BlogABull roster evaluation: take two
(Here is take one, although this isn't meant to use a similar format or anything...)
With Derrick Rose (or Beasley, of course) coming into the fold, it truly changes the dynamic of how this roster will be assessed.
Rose will be 20 years old by the time the season starts, and I think age is both an easy and useful way to group the roster once you get beyond the castoffs and contract filler (Duhon, Simmons, Brown, Nichols, Curry...maybe Gray):
Tyrus Thomas: 22
Luol Deng: 23
Joakim Noah: 23
Aaron Gray: 23
Thabo Sefolosha: 24
Ben Gordon: 25
<<<great chasm of age and shame>>>
Drew Gooden: 27
Kirk Hinrich: 27
Andres Nocioni: 28
Larry Hughes: 29
Separating the roster that way is biased and somewhat arbitrary, but it also coincides with the general consensus of when NBA players are either before or at their prime.
I'm not suggesting that Aaron Gray is more valuable than Drew Gooden because he's younger. However I do think that Paxson needs to think in terms of age relative to Rose (or Beasley, of course!). Merely adding a top-flight talent to the roster (and a coach that doesn't hate that roster) will work wonders, but the goal is to get a championship contender together when Rose (or....forget it: Rose.) is ready to lead them to that title. The old idea of 'the core' should be gone, with a new one forged from that first group of players, yet to hit their prime.
That long-term outlook can be tied into the more immediate goal of eliminating some roster glut, a problem that existed even before the lottery was won. I'm not suggesting getting rid of everyone at their prime (pretty nice to have nobody past it, I must say) for picks and cap space. This team is young enough already and teams do need veterans. But when Paxson is, smartly, exploring a trade to consolidate talent, those in the second group should be the ones moved, even if it's only to free up roster space, salary, and minutes. The Bulls can take in-prime talent back, as long as it's a result of fewer bodies with fewer contract years.
As always, if it's a deal for an upgrade, those yet to have hit their prime are then also in play (starting with Gray and Thabo, and work up from there). But beyond picking the right guy (Rose!) at #1, Paxson has work to do with this roster. There's too many players who need minutes and money. And as a side benefit, any shuffling of the deck further distances the franchise from last season.
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"The Bulls can take in-prime talent back, as long as it's a result of fewer bodies with fewer contract years."
Yes, as long as we have the cap space in 2010 to make a decent run at an historic unrestricted free agent class.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Jun 16, 2008 11:40 PM CDT 0 recs
This seems to favor the 'Trade Hinrich' camp...
and I definitely don’t mind that.
I would love to trade Hughes for literally nothing – I’m not sure what team if any would actually take him (cross your fingers…maybe the Knicks – Isaiah would’ve taken him).
by swede2287 on Jun 16, 2008 11:44 PM CDT 0 recs
What are the cap rules if we buy out his contract?
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on
Jun 16, 2008 11:49 PM CDT
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I have no idea.
It’s worth looking into though. I liked when the Blazers bought out Steve Francis – they had a #1 pick and a young team and they didn’t want Stevie Franchise anywhere near them. I’d like to cast off Hughes like they did. But I don’t know how the numbers would work.
by swede2287 on
Jun 16, 2008 11:55 PM CDT
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How a Larry Hughes buy-out would affect the cap:
As per this website, a buy-out counts against the cap in the same proportion and for the same number of years as the salary does. So it would all depend on the agreed amount of the buy-out. Larry will have two years left on his contract, next season and the year after that, valued at $12.8M and $13.7M respectively, for a total compensation of $26.5M. In percentages, he’ll get 48.3% of his expected salary the first year and 51.7% of his expected salary the second year. Whatever the amount of his buy-out, those same fractions of the total will count against the cap over the two years he would have been on our payroll. That means that if we buy him out for the full amount, the effect on our cap would be exactly the same as if he were on our roster. If he agrees to less money, however (which is customary with buy-outs, I think), we would be lessening his impact on the cap. For instance, if the agreed buy-out was for $18M, 48.3% of that (or $8.7M) would still be on our cap the first year, and 51.7% (or 9.3M) would be on our cap the next. At least that’s the way I read it.
