Manufactured debate
Well, I'm almost already sick of draft talk. And it's not until June 26th.
First we had Sam's bad day , though that was more due to his evaluation of the current roster.
Today there's the likes of Mariotti saying the Bulls have to find a coach first (whoever it is, I guarantee the pick will be here longer). Then Mariotti's dark apprentice giving a half-assed effort to create a contrarian view.
And finally these back-to-back nuggets of wisdom from Barry Rozner:
Maybe the best move is to deal the pick and get three from New Jersey (10, 21, 40), rebuilding the team and finding a star in a trade, but that kind of radical thinking doesn't seem possible given Paxson's deliberate nature.
All this might be easier if the Bulls had a coach in place, and it wouldn't be as crazy as you think to steal John Calipari from Memphis, since he understands Rose and would certainly know how to employ him.
Not sure how those rank compared to KC Johnson throwing out the idea of dealing the pick for Baron Davis .
Only 31 days to go. I realize the benefit to not showing your hand, but Pax could think of it as doing us a service, keeping us from reading such 'advice'.
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207 comments
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Wow,
that’s a whole lot of crap coming from veteran NBA writers.
I guess most people really have been taken by surprise by the Bulls’ luck. Gotta write something about it, gotta write something, anything.
The Game chose him !
by Diabolo on
May 22, 2008 8:36 AM CDT
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It's only advice
if you listen to it. :-)
2008 or bust.
by bullshooter on
May 22, 2008 8:43 AM CDT
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And is Rozner a football beat writer or something
who trades down in the NBA for more picks?
2008 or bust.
by bullshooter on
May 22, 2008 8:53 AM CDT
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I think he's a general 'columnist'
which likely means he doesn’t watch the NBA, except when its to review tapes of fights.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 22, 2008 9:38 AM CDT
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I always thought
the Bulls should trade Tyrus Thomas and their 2nd round pick to the Supersonics to move up in the 2nd round… but that kind of radical thinking doesn’t seem possible given Paxson’s deliberate nature.
by YaoPau on
May 22, 2008 10:49 AM CDT
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He's a baseball guy
And he should probably stick to writing about it.
by Big D on
May 22, 2008 11:45 AM CDT
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its an "are you kidding me" advice
i mean that’s the most lame advice i’d ever give to pax.
are you gonna rebuild this team with the # 10 21 40 picks?
who would they pick?kwame browns?
by Aiafati on
May 22, 2008 11:56 AM CDT
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"hey Jerry, it's not a lie ...
...if you believe it.”
Rose '08
by Orange Juice on
May 22, 2008 1:22 PM CDT
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Isn't the #1 a certified star already?
With a certificate and everything. Or the local dunces could write something complimentary about a basketball player not named Diener, Scheyer, or Nocioni for a change.
by hscs on
May 22, 2008 9:01 AM CDT
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If only Paxson cared about us.
Save us from the insanity, John. Save us from the insanity!
Pishaw. As if.
by tyger1147 on
May 22, 2008 9:09 AM CDT
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KC wants to trade the pick for Baron Davis?
yikes. that’s simply stupefying in its absurdity.
by Orlando Woolridge on
May 22, 2008 9:20 AM CDT
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he did an online chat for the trib yesterday
when he mentioned one of the possible things Pax could do is trade for Jermaine O’Neal.
by KT on
May 22, 2008 9:43 AM CDT
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Maybe its these blogs-
These blogs are informative, interesting, state good ideas. The writers read these, and probably feel like they have to say something “smarter”, “more informed” than what’s here, because hey, they ride the team bus.
Luckily Johnny boy reads these too. Wouldn’t you, if you were him?
by iBurkey on
May 22, 2008 9:40 AM CDT
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blogs can be crazy and wacky and stupid too
by hscs on
May 22, 2008 9:52 AM CDT
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There's no way I'd trade Beasley for Aldridge
Both are poor defenders, but at least Beasley will be a plus rebounder. I do like Aldridge’s length, but unless Beasley measures out at 6’7” or something (talking about effective height, not actual floor-to-noggin), I’d rather have Beasley.
I’d probably rather have Rose than either of them. Trading the #1 for Aldridge straight-up doesn’t make any damn sense.
by Jivas on
May 22, 2008 10:04 AM CDT
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Aldridge's length doesn't do him much good
He’s a crappy rebounder and defender. The jumpshot gets off just fine, but so does Mikki Moore’s.
by hscs on
May 22, 2008 10:08 AM CDT
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Agreed - I'm no lover of LMA's overall game...
...but I do think that his length provides him with a marginal advantage defensively over Beasley, in that he will be able to defend/alter a few more shots than Beasley, even given his poor defensive effort.
by Jivas on
May 22, 2008 10:14 AM CDT
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Beasley's athleticism and strentgh give him just as much of a similar advantage.
And the athleticism (and the fact he’s finishing his 1st year out of high school compared to Aldridge’s fourth) means there’s at least a chance for defensive upside.
by tyger1147 on
May 22, 2008 10:16 AM CDT
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Then what's KC Johnson's excuse?
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on
May 22, 2008 10:15 AM CDT
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yeesh
I like Blazers Edge, but that thread is a whole lot of crazy.
How did the Bulls ‘miss’ on Aldridge, and who’s that upset about it?
