Thinking of Tyson

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 8, 2008 10:24 PM CDT

Not that this hasn't been rehashed a-plenty over the past couple years, but seeing Tyson Chandler deservedly lauded by national TV coverage as a key cog on a title-contending team is bizarre.

Not that he didn't show the talent here, or is even performing that much better now than he was as a Bull (when he was at his best as a Bull). The incredible part is the change in perception. Someone who once was a key face in a regime that meant failure and unrealized potential, is now deemed someone we should know more about.Yes, playing with Chris Paul helps, not as much to make Tyson better but to make the team better, with winning serving as the cure for all ills.

Tyson was dealt after his steady career growth was stunted by an abysmal season. The same type of season that most of the current Bulls just went through. The postscript to Tyson's exit was that it was an irreparable rift between him and Skiles, and they needed to be separated for him to regain his confidence. This whole team is now getting separated from Skiles.

It's not guaranteed that Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, et. al will get back on track in terms of performance with a new coach. But one thing I don't like reading is the labeling of them as losers, the type who can never be a real part of a good team again. The same was once said about Chandler, and all it took for him was a better situation for him to 'magically' become a winner again.

(This isn't meant to go into the past and get into why dealing Chandler was a mistake. I never thought the deal was because of not believing in Chandler's talent. Just incorrectly figured that effectively replacing him with Ben Wallace was a good move because even a bounced-back Chandler wouldn't be as good as Wallace. I was wrong, of course, because Wallace was dead man walking. A healthy lesson to consider when dreaming up any 'upgrade' trades.)

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The first quotes I remember seeing from Chandler post-trade

were praise for his new coach for showing faith in him as a player. This was before we got to see anything of the new, courtesy-of-Chris-Paul Tyson.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on May 8, 2008 10:36 PM CDT 0 recs

Watching these playoff games makes me a little

depressed, to be frank.

Looking at things objectively, I don’t know if the Bulls have a single player the caliber of Paul (NO), Duncan (SA), Kobe (LA), Williams (Utah), Garnett (Boston), Howard (Orlando), LeBron (Cleveland), or even Rasheed (Detroit).

Maybe someone will emerge next season, though.

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on May 8, 2008 10:39 PM CDT 0 recs

compared to that group? doubtful

although that’s only considering ‘Sheed’s good days.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 8, 2008 10:49 PM CDT up 0 recs

Thanks

for the reminder of what teams those players are on. I really would have been lost w/o your extra effort.

by Ugh It Live! on May 9, 2008 4:24 PM CDT up 0 recs

Well put

It hurts to be honest. Tyson was never going to be a back to the basket scorer but he might be the one of the best shot blockers and rebounders in the game…not to mention the best alley-oop catcher. I agree with your observations big time- the most powerful thing you can do as a coach is empower your players and build confidence in them. Skiles was obviously not that type of coach. It is sickening to watch though. Tyrus can be a mini-Chandler well at least the alley-oop and shot blocker and Noah can fill the rebounding part. Ugh…..

by un-Bull-leavea-Bull on May 8, 2008 10:56 PM CDT 0 recs

Tyrus has far more offensive skill

than Chandler ever showed, even if he’ll never be over 7 feet tall.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 9, 2008 12:08 AM CDT up 0 recs

Great Post Matt

Im not sure i ever took the time to really think about this….One bad season truly doesnt mean that we are looking at busts for players. A better situation for some of these players might give cue to a ‘Chandler Effect’. This adds more leverage to my “give them one more year before you judge them” argument…

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on May 8, 2008 10:59 PM CDT 0 recs

sure, but

you guys keep talking about all these players dramatically changing over the course of one off-season and i dont see how. a new coach? a young addition? no. the only thing (at least in my opinion) that may alter the way the bulls play would be a trade, which could mean several people not returning next year, which sort of breaks the whole “lets just wait until next year” tie that people keep talking about.

Finally: The End.

by ChiTownCritic on May 8, 2008 11:07 PM CDT 0 recs

there are a lot of things that are going to be different next year

like contract situations and coaching philosophies on offense and defense, which sort of breaks the whole “lets just trade these guys because they obviously suck since you should base everything on how they played last year” thing that people keep talking about….