This, of course, assumes that Larry’s salary is fully guaranteed. I did a little bit of searching but couldn’t find any details on the extent to which Larry’s salary is NOT guaranteed. It is possible that his salary is only guaranteed for injury and illness and not for “lack of skill,” or it might be guaranteed at a percentage of the total. If only part of his salary were guaranteed, it might be better simply to waive him.
by arjoseph on
Jun 18, 2008 5:43 PM CDT
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i'd
like to see a hughes & thomas for zach randolph scenario… i’m sure d’antoni wants to unload 1 or his 2 lumbering big men. it makes the knicks quicker, and it clears space in the backcourt for the bulls, and gives the bulls another legitimate post scoring option. although it also gives them a nice new carcinogen to deal with.
by leeac on
Jun 17, 2008 12:13 AM CDT
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sorry i couldn't stomach Z-BO
even if we got rid of Hughes.
And Thomas is the child BaB never had, so I wouldn’t suggest him in trade talk (unless its for a superstar).
Z-BO is a cancer and shouldn’t touch our young team.
by swede2287 on
Jun 17, 2008 12:17 AM CDT
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That's one trade where we get worse
We’d be better off keeping Hughes and his 2010 expiring contract. Randolph would add more years, more salary, and more headaches. Putting his character around Thomas, Rose, and Noah would pollute the locker room as well.
We should want no part of Zach Randolph except as an intermediary passthrough device to facilitate a trade to another team.
by NBA Observer on
Jun 17, 2008 9:01 AM CDT
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NO TO DAT DEAL!!!!
Tryus will be better off with a point guard that can break down a defense
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
by YEP on
Jun 17, 2008 9:04 AM CDT
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yah
funk dat.
Step 1 - Win lottery. Step 2 - Hire a coach. Step 3 - Win.
by Lt.Dan on
Jun 17, 2008 5:31 PM CDT
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PS: Randolph and crew reportedly destroyed a nightclub
last month in Portland.
Randolph unique skillset will still attract suitors. I just don’t know if there are enough Isiah Thomas’ in the NBA anymore.
by NBA Observer on
Jun 17, 2008 9:34 AM CDT
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Zach Randolph just got in a fight in Portland....with gang members
Yes, that’s the veteran leadership we are all about!
Seriously, if a team thinks a 20/10 guy is that detrimental to team success that they trade him for a mediocre role player (Frye), and another player they just intended to buy out (Francis), I don’t think the Bulls should ever in a 10000 years consider acquiring Zach Randolph.
by Ozzie Montana on
Jun 17, 2008 9:45 AM CDT
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Yeah, Zach Randolph is a stud
That’s why the Bucks GM was fired for even trying to acquire him.
by Ozzie Montana on
Jun 17, 2008 1:50 PM CDT
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To be fair...
Portland also got a trade exception from sending three guys (Fred Jones being the third guy) for only two guys. That was a key part of the deal, as that trade exception + $3M was used to get James Jones and Rudy Fernandez for free.
But yeah, the Randolph and Dickau for Frye part is pretty extreme. Randolph has no trade value right now since he’s overpaid (with three more years on his contract) with the “cancer” label. Add in the negative intangibles from his (lack of) defense…
by poster on
Jun 17, 2008 2:49 PM CDT
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for a buyout
the player’s contract still sits on the cap, it just frees up the roster spot
by carlirvington on
Jun 17, 2008 8:23 AM CDT
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That's interesting that you attributed value with age...
at least for the most part. I hadn’t thought of it like that – but it makes sense.
I appreciate that Duhon is considered the castoff and not a part of the equation.
I’m guessing you believe it would be smart to sign both Gordon and Deng and sign-and-trades aren’t likely.
Of the “veterans”, I’d most want to hold onto Gooden and maybe Noc.
I’m a huge fan of us building a title contender – through running a tight budget and saving money where we can. The model franchises aka Spurs have shown the importance of managing the salary cap and being efficient.
It will be interesting to see how Pax plays this.
by swede2287 on Jun 17, 2008 12:03 AM CDT 0 recs
Sure...
But that Model franchise also has Tim Duncan, maybe the best power forward ever.