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 22, 2008 10:56 AM CDT
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You would absolutely trade a potential franchise PG
For a guy who, at best will be the 3rd best player on that team. If there’s anything we need, it’s another guy who can shoot 15 foot jumpers, NOT a dominating inside/out presence or a PG with incredible athleticism.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on
May 22, 2008 10:58 AM CDT
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the goofiest part, and it's tough to be goofier than Aldridge for the #1,
or that Aldridge has the potential to be Kevin Garnett, is the sentiment in the comments that Pritchard needs to be tied up in a room with no phones so he doesn’t trade Aldridge for the #1. Nothing wrong with being a homer, but there have been some bizarre things coming out of the main hubs of Blazer fandom the past few years.
by hscs on
May 22, 2008 11:03 AM CDT
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they do seem more tightly-knit with 'their guys'
than other fandoms. Likely the ‘one-sport town’ thing.
I do think Aldridge is a good enough compliment to Oden that you can say it’s not worth messing up, assuming that a deal for #1 is lunacy anyway.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 22, 2008 11:10 AM CDT
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I was struck by Mortimer's mother hen act yesterday
Perhaps the warm embrace is what keeps them all talking funny in unison.
by paxson43 on
May 22, 2008 12:07 PM CDT
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Either that, or
all the “greenery” in Portland. Like the kind of greenery that it’s illegal to grow.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on
May 22, 2008 12:14 PM CDT
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I think you are right on
Blazers fans tend to feel more attached to their guys and thus overrated them. This isn’t the first example. The question of who’s better- Roy or CP3 was very much on the table on BlazersEdge most of the year, and most people were calling me out for saying CP3 had him beat by a mile. The playoffs have changed people’s opinions some, but plenty of Edgers would still take Roy over Paul.
The Edgers are an awesome community that I love being a part of—they are just devoted to their guys more than most.
I do think you guys are underrating Aldridge. He’s a dynamite offensive player who’s also a very solid defender. His post game (which has come a long way) and rebounding need plenty of work, but he’s right on track to be a regular all-star. Look at his post- all star break splits. He’s going to be a 20/8 guy sooner rather than later.
No matter what the Edge says though, that’s not nearly worth giving up the chance to draft Rose or Beasley.
Boomshakalaka
by jksnake99 on
May 22, 2008 11:32 PM CDT
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hey hscs, your favorite blogger
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 22, 2008 2:28 PM CDT
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lol my favorite is
“No way do we give up Aldridge. I think Chicago might trade the number 1 pick without giving up one of our big 3. we have lots of great pieces I also think Reafs expiring contract is attractive to them.
I could see a deal of Rudy Fernandez for Rose. Rudy would get more playing time in Chicago and he would have been hands down the 3rd pick in this years draft. I think Rose would fit on our team rerally well. think about Rose in the Rose Garden.”
RUDY FERNANDEZ?
by Jaina on
May 22, 2008 3:11 PM CDT
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caught it in my wild Aldridge statements net already
I don’t have the energy to blog about that guy. I can’t believe the Oregonian actually allows that much cheerleading. Sean still can’t beat my favorite Blazer’s Edge comment, “I would even be hesitant to trade Aldridge for Greg Oden”.
by hscs on
May 22, 2008 3:19 PM CDT
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Pretty much everybody but a few here.
I’d like to make up statistics and say that 90% of national writers, 98% of local writers, 95% of casual NBA fans, 80% of Bulls fans and all of the Bulls front office think drafting Tyrus Thomas instead of Aldridge was a HUGE mistake.
There’s been a lot of writing that drafting Beasley would help make up for the disastrous mistake of drafting Thomas.
by tyger1147 on
May 22, 2008 11:27 AM CDT
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I'm glad I could create an insular bubble
of Tyrus love.
Me and David Thorpe to the end.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 22, 2008 11:33 AM CDT
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why...
is everyone giving up on Tyrus Thomas? He’ll be 22 when next season starts, and never got consistent playing time under Skiles. He has shown flashes of brilliance, and his mid range jumper has improved to the point where defenses will think twice before leaving him wide open for the 15 footer. The lack of a consistent rotation has hurt the development of Ty, and Sefolosha as well, but lets wait before calling drafting Thomas a disaster.
by MyJalenRoseJerseyMattersAgain on
May 23, 2008 1:29 AM CDT
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There is no reason to give up on Tyrus
until you see how he plays with Rose. And Portland can keep LMA, we have enough soft players who prefer to stay clean on the perimter. LMA is a nice player, but he can keep his game in Portland where they can afford him to be soft.
by messwiththebull on
May 23, 2008 1:33 AM CDT
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They really overvalue the guy
soft, can kinda score, no D, no rebounding. Tyrus hasn’t been great – yet – but I’ll take a pass on LMA as someone to “build around.”
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on
May 22, 2008 12:17 PM CDT
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"How did the Bulls ‘miss’ on Aldridge, and who’s that upset about it?"
from what i can gather, it’s the Blazers announcing crew and Screamin’ A. Smith.
by Orlando Woolridge on
May 22, 2008 7:23 PM CDT
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Oh yeah - and Chad Ford has another article about the decision on ESPN.com ($, free preview)
by Jivas on
May 22, 2008 10:07 AM CDT
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Interesting info on measurements from the article
“Last year at the Nike Hoop Summit [Beasley] measured 6-foot-9 in shoes, with a 7-foot wingspan and a 9-foot-1 standing reach. While those aren’t terrific measurements for the 4 position, they aren’t terrible either. (By the way, Rose measured 6-foot-3½ in shoes with a 6-foot-7 wingspan at the same event).”
As a point of reference, Tyrus measured 6’ 8.25” in shoes, with a 7’ 3” wingspan and a 9’ standing reach (from DraftExpress). If those Beasley measurements are accurate – if his standing reach is a full inch longer than TT’s – this answers one significant question about him, and complicates the decision just a little in my mind.
by Jivas on
May 22, 2008 10:12 AM CDT
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Really? Why? Who stands flat-footed reaching up in the NBA?