2008 or bust.

by bullshooter on May 8, 2008 11:13 PM CDT up 0 recs

so you're saying

that you dont want to change the main players on the roster and ur basically just going to give them another year to prove themselves? thats interesting seeing as how its not the major change from last years performance to this years performance that changed what we thought of the players, but it was the mere consistency that they kept throughout the season in keeping low averages. they had 82 (- injuries) games to say something about themselves really.

Finally: The End.

by ChiTownCritic on May 8, 2008 11:18 PM CDT up 0 recs

If they can upgrade

then by all means make a trade, but don’t just shuffle. The coaching change is big enough. I don’t see anybody being available this off season who is going to be a true upgrade in the long run. If Chandler doesn’t show the danger of making short term fixes, then I don’t know what does.

2008 or bust.

by bullshooter on May 8, 2008 11:26 PM CDT up 0 recs

All I can say is

We have Joakim.

If someone could get Kirk to play 75% of Paul’s game, Joakim will far be better suited for this team than Tyson

by Option27 on May 9, 2008 12:18 AM CDT 0 recs

kids

the first mistake was drafting tyson right out of high school. he and his game were immature for a long time and if they were not willing to keep him long term then they should not have drafted him originally. then they traded him away for nothing (well they got jr smith but cut him). that being said tyson pissed me off on the Bulls the guy refused to jump off of the floor, which he does now and being so tall he is unstoppable. He claimed to be plagued by back problems.

I dont think it is that the players refused to play for skiles that has been the downfall of this team. As i watched the hornets spurs i was getting frustrated watching tyson, then i saw byron scott who is now one of the best coaches supposedly. Nonsense shenanigans…the coaches i know about are the ones who have really good players on their teams (aka allstars). I think the bulls tried to follow the pistons formula of teamwork over talent, which is comendable but it wasnt until they went out and got sheed that they became nba elite. CLEARLY they havent found a franchise player via the draft. an argument can be made that the core (like chandler) may still turn into franchise players, but the type of star needed dominates from day 1 (even if they dont make the playoffs) ala paul, wade… a phenom… hypos are tiresome but i think skiles (dare i say boylan) coulda won with CP3

solutions: Get Gilbert Arenas. The Wiz owner says he intends to resign him, but…. Trade up for Rose or Beasely. Maybe we get lucky with ping pong balls but if we dont i doubt we get lucky again with the 9th in which case the roster fills up with role players year after year .

Super Bowl XLI MVP Rex Grossman
Chicago Bulls Captain and Starting Point Guard Kirk Hinrich...
Same Person

by 234L on May 9, 2008 12:38 AM CDT 0 recs

and here I thought you'd say

the solution was giving Hinrich another contract extension…

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 9, 2008 12:42 AM CDT up 0 recs

Trade up for Rose or Beasely

And how do you do that ? Do you think any team will serve you Rose or Beasley on a platter ?

I don’t think so.

The Game chose him !

by Diabolo on May 9, 2008 4:05 AM CDT up 0 recs

draft pick

+hinrich + gooden? i dont know but one thing about the bulls is they definitely have a lot of role players and chips right now to make a trade if they so choose.

Super Bowl XLI MVP Rex Grossman
Chicago Bulls Captain and Starting Point Guard Kirk Hinrich...
Same Person

by 234L on May 9, 2008 10:05 AM CDT up 0 recs

I don't think there's any combination

of Bulls players that could get them into the top two in the draft.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on May 9, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up 0 recs

Wow, I had to stop and read that again

That must be the first time I’ve seen you act as the voice of reason for someone else

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on May 9, 2008 1:26 PM CDT up 0 recs

Hey, don't get carried away.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on May 9, 2008 2:18 PM CDT up 0 recs

You had me until Arenas

...+/- aside, his teammates seem to play better without him. And who knows how healthy he’ll be.