Pretty easy to build around that, especially when they got role player guys like Finley (who had previously been bought out for major dollars) for veteran’s minimum because he wanted to win a title.
It’skind of which came first, the chicken or the egg scenario. Win games and decent role players will come for less if they think they’ll win a ring. Also having a legit big man superstar always helps.
Wasn’t that how the dynasty Bulls kind of did it too? Although they didn’t have the burden of a salary cap I think.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on
Jun 17, 2008 12:32 AM CDT
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That's all true.
But they are a model franchise for running an NBA franchise and dealing with the salary cap. That’s all I said – don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone argue that.
The Bulls will soon have their player to build around – Rose. They now need to clean up salary situations so we can put the right, young pieces to hopefully build a title contender.
by swede2287 on
Jun 17, 2008 12:46 AM CDT
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I think it's also great
to see these players grouped by age. When they eventually decide that they will not get the value they would want for the number one pick in a trade and then use that pick to sign Rose or Beasley, they will realize that whether they like it or not they will be rebuilding(they probably already have all this figured out). Because the new focal point of the franchise will not be ready to contend for anything except for maybe a first round playoff exit. So it is VITAL that they put good, young, hopefully hard working players around him that can grow into something special. And echoing what has been said, minutes are almost as important as talent. You need to be able to play these young guys (right Jim Boylan?) and develop them and not be pressured into playing veterans just cause they’re making money and have a track record. And to respond to something that was posted elsewhere on this page, under NO CIRCUMSTANCE should they go after Zach Randolph! Randolph is the poster child for the type of player that we don’t need and need to avoid like the plague. The minute that Portland got the first pick they were trying to figure out a way to get him as far away from Greg Oden as possible.
by Juiceboxjerry on
Jun 17, 2008 2:00 AM CDT
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i
would argue that a player like gooden is non-expendable at this time with this team and with this potential future core, unless, of course, the bulls find themselves well out of playoff contention near the end of next season, or another team dangles a more productive 4 in return (unlikely). gooden is the closest thing the bulls have to a post ‘presence’, and he is a solid, if unspectacular, 4 who can log productive minutes at the 5. if your idea of the future #1 options at PF and C are thomas and noah, the bulls will need almost continual insurance at those spots as these two have not proven that they can string together a few good games, let alone be consistently productive over the course of a season (understanding noah was in his first season).
i’m not in disagreement with your analysis for a future core, but i don’t think gooden is as expendable as people seem to think he is. he’ll be in the last year of his contract, but if the bulls smell playoffs, the bulls would be remiss to move him to free up roster space, salary or minutes.
by leeac on Jun 17, 2008 12:09 AM CDT 0 recs
yes
solid but unspectacular.
adding a Derrick Rose might make his game look much better.
his contract is very movable, however.
he’s a legit pro on the low post—our ONLY legit pro on the low post.
Pax would be remiss to deal him.
by Orlando Woolridge on
Jun 17, 2008 1:05 AM CDT
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That's like saying Paxson would have been remiss to deal Joe Smith
last season. Gooden’s can be a decent player, but there’s a reason Cleveland traded him. Just because Gooden has a post move or two doesn’t mean he should be posting up regularly either. He’s one of the most valuable trading chips and doesn’t fit the long term picture. There’s no reason to hold on to him if Paxson can get something in return and move longterm contracts.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on
Jun 17, 2008 2:00 AM CDT
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Gooden is 27, Joe Smith is 33.
That age gap alone makes that comparison tough. I completely agree with leeac & Woolridge- Gooden is a solid guy to have on the roster right now and I think we’ll have a hard time moving him for something better. Besides, him having “a post move or two” means he has 2 more post moves than the rest of the roster.
by smash! on
Jun 17, 2008 7:07 AM CDT
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He's also on expiring deal, which means if your going to waste
this year on feeding Gooden in the post then he has to be resigned. We’re right back to the Boylan era then. There seems to be this confusion here that post scoring is automatically this wonderfully efficient method of scoring. It’s not, especially when it’s a third tier post player like Gooden. Did Boylan posting Gooden actually make the team better on offense? I haven’t seen any evidence of that.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on
Jun 17, 2008 11:57 AM CDT
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In fact, I don't think Gooden's that good'n the post.