As quick and athletic as Beasley is, Thomas is more so. While there is obviously a potential for that to make a difference, it’s insubstantial. What about Thomas’s longer wingspan which will help with better passing, better defending the passing lanes, better defending someone dribbling by, etc. etc.
by tyger1147 on
May 22, 2008 10:21 AM CDT
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"Who stands flat-footed reaching up in the NBA?"
Aaron Gray. Carry on.
by hscs on
May 22, 2008 10:28 AM CDT
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I'm TT's biggest booster...
This wasn’t meant to be a Beasley-versus-TT thing. It was simply to point out that one of (the only?) question mark on Beasley was whether on his measurables and whether he’d have the size to play power forward in the NBA, and this information (if accurate) may help to answer that question.
by Jivas on
May 22, 2008 10:30 AM CDT
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Well, um... yeah.
Measurements would help settle the measurement question.
by tyger1147 on
May 22, 2008 10:32 AM CDT
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I think this makes Tyrus look better
if anything.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 22, 2008 10:57 AM CDT
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I think it makes Boylan's insistence on plugging TT into the "3" look silly...
...but I’m not sure it’s that meaningful of an indicator for his future development, other than indicating that he clearly has legitimate size to play PF in the NBA.
by Jivas on
May 22, 2008 12:51 PM CDT
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The point is that standing reach is a *MUCH* better indicator than height
Height is the distance from the floor to the top of your head – who makes basketball plays with the top of their head?
by Jivas on
May 22, 2008 12:26 PM CDT
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Calipari would have us believe Rose makes them
with his chin.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 22, 2008 12:27 PM CDT
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"who makes basketball plays with the top of their head?"
Andres Nocioni. Why are all the exceptions to common sense in Chicago?
by hscs on
May 22, 2008 12:27 PM CDT
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Great article a couple of years ago from 82games.com
http://www.82games.com/trueheight.htm
This is what I meant when I referred to “effective” height earlier in the thread – it’s true that players don’t make basketball plays reaching up flat-footed (except Aaron Gray) and players don’t make baskeball plays with the top of their head (except Chapu), and this analysis does a good job combining all measurement information to determine a player’s “True” or “effective” height.
The only real question I have with Beasley’s game is whether he has the size to be a full-time PF in the NBA. I’m looking forward to seeing more reliable measurables.
by Jivas on
May 22, 2008 12:32 PM CDT
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nice
That just found a place in my “favorites—basketball.” Thanks.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 22, 2008 12:35 PM CDT
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I think his college rebounding numbers are a good indicator of 4-ishness
It would be great if someone could dig up Hollinger’s college rebounding translates well to the NBA piece from last summer.
by hscs on
May 22, 2008 12:36 PM CDT
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Rebound rate has been found to be VERY static from level-to-level...
...but I’m not aware of a specific study that’s been published on the topic. Certainly, I have little worry about Beasley’s ability to average 10 rebounds per game in the NBA.
Here’s Hollinger’s article on forecasting college players to the NBA ($):
by Jivas on
May 22, 2008 12:42 PM CDT
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thanks, but I'm not an Insider
I was hoping for a quick synopsis, and that’s exactly the piece I was referring to, but it seems I recalled an incorrect conclusion.
by hscs on
May 22, 2008 12:48 PM CDT
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Rebounding portion...
4. Rebounds. Boards, especially offensive boards, are a good indicator of future pro success as well.
Note that it isn’t necessarily the absolute rebounds as much as the rebounds given a player’s height. Wade, for instance, has the best rebound rate in the past five years of any player 6-4 or shorter—a whopping 13.0 his sophomore year. Rajon Rondo was the best under 6-2 (11.5), and Nate Robinson was the best under six foot (8.6 his sophomore year).
The correlation isn’t quite as strong with big men, oddly enough, because you get one-dimensional types muscling in on the action (a lot of marginal players like Reggie Evans). But big men who can rebound and show some skill in other areas tend to fare very well in the pros.
The most notable rebound rate in this year’s draft belongs to an Ohio State player—just not the one you think. Daequan Cook, a 6-5 freshman, put up a whopping 12.1 mark, which is pretty incredible for a player that size.
"If you're not going to compete, then I'll dominate you." MJ
by Rankdog on
May 22, 2008 9:50 PM CDT
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Beasley is a 6'9" 'Chris Bosh'
Bosh was far weaker than Beasley coming out of Georgia Tech as a one and done.
I have no quarrels with drafting Beasley, so long as he’s drafted to the Bulls after they select Rose #1 overall.
Beasley will be an excellent NBA player. You’ll need to secure a strong center that can spell Beasley’s defensive lapses and provide a decent enough offensive skillset to prevent the doubles on Beasley from being two bigs and instead one big and one helping guard.
by NBA Observer on
May 23, 2008 8:40 AM CDT
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Can someone explain what are Beasley's apparent character flaws?
Everytime I read an article, there’s always something about Beasley’s questionable character could cost him etc etc, but no one ever elaborates. Is he the next Marcus Fizer? I need to know!
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on
May 22, 2008 10:20 AM CDT
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Five high schools in four years...
