trade rumors (Hinrich-Camby)
by gman2849 on Jun 10, 2008 1:10 AM CDT
109 comments
hinrich for marcus camby .
I think this would really work for the bulls with noah backing him up.
Rose / Thabo
? / Gordon( another trade including Huges) / Thabo
deng / noc (or najera for aaron “fatboy” gray)
Gooden / Tyrus
Camby / Noah
were really set in 3.5 spots with this scenario. Specially if what i read earlier today about Tyrus looking really good at the IMG training facility out in Florida this week.
Camby is a very good player and having Noah backing him up would be an instant upgrade in talent, experience and depth at the 5.
Paxon has some good trades under his belt. (curry for tyrus , noah, contract$$$... tyson for Dead Walace… Gooden). oh and Gordon / Deng / Noc that got us back into the playoffs right away.
and he’s never had this much leverage to work with (1st pick… Hinrich… Gordon…. Deng….Gooden…. all proven players)
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Not too bad
15 mil left on his contract and hes a solid starting center. Great defender.
by TRiCioNeRo on Jun 10, 2008 1:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
sounds good to me...
u can start Thabo at the 2 or Hughes if they are not able to trade him
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
by YEP on Jun 10, 2008 8:52 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
is this a rumor or just your whimsy?
if you read it somewhere please link it.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 10, 2008 8:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Sam Smith had it last night on CTL.
I was looking for the credit ref. Oh, well.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 10, 2008 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nevermind. I see the attribution
on the Memphis trade thread.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 10, 2008 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
good enough.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 10, 2008 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately
I don’t think the nuggets would fall for that…
by JustAnotherFan on Jun 10, 2008 9:17 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I dunno.....
the last former DOP center we got didnt exactly help. I’d much rather try and snatch melo
by sin on Jun 10, 2008 9:37 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That's a dumbass idea
Trade solid guy just hitting his prime years for a soon to be washed up big man.
by Sports2 on Jun 10, 2008 10:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
he is solid. but redundant at the point if we get Rose.
we are not however as solid at the 5.
by gman2849 on Jun 10, 2008 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is Camby better for us than Noah?
We aren’t going to win a championship next year anyway, so why bury your 23-year old center that you drafted #9 overall last year? Besides, Camby isn’t right for our offense. He scores on jumpshots, like Luol does, not from the post.
by YaoPau on Jun 10, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
espn
SEASON FG% FT% P/40 R/40 A/40 TS% Ast TO Usg Reb PER
2002-03 .410 .660 14.4 13.5 3.1 44.4 14.6 8.4 19.0 19.7 17.69
2003-04 .477 .721 11.5 13.5 2.4 51.1 15.7 11.7 13.4 19.0 17.90
2004-05 .465 .723 13.6 13.1 3.0 50.5 16.3 11.1 16.0 18.9 18.05
2005-06 .465 .712 15.4 14.4 2.5 49.9 12.4 10.0 17.6 21.0 20.00
2006-07 .473 .729 13.2 13.8 3.8 51.9 20.3 11.1 15.1 19.4 19.10
2007-08 .450 .708 10.4 15.0 3.8 49.8 23.5 10.7 12.5 20.3 17.24
by gman2849 on Jun 10, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can find those stats too
it still doesn’t answer the question. It doesn’t make sense to trade one of our core players and bench last year’s 1st round pick to make our team marginally better.
by YaoPau on Jun 10, 2008 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hinrich's out of the core.
if there is a core left anyway.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 10, 2008 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cap space
Camby has 15 mil left on his front loaded contract. Hinrich only has 36 mil for 2 extra years. After 2 years wed only be paying Nocioni 7.5, Noah (Team option) 2.5 and Rose 5 mil.
by TRiCioNeRo on Jun 10, 2008 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gracias
I still don’t love the deal, but it makes a whole lot more sense now.
by YaoPau on Jun 10, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't really say if I like or don't like the deal.
Sam seems to think the Nugs are desperate to dump salary. They paid a ton last year to get drummed out of the play-offs in a first round sweep.
I think Sam, like many of us, is trying to figure out what is the best use we can make of Hinrich? Sam’s answer is to use Hinrich’s salary to pay for two years worth of a tutor for Noah.
As far as Noah-tutors go, it’s hard to think of any other player with a more similar best-case developed game for Noah to copy.