I saw him fumble the ball away at the rim way too many times.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
Jun 17, 2008 12:00 PM CDT
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Good point
He isnt good at all 3rd tier is about right I wouldnt even have him in the top 25 in the post
by TRiCioNeRo on
Jun 17, 2008 12:56 PM CDT
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I like your arrangement.
If, as you say, the guys in the second group are the ones you want to move, that also helps you define your market/trading partner, namely, any team that thinks it’s ready to win right now.
A "win now" team will want in-prime talent that’s playing right now at its peak. For that talent, they will be more willing to trade away a talented but not yet fully developed player…OR an older, past his prime player that the Bulls could turn into a year-end salary dump.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 17, 2008 12:44 AM CDT 0 recs
I'd guess the latter's more likely
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 17, 2008 8:43 AM CDT
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In the very first Rose-Beasley thread
I made a comment about how in drafting Rose we need to recognize that our window for a Championship will be “pushed back” a few years, and that all personnel decisions will now need to reflect the revised window of opportunity. Needless to say, I agree with Matt on his similar point, although I disagree about the approximate prime years of an NBA player and I would not hesitate to retain a 27- or 28-year old player who might be 30 or 31 when our window of opportunity would “open”. (Don’t take this to mean that I want to retain Gooden, Kirk, or Noce – I want them gone, but not because of their age).
I have an Excel file that includes a graphical representation of the Bulls depth chart, with ages and projected level of performance, as well as salary data, that I’d be interested in uploading and sharing if I could figure out how that stuff works. The graphic is nearly identical to the Tufte-like infographics that Nate Silver has used to analyze baseball franchises over at Baseball Prospectus. I put it together when I couldn’t sleep on the night of July 3, 2006, after the Ben Wallace signing was announced, and I’ve maintained it ever since. (Hopefully the excitement generated from the Derrick Rose selection will be better served than the Wallace nightmare!).
If someone can point me in the right direction regarding the file uploading/embedding, I’ll try to post it in a Fanpost at some point. Thanks.
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by Jivas on Jun 17, 2008 3:36 AM CDT 0 recs
I wouldn't say I'm hesitant to keep a player that age
just that they shouldn’t be hesitant to deal a player that age.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 17, 2008 8:44 AM CDT
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Ever used Google spreadsheets?
You can make those files publicly available. I don’t think everything is compatible with Excel, especially charts. However, there is also the Microsoft Office Live website that reportedly does allow you share Excel files, full file details and all, with the public.
by NBA Observer on
Jun 17, 2008 9:05 AM CDT
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Thanks, NBAO
I’ll have to look into it sometime. Between work and two separate vacations the next couple of weeks, I’m not sure I’ll have the chance to do this. HOWEVA, it’s really something that is germane at any point during the offseason, so I suppose posting the graphic after all offseason moves wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world.
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by Jivas on
Jun 17, 2008 10:35 AM CDT
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Sad to admit
But Noce needs a change of address. I love his hustle but soured on him last year as his offensive game was very selfish with a shoot-first attitude. Gooden was as advertised: A couple of great games followed by one where he disappeared. But I think he can help the Bulls and improve his game with a strong point guard (Rose) leading the way.
by chetwalkerssweatsocks on Jun 17, 2008 6:27 AM CDT 0 recs
Agree
He’s the most likely to be traded this summer in my mind. Unless Pax can get a legit big man for Hinrich and Gooden, I don’t think either of them goes anywhere. Hughes’ contract keeps him in the fold, unfortunately. That leaves Noce. In my opinion, he won’t be a better backup option than Thabo at the 3, and he won’t be a better backup option than Gooden at 4.
You guys think we can get Elton Brand for Noce and the trade exemption?
by Ceasaleo on
Jun 17, 2008 8:29 AM CDT
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think it doesn't work
can’t combine the trade exception for a player…and that trade sucks for the Clippers.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 17, 2008 8:45 AM CDT
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I think Noch...
will play better depending on how Vinny coaches him…everybody played selfish under Boylan
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
by YEP on
Jun 17, 2008 9:08 AM CDT
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Get Miami involved
They want Brand. I really don’t want him on the Bulls. But the Heat could also be interested in Hinrich and Nocioni. If Brand is moving, say to the Heat, would the Clips have interest in Hinrich AND Nocioni.