...correct? That’s not a red flag, that’s a radioactive flag.
by Jivas on
May 22, 2008 10:31 AM CDT
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Yes, because you can accurately assess a person's character by their behavoir as an adolescent
He was busted for pranks and generally acting like a goofy, teenage boy. It’s not like he was committing crimes.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on
May 22, 2008 10:36 AM CDT
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Five years in high school...
for pranks??? I feel like I need little more info.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 22, 2008 10:40 AM CDT
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We need a BaB exclusive with Michael Beasley
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on
May 22, 2008 10:43 AM CDT
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It's still deviating so far from the norm that there's cause for concern
It’s not like the Beaz is far removed from those days. Normally I think character talk is lame and not important, but selecting a guy who acts like an 8 year old with the #1 pick seems risky. It’s entirely possible he’s matured and ready to be a pro; I’m not asking for a Goodwill Ambassador like Deng (who also generously employs children in Asian shoe factories).
by hscs on
May 22, 2008 10:45 AM CDT
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The whole debate is easier with Rose seemingly being better at basketball.
by hscs on
May 22, 2008 10:48 AM CDT
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I wouldn't say the character talk doesn't give me pause
Just tired of seeing it being blown way out of proportion.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on
May 22, 2008 11:15 AM CDT
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Thus all of the Derrick Coleman comparisons.
You think people didn’t know about Derrick Coleman’s maturity issues when he was drafted?
And yet there he was, a few years into his career, getting arrested for urinating into the cooking pot in the kitchen of a restaurant.
Oh, silly me! He later said it was a misunderstanding (and at other times stated a drink spilled on his pants)—nevermind all the concerns about character!
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on
May 22, 2008 12:23 PM CDT
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What a prankster!
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 22, 2008 12:25 PM CDT
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Plus, this team has already met its quota
of public urinators for the next two seasons at least.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on
May 22, 2008 12:27 PM CDT
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Don't knock public urination until you've tried it
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on
May 22, 2008 12:32 PM CDT
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You do realize
he’s only one year removed from these “adolescent” years, don’t you?
by messwiththebull on
May 23, 2008 1:29 AM CDT
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It was actually 6 high schools...
In 5 states…
Some definite question marks there, especially considering he is only one year removed from high school.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on
May 22, 2008 8:14 PM CDT
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It's not as bad as it's reported to be
Beasley just likes loyal people around him. His HS game of leapfrog was due more to changes in the coaches than it was about himself. Bob Huggins recruited Beasley to Kansas State. Then Huggins left KSU to take hte West Virginia job. Beasley considered pulling out and going elsewhere but KSU then hired Frank Martin as the head coach.
The way I classify most of these troubles that seem to plague the young basketball talent is by taking a closer look at the way grassroots basketball has developed in the United States. It’s a very different ruleset than the one that gave us Magic, Michael, Barkley, Pippen, and Duncan.
The one thing that we all should read about is how hard Beasley works on his game. Dan Barto’s writeup is one of the best I’ve read. I think True Hoop linked me to it. Henry Abbott links to Dan Barto on a regular basis for feedback on his work with players before most people even knew their names.
by NBA Observer on
May 23, 2008 8:56 AM CDT
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Barry, why don't you just stop talking for a little bit.
If we could acquire a) Kobe Bryant, or b) LeBron James, by all means trade that pick. Since that is never happening, I strongly suggest all Chicago columnists to maintain some semblance of intelligence and logic until the draft.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on
May 22, 2008 10:53 AM CDT
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My gut tells me Paxson will make the right decision
Overall Pax has done a very good job with the picks.
PS: It is day 2 and I still cannot get the smile off my face.
by chgobr on
May 22, 2008 11:22 AM CDT
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Pax
I used to trust Pax. Now? Not as much. It really seems like his decision making has gone south ever since his brother showed up.
by Jobu on
May 22, 2008 11:54 AM CDT
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My estimate places his dropoff
at the moment Ben Wallace showed up.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on
May 22, 2008 12:24 PM CDT
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Drafting Beasley a contrarian view?
Since when is taking the guy who was widely considered the #1 draft pick across the board for pretty much the entire college basketball regular season some sort of crazy idea that only someone trying to be different would think of? I knew as early as the McDonald’s game that Beasley was the best player in his class and add in the fact that he’s exactly what the Bulls need most and I think there’s a case to be made that taking Rose should be the more questionable choice. Everyone is enamored with him because of Memphis’s run (forgetting to include his missed free throws and inability to sustain a 10 point lead as the point guard) and I bet a lot of guys haven’t even seen Beasley play very often but as someone who covered the Big 12 tournament professionally and covered several of his regular season games, he’s the real deal.
That said, I can understand support for Rose but it is beyond stupid in my mind for people to think that drafting Beasley is unthinkable when he’s all we’ve been waiting for for years and we already have a point guard who many people considered out best player not too long ago signed longterm.
by JSlakov on
May 22, 2008 12:07 PM CDT
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it just seemed that Couch
didn’t even believe it himself.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 22, 2008 12:16 PM CDT
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covered the Big 12 tournament professionally...
with what?
Certainly not with punctuation.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 22, 2008 12:22 PM CDT
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um
feel free to point out the punctuation flaws in that post…
by JSlakov on
May 22, 2008 12:27 PM CDT
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much better.
I got it that time. ;-)
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 22, 2008 12:31 PM CDT
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I wonder
if our guards had not slipped this last year we would all be more excited about Beasley than Rose. I don’t really remember a whole lot of griping about our guards two years ago besides the typical “their too short” argument. They were serviceable and not really our weakest link which was mostly widely talked about as an inside scoring presence. Now that the guards had a bad season Rose seems like the no-brainer for us. Which is fine I guess. I’ll be happy with either because not too long ago we were picking 9th after all. Still something to think about.
by cranscape on
May 22, 2008 12:30 PM CDT
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How confident are you that Kirk returns to his form from 2 years ago?