However, I’m not sure that that’s how I’d like to use my Hinrich-voucher. Best case for me would be trying to pool everything at our disposal to get a shot at Beasley. (This assumes we take Rose #1.)
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 10, 2008 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
there's no such thing as a 'tutor'
Camby would be here to play. He’d likely play pretty well.
They’d also have some leeway to then deal Gooden, though a Camby-Noah-Tyrus frontcourt is still a bit too slight of build.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 10, 2008 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Practice-tutor, technique-tutor.
A role similar to Alonzo’s as he’s been playing out the string.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 10, 2008 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ach--bad example...
and I can’t come up with a good one right now.
Don’t players on their last legs sometimes mentor the young ones coming in?
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 10, 2008 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
would you?
young guy will steal his job. I’m sure they help somewhat but it shouldn’t be WHY you bring someone in.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 10, 2008 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
High paid tutors...
I agree that many veteran players won’t love the idea of training their replacement. But it could be argued that Noah would get better just by practicing against Camby every day.
But then again, If it buries him, then maybe not.
I think that this trade could work, but then Camby and Noah would be the only players I wanted at the five. Give them 24 minutes each. Keep gray on the roster as a slow footed post option in case of injury. And leave Gooden and Tyrus with a similar split at the 4.
by kidronmusic on Jun 10, 2008 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In Sam's trade,
Gray went to Denver anyway.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 10, 2008 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh no!
I’m entirely against trading Gray!
I know his brother a little bit and was planning to hit him up for Bulls tickets next year.
I am completely against this trade now!
by kidronmusic on Jun 10, 2008 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about PJ?
Wasn’t he brought in, at least in part, to tutor Tyrus?
I thought that was explicit in his signing.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 10, 2008 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
38
isn’t the same as 34 or whatever camby is.
camby probably wouldn’t see himself going into a situation like pj’s until his next contract.
by Jaina on Jun 10, 2008 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Smith, then.
Age 32, still-effective part-time player, hard-worker, a lot of info to pass on to the next generation.
I agree that Camby would see himself still as a player with a lot to contribute on the court as well—as on the practice floor.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 10, 2008 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're barking up a wrong tree, Alec.
If it happens, it’s way more uncommon than what you’re thinking.
by tyger1147 on Jun 10, 2008 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would think end of the road players would be more inclined to tutor
Unless it’s like a Shaq/Amare thing where the younger player has already established himself as the clear superstar, and the older guy will gladly hand out tidbits of NBA help.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 10, 2008 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My only disagreement is with Matt's headline:
“there’s no such thing as a ‘tutor’”
Everything else, I agree with. This isn’t really an argument, just a little thing that’s already gone on too long.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 10, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Smith was brought on to play
either they can play or they’re just salaries. They wouldn’t pay a player to tutor. Only to suspend rookies.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 10, 2008 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
PJ wasn't very happy here
from what I can gather.
by Sports2 on Jun 10, 2008 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tutoring Earl Barron?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 10, 2008 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't the real problem there
lack of scoring punch? Or perhaps I should say, lack of low post scorer…
Hmm, lack of low post scorer. Is there an echo in here? Like from years past?
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Jun 11, 2008 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a trade but...
How about signing Arenas? Clear some cap space with Hughes and maybe Hinrich. It is a stretch but it is possible. Draft Rose and that is a solid squad.
Rose/Thabo
Arenas/Gordon/Thabo
Deng/Noc?
Gooden/Tyrus
Noah/Gray
That would be a great lineup, difficult to assemble, but possible
by careyrd on Jun 10, 2008 10:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Arenas might be my favorite player/personality in the NBA
but I don’t know if I’d want him constantly whispering in Rose’s ear. (You know he would be, too.)
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 10, 2008 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
reference to Tyrus from ESPN
chat with david thorpe last week
here are the specific references:
Sam(Jacksonville): Hi Dave, big Bulls fan here. I saw some video of Luol Deng saying he’s down there with you. Ty Thomas is too. I’m so happy!! How do they look, and can you please try to get Joakim down there too? If he had a jumper, he’d be so much better.
.
David Thorpe: Tyrus and Luol have been spectacular so far. So hard working-first guys here every morning. Udonis told me that Noah will come here with UD later this summer, but until Chicago makes it’s coaching decision everything is a bit up in the airNasir, Philly: Do you think Ty Thomas makes big improvements this summer? Lock him up in the gym. David Thorpe: Yes, but he’s played better than most people realize already.Marcus (Chicago): Do you think you can help Tyrus learn how to move without the ball through cutting lanes? Last year he didn’t position himself well to receive it. David Thorpe: Yes we can.
by gman2849 on Jun 10, 2008 10:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow, I usually look for Thorpe's chats, and I managed to completely miss this one!
