Comfortably dumbfounded
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 12:29 AM CDT
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PrintIt's still very weird to imagine. Doug Collins? Doug? Collins? This was the "new vibe" Paxson was searching for all these weeks?
It can be looked at least as a return to known competence. Any coach who isn't that last coach they had (and shall not be named) will get this team back to respectability. They're a roster too talented to be this bad, and with any kind of motivation can become a top-5 defense again. A hire of someone with any experience and talent will do that, and we can say that much for Collins.
A first-time coach could potentially do that as well, but I'm guessing that bringing in the #1 overall pick may have raised the stakes for Pax, and a first-time (or lesser-known multi-time) coach was deemed too risky.
But still: Doug Collins?
He's certainly an intelligent coach, recently evidenced by his work on TV (note: at least they didn't hire Mark Jackson). Gene Wojciechowski relays some choice quotes to support it:
The late David Halberstam once wrote of Collins: "He was passionate, extremely driven, and very bright. No one understood the flow of a game better than Collins. Sometimes it seemed to his players that he was almost too smart."
Former Collins and Bulls assistant Johnny Bach told Halberstam, "If you could call 30 timeouts a game, he'd win every game."
Unfortunately, it seems like Collins coaches as if he does have 30 timeouts a game, having his team walk the ball up so slowly he can have more than enough time to get his message in. Hollinger (and many astute commenters here noted this first, btw) breaks it down:
Collins might be the most extreme slow-pace coach in the past quarter century. I'm amazed nobody has brought this up yet -- the guy makes Jeff Van Gundy look like Paul Westhead.
His Bulls were the league's slowest-paced team in 1986-87 and 1987-88, even with Michael Jordan at the peak of his athleticism. Scottie Pippen became a starter in 1988-89, yet Collins had the Bulls playing at the third-slowest pace in the NBA.
His Pistons, with a young Grant Hill, were the league's second-slowest team in both seasons Collins coached in Detroit. And his Wizards were 26th and 27th out of 29 teams in his two years at the helm in Washington.
A big red flag for those of us who think this roster is better suited to run. A roster that will likely include Derrick Rose very soon.
One slow team I can give Collins a slight pass for is the Jordan Wiz, as he had to cater to Jordan's shot legs. Though you can consider catering to Jordan being a longstanding issue as well, especially when he insisted on relying on older talent to surround Jordan, a problem Hollinger notes has followed him through his several stops in the league (though not as much as in Washington. And, like most things, that situation can be blamed on Michael Jordan).
So this may be a return to competence, and Collins is certainly a good coach, but it's also a potential return to the same problems that doomed Skiles. Not that they're both disciplinarians (I'm fine with that), but while Collins the TV analyst seems to have mellowed with age, all I've heard of him is when he gets back in to coaching mode, he falls back into a different persona: overly intense, emotional, and stressed-out. Eventually to a fault.
Those traits of intensity, and slowing the pace, indicates a need to control. Running plays, limiting mistakes. But this roster is young, and any coach should expect mistakes. That'll be the huge test of 'the new' Doug Collins, if he even bothers to pretend that person exists. Will mistakes be expected? Or benched?
I'm afraid of another Skiles trait: an overeliance on trusted veterans at the expense of young players for the uninspiring goal of predictable mediocrity.
Sort of a parallel to what Pax wound up with in this search.
While reports were that Collins was initially contacted after Boylan was hired, that doesn't distinguish himself from what seemed like 85% of the available assistant coaches, those who wanted to coach, and those who maybe thought about coaching once they retired from playing. I may even have accidentally redirected an interview request from Pax to my spam folder. From the outset, Paxson said he had no idea what he was looking for, and after looking...and looking...it more or less turned out he indeed did, and still, had no idea. So him and Reinsdorf went with what was comfortable.
Yet I hope that comfort is only limited to Collins as a coach. In many ways I'm 'okay' with the hire for that reason. The intelligence factor has been mentioned, and he has the reputation as a teacher. But there is that other side, and I hope that wasn't glossed over by the Bulls braintrust because they felt Collins' "Chicago ties" would "resonate" with the fanbase. Sadly, with Jeff Hornacek and Tyrone Corbin, as well as nearly every former Bull mentioned as possible additions to the staff (and Pax's insistence on keeping holdovers like Myers and Adams), this begins to look like only 'Chicago guys' may apply.
There's been rumors about the new lead assistant being the eventual successor to Collins, and this hire is preemptively determined to last only a couple seasons before the groomed can take the helm. It'll be interesting to see who may get anointed, but it means Paxson didn't find his basketball soulmate in his weeks-long endless interview queue. Or at least didn't find one he felt worth risking his job to hire.
I was hoping we'd see some inspiration in the move, someone who could not only get things "back on track" but accelerate it. This just seems like a return to the old 'vibe': a coach with a shelf-life, with perhaps short-term incremental improvement, but no real vision for a championship future. Collectively they'll play hard, say 'accountability' a lot, hope it's enough to succeed, but rag on the players if it doesn't. A culture where coaching determines the talent, not vice versa.
(Seems like it, anyway.)
Getting the top pick will always mask a lot of mistakes elsewhere. So if this coaching hire is one, maybe it won't matter. Either way the result means the great coaching vision quest by Pax was a failure. This was no grand move, just one that was potentially good enough. Couldn't the same have been accomplished by hiring Rick Carlisle six weeks ago?
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we will not be
last years team.
one more year of learned experience,
our two top players looking for top contracts.
tyrus offseason number three.
Noah’s offseason number two.
and of course, a top tier player joining the fray.
say what you will, but deng gordon and hinrich have 3 years of playoff experience to hang onto.
these are points that can’t simply be ignored.
LOVE the Collins move
Collins has grown so much over the past 20 years, and deserves this shot.
I really hope
Paxson made this move in an attempt to save his job. As in, Reinsdorf said “win 50 games next year or you’re out”, and Paxson found a coach that’s a good bet to make that happen.
That’s really the only way the Collins hiring makes sense. Put him on the sidelines, the Bulls grab the #4 seed and win 50, the addition of Derrick Rose leads to another season of filled seats, and suddenly Paxson’s bought himself another two years to bring home a title. With that said, I expect Thabo and Tyrus to sit and wait for another year.
Reinsdorf has come out and said that Pax has a job for life if he wants it...
...and I believe him.
(I believe it was during the “Lunch with a Legend” segment on WMVP-1000).
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Yep
I think Paxson resigns before Reinsdorf would can him. A whole slew of negativity would have to ensue for Paxson to get fired. Reinsdorf just isn’t the firing kind of guy.
by NBA Observer on May 30, 2008 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
and Paxson seems the kind of guy
who’s getting sick of being a GM.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions
so why would you hope for that?
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Because that way
it’s just Paxson buying time, instead of Paxson being dead-set on Collins as the coach to lead us to the title.
No way....