I completely agree w/ you about the drafting out of h.s. though. Unless you’re a Kobe or KG, I think it’s almost a disservice to fans and the player. Let them have 3+years in college learning the game and being immature there.

by T Maple on May 9, 2008 6:20 AM CDT up 0 recs

Let Coach K turn them into men! With glue, and imported pubic hair!

Yuck.

Also, the ‘Wiz are better off without Arenas’ is the dumbest sentiment of 2007-08. MVP ~~Steve Nash~~ Kobe isn’t even close.

by hscs on May 9, 2008 8:21 AM CDT up 0 recs

It's "Take Sarcasm Literally" Day

Really? Why is that the dumbest sentiment (and who are you quoting)? Why the “yuck” to waiting until they’ve had 3 yrs in college (and what does that have to do with Coach K or becoming “men”?) And why might Kobe as MVP be one of the other dumber sentiments?

by T Maple on May 9, 2008 11:20 AM CDT up 0 recs

I always liked Tyson...

and while he was on the Bulls he was easily my favorite player. What bugged me the most about his departure was that it was after a particularly rough year for him. Even so, after the trade he mentioned to a newspaper (New Orleans one I think) about how he was going to work hard and show the Bulls they made a mistake in trading him away.

I wish athletes would put that kind of work into showing the team that they DIDN’T make a mistake in scouting, drafting, and developing you. Why not work just as hard to avoid getting traded?

That being said, and recent history aside, I still believe the Bulls would not have beaten Miami with TC in place of Ben Wallace. As far as defensive scheme’s go TC was very foul prone in the Bulls system and couldn’t stay on the floor to do what he’s doing. Ben Wallace was at least able to stay on the floor against Shaq. Tyson’s per 36 minute numbers aren’t that different from his Bulls days except for his fouls committed. Nearly a foul less per 36 minutes which has allowed him to play more minutes in the past two seasons than his last three with the Bulls. Granted one of those Bulls seasons was an injury season but his first NO/OK year was 400 minutes more than ever before and this past season was 200 more minutes than that. My very uneducated analysis would just seem to indicate that the NO defense doesn’t place as much pressure on TC and he commits fewer tacky fouls.

by CubFan81 on May 9, 2008 7:31 AM CDT 0 recs

It helps

when the PF next to you is an all-star that puts up 20ppg. We talk a lot about how Paul has really helped Chandler, but I think it’s more the effects of David West. When Chandler and West are on the floor together they compliment each other’s weaknesses. West is the superior offensive player with range on his jump shot, but Chandler can also play a role on offense due to the superstar Chris Paul. The Hornets can alternate the pick and roll screeners between Chandler and West. The approaches to the set are different. West will screen further from the basket to spread the floor to set up more 3 point shots. With Chandler the screen moves 6’ closer to the rim and the other 3 Hornets make dive cuts baseline and/or dart out to the perimeter to draw their defender out of the paint. What is almost always there is a simple lob pass to Chandler. He only gets about 4-5 shots per game and almost all of them are dunks.

On the defensive end, Tyson is the man. He guards Duncan. He guards Amare. West takes the lesser offensive threat to focus primarily on rebounding and filling up the paint to deny penetration to the rim. But most of all Tyson rarely leaves his primary assignment. You will almost always find him shadowing his primary assignment all over the court and only leaving them when the strong offensive player has taken a position on the court where they are ineffective.

by NBA Observer on May 9, 2008 8:58 AM CDT up 0 recs

Good call

West and Chandler compliment each other very well with their different skill sets. That’s why as much as I like Noah and Thomas, we need a more skilled big similar to West who can score and knock down open jumpers. It makes it so much easier to run pick & rolls and pick & pops when you have a guy who you have to pay attention to. This helps with spacing and helps the 1, 2, & 3 man get easier shots and not have to create everything themselves. Especially since we don’t have dominating perimeter guy who can create whenever he wants.

Everybody keeps talking about Noah and Thomas being able to run the floor well for D’Antoni, which is right, but when we don’t get a shot off in the initial break, we need a big who is a threat to score to run those ball screens he loves to run. Maybe Tyrus can grow into this role, but that will take alot of time.