He’s been high on Tyrus all along. It’s good to hear things are going well down there.
Here's to what was suppose to be the most exciting offseason in years, but has instead spiraled downward into pitiful morass of indecision. Cheers!
by wjb1492 on Jun 10, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yet more
http://www.blogabull.com/2008/6/6/547337/tt-deng-working-out-togeth
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 10, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a little concerned taht noah's not down there already.
The main point behind Sam’s Camby trade was that Sam felt Noah “wasn’t ready” yet…and that his episodes this summer demonstrate that unreadiness. I’d like to see Noah working hard to dispell that notion…rather of seeing his smiling face pop up on French Open telecasts. (Yes, I realize it’s probably “family time” for him—even so.)
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 10, 2008 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
who, on a team that will likely have four starters under 25 at the end of next year...
...really is ready?
by tyger1147 on Jun 10, 2008 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Sam's point was, "Ready to act like a pro."
Given that reading of Sam’s remarks, I’d say certainly Gordon and Deng have been ready from day 1.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 10, 2008 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know Alec. My point hidden point in there is that Sam probably...
...too much emphasis on professionalism. Sam’s still trying to figure out if Allen Iverson is ready.
by tyger1147 on Jun 10, 2008 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ugh, that's all screwed up
Sorry for the unreadability. I think you can get the point. Maybe.
by tyger1147 on Jun 10, 2008 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get your point
Sam sees anyone who doesn’t act like the Cleaver boys as uppity
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Jun 10, 2008 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, and then implies, or explicitly says...
...they’ll have trouble being good NBA PLAYERS because of it.
by tyger1147 on Jun 10, 2008 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wellll...that reminds me of Bertrand Russell's analysis of "Sense Data,"
It’s a slow day, and I’m tempted to go into the whole thing, but instead I’ll just skip to the conclusion: Very similar things are hard to tell apart, and wildly divergent things are not worth arguing about.
So…give Sam a little more credit than the Beave vs. AI. ;-)
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 10, 2008 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We were having a good discussion.
And then look at you. And yet you “blame” me.
For shame, for shame.
by tyger1147 on Jun 10, 2008 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Excellent find, Gman
and I’m happy to hear it. Go Tyrus.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jun 10, 2008 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
great news
best news i’ve heard in a while.
might have to have a cup of Remy Ma (amber liquid) in the hopes that Noah gets his gangsta ass down there too!
by Orlando Woolridge on Jun 10, 2008 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You really need to mention this is Sam Smith's brainchild...
...you got this idea from him on CTL last night. He mentioned this deal: Hinrich and a throw in like Aaron Gray for Camby, their 1st round and 2nd round pick and possibly Najera.
I wouldn’t mind thid trade if their 1st rounder was a little higher. I’d love a chance to nab someone like Alexander in the teens. But as alec said above, I’m not sure if this is the best use of our Hinrich voucher. He seems to hold real value in the league for teams who have 2 guards that can actually shoot and dribble the ball- which is actually most of the league besides us (what a concept!).
As for the second part of the original post, you totally lost me when you started mentioning trades Pax had completed, and then referred to Gordon and Noc… who were never involved in any trades…?
by smash! on Jun 10, 2008 11:53 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Najera is a FA
I think space+picks isn’t the worst return for Hinrich, to be honest. It’s almost a win simply not to pay him through the end of the decade.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 10, 2008 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
then again I did crap on the LaFrentz/#13 offer from Portland
which is a similar return to Camby/#20
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 10, 2008 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shame on you
for mentioning LaFrentz in the same breath as Camby… The draft picks don’t offset their talent levels nearly enough to compare those deals.
by kingj41 on Jun 10, 2008 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, that's bad writing...