....that conversation happened. The Bulls are not in a typical market. They don’t have to win to sell every seat. Reinsdorf wants to win, but more likely he saw big dollar signs in the sky when the Bulls landed the top pick in the draft. With Derrick Rose being the budding star from Chicago via Memphis, I suspect the dictate was more likely to pick Rose than to win 50 games. Reinsdorf wants to fill the seats.
by BullsFanInSeattle on May 30, 2008 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Collins obviously sold Paxson
he has the vision to make the most out of this team. Unless Paxson was just shining us about wanting someone with a different perspective, he would have promoted a “yes-man” assistant to carry out Paxson’s own agendas. I would expect Collins to adapt what he has done well with past teams to fit the Bulls unflinching philosophies(defense, accountability, character, etc…). Paxson should have been aware of his coaching weaknesses and been impressed at how Collins will resolve those issues with the Bulls players.
As for playing veterans ahead of youth, there isn’t as big of a gap and no player has really stood out as a leader and earned more playing time by his accomplishments.
"no player has really stood out as a leader and earned more playing time by his accomplishments"
Except for Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas, and Joakim Noah.
Noah
played more than he should have last year based on his performance, and you can’t play BG anymore than he has minutes wise. And Tyrus does as much to take himself out as he does to earn more minutes.
2008 or bust.
I guess
Thabo, Duhon, Ben Wallace, P.J. Brown, Joe Smith, and Nocioni all really earned starting spots.
and remember
they was showcasing Larry Hughes. And the Bulls pretended to pursue D’Antoni to sell season tickets. And Paxson’s just waiting until Thibodeau’s available…and whatever other crap bs says.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Disagree
Noah had the best plus-minus numbers on the team last year, and deserved to play even a little bit more.
Tyrus was second on the team in plus-minus, and nobody other than Deng or Gordon had a significantly higher PER. Tyrus does make a lot of youtful mistakes, and he doesn’t hustle anywhere near the way he should, but yanking him at every mistake is as much unforgivable petulant behavior as just about anything Tyrus has done himself the last couple of years.
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bullshooter knows that
It’s tough to argue those points. Throw in how poorly the Bulls played last season, the Michael Sweetney Experience against the Pistons in the 06-07 postseason, and Chris Duhon starting because… well, I don’t know why he ever played so much at all.
I do, I'm arguing that you can't single anybody out
as having “earned” anything from that team. Noc had a higher PER than BG for the first two thirds of the season, but I definitely don’t think he should have been starting (especially not that the 2 ;-)). And if Tyrus gets his head in the game, he is every bit the game changer that Beasley could be. They just need to do it from November on, not in March and April. Although if it gets them the first pick again, then maybe it’s a sound strategy…
2008 or bust.
Fair enough
I’d probably exclude Deng from the rest, but it’s a marginal point.
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Hollinger had a great quote about Thomas
I forget in what article, but he described Thomas as “a great young talent with a nasty habit of picking up early fouls, but never plays enough to foul out.” Perfect grasp of Boylan and Skiles’ myopia.
by OldSkoolSloan on May 30, 2008 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Maybe head coach is gone, but
I think there’s still time to hire Hollinger as an assistant.
Tyrus may thrive under DC
Not to be redundant but yesterday Ii commented that some were concerned about his impatience with younger, inexperienced players and over reliance on veterans but I believe the young talent will thrive as they see their extra efforts paying off both individually and team wise as he brings out the best of their potential which he will be able to recognize, unlike t.he buffoon who preceded him.
I remember Collins gushing over TT during a Piston/Bulls game last year saying with maturity, motivation, effort and coaching, that Tyrus had the potential to become one of the greatest defensive forwards of all time, describiing him as one of the most physically gifted athletes he had ever seen. This indicates to me that he has no intention of sticking TT at the end of the bench, wondering what his role is and why he is so hated by his coaches. I predicted this will be a breakout season for Tyrus who will be able to handle criticism if he sees the carrot at the end of the stick and all those naysayers will be eating crow about him being a wasted draft pick instead of choosing Aldridge. The rest is up to Tyrus and I see no reason Noah and Thabo won’t make giant strides under his tutelage. He will seem like a Messiah after the last 2 whose rants deflated the psyches of most of the players.
Collins knows this team has raw talent in abundance and if he can control his emotions to a reasonable level and plays his cards right, he can revitalize the Bulls and his reputation to the point of being one of the toasts of Chicago as the fans ask….. Phil who?
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
by Tyrusmancrush on May 30, 2008 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Great Call
I’m happy to hear we have a Tyrus supporter as a coach.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Haha!
“BG earned more playing time with his performance”
You’re either stupid or trying to be funnny.
He had the worst +/- per 100 pos of any player on the team BY FAR…
Let his ass walk! we’ll be better off.
Yes, but the prior year he had the 2nd best +/- of the regulars on the team (IIRC)...
...and if we take Derrick Rose, we’ll really need SOMEONE to score. If we do take Rose, I’d much rather move Hinrich than Gordon (assuming we can re-sign Gordon to a reasonable deal) for team balancing purposes. Even with expected growth from Tyrus, a Rose/Hinrich/Deng/Thomas/Noah lineup would not be very good offensively, and BG’s defensive weaknesses can be minimized with more aggressively employing Thabo against certain teams (i.e. Detroit).
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Great Summary
and lots of good information.
This slow offensive label is not so encouraging? I hope that changes?
Carlisle looks better in retrospect
but just because the guy says he’ll push the pace in Dallas does not mean he won’t be the same coach he has shown to be, either. If Carlisle gets the benefit of the doubt, the Collins should as well.
I apparently am one of the few who are not surprised by this hiring and sort of expected it, especially after seeing the names of the other candidates. I couldn’t tell if I was reading a list of coaching candidates or former 7th and 8th men.
Paxson played under Collins during the formative years of Scottie and Horace, so one should be able to assume Pax has some idea of the type of instruction and coaching at least a young Doug Collins was able to provide two up and coming youngsters. He at least has a frame of reference for this hire and one just hopes it’s not too tinted by rose colored glasses.
Who else would have sufficed as a hire and not be subject to the same 2-3 year window most people seem to label the shelf life of this hiring with? Even a guy like D”Antoni didn’t get past 4 years in Phoenix. Shelf life for a coach should not be a concern, there are only three coaches in this league with apparent absolute job security anyway.
by messwiththebull on May 30, 2008 7:14 AM CDT reply actions
Let's get the names out....
I’m thinking, Phil, Jerry, and greg…
This could be a good hire.
The Collins years were the heyday of my fandom. One of those seasons I think I watched (or heard on the radio) all but 3 of the 82 games, as well as listened to Doug’s Sunday morning radio show with Jerry Kuc. Think it was Bobby Knight who was one of the first to push him into coaching, noticing Collins with players and seeing he was a “natural teacher”. From his TV gig you can see he analyzes the flow of a game really well; he’ll develop some solid plays to get the most out of this team. Other thoughts:
—catering to Jordan: yes he did. But remember how unique a player Jordan was. We’re talking one of the GOAT, and certainly the most insanely competitive at the time. Even many seasoned vet coaches would’ve been the same (how did Kevin Loughery handle Jordan? Or Stan Albeck? Collins was an improvement). Yes Phil handled Jordan better, and it really makes you appreciate Phil’s talents. But being an assistant under Collins for a couple of years helped. TrueHoop recently knocked Collin’s intensity over PJ’s Zen calmness, but ask Horace Grant if he preferred Phil’s mindgames over Doug’s teaching.