I’m not that confident about it at all. The fact that he slipped so significantly this last year is meaningful when forecasting his future performance; I do think that his performance this last year was somewhat aberrant and that he’ll regress to the mean (or “progress” as it may seem) this year, but I also think his ‘06-’07 season was a mirage.
by Jivas on
May 22, 2008 12:35 PM CDT
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I think
that Kirk regressing even worse than his rookie year as he did this last year was a blip rather than a trend. While his best year might not be something to expect next year either…with a better team climate and with inside scoring from Beasley to open things up for the guards it would be hard to think a person couldn’t capitalize on that and improve their own numbers. Any of our guards for that matter. If Beasley could command a double team than the perimeter shooting would hopefully get better. Just an shot at why people associated with the NBA but not necessarily the Bulls would be hot on Beasley. We are preoccupied, right or wrong, with the guard situation.
Personally I’d take Rose because I think it would be easier to trade for a good four rather than try to trade for a point guard of Rose’s apparent quality. Or I’d trade some players to Miami for the 2 pick and have both. We are already very young have too many players who want minutes. With quality young players I wouldn’t mind waiting a year or two to develop into something better with them. Miami already has a star and could use some of our players to get back into the eastern conference while Wade is there an waiting. Wishful thinking.
by cranscape on
May 22, 2008 1:01 PM CDT
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Ouch
translate that into English. That’s what I get for posting while and work and distracted.
by cranscape on
May 22, 2008 1:05 PM CDT
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How about this translation: I'd rather have a great PG and good PF than a good PG and a great PF
by Jivas on
May 22, 2008 2:17 PM CDT
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Suppose so.
There are a number PF that can get 20/10 a night. Develop one or trade for one. Heck, with Wallace out of the picture we already get more scoring out of our front court than most of last season anyway. There were times when Thomas and Noah looked very good together. Anyway, quality PFs seem to go up on the trading block more often than quality PGs. The idea of a team trading us their star PG …slim. Insane even. Putting three of our guys up on the trading block (we need to get rid of them anyway) for a quality PF wouldn’t be that hard. Or just develop the players we have in the front court. Doesn’t seem like such hard prospects if we pick Rose.
by cranscape on
May 22, 2008 4:20 PM CDT
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Trade Deng & Hinrich
for Melo & someone. Lineup of Melo, Noah, Thomas, Gordon & Rose makes me wanna hollah. Noc, Hughes & Gooden on the second unit.
by Cannoli on
May 22, 2008 4:44 PM CDT
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Leave Hughes on the bus
and put Thabo in there. I can probably live with Gooden and Noc.
by cranscape on
May 22, 2008 4:48 PM CDT
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Too much salary for Denver to take on...
...with Deng getting an extension shortly. I’m not sure if that would work.
If it does? Holla!
by Jivas on
May 22, 2008 5:07 PM CDT
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I have zero confidence
Kurt can return to form from two years ago unless the Bulls draft or acquire an elite high post big man. Beasley’s not a high post player. He excels on the low block and with a face up game.
Kirk would benefit more from a player like Bargnani or Nowitzki(moreso Nowitzki duh). He needs a big to come set high screens at the top of the circle or at the left or right high posts. The screener must have an outside game and length to get that shot up over the power forward or center that would defending the screener.
by NBA Observer on
May 23, 2008 9:01 AM CDT
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This is what's so crazy
about this entire debate. For 3+ seasons now, pundits from all over have been saying “The one thing this Bulls team lacks is a presence down low—someone who can get them 20 and 10 night in and night out.” Especially when the perimeter play has been great. Thus, on a silver platter, I present to you: Michael Beazley, veritable 20-10 producing machine.
But in the meantime, while the Bulls and Bulls fandom were waiting for the magic 20-10 machine to appear, the perimeter play has fallen off dramatically (coinciding with the worst season ever by Kirk Hinrich, whom I actually have thought very highly of as a player, but whose flaws as a combo guard have now been made clear). During this same time, Chris Paul and Deron Williams have taken the role of dominant point guard to the next level, building upon the considerable notice to the league from players who have been doing it for years (Kidd, then Nash/Parker).
So if this was May of 2007 it would be a clear cut choice in favor of Beasley. But the past year of pain has changed things, I would say.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on
May 22, 2008 12:37 PM CDT
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but
correct me if I’m wrong, but Paul and Williams are both sitting home while the four teams left have something resembling a dominant big man (although some would say Rasheed is only dominant every blue moon).
by JSlakov on
May 22, 2008 12:40 PM CDT
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Well yes, but... How many championships
did the Jazz win with Karl Malone? Or the Sonics with Kemp? or the Clips with Brand?
There are a lot of 20-10 machines who have never been to the promised land.
Meanwhile, the four conference finalists are going to be past their prime soon enough, especially the Spurs, whom the Hornets pushed to the brink, and the Celts, who are apparently old enough to be pushed to the brink as a matter of course in every playoff series.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on
May 22, 2008 12:48 PM CDT
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Malone and Kemp
did have Stockton and Payton, two pretty good lead guads in their own right.
Their main problom was the Chicago Bulls, a team, oddly enough, with neither a scoring pf or distributing pg.
.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 22, 2008 1:08 PM CDT
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Some of us disagreed with the pundits.
The low post scorer thing was just an easy target for pundits who speak in sound bites.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on
May 22, 2008 12:42 PM CDT
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I have to say,
I for one did not see this collapse coming. I bought into what the pundits were saying wholesale. And interestingly enough, Pax himself often echoed that sentiment about needing a low post scorer.
I do also recall that the conventional wisdom sentiment out there prior to the “we need a lowpost presence” chorus was the “just get a star” line of reasoning. this was more the case when krause was running things.