But what I mean is if it was the #4 Plus LaFrentz, vs. #15 plus Camby, that’d be harder to choose between.
by kingj41 on Jun 10, 2008 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
camby's the far better player
LaFrentz’s deal is shorter. It’s up for debate what has more value.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 10, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
I would rather Raef and #13 for Camby. Raef dont need minutes and there will be alot of talent at 13 maybe even DeAndre Jordan, but Joe Alexander, Koufus, Rush, Green and McGee look good.
by TRiCioNeRo on Jun 10, 2008 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it was more a way
to showcase Paxon’s decisions. Deng was a trade pick phoenix was selling, and Gordon and noc were good scouting decisions.
by gman2849 on Jun 10, 2008 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This type of deal reminds of me of trading Chandler
Get rid of a solid player because it is a supposed strength, and trade him for less than market value. Camby is good but how much does he really have left, and how long can he stay healthy? Granted, Derek Rose replacing Kirk Hinrich is light year’s beyond Ben Wallace replacing Tyson Chandler, but I still think Hinrich can bring a better return than the Camby-Man. I’m also not saying we should keep Hinrich, just don’t trade him for the sake of trading him.
"Me like to shoot much" - Andres Nocioni
by BNeL21 on Jun 10, 2008 12:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i'd rather it be
the camby-man, than the kandi-man….
haha, sorry couldn’t resist. :D
by Jaina on Jun 10, 2008 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, speaking of nicknames,
I’m saying “Apron Gray”. There’s just something matronly about they guy when he’s overweight. Who’s with me here…?
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Jun 11, 2008 12:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
in some ways that's true
they wanted to get out from under Chandler’s contract, and want to do the same with Hinrich. But Chandler was 23 (Hinrich’s 27), and in Hinrich’s case they’d be making way for Derrick Rose, not Ben Wallace.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 10, 2008 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree Hinrich should be traded
I just think we can do better than a 34 year old big man and a mid/late 1st round pick. Kirk is still an upgrade over a lot of teams point guards, and trading him just to get out of his contract(unless he’s sent out with hughes or noc) shouldn’t be the objective.
"Me like to shoot much" - Andres Nocioni
by BNeL21 on Jun 10, 2008 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lets say
for arguments sake that Hinrich is right in the middle of the pack of the starting PG’s in the league. The teams that have a lesser PG would not trade that much to go from their current PG to hinrich, it just isn’t that much of a difference. Maybe teams like Portland, Denver, Miami would give significant value for him but thats just a couple of teams
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith
by tyrus4prez on Jun 10, 2008 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't trade Kirk
1. His value is at an all time low after this crappy year.
2. Rose won’t be ready from day one. Kirk can take a lot of the pressure off him.
3. Kirk’s best value is that he can play either guard spot with some effectiveness. Out of all the guards we’ve got, he seems to be the best fit next to Rose. That doesn’t make him ideal (ideally I’d say he’s the sixth man at a lower salary), but I don’t see how our other guys fit in the long-run.
So I’d hang on to him with the thinking that his value will probably only go up (as his contract gets shorter and he can’t play any worse than last year) and he has a role here over the next year or two. At the very least, we don’t need to be dumping him for a guy in his mid-thirties who, himself, is superfluous.
by Sports2 on Jun 10, 2008 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree completely on his value.
Right now, Kirk has both intrinsic value and time value.
If he winds up a bench-sitter this year-which he will-he will lose his intrinsic value. His time value will still be low until he’s an expiring contract, at which point it might hold in or possibly trend slightly upward.
It’s Options 101.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 10, 2008 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Intrinsic value and time value?
Did you just make both of those up?
I do agree, though, with his minutes seriously decreasing with Rose around (and especially if we re-sign Gordon), I don’t really see his stock going up too much.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Jun 10, 2008 11:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah. They're options terminology...
just trying to get MarketMaker to weigh in.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 11, 2008 12:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I assumed that name referenced supermarkets
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 11, 2008 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's just a pricing model that options traders have formalized
to create a matrix that relates the value of the thing itself to its value over time…to come up with one number that reflects both.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 11, 2008 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
perhaps I'll use a stronger "I don't give a shit"
remark next time…
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 11, 2008 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's premised on an if
I agree, if he’s a bench sitter this year, his value declines.
But he won’t be a bench sitter.
1. Knowing the Bulls, Rose won’t break into the starting lineup for a few games no matter how good he is and how bad everyone else is. But potentially it could be longer. Deron Williams is my tentative guideline for Rose.
2. OK, so who starts next to Rose?
a. Gordon? Won’t be on the team most likely. And if he is, you can be damn sure the Bulls won’t start him.
b. Hughes? People are calling for Hughes to be bought out for reasons. Unless he’s completely in a haze, I’d rather play Kirk.
c. Thabo? Maybe, I suppose, but aside from his size I just don’t see a justification for this. Kirk’s still, and probably always will be a better player than Thabo. Certainly for pairing up with Rose over the next couple years, I’d take the relatively competent ball-handler (to relieve pressure on Rose) and the guy I somewhat expect can drain an open shot.