—Collins’ intensity: yes, he’ll probably be guilty on that one. He was emotional as a coach (positive & negative), and may burn out after a couple of years. Fine. Unless you all booked the championship parade for the next two years, a temp coach isn’t a disaster: we’ll see how many rising teams have the same coach in 2011. But Skiles recently claimed he got better (and mellower) with each successive team/job and I believe it. I think Collins will be similar. He had a lot more to prove years ago as he grew into the job.
-slowing the pace: that’s a worry, because yeah, he did slow things down. And while it’s somewhat less excuseable in recent years, the league was different then. And remember those early Bulls team had NO ONE besides Jordan to score (Gene Banks? Elston Turner? Brad Sellers?). And some of the blame lied with Jordan, who also didn’t trust his teammates-something even the Zenmaster couldn’t get Kobe to do well until recently). Doug has called a bunch of Phoenix Suns games, and though he’s lamented their droughts with his “fool’s gold” line, it’s not because he didn’t see the value in an uptempo style (if you’ve got the players). I want to see an uptempo style too, but I think the D’Antoni episode made us all a lot believe that’s the only solution for this team. This can work, and w/ a good PG it can still be dynamic.
I think I’d prefer Collins over Mark Jackson, Kurt Rambis, or other newbies right now. This can be good.
That last point you made has me worried.
Why draft a stud athletic point guard if we are going to be running sets all day that are trying to feed the post.
Well, if it works for Tony Parker and Deron Williams (playing for two teams that are arguably the slowest paced teams in the league) then it could work for Rose. Unless of course they go with draft option #2.
by RogersPark Kris on May 30, 2008 7:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Watch out for what you read...
I always get a kick out of people reading an article, taking it as gospel and then worrying about it. The Hollinger article is ridiculous when one considers the teams that Collins had, not only with the Bulls, but Detroit and Washington. A good coach gets the best out of his players and while a certain style might be biased, there are adjustments.
While one would have to think that the Bulls would be a run and gun team in ‘86 to ‘88 with Jordan, the Bulls had the fleet-footed Gene Banks, Corzine, Oakley, Sellers, Cartwright and the ever creative Sam Vincent at the point. This was a team where Jordan pounded the ball and blew past you, where he pounded the ball and posted you up in Washington. Those Bulls teams though averaged, 105, 105 and 106 ppg. Not bad.
I’d like to think that Collins is somewhat like Jerry Sloan. Very good defensive coach that can change when you add a talented, creative point guard. Utah, which admittedly sucked pre-Williams, averaged 93 ppg and is now well above 100.
Good coaches play their casts the right way. The only knock on Collins for me is that he was slow to infuse Pippen and Grant early on, but he as a 36 year old coach then. Hopefully, he’s seasoned.
That might be a good example, but I'd still hold out on how much Sloan's changed.
His team has gotten considerably quicker the past two seasons, but it’s still only been 15th and 10th in pace. (oh ppg is stupid stat to use across “eras”, btw) What has changed is that his team has gone from very inefficient to number one in efficiency. That might sound like something radical, but really he’s just using the PG and PF offense he perfected before.
If one looks back, his 90’s Utah teams were up and down in pace (typically down), but always efficient. It seems to me, more than changing, he’s just instituted the offense that worked so well before, and simply hasn’t “held back” one of the youngest teams in the NBA in running every once in awhile. I suppose that’s something, but doesn’t seem like any great shakes.
So you have direct link to the Hollinger stats :)Good point on the PPG across eras...
We can debate as to why scoring is different today (one of my opinions lies in the death of the fundamentally sound ball player hitting a mid range jumper), but you’re right it’s not enormously relevant. Points aside, the Bulls were a top 10 offensive team during the Collins era and top 5 in defense.
The NBA was a much faster league when Dougie was first with the Bulls
Then he came back to the Pistons in the mid 90’s, when Riley and his overcoaching ilk had sucked the air out of the ball, and Collins’s teams were still amongst the slowest in the NBA. The same held true in Washington. The notion that the Bulls need to play at a fast pace has nothing to do with aesthetics and has been around for the last few seasons. The current composition of the roster doesn’t lend well to a slow paced game. There’s no one who can create their own shot in the waning seconds of the shot clock. While Rose might help improve that situation, that’s a lot to put on the shoulders of a 19 year old rookie PG.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Accountability
Am I the only one fed up with that concept?
Does this mean that Pax will eventually trade the 1st pick for Seattle´s 4th plus Adrian Griffin?
Daddy, hold me….
Yes and no
I’m fed up with lip-service paid to accountability.
Actual accountability would be a welcome change
But for once...
Wouldn´t it be nice to have a coach willing to let players play through their mistakes?
I don´t know who will Pax draft (I would trade for the 2nd pick and get both) but will he bench Rose or beasley (or God willing both) because they screw up?
I think accountability works with proven veterans that don´t give a s*. For example in Detroit. However, we are the youngest team in the league.
I know this will sound cheesy but: “Let the kids play!!”
Deal isn't done yet
I wouldn’t assume Collins is going to be the coach yet. Listening to him on TNT last night, and looking at the somewhat angry Paxson press release yesterday, I think there’s a fair chance someone just blew the lid off this before it was a story. OK, I don’t know that I believe that, but I guess I’m hoping for it.
As far as Collins as coach, I’m not sure how I feel about it. It’s as if Paxson has looked around and thrown his hands up in the air and given up on finding someone he really wants.
I can partially understand that since I was advocating, at this point, a guy like Van Gundy. The last thing we need is another inexperienced guy. Collins is at least experienced.
On the other hand, people might forget his history of sucking the joy out of life for his players. Ironically, I’ve been around for all his coaching stops. I was in Chicago for his first tour with the Bulls. In Michigan when he coached the Pistons. In DC when he coached the Wizards. The common denominator was that he put a pretty good team on the floor and is a good xs and os coach that will quickly turn his players against him. In none of the places I’ve seen him have I seen anyone upset he was gone.
My hope, and semi-theory, is that this is a short-term plan and Pax is also bringing in a protege (although any protege is going to come with the baggage of having to replace Collins from within the staff, which seems difficult to me). When I write it out, I can’t think of many instances of that being successful.
OK, I hope they botch this like they botched D’Antoni.
That was Paxson's only real mistake
Not having a guy on the bench waiting to take over when Skiles inevitably burned his bridges. And if the coaching search provides any value, it will be the guy to groom to take over in a couple of years when Collins burns out again.
2008 or bust.
Watching the post game banter with Collins and Marv Alberts last night
I started dreaming of a scenario of Paxson cutting off talks with Collins as a way to teach the media a lesson about spreading their lies and innuendo that prevent him from doing his job. I’m holding out hope until they have a press release officially naming Collins the coach.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
if they don't hire Collins
well…that’d be something.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions
I would actually admire Paxson
Just because it would be epic if the Bulls were able to fire 2 coaches, tank a season, get the #1 overall pick, miss out on D’Antoni, somehow get snubbed by Avery before getting the #1 pick, interviewing every person alive with basketball experience, allowing every basketball writer and pundit to think for 2 days Collins would be the next coach, only to turn around and say “I’m John Paxson bitch, these be rumors.”