Everybody also only thinks of how D’Antoni coached the Phoenix players, but he has a European basketball background. And if you’re familiar at all with that type of basketball, alot of it is based on skill and versatility. The bigs over there (or all players really) aren’t as athletic as NBA players, but they are generally better shooters and passers. Not everybody needs to be an incredible athlete to play in D’Antoni’s up tempo system. It usually works best with a good combination of athletes and skiled players who can shoot.

by rb22 on May 9, 2008 10:28 AM CDT up 0 recs

Doris Burke was talking about West last night

West was drafted without this 18’ jump shot. This is something he and the Hornets staff worked tirelessly to improve. This is his fifth season in the NBA and he’s endured some injuries, but as we now witness he has this mid range game that makes the compliment to Chandler so incredibly strong.

I believe we have a similar player in Tyrus Thomas. We just need two things. A coaching staff that a proven track record of player development and a veteran big man off the bench(or a starter) that knows the NBA grind and the punishment fours and fives face in the NBA.

by NBA Observer on May 9, 2008 10:56 AM CDT up 0 recs

If they lock him in the weight room over the Summer

Luol Deng might also become West-like.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on May 9, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up 0 recs

no.

by hscs on May 9, 2008 11:05 AM CDT up 0 recs

Why not?

One guy’s strong with no jump shot; the other guy’s got a jump shot but no strength.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on May 9, 2008 11:19 AM CDT up 0 recs

On West

West already had an above average back to the basket game. That’s one of the main reasons the Hornets drafted him.

Deng? We’re still trying to improve his dribbling. Deng is part of our core. I want to keep him. His strengths are too high to abandon based on a few of his weaknesses.

by NBA Observer on May 9, 2008 11:40 AM CDT up 0 recs

I made the Deng vs. West comparison in detail a while back

While we’ve tried to teach Deng to dribble, West, in fact, did lock himself in a weight room for a couple summers in addition to working on his jumper.

by Sports2 on May 9, 2008 11:36 PM CDT up 0 recs

Deng and West

These two comments?
one and two

Deng did mostly play the 4 in college. However, David West was a real 4 when he got to Xavier. His offense was a back to the basket game primarily with about 8’ of range on his face up game.

Deng does have the speed to post up 4s, but like you previously mentioned in your comments he must develop lower body strength to absorb the hits from the defender.

The other thing Deng needs to work on is how to use his shoulders as the legal hook to get around defenders in the post. He seems to want to rely on the speed and footwork alone, but you have to use your shoulders. Your shoulders are your pivot for your upper body.

by NBA Observer on May 10, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up 0 recs

Yep, that's them

by Sports2 on May 10, 2008 12:25 PM CDT up 0 recs

I agree

that Tyrus can become that type of player and develop that jump shot, but if we want to be good next year, if would be nice to have somebody who can already do that and compliment Tyrus or Noah, whoever he is in the game with.

I’ve thought about the Deng thing too, but if you play him at the 3 and have him setting the ball screens, you have Tyrus and Noah in there who won’t be able to keep the floor spaced, because they can’t shoot.

I think D’Antoni wouldn’t be opposed to playing Deng at 4, like he did with Marion, but then where does that leave Tyrus? Deng is actually plenty big and long enough to defend 4’s, and then he’d have the quickness advantage on offense just like Marion did. He doesn’t rebound like Marion does though, so I don’t know if it’s possibe. The Deng & Nocioni at the combo forwards lineup that alot of people hate would actually be perfect for D’Antoni ball though. It will be interesting to see what direction they decide to go in with the roster if Mike D is hired. Alot of options…

by rb22 on May 9, 2008 11:15 AM CDT up 0 recs

Marion -> Tyrus: Rebounding

They have almost identical rebounding per36 stastistics.

I think Marion’s stats are padded by the fact that the Suns shoot more, foul less, and generally run, run, run. This fits well for Marion’s style because he’s got a knack for getting his hands or one hand on the ball no matter where it is on the floor. His is built for an uptempo system and when he’s in one he excels.