I don’t know who we get back in these scenarios. I like to start spec trades with the player I want to acquire rather than the player I want to move.
by NBA Observer on
Jun 17, 2008 9:24 AM CDT
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i was going to say
who would we get back in that scenario?
miami = blech
by Jaina on
Jun 17, 2008 9:25 AM CDT
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Bulls
Bulls get Maggette, Shawn Livingston’s knee caps and (Miami) Daequan Cook (outside shot SG).
Heat get Hinrich, Brand
Clippers get Jason Williams, Noc, either or a combination of Ricky Davis(expiring), Udonis Haslem or Shawn Marion (and he can choose to opt out)
by exult463 on
Jun 17, 2008 5:58 PM CDT
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Any trade we make has to be an upgrade trade
You want to trade two players for three? We don’t need to stockpile MORE talent. We need to convert some of our somewhat-valuable guys into a smaller quantity of more-valuable guys. I think our best bet will be a two-for-one or a three-for-two to get very quality starter-level people (i.e., in any deal involving Brand, WE WANT BRAND, not the other scraps the Clips want to unload).
by arjoseph on
Jun 18, 2008 6:22 PM CDT
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agreed
in dat trade we add two more guards minus kirk…we dont need more guards we need to get rid of two prolly…my ideal trade for brand is kirk and Gooden next yrs first that might not be enuff but who knows?
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
by YEP on
Jun 19, 2008 10:21 AM CDT
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I like the idea
but in practice it doesn’t work so well. Just because certain players have not yet hit their ‘prime’ doesn’t mean anything spectacular is going to happen once they do.
e.g. Ben Gordon will still be way undersized for his position two years from now. I guess you could say that he could work on his handles and his defense but if he doesn’t have them by now, he never will. As much fun as he is to watch (when hes taking good shots), hes just as painful to watch when hes taking bad shots.
Aaron Gray has always been big and slow; that was his game in college. Joakim Noah has always been a hustle player, and thats what we drafted him for.
Everyone seems to be down on this roster because of this past season, but I think its a huge overreaction. We had contract trouble with both “star” players before the season started, trade rumors involving just about the entire team as the season got going, one coach who decided trashing his team was better than coaching them, and another coach who had no clue what he was doing. Throw in all the hissy-fits with players, and the fact that we had two of the most overpaid players in the league on our team (Wallace/Hughes), and I’m surprised we won 33 games.
No matter who we draft (Rose or Beasley), if the team does well next year, it will be because of a fresh start for these same players who had us thinking about making it to the finals a year ago.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 17, 2008 6:35 AM CDT 0 recs
This illustrates the true new core
which most of us here at BaB already figured to include Ty, Thabo, and Noah. Aaron Gray can take his ball and go home, though.
What the roster also illustrates is that you likely have your starting five in place with Rose, Thabo, Deng, Ty, and Noah. And while I’d love to see a deal involving a package of Hinrich and Gooden, I think you’re going to have to deal one from the new core on top of this to avoid further exacerbating the existing issue of a roster glut. So I think the Bulls will have to use the second tier of older players in combination with one of the young core in order to upgrade that starting five. Something like a Hinrich, Deng, and Gooden for a Carmelo Anthony would address this by replacing Deng with a much better 24-year old SF and actually freeing up some playing time for others on the roster.
by messwiththebull on Jun 17, 2008 9:21 AM CDT 0 recs
well, that's an upgrade deal
I’d say at least start with a package of Hinrich and Gooden just to get one player back.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 17, 2008 9:26 AM CDT
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Agreed
I’d take greater cap relief than Gooden alone would provide in return for those two guys. The key is to limit the amount of bodies received in return, or if there will be a potential for duplicity, make it a upgrade without sacrificing youth.
by messwiththebull on
Jun 17, 2008 9:33 AM CDT
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I agree that we'll probably *have* to trade of the premium core players
As much as I don’t want to. We all have a great talent of making realistic-sounding trade offers that include some combination of our secondary players for something of great value. However, most NBA teams are far too savvy for such a deal, and will insist on one of the premium players to be included if anything of real value was to be provided in the deal.