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on May 30, 2008 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Ozzie you have a vivid imagination
Do you watch many Cowboy movies or the Terminator series often?
Do you often mistake the name “Wayne for Paxson” or “Conner for Paxson”
Pax would never say the “B” word!
More realistic comparision of Paxson handling a situation would be another fellow also name John who starred in the ABC-TV’s sitcom which aired from 1977-1984 called Three’s Company.
Like Paxson, Ritter found making a easy decision difficult …. “should it be Crissy or Janet”, when he easily could have both. :) I meant (Rose and Beasley)
What happened to hiring a coach to fit the roster?
Did Paxson focus on the “teacher” part because all his players are such insufferable idiots who just don’t get it, and then completely forget the rest of Collins’ reputation about not letting talent run free.
Right, Paxson. Worry more about the personality of your players than what they can actually do with a basketball. I’m very inspired by this move and have no hope of being excited. I guess that at least rules out “worrying” about this team for the next couple of years.
D'oh
I saw the title in my RSS reader and thought this was a thread on last night’s Lost finale. Oh well.
Not sure how I feel about the Collins hire. He is a great basketball mind, but reading Hollinger’s take made me nervous. The last thing we need is to slow the pace down. On the rare occasions we did score last year, it was usually on the break. Collins seems to be the polar opposite of D’Antoni in that regard. (Whom I think would have been a perfect fit for an already good defensive team with scoring issues.) Also making me nervous is Hollinger’s point about Collins sticking to vets. Can we expect Pax to sign more washed up vets in the offseason to play along side Hughes and Gooden. God, I hope not. Finally, in When Nothing Else Matters, the book about Jordan’s years in Washington, the author seemed to paint Collins as a high-strung nut who wore on his players sooner rather than later. Exactly what we need!
Mike A.
that book does Collins few favors
he really does come off as a nutcase.
As for the vets…at least the Bulls have a pretty full roster already, so Devean George likely isn’t walking through that door.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Hanley on the score
“this is an easy sell”
Sorry, but doesn’t that just portray the lot of Bulls fans as dolts? (Are we?)
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 10:11 AM CDT reply actions
Current Trib pole has 70% or respondents in favor of hiring Collins
Prior to that, Avery Johnson was the favorite. I would say, on average, most fans are stupid enough to buy into the screaming and accountability and veteran bs that guys like Avery and Dougie stand for. Got to whip those immature, young millionaires into shape.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
eh
I don’t think just because someone is in favor of the hire (me being one of them) ultimately means that most fans are “stupid” and that they are “buying into” something (note – I definitely don’t take offense to what you said).
I look at this hire exactly what I believe it to be, a band-aid. A 2-3 year one. Were there fresher, less nervous, and less of a nutcase candidates available? Of course. Would they have been as experienced, as knowledgedable, and as able to run a team? Maybe, most likely no.
I don’t think this is a “let’s whip them into shape” thing. I just think it’s more of a “let’s get back on track” thing. I could care less about pace as long as it equals more wins. If they climb back to respectability next season and get up and around the 50-win plateau again, but play a slow grind in the process, it obviously doesn’t matter. It looks like he was brought in to kinda restore order, and nothing with his previous coaching stops says that he won’t do that.
by NormVanBeer on May 30, 2008 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
yeah, but what 'track'
the track turned out to be pretty dead-ended. The team was getting pretty good but were any of the players that much better? They needed to go in a new direction that’d actually try and maximize what was there, instead of squeezing it until it bled.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
i feel you
but even still, there IS a track to be gotten back on. A 16-game loss difference in one season is huge. I think he’ll get them back on the 49-win track again, or at least close to it.
All-in-all, I still think he’s going to be the Point A to Point B coach again. But this time, everybody already knows it.
by NormVanBeer on May 30, 2008 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I expect they
should be getting back to .500+, given the addition of pick #1 and Collins (admitted) positives. What’s so great about that, if he repeats past tendencies by sacrificing Tyrus and Thabo PT to Gooden and Hughes, for example?
It’s this kind of short term thinking that really gets me, and that I’m afraid Pax is guilty of (forgive me if that’s not the case here w/ you, Norm). What’s so bad about committing to the youth for real, not like Skiles’/B_ _ _’s start-Thomas-a-few-only-to-bench-him-more-than-a-few-BS of last year. Would it be so awful to suck for the first half and come on like gangbusters the 2nd, like Philly did? Even if it didn’t happen that way, it figures to the following year. Pax has got to take a meaningful, patient look at these kids. If not for their sake, then for his.
My initial reaction was similar to yours, but I could only make it last a few moments. The pace issue doesn’t really bother me, ‘cause it means the D is sure to return. (And plenty of transition basket excitement). But I wanted a coach that 1) would use the “right” players and 2) had an easier going demeanor (after Skiles). I just don’t trust Collins’ has suddenly taken to the practice of meditation, and that he’ll play the kids, regardless.
But the big impression is that this is further evidence of Paxson’s complete lack of vision. Even more than before, Pax should be thinking 3+ years ahead after getting Rose/Beasley, and thinking in terms of dominating the East, not just getting back on track.
I read and understand your post comment. In fact, I’ve reread it in the hope that it rubs off on me. I really wish I shared your optimism, NVB.
The public wants what the public gets....
so if I understand you
you’re saying that you would rather have Tyrus and Thabo play a lot of minutes and the team be crappy instead of them playing lesser minutes and the team be good?
We already tried
limiting Tyrus and Thabo and we lost out last year. Nuff said there. Perhaps if we had someone better than them to play, but I would argue that Hughes and Gooden are not those people. Then we are talking about players that are not even on the team. We have who we have and Tyrus and Thabo are better than their counterparts for the Bulls at this time. Win or lose. Putting time in them is an investment. Putting time into Hughes for example would be throwing it away.
wow dude
you just totally missed the point. Get off of the Tyrus and Thabo train for long enough to see the point. I wasn’t saying that he SHOULD limit Tyrus and Thabo. It was hypothetical. The point was that IF he did limit them, but at the same time, the Bulls happened to improve, would it be looked at as a failure? I say no. But obviously others say yes, which I don’t understand.
improve to what?
2nd round flameout again? I’d still consider that a failure.
In fact any scenario where Thomas doesn’t turn out to be great (or turned into something great) is less than ideal. He’s one of the few (plus another guy coming soon) who could project to be standouts on a title contender. Thabo I don’t expect to improve much anyway.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions
improve in win total
anything more than 33 will be an improvement.
Honestly, whether it was Collins, Rambis, Shaw, Carlisle, or Avery…did you think they would get past the 2nd round next season?
You've never heard of
losing a battle, but winning the war?
The public wants what the public gets....
So you'd rather
win 50 games each year and lose in the 2nd round than win 40 next year, but with a better chance at 55-60 and a championship down the road?
Getting a better coach improves the win total.