Tyrus seems to the one player that should be begging Paxson to hire D’Antoni. He would play the 4 in the same way Shawn Marion had played it for the Suns.

by NBA Observer on May 9, 2008 12:05 PM CDT up 0 recs

...which, in turn, should cause Paxson

to beg Reinsdorf for a few more million to help make his Tyrus selection pay-off.

Either way, the message is clear: Dig deeper for D’Antoni.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on May 9, 2008 12:10 PM CDT up 0 recs

Kind of

I think Tyrus is actually more of a prototype 4 than Marion. He’s a couple inches taller and a little thicker, so he’ll be better defensively against bigger 4’s than Marion was. On offense though, Tyrus needs to be able to be a perimeter threat, so he can utilize the quickness advantage he’ll have on most guys guarding him. Marion could at least knock down an occasional 3 pointer, and he could put the ball on the floor once in awhile and blow by the bigger slower guys guarding him.

So I guess I’m saying Tyrus should be better defensively guarding other 4’s than Maion, but not as good offensively until he improves his perimeter jumper and his ability to put the ball on the floor.

D’antoni would definitely be great for tyrus though.

by rb22 on May 9, 2008 12:49 PM CDT up 0 recs

The thing about having a lot of young players

is that they are inconsistent. look at Michael Jordon’s early years. everyone who saw him play knew that he was an incredible athlete. But like Sam said yesterday, everyone had a bad year last year. that is not common and unless these guys are physically hampered (like deng was last year) then the team as a whole will be a lot more competitive next year. I still think that hinrich’s fall had the biggest effect on the team. But he has never played that bad before and there is no reason to believe that he will continue to play that bad. (i hope) In either case, we go in with a more seasoned group of young players and the most talent potential this team may have ever seen. Deng, Tyrus, Gordon, Noah, Gooden, Thabo, Hinrich That’s 7 guys who should be able to start for any team and who have the potential to get a whole lot better (with the possible exception of Hinrich, we may have seen his ceiling 2 yrs ago at 17 PER)

by gman2849 on May 9, 2008 8:24 AM CDT 0 recs

Thabo could probably start for Chalon-sur-Saône or Angelico Biella

I’m still not gonna make any promises.

by hscs on May 9, 2008 8:28 AM CDT up 0 recs

hehehe... agreed

but most rookies from europe have a hard time adjusting to NBA shooting lanes. and he really only got to play in the second half of this season along an ever changing landscape with a dits of a coach.

by gman2849 on May 9, 2008 8:33 AM CDT up 0 recs

Thabo?

He couldn’t start for 1 team in the league let alone all of them. That’s a ridiculous comment. He is probably the 10th best player on our 2007-2008 roster as of right now.

by rb22 on May 9, 2008 10:06 AM CDT up 0 recs

I hope a new coach actually creates a better situation

Because the front office isn’t good at making anyone happy to have a locker in the U.C.

by hscs on May 9, 2008 8:25 AM CDT 0 recs

based on what?

Ben Wallace coming in and folding under the pressure of being “the man?” Could you expound on that, please?

2008 or bust.

by bullshooter on May 9, 2008 8:53 AM CDT up 0 recs

all the players who didn't like playing for the Bulls before Skiles was even around

Oakley, Brand, and Barry wanted to get out, or blasted the organization after leaving. Krause’s free agent problems could be related to that as well. Then the possibly turned-off-by Skiles crowd: P.J. Brown, Antonio Davis (still waiting for him to return, as promised), Chandler, lonely Russians, JYD, Mutombo refusing to come to town after being traded, etc.

The Bulls probably aren’t winning any best workplace awards.

by hscs on May 9, 2008 9:19 AM CDT up 0 recs

But

Krause is long gone; Oakley complains about everything; and several of those other players seem more turned off by the coach then by the front office. Not that I think the workplace couldn’t be improved, but if departers blasting the organization is an indicator of the front office or workplace, surely half the league has a problem.

by T Maple on May 9, 2008 11:26 AM CDT up 0 recs

Yes please

I’ll take anyone with a vision of success. I’ll take anyone that thinks of his players as humans and not just players. I’ll take anyone that’s played in the NBA or didn’t play in the NBA that is willing to trust his assistants to take the reins on offense and defense.

