Ode to Combo Guards
[From the fanshots -ed.]
a good article especially for hinrich and bulls o
over 3 years ago
houstonbull
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what does that imply
that the bulls had relatively high assists and a bad offense? Also, interesting where D. Rose fits on that scale, but I think one year of college ball isn’t enough to project long term.
2008 or bust.
you really think so, doctor?
it doesn’t imply they had high assists and a bad offense, it directly says they had high assists and bad offense. It implies that one doesn’t have much to do with the other.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 27, 2008 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions
that's what I said.
What are the implications of having a bad offense despite having high assists? I didn’t say it implied that, I asked what were the implications of that fact. Why is everyone having such a hard time reading lately? And it has many implications aside from the fact that the two are not necessarily correlated, specifically for the players in that offense.
2008 or bust.
by bullshooter on May 27, 2008 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
having a hard time writing
you could see how it could be read the way I read it. Or not, ‘knowing’ you.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 27, 2008 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions
we all know this site is such a chore for bs
lets all pledge to parse his words better, so he can better enjoy himself.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 27, 2008 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions
I will make sure to mind-read...
...bullshooter’s intended punctuation and grammar from now on. And I won’t be offended if he calls me (or implies that I am) an idiot for getting it wrong.
'implies'
there’s that word again…
by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 27, 2008 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
thanks for chiming in tygger
I am glad that you took the time to read my comment and mimic Matt’s reply. If you also didn’t understand what I mean, why not take the time to use your own mind and reply with something like, “Not sure what you meant, seemed to me like the article stated that as a fact. Or were you wondering what having a bad offense despite a relatively high amount of assists meant about the players who achieved that interesting result. Because if that is what you meant, I think it means…”
I know it would be a leap for you, tygger, but I think if you dig deep enough, you can find your own voice. I really do. :-)
2008 or bust.
by bullshooter on May 27, 2008 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Don't get your panties in a wad or anything.
It is, after all, just a basketball blog. Please, please get over yourself.
Could you please extrapolate on that implication...
along the lines of—So what does make a good offense?
I’d be interested your analysis. I like his little four-quadrant diagram, but what conclusions can you draw (if any) that might provide insight for the Bulls re: the draft and the next coach?
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
Getting a lot points on a few amount of shots, relatively speaking, of course...
...would be my personal definition of a good offense. There’s obviously various ways of doing that, starting first with what kind of personnel a team has.
So, what is that, High Pace with High Efficiency?
I seems like Rose might be the pace guy, and Beasley might be the efficiency guy.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
Just high efficiency.
Which, as b.s. will point out, is nothing new. Pace is about being entertaining, not good.
Go
here. Team Stats ranked by ORtg. Some slow some fast at the top. Some slow some fast at the bottom. Some slow, some fast in the middle.
If a team needs to slow it down, pass it around, to ensure they get a better show, so be it. If they need to get out and run on the break to get layups, so be that.
It’s like your baby, the DDM. It would seem fast, because there is a little dribbling and movement, but I would guess it’s slow by pace. Driving and kicking out, only to drive and kick out again, takes a lot of time. But what are they doing? Just looking for the best shot possible.
When I follow those links back...
they lead to an advertisement to buy Dean Oliver’s book (which I already did—just not for myself!).
Can you give the formula or at least an explanation of “points produced?”
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
Points produced is points produced for individuals.
The individual formula is fairly involved, and only published in BoP as far i know. It took awhile for me to get it working in my spreadsheet. Ortg for individuals is simply points produced/100 individual possessions. Adding all the individual points produced will result in a sum that closely matches the team’s total points scored.
If you not going to read BoP then looking through Dean’s old site will explain most things.
formerly sbulls
Seems like I'm the only one who wants to talk about basketball today.
As usual.
Matt, it’s an interesting article, especially if you tie it in with the Knickblogger’s comment you quoted on another thread—that he loves Westbrook, even though, admittedly, he has no offensive game.
Do we need to include some sort of “z” axis that talks about point differential? And if we do, can we filter that back into guard play?
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
You seem to be missing the point
The conclusion of the article was that style does not influence production at either the individual or team level. If you want to learn about point differential, that’s really all that +/- ratings in their various forms are.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
I'd say
the Bulls have high assists but a bad offense because of their reliance on jumpshots. When you swing it around the perimeter and eventually Hinrich, Gordon or Deng shoots a jumper, there’s usually an assist involved but its not going to go in enough for the offense to be good.
Right, this isn't rocket science
teams who are good offensively have good offensive players on their roster. Since there are so many ways to be good offensively (jumpshooting, passing, taking opponents off the dribble, setting good picks) it should be no surprise that there’s just a small correlation between assists and offensive rating.