Tyrus and Thabo could get injuries and be out for the entire year and they would still win more than 33. You really shouldn’t look at that as a good thing.
exactly.
non-B_y__n coach gets more wins.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Tyrus and Thabo
play a lot of minutes = “team be good”.
Versus Gooden and Hughes play a lot of minutes = “team be crappy”.
Seriously, if Tyrus and Thabo make the team crappy (inconceivable!), it’s no great loss given the ceiling the mediocre veterans on this team possess. Is that understandable?
The public wants what the public gets....
Basically,
I feel your (hypothetical) better Bull team would be illusory.
The public wants what the public gets....
Since I hadn't checked the +18 win gain in Washington
The Wiz did only win 19 games the prior year and upon adding Collins as the head coach he grew that to 37 wins.
When you win 19 in one season it’s easy to see any kind of gain particularly when you add Jordan to the roster.
by NBA Observer on May 30, 2008 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions
basketball-reference.com says yes
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2002.html
I thought Collins coached for three seasons in Washington. Like you, I thought his first season was without Jordan and then Jordan unretired for the final two seasons. However, the first year that Jordan was part owner of the Wiz he hired Leonard Hamilton as the coach. He fired him after one season and then hired Collins. Jordan played for the Wiz in the two seasons that Collins coached.
by NBA Observer on May 30, 2008 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
so if
the Wiz had won 30 games before Collins and then went up to 49 wins after he arrived, that wouldn’t have been looked at as a good gain? Point is, 19 games is 19 games. It’s an improvement no matter how many wins you had previously.
no it's not
getting from 30 to 49 is easier than getting from 49 to 60, IMO
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly, Skiles squeezed them till they no longer wanted to pay the price
since he was better at pointing fingers than distributing praise. Collins will revitalize them with new approaches that promise a brighter future. By the time he wears out his welcome, they will once again be on the fast track seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. I would not be surprised if Kurt Rambis will eventually lead them to the promised land after DC flames out and returns to the microphone (assuming Pax has provided the missing pieces in the interim).
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
by Tyrusmancrush on May 30, 2008 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Hanley said the same thing to Dan Patrick
A sell to whom though. Sponsors? Season ticket holders? Reinsdorf?
by NBA Observer on May 30, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Anyone else in Bulls history we can dust off and bring back?
Doug Collins? Check.
Chuck Swirsky? Check.
I’m hip to a return of Rod Thorn to run the team.
not too long ago
Brought back Tommy Edwards as well…
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions
let's be fair
If the Bulls can’t afford to play game film for their players, or print playbooks, you know the guy is putting rosters on cocktail napkins. Those are hard to read, and Tommy is perfect with names after the 3rd or 4th try.
i'll give you that
but what’s his excuse for his dated delivery? Ex: Ben hits a three – Tommy says: Threeee point field goal, for Ben Gordon!”
Come on! Can’t we at least get something along the lines of “BGGGGGGGGG for threeeeeeee!” I’m not saying he has to be as obnoxious as Detroit’s PA guy, or as corny as the Bobcats guy (“Lets go Cats, lets go Cats!”) but at least add a bit of flair. It’s 2008 for crying out loud.
by NormVanBeer on May 30, 2008 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Reinsdorf could be apologetic and bring back Ray Clay
Frrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrom Pittsburgh, at center, 7’0, Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaron Grayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on May 30, 2008 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Where's Wayne Messner?
We’re taking the entire Bulls ship back to 1985.
by NBA Observer on May 30, 2008 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
he still sings
at Cubs games. Did so at Brewer/Cubs game awhile back and let to a 20 minute discussion on a Madison Sports radio show if Messner is a good singer or a hack. Reviting.
by KT on May 30, 2008 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions
should have
gave the job back to red kerr. then we’d have all the aaron gray we need..
I don't know what to put there...
Just what we need
He was the best candidate out there…
Rose and Beasley were interviewed by the media.. Beasley sounds like an asshole…Rose sounds like a king of guy paxson would love!
interesting article
I was already pro-Rose, but after reading this, I’m even more so. I think Beasley is correct in saying that he’s “just a kid”, but he doesn’t even sound anywhere close to being contrite for his past mess-ups. Stay away.
by NormVanBeer on May 30, 2008 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
ok with the choice
When I first heard about Collins’ hiring, I was sort of upset. The more I think about it, the more I am OK with it. After this awful season, I don’t see how a “nobody” (i.e., no head coaching experience) like Kurt Rambis, Del Curry or Tom Thibodeau could come in and immediately grab the attention of the uninspired players currently on the Bulls roster. I have the same concerns as everyone else about Collins’ pacing and potentially intense personality, but I think that the players will listen to him (for this season, at least) solely on the basis of Collins being a “name” coach—something that could not be said of the losers coaching the Bulls last season.
There has been a lot of talk about Collins being fired previously for being the “point A to point B” coach, but not the “point C” coach. Not sure why anyone should care about that since this team is not close to contending for a championship anytime soon. Collins’ role now is to get the team back to respectability and groom some of the kids to become real players. That’s a low bar, but a necessary step for this team and something I think Collins is well-suited for. He’ll be long gone before the Bulls can truly contend for a title.
Hornacek to be Collins Assistant
Update: A source close to the situation has told HOOPSWORLD that Jeff Hornacek will likely be lead assistant for the Bulls under the new Doug Collins regime in Chicago. The same source went on to suggest that Collins may be a short-term solution for the Bulls, while Hornacek-under Collins’ guidance-would be the long-term solution for Chicago’s head coaching position.
Anyone see a pattern here?
You know, I’m not going to ascribe anything to race, to culture, or anything like that. I don’t think it’s a matter of any of those things. But can we at the same time just acknowledge the fact that if these guys all seem to be coming from a pretty similar place and point of view?
Most coaches are
How many coaches were superstars or primma donnas? Phil Jackson, Byron Scott, Mo Cheeks, Greg Popovich…..these guys were noted for either unselfish play, tough defense, or just being all-around scrappers (Except Pop who never played in the NBA).
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on May 30, 2008 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, there ya go.
That pretty much makes it… well, at least there seems to be a plan for the future. Maybe Horny will be the next Phil Jackson. Or the next Jerry Sloan.
Paxson did find his soulmate to coach the team--
it was Scott Skiles.
But then Paxson threw it all into reverse by bringing in a washed-up and undersized defensive specialist as the free agent savior. This was what doomed the team’s development (“utter speculation alert!”)—not the 3-year’s and you’re out timeframe of tuning out a demanding coach.
As said by others on here, now that Wallace is gone, the Bulls need someone who can coach a drive-and-kick, potent offense with a perimeter attack, someone like Scott Skiles. They are bound to dominate, as long as they have either (1) a dependable low-post threat, or (2) an uber-athletic guard who can take it to the rim on any given play. They will have one of these two things with the #1 pick.
They need Skiles. So bringing in a Skiles-like guy is fine.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
Skiles had no input on bringing in Wallace?
He put on those jeans too.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Enough blame to go around, to be sure.
Point remains, though, that Skiles would be perfect for this team. Or Skiles v2.0.
And I really don’t buy that 3-years-and-you’re-out theory of intense coaches, at least, not in this instance. Without the Wallace debacle, the Bulls may not have tuned out Skiles (and/or he may not have quit on the franchise by saying we don’t have the manpower to get it done).