Most of all, I want a guy that when he’s hired will have the pull to bring in his own staff and not get suckered into shuffling the deck with the same old Bulls cards.

by NBA Observer on May 9, 2008 9:02 AM CDT up 0 recs

Honestly speaking...

The biggest contributor to Tyson’s success and NO’s d success is Chris Paul. Tyson has always been an above average help defender but now the has someone that create his offense for him he is actually is able to post double-doubles. I do not think he his gotten any better as a player but rather the players around him allow Tyson to just focus on his skill set (help defense, rebound and taking advantage of double teams/transition def). I still do not see him taking someone off the dribble, post people up, or stopping anyone in the post.

"If you're not going to compete, then I'll dominate you." MJ

by Rankdog on May 9, 2008 9:12 AM CDT 0 recs

"The biggest contributor to Tyson’s success and NO’s d success is Chris Paul."

Agreed. But I’m impressed by Tyson’s defensive efforts against Duncan; he’s doing a lot better than I expected him too. Granted this could be because of the help he’s getting from his teammates like West and Paul, Tyson’s still hanging in there taking shots from Duncan and grabbing rebounds.

I think he’s a much better rebounder and defender now than he was in Chicago, and it’s nice to see him put up double figures on the offensive end in the playoffs.

by ToroToroToro on May 9, 2008 10:19 AM CDT up 0 recs

"or stopping anyone in the post"

You’re not serious. Have you watched the playoffs at all?

by NBA Observer on May 9, 2008 10:57 AM CDT up 0 recs

Good post

Hopefully those who are in charge of Bull personel decisions
consider this bit of sound advice. But that “he” doesn’t be influenced to the point of tearingUp slobbing over missing Tyson that Jerry’s wallet flies wide open and he sells the farm on signing Deng and Gordon.

Remember this is the guy who signed Tyson to 60 million one year and then gave him away for nothing the next year.

from the Pax to the core ”...her”

by exult463 on May 9, 2008 12:12 PM CDT 0 recs

Great post.....

I often wonder do people really devalue the players on this team as much as some of the wild trade proposals. Kirk and this guy and pick for some dude, blah blah blah. Okay, look what trading away your team does for your consistency.

Look at Phoenix….how’d that Shaq deal go?
Dallas….J Kidd whats all the fuss about?
Ben Wallace…uhhh can we stop with the blockblunder trades.

A lot of guys on here want to trade Deng, want to trade Gordon, want to trade Kirk and so on…..
How many games were won last year when Gordon went on a 3pt binge?
How many mid range jumpers fell from Deng?
What defensive team did Captain Kirk make?

I even read a post giving up some of these to get Corey Maggette….lol

Sometimes your best upgrade trade may be no trade and “Wait til next year”

and as a PS I am sick and tired of coaches catching the blame for GM mistakes
D’antoni didnt ask for Shaq
Avery didnt ask for Kidd
Skiles, well if he asked for Wallace, he shouldnt have only been fired but brought up on charges

"Who did we think we were"

by Thirdrock on May 9, 2008 3:27 PM CDT 0 recs

Tyson is the same player

just with confidence and Chris Paul. There were times with the Bulls that I thought he was on the verge of breaking out, but then something would happen like an injury. But he played well the 2004-2005 season and held his own against Washington in the playoffs even without Eddy in there. But the team has effectively replaced him with Noah, and while different players, they will fill the same areas of need. This once again shows not only how important a point guard is, but how influential one can be to the development of young teammates.

It’s a shame we couldn’t see that team fully loaded in the playoffs that year. Add Eddy and Luol and I think that Bulls team could have made some noise, certainly getting out of the first round against the Wizards.

by messwiththebull on May 10, 2008 6:54 AM CDT 0 recs

I really think

We could of waited one more year. The corpse (please i dont want to hear his name) was the worst thing to happen to these Bulls and we should have a parade that we got someone to take him. The Wiz woulda never gone 4 in a row like that if Eddy and Lou werent hurt.

by TRiCioNeRo on May 22, 2008 2:17 AM CDT 0 recs