Just out of curiosity, what did you think the Bulls were lacking all these seasons when people were saying “low post presence”? If you say an athletic point then I’m inclined to be doubtful of what you say.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on
May 22, 2008 12:54 PM CDT
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It's not as simple as plug in a star or a low post scorer.
Teams aren’t puzzles where you plug in the missing piece. Would the right low post scorer or star make a huge difference? Of course. But, only the right one. A high usage/high effciency player that plays both ends. I didn’t care what position that player played, but those players are rarely ever moved. So I was focused on internal improvement. At the time I wrote that getting or developing guys that could make layups or turn layup attempts into dunks would be much more productive than plugging in a 2nd tier low post scorer. The other thing I identified as lacking was coaching. I wrote about Skiles setting up his players to fail, rather than succeed. I too thought the team would at least finish in the neighborhood of 50 wins, there was no reason to think otherwise.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on
May 22, 2008 4:04 PM CDT
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Good comment
If this was a year ago, everybody here would say that Beasley would be a no brainer. Now that everybody hates Kirk and our backcourt in general after 1 horrible season, everybody thinks Rose is a no brainer. I think the reality is somewhere in between, and the choice isn’t clear cut.
Kirk and BG are better than they were last year, but also not as good as what people were hoping they would turn out to be. Both are NBA starter quality guards probably in the top 1/2 of their position (top 15) and will be for probably 5 more years or so. Neither will ever be all star quality though as some probably hoped. They’re pretty much at their ceiling.
I like Noah and Tyrus both alot and think they have promise, but I also think in another 2 years or so when they have reached their ceiling or close to it, people will be just as disappointed. I think both can also be top 1/2 of their position or so just like Kirk and BG, but I realistically don’t think either will be much better. This isn’t a bad thing. That’s 4 guys relatively close to the same level for their position and better than 1/2 the league. I think Deng is about same for 3’s, so that’s a lineup of 5 quality starters in about 2 years or so.
The unknown of where Noah and Tyrus might be in 2 years is more exciting to think about, but it also has a greater possibilty for a letdown. We know we have a decent 1,2, and 3. Nothing better than decent but still decent. We don’t know what we have from our 4 & 5 yet. Wishful thinking is that one or both will be studs, but how likely is that really?
Also, when do we want to try and compete? Do we want to make some moves and try and compete next year and build on that, or do we revert back to 3 years or so ago and go for the building for the future thing? Building for the future seems like the consensus on here as most seem to value the unknown.
I’m still undecided on what we should do, but I think the hardcore Rose camp is an overeaction to last year and an overvaluing of Thomas & Noah. I think the Beasley camp is generally more realistic about how good are players actually are and will be.
by rb22 on
May 22, 2008 1:11 PM CDT
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Blame it on Boylan
It’s not as though anyone needs another reason to hate Boylan, but one of my main reasons was that he robbed Tyrus Thomas of all that developmental playing time, and in the process left us all with a big question mark regarding his abilities. Honestly, if we knew he could be a consistent 15 and 10 guy, even this would make the decision so clear cut in favor of Rose. If he was given a lot of minutes and ended up getting 9 points and 5 rebounds and 5 fouls game after game, then the choice is clear cut in favor of Beasley. Boylan, you historically bad coach you… even ruining my day in the middle of my joy over the #1 pick…
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on
May 22, 2008 2:00 PM CDT
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That is a very good point.
Gak…Boylan.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 22, 2008 2:01 PM CDT
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Exceeeeppppptttt....
despite what Boylan and others think, playing Thomas more may have resulted in one or two more wins the rest of the year. Not good.
by tyger1147 on
May 22, 2008 2:22 PM CDT
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Ha!
Talk about a Manufactured Debate.
Would we be better off with a more fully developed Tyrus, maybe even a blossoming Tyrus, and potential play-off run this year, or a number one draft choice.
I’ll take the number one pick (which I take it is your point here).
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 22, 2008 2:28 PM CDT
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I'd take the number 1 pick
The Bulls would lose to the Pistons or Celtics in a 7 game series regardless if Tyrus Thomas was becoming the next Shawn Kemp. Tyrus has a chance to be even more productive with Rose, and the Bulls could easily win 10 more games in the East next year to clinch a playoff berth.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on
May 22, 2008 4:38 PM CDT
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Hold on there, Bullhockey
Boylan now has a legacy. It was his brilliant decision making that dropped Charlotte one spot below us in the draft and got us the numero uno. Thanks, Jimbo!!!
by California Al on
May 23, 2008 12:14 AM CDT
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You must have noticed
the trend in BABland where everyone seemed to notice that when the Bulls pushed the tempo, started running, and took advantage of their youth the team started looking like the top 10 team we all expected them to be.
Rose is a player that will get more out of what we already have right away than what Beasley can do for the parts we already have. Rose is a turbocharger upgrade. Beasley is a transmission upgrade.
by NBA Observer on
May 23, 2008 9:04 AM CDT
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Florida media reporting that Bulls will select Beasley...
“Nevertheless, the game has begun—in earnest. The Ft. Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel, citing a source “familiar with the dealings,” reported in its Thursday editions that the Bulls already have conveyed a plan to draft Kansas State power forward Michael Beasley.
“No. 1 and No. 2 are booked and done,” the Sun-Sentinel’s source said.”
First of all, I don’t know how crdible the Florida media is on this issue. The Heat want Rose. So it may be aan instance of wishful thinking or attempted manipulation.
However, if Paxson selects Beasley, he better hope that Beasley performs at an elite level in his first season. The Chicago media and fan base will show no patience with Beasley.