In the longer run, I don’t think the guy we want is on the roster.
by Sports2 on Jun 11, 2008 6:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A new coach is going to put the new player on the floor.
Even if Hinrich is able to garner some early pt, as the season wears on, that time will go increasongly to Rose, and by the end of the year Hinrich’s (as I’m calling it) intrinsic value will be scraping along the bottom at new lows.
VDN won’t put Hinrich at the 2, either. That will be Thabo, or for instant offense, Gordon.
We have to cash in the Hinrich voucher—the sooner the better.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 11, 2008 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You really don't know what you're talking about...
...when it comes to basketball, do you? I can’t believe you came in here acting deferent as if you didn’t know a thing and now you’re mind-reading new coaches? You’re speaking, as fact, about things that none of us have an idea about. You’re incredible.
I know you take that as a compliment. It’s not.
by tyger1147 on Jun 11, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose you believe
that a new coach is going to sit his #1 draft pick and have him “watch and learn” from a player whose game is as dissimilar as could be?
VDN will want to take personal responsibility for shaping Rose’s game.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 11, 2008 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The criticism wasn't about gradually giving Rose more minutes over Hinrich
It was about suggesting that VDN wouldn’t put Hinrich at the 2 and then going further to imply that Sefolosha will get the starter’s minutes there with Gordon coming in “for instant offense.” Maybe you’ve gotten far enough along in “Blink” to see VDN’s rotation, and if so, please issue such a disclaimer. If you’re not blinking your way through this, stop writing like NBAO. You know, putting forth baseless speculation as observed fact.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Jun 11, 2008 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me get this straight...
You want to keep Kirk, and play him at the 2.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 11, 2008 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Think I've posted this before
Kirk’s a nice option as a backup to both guard positions. His minutes at the 2 should be limited, but he’s likely to be a better option there than Thabo or Hughes. Yes, that means I see Gordon as the starter, defensive height limitations be damned.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Jun 11, 2008 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see Kirk as the odd man out.
The problem, to me, is all about how to cash him in.
He won’t net a long-term solution to the front court because he’s not quite valuable enough to bring in better value than we already have there.
I’m mostly on board with the many-times-mentioned Kirk/Maggette deal, but this “deal ” highlights the whole issue—we can get a valuable player, but that player will be older, and likely not too useful by the time the Rose-led Bulls are ready to make a serious run.
Sam’s idea, that you use Kirk to get Camby, a player that one hopes would markedly improve Noah’s (and maybe even Tyrus’) development over the next couple of years, is an acknowledgement of the "trade for age" issue, and an attempt to make the best of it.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 11, 2008 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with cashing him in is the reason that the Bulls should hold on to him
His value is down and likely won’t get lower. If he’s still on the roster for next season and bounces back from his terrible year, he will get plenty of minutes, likely at both guard positions. His value around the NBA will improve and he’ll be in better condition to move at the trade deadline or after next season. If he’s a piece in a trade this offseason, it’ll most likely be to help match salaries.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Jun 11, 2008 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree....
That’s the thing. His value is pretty high right now. The point guard position is at a premium. Everybody watched Nash, Paul and Deron Williams run all over the league the last few seasons. And this season, there isn’t any point guards better than Hinrich available. You could make a case that TJ Ford is better, but he has injury issues. Calderon is probably better, but nobody thinks that Toronto will let him go.
So, New York, LA Clips, Miami, Portland, Indiana, Milwaukee, Charlotte, and I’m sure I’m forgetting a few teams, all would love to get Kirk this summer.
Kirk is not the best player on our team, right now we have the ability to trade him for somebody that will instantly be the best player on our team. A Maggette, Bynum, Marion, Camby… these are good players, and in most cases, don’t have the length of contract that Kirk does either, meaning we can have additional flexibility in 2010 when the best free agent class of all time hits the market.
I don’t think his value will be any better next year. Especially if he loses minutes this year.
by kidronmusic on Jun 11, 2008 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
really?
Gordon? Won’t be on the team most likely. And if he is, you can be damn sure the Bulls won’t start him.
That’s two presumptions I don’t agree with, especially with a new coach.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 11, 2008 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes!