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by Jivas on
Jun 17, 2008 10:39 AM CDT
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Would it be productive to add to this post
a list or an invitation of debate in terms of what positions or players we would want to add to the Bulls roster?
We could discuss moving existing players all day and still be at the same start point. What we need to add to the discussion is the players or positions we want to acquire.
At what position are we strong? At what position are we weak? What kind of player do we want coming off the bench? Do we want scoring? What kind of scoring? Outside shooters? Cutters? Do we want defense? Do we want rebounding?
I think there are clubs that need a starting point guard in Hinrich and would give up some of their stronger bench production and future picks/fillers to get him. I also think there are clubs that will give up a starter that has the future starter already on their bench in order to shore up their bench by acquiring Nocioni.
I think our biggest need, moving beyond the draft where we select Rose, is the front court at PF and Center. I think we have our starters in Thomas and Noah, but after that it is Drew Gooden and Aaron Gray. Two players that interest me are Pryzbilla and Chris Wilcox.
If snley reads this, there are ways we can use the #1 overall pick to arrange the lottery selections to our favor. There are lottery teams that have real needs that cannot be met with selections in this draft. The club might just take the best player available anyway, but we can speculate with our #1 pick on who we might select as a way of moving Beasley down the board, other players up the board, so that another team acquires a player at a position they already have an existing player so to make that player more likely to be traded.
For example, if you can engineer a move of Beasley down to #4 then the Sonics select him and Wilcox becomes trade material. If you move one player down then other players move up. Memphis at #5 has many needs. One of their biggest needs is a bench. Chapu to Memphis for ??? It’s a contract dump. Want Brian Cardinal?
These are speculative moves. My theme here is get us talking about major moves between multiple teams as a way of using the #1 overall pick, and our 1.7 percent luck of certainty, into a 1.7 chance at advancing to the 2nd round of the 08-09 postseason.
by NBA Observer on Jun 17, 2008 9:21 AM CDT 0 recs
I don't think they need much
just an opportunity to play often and together. That’s why I’m not that hung up on what we get back, as long as Hinrich/Gooden/Noc/Hughes are moved for fewer bodies and contract years. As opposed to an obsession with finding the right mid-level big man.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 17, 2008 9:28 AM CDT
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Agreed.
Anything positive* they can get from that older tier is what they should go for. For those guys, Paxson shouldn’t be looking to “win” trades, only to position the team better for the future.
*positive = less years, younger/more potential, draft picks, more harmonious personalities, etc.
by tyger1147 on
Jun 17, 2008 9:32 AM CDT
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Tell me one reasonable scenario how the Bulls "engineer" moving Beasley down the board.
Until you do that, you’re bordering on ridiculous. People have called you out, and you’ve yet to say how the Bulls can actually accomplish this. Unless it’s shown as reasonably possible, then to answer your first question: “No. It’s not productive to do that.”
by tyger1147 on
Jun 17, 2008 9:28 AM CDT
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OTOH, I do like the idea of getting into more concrete trade ideas.
cranscape and I got into this a few days ago. It’s one thing to just speculate everything on theory, but let’s also talk about some “real”, reasonably possible, concrete, etc. ideas that could actually happen.
by tyger1147 on
Jun 17, 2008 9:30 AM CDT
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Once tyger calls you out and
decides you are not allowed to speculate like everyone else does here you are pretty much screwed. I wouldn’t bother with him unless you got a copy of Tyger’s Guide to Posting in easy reach.
by cranscape on
Jun 17, 2008 10:27 AM CDT
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Wow. I didn't think we had a disagreement like that.
I guess we’re not allowed to disagree on this site at all anymore, for fear of someone’s feelings getting hurt. Speculation is obviously fine, but I’d like to at least have a practical idea of what someone actually means.