At the same time, it’s still hugely hugely important to be good at passing, especially for a Bulls team that relies so much on the jumpshot.
The Bulls are right in the middle of the pack in the NBA
in terms of outside shot/inside shot. The Bulls weren’t over reliant on jumpshooting because they took more jumpshots than other teams. They were over reliant because they couldn’t finish inside. Also notice assists have nothing to do with who had a good FG%.
formerly sbulls
Thanks this is a very interesting piece.
Marbury and Stevie Franchise are the poster children for denegrating combo guards.
It doesn't surprise me that there is no consistent
correlation between “assists” and “good offense,” given how broadly “assist” is defined in the NBA. The real value of a great point guard is the ability to generate easy opportunities for teammates (in this context, I’ll define “easy” as dunks, layups, and wide open jumpers). In my opinion, a Chris Paul alley oop to Tyson Chandler has greater value than a Hinrich pass to Luol Deng for a contested jumper out of the corner, though both (I believe) would be recorded as “assists.”
Indeed, the author of that article acknowledges the variable value of the assist:
“Quite possibly, no assist is created equal, and our rash cookie-cutter generalizations only cloud the value of the pass, discounting the truly vital (an alley-oop, a backdoor bounce for an easy layup) to the level of the coincidental (the shuffle pass which leads to single-clutch fall-away from 15).”
In order to truly determine the value of a “pure” point guard, someone would have to track different categories of assists, which would obviously entail subjective determinations.
Also, in assessing the value of the combo guard, shouldn’t defense taken into account? I thought one of the primary criticisms of combo guards is that they are typically too slow to guard pure point guards and too small to guard true 2 guards.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
I think the obvious ( & simple) conclusion
is that its more important that players be good than fit into a predetermined role.
The author of that piece misses the point
A combo guard isn’t somebody who can both pass and score, with an unlimited skillset or a Perfect Balance (whatever that means). Combo guards are players who are neither a natural PG or SG; tweeners.
Tony Parker, Stephon Marbury, Baron Davis, Mo Williams, Andre Miller, Mike Bibby, Rajon Rondo, Chauncey Billups, Beno Udrih or Raymond Felton are listed as combo guards in the article, but they aren’t really. They’re point guards, and they’ve always played point, and few would argue they are actually shooting guards gone into hiding.
So basically the author is just saying that it’s good to be able to both pass and shoot – not exactly novel. Unfortunately for us, our starting point guard is excels at neither. Fortunately for us, we won the fucking lottery!!
I would say they were the opposite,
always shooting guards who match up with point guards now.
2008 or bust.
by bullshooter on May 27, 2008 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Okay but
they can’t always be shooting guards if they’ve never played shooting guard.
If you want to call them point guards because your definition
of a point guard is the guy who dribbles it across halfcourt then fine their PGs.
formerly sbulls
that's like saying
“if you want to call Vince Young a quarterback because your definition of a quarterback is the guy who takes the snap from center then fine he’s a QB.”
So LeBron is a PG?
The problem with the notion of a “pure” point guard is that so many people get caught up in the definition of “pure” they forget to look at actual value contributed by the player. It doesn’t really matter what position you pigeonhole a player into as long as they are actually contributing to the success of the team.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Basketball isn't football or baseball
Just because the dribble it across halfcourt doesn’t mean they play anything like a point guard on the other side of halfcourt. Bibby for one hasn’t been the primary distributer since he left Vancouver.
formerly sbulls
Larry Hughes and Arenas
Hughes for Team Lebron was the pg i think, and Arenas is the pg for the wizards but aside from being the primary ball handlers they dont really do anything in the the traditional pg sense.
im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.
uhhh
Chauncey Billups and Kirk hinrich have the same kind of game except one is extremely efficient (confidence, swagger, consistent shot, leadership) while the other droops around. Yet Kirk hinrich is a tweener “unpure” pg, and according to you Billups is a pg no matter how you look at it (so even if he scores 20 pts but only has 5 assists in a game, he is a pg, but hinrich can get 12 points in a game and 8 assists and still be considered a combo tweener guard)....that seems to be your thinking here, because a guy becomes an all star or star at a certain position then that player is then that position. It doesnt matter if kirk can play pg better then he can sg, he will forever be a tweener because he isnt an all star at pg. But chauncey can shoot the ball more, get less assists and still be considered a pg because he is at the all star level. NICE!!!
And no
i am not comparing the skills of kirk, arenas, and billups, i am comparing the game of billups and kirk, which really is very similar.
im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.
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