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
Then let's get Larry Krystowiak!
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on May 30, 2008 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't know enough about Larry K--
is he steely-eyed and intense in the face of questioning by reporters? Can he wax sarcastic while resisting any temptation to smile at all? Can he walk around like he’s the toughest guy on the team, even tho he’s wearing a suit on the sidelines? If so, he’s our man!
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
Ya know... it might not be the end of the world.
If Collins is such a great teacher (which everyone says so), that’s got to be good. Maybe he’s a team-game guru. Hopefully, the Bulls will allow the players to visit personal-game gurus during the off-seasons.
I really didn’t “respect” Skiles’ X’s and O’s on offense or defense. Maybe they need to be taught ALL aspects of basketball.
Comes with the territory
Listening to Joe Abunasser talking about Kevin Love and Joe Alexander makes me think today’s draft prospect is taught almost everything about the NBA right before they are drafted.
Here’s how to eat.
Here’s how to train.
Here’s how to jump.
Here’s how to recover.
This is a basketball. You put it inside that orange ring 10 feet off the ground. Go.
by NBA Observer on May 30, 2008 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Just adding to your thought
Maybe they need to be taught ALL aspects of basketball.
They do. They’re 19. Mom can’t make you do anything anymore.
by NBA Observer on May 30, 2008 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanx for the points on Collins
Because I flat out couldn’t think of a real reason why bringing in Collins made any long term sense. Which then of course, begs the question, why would Collins want to step in a short term situation?
Either way thanks for putting it in perspective.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
reason's include:
Salivating at the mouth with so much young talent and a star coming in to play. (more then he had with bulls 1.0 but not as great as MJ of course)
Wants to prove that he can take a team to the top.
right his legacy here in chicago and as a coach nationally.
Sam Smith
Yuck:
Paxson clearly has been flummoxed in his coaching search after D’Antoni went to the Knicks. Paxson has sought out assistants, but it seems clear he has misgivings about turning over his young talent to someone inexperienced. Thus, it’s Collins to the rescue of a friend. There’s perhaps no more credible coaching figure available.Paxson was extremely close to Collins when he played for him, so much so that Bulls teammates would kid Paxson about it. Moreover, Paxson has a Collins-like attitude, a player without great athletic ability who made more of his talent than most expected. The two were brothers in overachieving.
Glad the Bulls can participate in Collins’ redemption tale. Apparently they don’t feel these next couple years matter much. This ‘band aid’ idea kindof sucks.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 2:12 PM CDT reply actions
THEY GOTTA KEEP HINRICH NOW
He fits thier mold perfectly… almost, all they gotta do is push him to overachieve for the rest of his career and bam, its a trio of “brothers”, its like a tradition, from Collins to paxson, and now from paxson to hinrich…yes its all coming together muwahahaha (does an evil laugh). Hinrich is staying, this confirms it
im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.
We're cornering the market
in the white, American born, NBA guard market.
Where’s Mark Price? Does Stockton want to coach? Let’s find a way to get every single remaining white, american born NBA guard.
by NBA Observer on May 30, 2008 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions
NOW YOUR JUST BEING CRAAAAZY
Matt should be sort of happy, the more other people use that “best white americna pg in the nba” bit the less i want to… (although the fact that other people are starting to use it just might annoy him even more)
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
I've heard Price's name mentioned
but really, isn’t Jeff Hornacek enough for you?
Look at the oozing killer instinct!
meh
I wanted Brian Shaw. I like guys that have been around Phil Jackson and Tex Winter.
by NBA Observer on May 30, 2008 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Well then Doug is right up your alley
Too bad not in the way you wanted.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on May 30, 2008 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
This is what I meant about a pattern.
Pax seems unwilling to have a coach who doesn’t look and act just like John Paxson. He seemed that he was going to take a chance on D’Antoni, a guy who had some philosophical differences, and since he got burned there, he’s retracting back to a guy who’s pretty much a clone. Hell, he’s even lining up yet another clone for the next coach after collings.
Maybe he could Clone us
A few jordans and pippens while hes at it…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
I must be missing something because I think Collins - Hornacek is a perfect solution.
We need to get out of last year’s funk. Collin’s track record with the Pistons and Wizards is he noticeably improves teams. I agree with Paxson’s reluctance to hire someone who has not been a head coach. I’ve heard nothing but good things about Hornacek. Collins may only want to do this for a finite period of time. Hornacek can make his job easier and yet learn from him as he is groomed to succeed Collins. It a win-win to me!
This is a good hire.
Collins is a smart coach who can make detailed in game adjustments, that by in large make sense; which one could suggest was the biggest flaw in Skiles skillset.
I also must note that the Celtics, Spurs and Pistons were 19th, 28th and 30th in pace rating respectively. Speed does not inherently breed wins and I think that is clear since the Bulls were in the upper third in pace but couldn’t make the playoffs over the Hawks, Sixers, Pacers or Nets.
can people stop saying this?
who says pace equals wins? The point is this roster is not suited for a slow pace, at least not yet.
if they got to 19th in pace we could rename Collins ‘jackrabbit’
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
The discussion of pace is pointless....
...whether it’s in relation to winning OR to the Bulls’ current roster.
Championship teams have a slower pace, in general. The Bulls’ current roster is not suited for a slow pace. Therefore, one way to fix that would be to re-tool the Bulls’ roster to get them to play slower, or to get the current players to play slower.
But the solution of ‘The Bulls need to play fast, so let’s get them a fast-paced coach’ ignores the fact that fast-paced teams, by and large, don’t win championships. So the statement above could be re-written “this roster is not suited to win games nor championships”.
The key isn’t to get the Bulls’ roster to play faster or slower; the key is to get them to play at a pace wherein they win games. And being that most winning teams have a relatively slow pace – maybe the best route for the Bulls is to get a coach that can teach them to win at a slow pace?
And in any case – ‘slow pace’ and ‘half-court sets’ scream ‘elite PG’ to me, not ‘undersized PF’. So even if Doug Collins’ game-flow is slower than molasses, it still makes me think the Bulls are going to pick Derrick Rose. And picking Rose over Beasley is far more important for the future than Collins or D’Antoni or Thibodeau – so I’m okay with slowing it down, as long as we go slow with Rose.
by BullsFanInSeattle on May 30, 2008 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions
teams with good offenses win championships
I don’t think they’ll be a good offense playing slow.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions
also
they’re not winning a title next year anyway. So there’s other priorities, like getting value back up for the roster, and developing the younger talent. I think a faster pace would do that.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm behind all of those reasons
But given that – they’re not winning a title next year, and they need to rebuild the value of their roster and develop their young talent- then hiring Doug Collins doesn’t sound like a such a bad idea. The pace question, of course, remains a concern, but only a peripherally.
by BullsFanInSeattle on May 30, 2008 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Arguing whether or not...
the team is suited for fast or slow play is really quite stupid. We have had four seasons with “fast play” and they have won a series against a crippled Heat team, which is hardly evidence that this team needs to be playing in any specific way.