But if you want to jump on the NBAO bandwagon, by all means….
by tyger1147 on
Jun 17, 2008 10:36 AM CDT
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Can you name the trades from last season that were practical?
Please tell me you think Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittendon, Aaron McKey, and picks for Gasol was a practical, reasonably concrete trade proposal that was executed.
Nobody knows how deals will shake out. Variables are in play that lead to poor decisions, rushed decisions, and desperate money saving decisions.
Ben Wallace and Ben Gordon for Amare Stoudamire and Raja Bell wasn’t happening. But Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks for Shaq did.
by NBA Observer on
Jun 17, 2008 10:40 AM CDT
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Well, give me something, though.
Don’t just say: the Bulls should influence the rest of the draft w/ their deceptiveness. At least give an example how. It took you like 30 comments (previous and here) to at least come up w/ something.
by tyger1147 on
Jun 17, 2008 10:53 AM CDT
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for example...
saying: “The Lakers should trade for a star-like big man to replace Bynum, but they shouldn’t give up anything” is one thing. And it’s a stupid thing. Saying, however: “The Lakers might be able to trade for Gasol on the cheap if they can play the cap situation right” is something completely different.
Maybe I’m arguing semantics and am the only one seeing things like this. The former is pretty much “un-discussable” because of its vagueness. The latter can, at least, be discussed in some manner.
by tyger1147 on
Jun 17, 2008 10:57 AM CDT
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agreed.
I haven’t been following this little post battle very closely, but I agree with this…
by kidronmusic on
Jun 17, 2008 11:03 AM CDT
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Based on past
shrewdness (or lack of it) from the Bulls it is likely any team but us could orchestrate something like that. Though with VDN’s GM experience perhaps Pax’s lack of deal making will be offset a bit.
The statement above is all speculation. I claim no concreteness nor have the ability to back it up with insider information.
by cranscape on
Jun 17, 2008 10:59 AM CDT
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Can you clarify your example?
I don’t see how, by announcing they’re going to draft Rose, the Bulls could possibly manipulate where Beasley is drafted behind them. Or are you suggesting the Bulls draft Beasley only to deal him to Seattle for the #4 and Wilcox?
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on
Jun 17, 2008 9:29 AM CDT
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we must all wait
for NBAO to actually ‘see’ the trade before it happens first. Then he’ll come down from the mountaintop and let us all know.
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jun 17, 2008 9:33 AM CDT
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Bring me a virgin
and not one of those “recertified virgins”.
;)
by NBA Observer on
Jun 17, 2008 9:53 AM CDT
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Heat getting Mayo
Riley won’t draft Beasley to play for the Miami Heat. He may select him, but for another club. Beasley doesn’t fit the Riley profile. He prefers bigs that he can dump it into the post in a half court set that won’t give nullify every make with a giveaway bucket at the other end. Beasley’s D will take away whatever he gives you.
Riley does like Brand who is also a little undersized in terms of height, but Brand is wide and offensive player do not move around him to get to the rim with ease. If they score on Brand it’s by hitting jumpers or running moves, but predominantly via lower percentage shot attempts.
Moving down the board. If Miami isn’t drafting Beasley to play for the Heat, for whom is he drafting him? You have to ask who wants Beasley? Wolves at #3? Sonics certainly at #4. Memphis definitely at #5.
Are the Wolves going to take in Beasley when Kevin McHale spent an entire season of moves to build around Al Jefferson? Does he want another offensive power forward that will yield whatever he produces? McHale isn’t drafting Beasley to play for the Wolves. Back in the Riley saddle. Does he let Beasley slide and just take the player that the Wolves actually need in Brook Lopez? Could he take Bayless and add yet another combo guard to a roster that already has 4 of them? The Wolves could use a PG that can shoot the three merely as a decoy to dump it into low post beast Jefferson. Keep the perimeter defender on the PG. Hinrich does that. Telfair does not. Can you pair Bayless with Foye/McCants? They all do the same thing.
Still with me or already abandoning ship?
by NBA Observer on
Jun 17, 2008 9:48 AM CDT
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Wouldn't Minnesota just draft Mayo if Miami passed up on him?
He seems like a logical fit, their wing players aren’t exactly spectacular.


