYC. Anyways, this is what I had.
Bulls get Rasho and Farmar (Back up C with and expiring contract and a cheap, young back up PG)
Raptors get Odom, Radmonovic, and Simmons (One year rental on Odom for getting out of Ford’s contract)
Magic get Ford and Baston (Improvement at PG)
Lakers get Turkoglu, Hinrich, Redick, and Garbajosa (Perimeter shooting SF, nice complementary PG for Kobe, and Phil gets yet another white SG who can nail 3’s and do nothing else)
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Jun 19, 2008 12:17 PM CDT 0 recs
Garbajosa just got bought out.
I don’t think the Raptors get enough either. Radmanovic’s deal is almost as bad as Fords.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 19, 2008 12:21 PM CDT
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I included Garbajosa and Rad only to make the money work
If Ford’s not treated as a BYC player, then they probably wouldn’t need to be included anyways. So, taking back only Odom and Simmons makes things more palatable. It’s not like the Raptors would be giving up all that much either. Between the emergence of Calderon and the issue with his neck, Ford’s fantastic but has little trade value.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on
Jun 19, 2008 12:33 PM CDT
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Wasn't Turkoglu the engine of that Magic team last season?
On the other hand, it’s hard to argue that his value could only go down from here, as last year was something of an aberration both statistically and in terms of his clutch-ness.
Still, I have trouble thinking that the Magic would trade a guy who was so instrumental in turning that franchise around.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on
Jun 19, 2008 12:22 PM CDT
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I think they'd be smart to sell high
but they could also get a real PF and move Lewis to the SF, and Turkoglu to 6th man.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 19, 2008 12:24 PM CDT
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There was talk
right after they got elimated from the playoffs about selling high on Turkoglu.
by kingj41 on
Jun 19, 2008 12:25 PM CDT
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Very interesting. I'd missed that...
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on
Jun 19, 2008 12:26 PM CDT
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I don't have a link to it.
But the same point was made about him being able to reproduce such a season.
by kingj41 on
Jun 19, 2008 12:28 PM CDT
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Does Matt's post help you?
It helped me. Odom plays the 4, Thomas the 3, but on D they switch.
by NBA Observer on
Jun 19, 2008 3:24 PM CDT
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it wouldn't be perfect
but don’t dismiss the possibility of it then allowing the Bulls to trade Gooden for a backup C and PG. I like seeing Tyrus get minutes, but as long as he’s in the frontcourt rotation I don’t mind someone as good as Odom getting some burn too.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 19, 2008 3:46 PM CDT
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Odom's not enough of an upgrade to cut into Tyrus's entitlement minutes
He’d barely be an upgrade over Gooden. Obviously he’s got a different skill set that the team could use, but this season should be first and foremost dedicated to seeing how the new core fit together.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on
Jun 19, 2008 4:26 PM CDT
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We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on
Jun 19, 2008 4:27 PM CDT
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I'd take this deal.
I don’t like “blocking” Thomas, but Odom is better. And he’d likely be the second-best ball-handler on the court.
by tyger1147 on Jun 19, 2008 12:50 PM CDT 0 recs
that's a good point
blocking is only an issue if the player isn’t demonstrably better.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 19, 2008 12:53 PM CDT
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Of course, if Thibs does come here
he’ll probably have it in his contract that Tyrus starts at pf.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
Jun 19, 2008 1:03 PM CDT
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At least this is the kind of mentoring I could get behind
Not that I would think Odom would try and tutor Thomas, but at least Tyrus could see how a big guy can have nice handles, hell even Noah could take some tips on that as well.
by Ozzie Montana on
Jun 19, 2008 1:03 PM CDT
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Thomas as okay handles.
Not like Odom, but I’d say his face-the-basket dribbling is at least average for a PF.
by tyger1147 on
Jun 19, 2008 1:07 PM CDT
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NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
Odom is garbage!!!!! Soft as tissue….he disappears on both ends of the floor….plz Pax dont consider this trade!!!!!(like he actually reads BaB)
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
by YEP on Jun 19, 2008 1:09 PM CDT 0 recs
You're right,
Nocioni is sooo much tougher than Odom. Good Point. Yep
"I'm a Bulls fan," -Barack Obama
by Goostafer on
Jun 19, 2008 1:11 PM CDT
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Jimmy Kimmel had him on a video feed
before one of the finals games.
Kimmel asked Obama if he was for the Celtics or the Lakers. Obama responded with Goostafer’s sig.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
Jun 19, 2008 1:16 PM CDT
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Yea, I'm hoping
for more than just “Bulls’ coach” for him.
"I'm a Bulls fan," -Barack Obama
by Goostafer on
Jun 19, 2008 2:10 PM CDT
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That's dumb
Maybe if we were a favorite to make the NBA finals we could worry about who’s “soft.” But where we are right now we just need talent wherever we can get it (as long as the talent won’t corrupt/hurt development of the young guys). Odom is very talented, doesn’t seem like a head case, and if he doesn’t work out then we just trade his expiring deal or let him go. Simple.
Unfortunately, I don’t see a deal that could really please the Lakers here. Nocioni’s not enough… it would have to be Noc + at least Hinrich, with us maybe taking back a bad salary… not sure who that would be though.
by potato0328 on
Jun 19, 2008 1:41 PM CDT
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ARE U SERIOUS!!!!!
If we trade Hinrich we have to get more than LAMAR funkin Odom!!!!! Did u see the playoffs?????He had one good quarter i think he scored 12 points in the first quarter of Game 4 at that point i was like watch he only end with 16…he ended with 19!!!! We dont need a 6’11 point forward if we draft Rose…and he’ll get in the way of Tyrus’s development….i’ll rather keep what we have than trade for this BUM!!!!
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
by YEP on
Jun 19, 2008 1:51 PM CDT
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Funny how most of us think Odom should get more than Kirk Hinrich
The Lakers lack interior defense, they already have a strong defensive-minded above average PG in Derek Fisher. We would be getting the better end of that deal. And Odom would be used to clear cap space.
by Ozzie Montana on
Jun 19, 2008 2:00 PM CDT
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Not me
Odom is uninterested in basketball. You can tell by his body language that he doesn’t care. I hate Noce’s contract, but at least he cares. I’d rather have Noce. (slow clap for Noce) That said, Odom will have a good season next year because its a contract year, then he will put it on cruise control.
Also, Kirk would be an excellent fit next to Kobe – stop the Kirk hating. Kirk is 27 while Fisher is 33. Odom’s cap space is the only thing attractive about him. I agree with YEP
by Jesse07 on
Jun 19, 2008 2:11 PM CDT
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Rumor last fall
was that Kobe didn’t want Kirk on his team.
by sue369 on
Jun 19, 2008 2:31 PM CDT
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now that you've said it twice
I’d like some kind of confirmation.
I remember Kobe calling shots on who he did want to remain a Bull post-trade. Namely Deng and Wallace (heh). The absence of adding Hinrich to that list isn’t the same as refusing to play with him.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 19, 2008 2:34 PM CDT
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