I once read about an experiment in which a tiny newborn kitten,
before its eyes were even opened, was placed in an environment entirely made up of horizontal bars. As the kitten grew and matured it became incredibly adept at maneuvering in its artificial horizontal environment.
One day, the experimenters lifted the cat from its safe little home and transferred it to a room containing nothing but vertical bars. Immediately, they noticed something strange. The cat high-stepped around the enclosure, paws raised at an oddly high angle—as though it was trying to step over obstacles that weren’t there.
But that wasn’t the strangest thing. Time after time, the cat would run headlong into one of the vertical bars, bonking itself in the head, as though it had no idea the bar was even there.
When the cat was autopsied and its eyes dissected, it was discovered that indeed, the physical structure of the eye had developed in such a way as to make the cat actually blind to vertical stimuli; It could only see what it had gotten used to seeing when its experience of the world was first forming.
What made me think of this was that the cat’s name was Matt.
Doug Collins is a great hire…in part, because of the mostly unmeasurable qualities he brings that the team has recently lacked.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
That was Awesome
I have no idea what it has to do with anything (basketball related or otherwise) but awesome indeed.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
yeah you can look for it someday soon
at alec’s new home.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions
they didn't have derrick rose
and had the ‘old man du jour’ frontcourt.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions
and
what you’re implying is that the Bulls didn’t win enough in recent years because they played at a fast pace.
Clearly, I’m speculating when saying they’re a roster better suited to run, and if you’re saying it’s a stupid point of view, I disagree, but moreso if you’re saying the entire ‘argument’ is stupid to bring up.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Teams with...
Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Young Shaq and Michael Jordan win championships.
Dominant players win, the Bulls don’t have that player yet.
i'm a little worried about the pace
but i’m more worried about his reputation with young players. he’s known as a “teacher” yet everything i’ve read doesn’t give an indication he is good with rookies.
we don't really have a young team
We have a few veterans making big money (Hughes, Gooden, Hinrich), and a couple of young vets (Gordon, Deng) who will be gunning for big money this year. The question about Collins is not about his ability to teach legitimately young guys like TT and Noah. The question is what he can get out of a very mismatched roster whose two key players have their eyes on contract extensions.
vanillablue.wordpress.com
not really
Hinrich and Gooden are most likely to be out after the season (or before). Hughes is (or at least should) be considered merely a walking contract.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions
for what?
All 3 of those guys have little trade value right now, and will need to play (and play well) to be tradable. So even if they won’t be with us for long, Collins will need to get something out of the vets while placating Gordon and Deng.
vanillablue.wordpress.com
to clarify
This assumes our plan is to keep Deng and Gordon and get rid of Hinrich/Hughes/Gooden. After what’s happened this offseason, I wouldn’t assume anything about Pax’s plan, even its existence.
vanillablue.wordpress.com
When will
this whole collins thing become official? Shouldn’t we be hearing word some time soon if it’s as sure of a thing as people are making it sound? Why does Sam Smith sound so pessimistic that this is gonna go down?
I think it's coming soon
Harper seems to be letting on a little:
“There are all these jobs out there,” said Harper, who won three championships with the Bulls. “There are none like being at home again. They have a good young team there. They have a good head basketball coach.”Harper, who never played for Collins, kept referring to him as the Bulls’ head coach even though there was no announcement.
by NormVanBeer on May 30, 2008 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions
The Suns think we pulled off a coup!
The Arizona Central sounds like we did after D’Antoni went to the Knicks
And, if we’ve learned anything from this Collins affair, it’s that the Suns just aren’t as hot as they used to be.
As for Chicago . . .The parties of both parts (the Bulls and Collins) released statements indicating that they have not reached an agreement.
But we don’t doubt for a minute that they will, and there is speculation that the Bulls might have a plan that is not unlike something we suggested recently here for the Suns: Hire Collins to be the coach for three to four years with the idea that he will mentor a young coach to eventually step in.
Based on Collins’ history, and his recent insistence that he wants to spend time with his kids and grandkids, it makes sense.
...Whatever the plan, the Bulls have pulled off a coup. But we can’t help but wonder why the Suns couldn’t pull one off here.
Do all sport fans
Doubt thier teams actions and praise the actions of other teams???? Well i guess Portland would be the exception (or so a few bloggers coughMORTIMERcough have shown me)
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
You were around for "In Pax We Trust"
Phoenix Fans have good reason to doubt the future of their team.
formerly sbulls
when's the last time a 'succession plan'
was pulled off? One especially where everyone knows, possibly even the man himself, that the guy coming in is going to go soon?
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 7:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not sure he even knew he was hired
let alone when he was going to get fired. It was all just a means to nicorrette gum.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 7:58 PM CDT up reply actions
The Dallas Mavericks
When Don Nelson was coaching and Avery Johnson was waiting in the wings. I’m pretty sure it was assumed that Avery would take over once Nellie left the team.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 30, 2008 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions
did Nellie know he was leaving?
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions
didn't finish that thought
point is, I don’t think that was pre-planned. Nelson sure didn’t seem to think so with the millions left on his contract that he eventually sued for.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Yea, I agree..
but I am positive that it was widely known that Avery would be stepping in eventually. So maybe it was a situation where they just decided to let him go earlier than expected.
by Juiceboxjerry on May 30, 2008 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions
that was more because Riley's a flake
and also the team president. Plus nobody heard of these guys before Riley left. Whoever the Bulls bring in will be anointed ‘coach of the future!’
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 30, 2008 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions
So...
anyone else the least bit worried about what Joey Dorsey said? (of course, only if you want rose)
Tyrus Thomas
-"Million dollar talent, ten cent head."
Nah.
I think chad Ford had the Rose/Beasley interviews pretty well nailed when he said Beasley answered a question what he thought about playing for Miami—”and he answered by referencing the beach.”
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
Beasley didn't seem contrite
He may’ve just been immature. But I’m pretty sure I would’ve been presented with a bill for bodywork if I wrote my name on my H.S. principal’s car with a Sharpie. Who paid for the cleaning of everything he autographed? Does he think the people who had to clean it up were having fun?
When asked why he is so immature, Beasley responds “How mature do you want me to be?”
I’m so glad that Beasley isn’t the only top-shelf prospect in this draft. I think the Bulls and Derrick Rose were meant to be. The only bad part of the whole deal is the prospect of playing against Wade & Beasley. That’s going to be one heck of a tandem.
by BullsFanInSeattle on May 30, 2008 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm fine with Wade/Beasley
Rose has more upside and will be the better in the long term.
One thing I'm tired of is that
every time someone writes an article on the Collins hiring, they inevitably mention D’Antoni spurning the Bulls. True. However: D’Antoni’s system couldn’t win playoff basketball games even with Nash, Stoudemire, Marion, Joe Johnson, Barbosa. If four allstars, including an MVP, can’t make a system work…the system don’t work.