I’ve read or seen all of the following, at one point or the other in the past season.
1. Not benching Gordon was a cause of friction between Skiles and Paxson.
2. The nearly immediate benching of Gordon on Skiles’ dismissal.
3. A subsequent statement from Paxson, quoted directly, outlining “the issue” with Gordon starting.
Add onto that I see
4. The Reinsdorf rumor in the fanposts
5. The actual Reinsdorf quote from an article where he was saying one of the things he asked D’Antoni about were his feelings about coaching Gordon the the QO.
6. He wants a lot of money
7. Larry Hughes will likely be difficult to move and does similar things (but much worse).
It’s not that I want him gone, but the writing is on the wall. If the Bulls could find takers for everyone else they’ve wanted gone, they’ll find a taker for Gordon.
by Sports2 on Jun 11, 2008 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It also "came out" recently
that not benching Hinrich (in favor of Duhon, no less) was a source of friction between the players and coaching staffs.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 11, 2008 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They would also
be shoring up the 5 spot for the next couple of years until Noah Develops and simply gets bigger (if possible)
by gman2849 on Jun 10, 2008 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is this a good time to mention that I want Marion?
I realize that Shawn Marion was unhappy for much of his time with the suns… But from what I remember, it was mostly due to his desire for a more prominent role.
Purely speculation, but I wonder if Vinny will nudge Pax to look into trading for the Matrix.
I wonder if Kirk, Tyrus and Noc could get it done. I would be willing to take back Banks. I realize that the majority of BABers have a justified love affair with Tyrus. But I think that at best, he is a Marion type player, so why not trade him for that type of player now.
Rose/Banks
Gordon/Thabo/ Hughes
Deng/Thabo
Marion/Gooden
Noah/Gray
by kidronmusic on Jun 10, 2008 1:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Marion - NO
1.) Getting older. Won’t be able to use his quick jump forever.
2.) Not a 4. He’s 6’-7”.
3.) $$$
4.) Do you really want to float him out there as your #1 guy with that jump-shot?
5.) He’s a ‘me guy.’ I have a buddy that plays with the Suns now that can verify that one.
by kingj41 on Jun 10, 2008 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marion...
1)It true he is getting older, but so is pretty much every available established available player in this league. Established productive players under 30 aren’t easy to come by.
2) He can play the four for now, he is a good defender, and he is too quick for other 4’s to keep up with. He played the 4 out west, and last year in our east. He is a good 4 in an uptempo offense. I can see that if he slows down, he is no longer a four, so then we play him at three in a split with Deng.
3) He will have one year left at the high price. Then he would be our restricted free agent. Plus, if we can send them Kirk and Noc, we are getting rid of a lot of contract commitments. If after a year, we can’t afford him, then we try to sign and trade him for a better fit. I he is working out great, then we match whatever offer he gets.
4) I don’t mind calling Marion our number one. He plays at an all star level, is good on both sides of the floor and isn’t a black hole on offense. He would fit well in an atheltic up-tempo system and give Rose a good cutting target.
5) He may be a me guy in the locker room, but not on the floor. He doesn’t score off isolation, he scores off of ball movement.
by kidronmusic on Jun 10, 2008 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's a bad number 1
He can’t make his own shot. For a team that has no playmakers, he’s not an ideal fit at all. He’s a sidekick because he is so good at getting to the right spot on the court to score, and is very shifty and herky-jerky in the paint, getting tons of points on floaters, lay ups, and dunks.
His defense has been overrated for a few years. It’s not terrible, but it’s not that great either. The Bulls won’t be running D’Antoni’s offense anytime soon, so his advantage as being a quicker 4 pretty much goes out the window. He’s better at defending more perimeter-oriented big men, like Nowitzki or Carmelo.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 10, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matrix....
He isn’t the ideal number one.
I would rather have a number one who was a tall shooting guard who played great defense, had a great outside shot, and a really quick first step that allowed him to get to the line early and often. Plus, good character, a fiery and competitive disposition, and a low salary.
Oh, and I would like to trade Kirk Hinrich and Nocioni for this player…
by kidronmusic on Jun 10, 2008 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
dammit.... that guy isn't available.
Since we probably can’t pull off a trade of Kirk and Noc for an ideal number one.
How about Marion?