And if Beasley is just average (or even above average) and Rose turns out to be a superstar, we’ll be talking about the pick for the next ten to fifteen years.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on
May 22, 2008 12:41 PM CDT
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The 2 John Paxsons
I was hoping for the open-minded Paxson who gave us all of that fluff about the open-ended coaching search. This was the Pax who felt for his own job security, who could embrace a new mindset and new system (like D’Antoni’s), and who was no longer wedded to “his” players or “his” view on how to get to the top. It’s the Pax who would choose Rose.
If the Sun-Sentinel is correct, then we’re looking at the Pax who falls back upon his faith in the players that he selected to pull through a bad spell and realize the original (stale) version of how this team will succeed. When Rose is running circles around the Bulls’ guards and driving and dishing to Udonis and Shawn Merion for easy buckets, I hope that Paxson realizes how rotten this is…
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on
May 22, 2008 12:46 PM CDT
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Since when did the Sun-Sentinel break news?
It has been a couple days. I doubt they could possibly have made their minds up at this point. And I doubt anyone reporting knows anything more than the rest of us this early in the game. I’ll start believing the reporting after we see them in the gym.
by cranscape on
May 22, 2008 1:10 PM CDT
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I do not believe this report.
Paxson may be slow/meticulous, made the wrong move acquiring a corpse, but he is honest. He has not made up his mind.
by chgobr on
May 22, 2008 1:15 PM CDT
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What does this team need?
I was confused before we got # 1. I’m just as confused now but the possibilities have exploded. Did a confluence of factors occurr to cause the players to have a bad year? or Was last year an indication of their lack of talent? Do we need a missing piece – Beasley or someone who can make this team jell, particularly at cruch time – Rose?
by chgobr on
May 22, 2008 1:55 PM CDT
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Forget what the team needs
The only consideration should be for which player is more likely to be better than the other and work the rest of the roster around him.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on
May 22, 2008 1:58 PM CDT
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Missed Free Throws?
I’d like to correct one myth going around right now, that I saw several dozen posts up the page by JSlakov:
“Everyone is enamored with him because of Memphis’s run (forgetting to include his missed free throws and inability to sustain a 10 point lead as the point guard) “
Unless you’re writing of his missed FTs during the regular season, during which he shot 71.2% from the line, that point is non-existent. In the Tourney he was 34 of 44 (77.2%), and his only bad game was against Miss St (4 of 9). Other than that, he only missed one FT in each of the other 5 games, including 3 of 4 in the Final and 11 of 12 in the semifinal.
Also, the notion that Rose couldn’t hold on to a 10-point lead single-handedly in the Championship game is foolish. By that same view, if Beasley were so dominant he wouldn’t have let his Kansas State team get blown out in the second round against a Wisconsin team which was in turn blown out by Davidson. There’ve been plenty of examples of a dominant college player willing his team to Tournament success (Danny Manning in 1988 comes to mind), and Beasley clearly wasn’t one of those stories.
I’ve written this before, and I’ll write it again: What does every Lottery pick (other than Thabo) by John Paxson have in common? Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Thomas, and Noah were all Most Outstanding Player of their regional bracket in the NCAA Tournament. Derrick Rose was the MOP of the South Region this past tourney. If the past holds true to form, Derrick Rose is the pick.
But all this prognosticating is meaningless. The only way for Pax to make the decision is to have Rose and Beasley in at Berto Center to play against current Bulls. If Beasley can dominate Drew Gooden and Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah, then maybe the Bulls should take him. If Gooden, Thomas, and/or Noah school him, then Rose is the clear choice.
I always thought the hype about a ‘low-post scorer’ was a bunch of hooey. The Bulls have needed a low-post PRESENCE, and that’s much different (think Bill Cartwright in the early 1990s or Tyson Chandler with Chris Paul). With Derrick Rose, the Bulls current stable of Noah, Thomas, and Gooden will all become better.
I’ve just seen other 20 & 10 NBA players who don’t dominate a game at all (Elton Brand comes to mind), while seeing many college 20 & 10 guys not work out in the pros (on the continuum from Derrick Coleman to Marcus Fizer and Stromile Swift). If Beasley were 6’11, I’d think differently. And if he played defense with a passion, I’d like him even more. But he’s 6’8” and he plays lackadaisical D by all accounts.
I think Rose is the clear-cut choice right now, and Beasley has to earn the top pick in practices against the Bulls current front-line.
by BullsFanInSeattle on
May 22, 2008 2:27 PM CDT
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right on
“If Beasley were 6’11, I’d think differently. And if he played defense with a passion, I’d like him even more. But he’s 6’8" and he plays lackadaisical D by all accounts.”
That’s my thinking as well.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 22, 2008 2:29 PM CDT
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too early to give up on Tyrus so go for Rose
I didn’t watch Beasley enough at all to know how good he looks putting up all those #s but when you use a top 4 lottery pick on Tyrus I think you have to give Tyrus a full year of playing time to show if he deserves to be the starting PF or not. Isn’t Tyrus supposed to be as good as Beasley? I would argue both can rebound with Beasley having advatage with shooting range / scoring but Tyrus the more impact defensive player.
If they had drafted B Roy then sure, go for Beasley but why waste Tryus by drafting Beasley when there is an impact PG available in Rose.
I would also argue that Kirk could play with Rose for year if there is no great trade available. And Gordon can only leave Bulls if they get a better SG with an outside shoot, as I’m all for playing uptempo with Noah, Tyrus, Deng, Rose but there has to be a 3pt shooter on the floor with those 4. Hopefully Thabo is practicing 3s.
by NY Chicago Fan on
May 22, 2008 4:16 PM CDT
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This post is made of win.
If we select Beasley, I will punch something, or alternatively strangle a small cat.