I’m going to give this a chance and stay optimistic. An 18 game turn-around sounds pretty good right about now.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
The system works fine, they've just been beaten by better teams
Plus, they’ve had their fair share of bad luck in the playoffs. D’Antoni’s first year, they lost Joe Johnson to an eye injury during the playoffs. The next year, Stoudamire’s out and they still get to the Conference Finals. Then, last year, they have the debacle with Stoudamire and Diaw getting suspended two games. Plus, don’t give Steve Nash too much credit, as he was a pretty crappy choice as MVP both years.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Stoudamire and Diaw
both got one game.
Horry got two. (Good deal for him and the Spurs)
And Nash was worthy of the MVP both years he got it. And within and inch of the third one.
The Suns should have won it last year. If the League hadn’t fucked it up. And this year Garnett gets away with pushing a ref?? Makes me sick to my stomach…
The system can work
As snley pointed out, they’ve had some rotten luck, and management did themselves no favors with a ton of blunders. Letting Joe Johnson walk away, signing Boris Diaw to a ludicrous extension, signing Marcus Banks, trading away the Luol Deng and Rajon Rondo picks, and trading Kurt Thomas and 2 1st rounders. Look at that list. They let an All-Star in JJ go, a draft pick where they could have gotten Deng or Iggy and shored up perimeter defense, let go one of the best veteran defenders and rebounders in Thomas, and could have gotten Rondo, who’s not an All-Star but is damn good defensively.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on May 31, 2008 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Excellent list of points
Those suspensions probably changed the Suns history forever. I wish Kerr the best, and they probably did miss their window, as they (Nash) were beginning to show signs of wear and tear. Still, if Stern either suspended nobody, or added Duncan and Bowen for the same offense earlier…
Apart from that, you’re right on the money; mgt can look in the mirror.
by California Al on May 31, 2008 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
How is it that
everyone is so sure that Rose is gonna be such an amazing player? I mean I like Rose too, but prior to the tourney Beasley was a lock for #1 and had a better season than Durant did. It has to be that he’s from Chicago otherwise theres no way people could be so lopsided on what is a very difficult choice.
Size matters
Both Rose and Beasley have dominated for as long as anyone can remember. But to project that continued domination into the NBA, most people will choose a 6’3” PG over a 6’8” PF.
I think Rose will be able to physically dominate the majority of his PG competition on both ends of the floor. With Beasley, I’m not at all sure.
by BullsFanInSeattle on May 31, 2008 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Not really
If Miami or Minnesota had the 1st pick, and you took a poll of their fans, it’d be even more lopsided in favor of Rose.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on May 31, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions
What is all this..
“slow down” bullshit coming out of bulls camp regarding the Collins hire? KC Johnson writes that Paxson is still planning on interviewing at least one more candidate. Are you frickin kidding me?
I mean, I understand it’s an important decision and you have to be thorough, but they’ve already interviewed every coach that’s ever held a basketball. This is a premium head coaching position and this is getting (already gotten) very stupid. There is NO WAY they will not give Collins the job after all of the “he’s hired’ storys have already been written and printed. Not after the same thing just happened with the coach who’s name we shall not mention.
So the only thing that is happening now is they are further perpetuating the common thought that the Bulls as an organization are EXTREMELY indecisive and move slower than dirt. Pretty soon we’re gonna get the whole “Bulls aren’t sold on Collins?” angle, which will take all of the air out of the balloon of positivity (Mostly) that they created.
Collin’s is the guy and everyone appears to know it. So unless every single news publication in the country is wrong, make it official! Enjoy the fact that the Bulls are being talked about around the league, instead of shunning the spotlight and getting angry every time a new mock draft is released. This should be a fun time for the Bulls and their fans and you’re turning it into the Watergate scandal! Enough already! Hire the guy so we can finally get to the part where Kirk Hinrich is traded.
My guess
is that it’s about his contract to the network. And Pax and Jerry and he still need to hammer out their own contract; that takes time. Lastly, I’d be surprised if Paxson wasn’t still looking at potential members of Collins’ staff. He’ll have input in that too, of course, but Pax need to do his famous “due diligence.”
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Yes, but..
if he is their guy why even add some unecessary intrigue by saying you’re gonna interview other candidates. Just seems dumb to me.
I'm sure Paxson is spending more time and effort...
...finding out who leaked the info than he is doing his due diligence.
one more person
“One person familiar with the Bulls’ plans said one such interview involves a veteran coach that nobody has identified that would be surprising.”
========
Hmmm…Fratello maybe?
I think what’s going on here is that Pax is giving Collins
a first hand experience of what a "slow-down" really feels like.
"How’s it feel, Doug? Is this the kind of offense you wanna run? Maybe you’d like it better if we sped things up a little."
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
lol
this whole thing just seems really strange though. Two days ago the word coming from both sides wasn’t only that they were interested, but that Collins was EXPECTED to be the coach. Now the slow down. Seriously, this looks EXACTLY how the D’Antoni situation went. They’ve honestly interviewed everyone who needs to be interviewed. Those two are ridiculous. I honestly hope in the next day or so that Collins changes his mind. Not because I don’t want him to be the coach, but just because I want Paxson and Reinsdorf to feel the pain of hesitation again. ::song & dance:: ::dawdle dawdle::
by NormVanBeer on May 31, 2008 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Right, what the hell are they waiting for?!!!
by Juiceboxjerry on May 31, 2008 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions
What are they("Bulls") waiting for ...
The Suns to sign Collins instead, after it was stated he had more interests in coaching the Bulls roster while the Suns boldly put the offer on the table.
Hopefully a better candidate
This hasn’t gotten much attention, but I really don’t understand why the Bulls didn’t simply say “we aren’t even finished interviewing candidates” or something to that effect a few days ago.
Collins has been around the block, if they said things appropriately (perhaps a stretch) I seriously doubt he would have been insulted. Instead, they put out an angry sounding press release and leave everyone to speculate. Then, probably, get mad when people do.
Paxson did orignally say he was going to talk to a couple more candidates
before the Western Conference Finals were over.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Maybe Flip Saunders was calling in
from the locker room after last night.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 31, 2008 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions
indeed
Not that Pax had a plan, but hiring a wrongly-canned Flip would at least be a good result.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 31, 2008 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Somebody posted Pippen's positive comments on Collins
in fanshots and referred to it as Pip’s job application for lead assistant. I think that would be a fantastic outcome. Talk about a staff that would have street cred! And it would give Pip his chance to walk the talk.
Among the Bulls players
who obviously felt they had the right to stage an outright mutiny. Just talking about the kind of personal authority that Pip and Dougie have, the earned type, not titular, as in, “I’m in control here!” EF Hutton type of credibility. Collins knows bball; Pip knows being a player and a playa. That could be a real good combo. I’m not the biggest Pip fan here, but I’ll give him his due; he had an incredible amount of control on a Michael Jordan team, and it was at least 99% positive.
by California Al on May 31, 2008 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
why don't you comment on it
at that fanpost?
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 31, 2008 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Pip before Jeff Hornacek
would be a better move as lead assistant.
But if Hornacek, then Sports2 will have nail his Pax theory.
Pip would be more in favor of an uptempo offensive, which “yfbb” so often has identified as necessary, which has merit. When Matt stays on a issue for such a long time in the majority of his posts… look out (it reminds me of the summer of 2007 signing of Noc).
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