He would only be guarenteed one year, then we can resign him for a more fair value. He isn’t young, but thirty isn’t that old. Especially for somebody who isn’t considered injury prone, and is atheltic enough to stay relevent for a while longer. (Although, he may have to switch to a three in the latter years of his contract.
by kidronmusic on Jun 10, 2008 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maggette?
Would you rather have Maggette?
I’m asking that as an honest question, no sarcasm.
I go back and forth, because Maggette could drive and score. And his shot isn’t terrible.
But, he also doesn’t pass off of the dribble, doesn’t have great range, and isn’t considered the smartest baller in the league.
by kidronmusic on Jun 10, 2008 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like Maggette if he was exchanged for Kirk
He can play the 2 and 3, and his IQ deficiency might not come up if he’s sharing the 2 with Gordon. Over the course of a season, Maggette’s ability to get to the FT line would be a huge boon for the Bulls. He isn’t a great shooter, but I think he could be the aggressive player Chicago needs, perhaps motivating Deng to attack the basket with some more ferocity.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 10, 2008 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
Scrappy defensive player, undersized for his position, who uses athleticism and motor to make up for his lack of height?
For tradition alone, the Bulls should acquire him just as he starts to slow down.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Jun 11, 2008 1:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matrix has too much wear for my liking
Spending 3 and a half seasons doing every little thing for Phoenix, it finally caught up to him in Miami. He’s also quite small for a PF, and he only plays that position if you run the up-tempo offense.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 10, 2008 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No reason
Why go after these 30 something guys? We have the #1 pick!!! Take advantage I would blow the whole team up like Portland did we do not and we can not win it all now so lets say 5 years from now. I mean there are some good players coming up next few years draft my favs Tyreke Evans, Rubio (This guy is Steve Nash), Blake Griffin, Greg Monroe, BJ Mullens I know ill hear it for this one but Hasheem Thabeet (Next Dikembe especially with his massive hands). Id rather not contend, have cap space and ping pong balls then contend and be a doormat for teams.
by TRiCioNeRo on Jun 10, 2008 4:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Portland didn't blow their team up
They got ridiculously lucky by getting the #1 pick and got Oden, which then deemed Randolph expendable. Since he was such a fat ass and team cancer, it wasn’t even that big of a loss. I’d say the team was just more conscious of their image after the Jailblazers era that they were willing to cut ties with players who had questionable character (Randolph, Sheed, Francis, Bonzi).
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 10, 2008 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I LOVE all the points pitched to about this team
because despite the hiccups that came from last years losses… (including some really BAD coaching)
we are a much better team then we were 1 year ago
we are a little bit older and more experienced (deng is 23!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
we are going to be a lot more athletic (Rose OR Beastley EITHER makes us much better)
Gordon AND Deng MUST play a S#$tload better next year to get a good contract
Tyrus and Noah WILL BE BETTER for having played one more year (i’m banking on Ty)
The rest of the league will NOT be able to successfully defend us as a hard working limited athletic perimeter team anymore because paxson picked up gooden (even huges) AND our first draft pick.
Paxson has a LOT more leeway in getting a good trade done
People…. we won 49 games with a lot less talent and experience 2 years ago.
Really????
we aren’t good?
Really
by gman2849 on Jun 11, 2008 12:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Do you
See us winning 49 next year?
by TRiCioNeRo on Jun 12, 2008 1:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think the east is much, much improved since two years ago...
49 would be tough.
by swede2287 on Jun 12, 2008 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
49 wins in one of the weakest conferences ever
The East in 2007 was pretty weak. As a 49 win team, the Bulls had the 3rd best record in the conference, that’s not saying much about the competition they were up against. Several teams were downright tanking (Celtics, Bucks). As it stands, Boston, Detroit, Orlando, Cleveland, Washington should all have better records than Chicago. That puts us in Toronto Raptors territory, a team that could win anywhere from 40-47 games.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 12, 2008 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with most of that...
we could win more games than Washington, possibly Cleveland if we can swing a trade for a good big man.
by swede2287 on Jun 12, 2008 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see us being better than either at this point
When this team actually plays together my opinion may change, I hope it will since I can’t stand either of those teams.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 12, 2008 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that we have
the same guys plus a couple of great new additions that won 49 2 yrs ago. why not?
by gman2849 on Jun 12, 2008 8:30 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Depending on who they pick and the moves they make after the draft....
i could see them winning 49+ games( if they draft rose and trade kirk/gooden and future 1st for healthy Brand)
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
by YEP on Jun 12, 2008 12:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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