Beasley looks and feels like the prototypical ‘bust’ at the top of the draft, at least from here. I see him possibly becoming Elton Brand and getting good numbers on a mediocre team three or four years from now, but more likely flaming out and performing like TT has, only it won’t be because of not playing him at all: whereas with Rose I see him possibly getting transcendant numbers on a good/great team three or four years from now. [Hopefully one that runs and guns, woo. That has little to do with scoring, though, and more to do with runnin’ and gunnin’ being awesome.]
by Prevenge on
May 22, 2008 2:31 PM CDT
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I've been watching Beasley footage over the last three days.
Based on my (clearly insufficient) sample, I really don’t know how to characterize his play.
At times, he reminds me of a fit version of Zach Randolph. An undersized, defensively indolent forward with a nice jumper, great hands, and good touch on the ball. He probably has a better handle than Randolph.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on
May 22, 2008 2:37 PM CDT
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"Defensively indolent"?! No thanks.
Dude, he better have a better handle than Zach Randolph.
by paxson43 on
May 22, 2008 7:56 PM CDT
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ok
so you can give Rose credit for leading a talented Memphis team to the Finals but are not gonna fault him for their collapse? He missed at least one free throw in the end stretch, and if you’re the point guard, you’re responsible for breaking the press and making sure the team gets good possessions with the leads. Yes, it was only one game but its not like his tournament run was perfect.
As for Beasley, he’s likely at least 6’9” and you say you’ve seen 20 and 10 college guys fail in the league but how about 26 and 14 college freshman? You can’t say you’ve seen them fail because to my knowledge its never happened before. He had a better season than Durant in the same conference and Durant seems to be doing pretty well for himself. To compare him to Fizer and Stromile Swift is incredibely silly, even to Brand. He had a one of a kind freshman season and shoud be looked at that way.
by JSlakov on
May 22, 2008 5:56 PM CDT
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In fact,
it’s never happened at all.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 22, 2008 6:03 PM CDT
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true
This is why I think that anyone who thinks Rose is the “obvious” pick hasn’t been watching a lot of college basketball. I would still prefer Rose, but it’s definitely not a Chris Paul vs. Marcus Fizer decision.
by potato0328 on
May 22, 2008 7:02 PM CDT
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Umm, yes it did
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=284000063
10 seconds remaining in regulation. Memphis up 2. Rose at the line for two shots. First one, miss. Second one, make. Rush runs the court, passes to Chalmers, he makes a three. Rose didn’t control that shot, but he damn well controlled both of his free throw attempts to extend the lead to 4.
blah blah blah, Rose is still the #1 overall pick in my view. I want him. But I do have some concerns about closing games. However, that’s why we have Ben Gordon and his 90+% FT shooting.
by NBA Observer on
May 23, 2008 9:11 AM CDT
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I was talking about the 26 and 14 comment.
The guy’s numbers are good enough. There’s no need to exaggerate.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 23, 2008 9:15 AM CDT
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And Kirk with his 90+% :)
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on
May 23, 2008 10:23 AM CDT
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Collapse?
Again, I have to say – what collapse? Getting blown out by Wisconsin in the second round sounds like more of a collapse than losing to Kansas in the National Final. I don’t ‘fault’ Rose for the ‘collapse’ of Memphis any more than I would Deron Williams for taking my Illini to the title game and falling short. That’s not a collapse, that’s a celebration. (And you continue to write that he missed ‘at least’ one free throw in the end stretch, after I’ve pointed out he was 3/4 from the line in that game, 34/44 overall in the tourney. It was ‘exactly’ one missed FT.)
You’re correct, I’ve never seen a NCAA freshman with 26 & 14 succeed in the NBA. That being the case, you’ve never seen one succeed, either. So that point is moot – so hypothetical as to be meaningless. If you or anyone else can convince me that Beasley is 6’11” or taller, and that he cares about playing defense and never takes a play off, then by all means he should be in the conversation.
But riddle me this – if Beasley doesn’t dominate Deng, Thomas, and Noah in pre-draft workouts, would your opinion change? That’s why I think the rumors coming out of the Berto Center will be the most interesting developments – how does Beasley fare against current pros? Because I view Rose as being pro-ready in the same way as Brandon Roy, though having different game.
by BullsFanInSeattle on
May 23, 2008 12:30 AM CDT
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Pre-draft workouts
Dude, Beasley and Rose won’t be playing against the Bulls in pre-draft workouts. The players in the draft play against each other in thier workouts. Beasley and Rose will probably workout individually though, since they aren’t really competing against anybody else.
Your argument sare ridiculous by the way. You’re basically saying since Beasley had a better college season than any freshman ever, you can’t tell if he’ll succeed in the NBA.
ANd people need to stop it with the height thing. Beasley is lsted at 6-10. Sure he might be shorter when measured barefoot, but aren’t all basketball players probably a little shorter than their height. Plus, most NBA power forwards are in the 6-8 to 6-10 range. Beasley fits in that range.
And geez, I’m not even a Beasley guy, but I keep having to defend him, because so many of the Rose guys are just so over the top and making it seem like any debate is just so ridiculous.
by rb22 on
May 23, 2008 7:42 AM CDT
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not necessarily true
When Noah came to workout his 2nd time, I believe he played against TT. The first time I think he was against Spencer Hawes. Not 100% sure, but I’m pretty sure Noah worked out against TT when he visited. that doesn’t mean TT or Noah will workout against Beasley of course.
by DangerMouse on
May 25, 2008 11:42 AM CDT
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yes, collapse
when you’re up 9 with 2 minutes left and you lose, thats a collapse, I don’t care if it is the title game. In fact the fact that its the title game makes it even worse in my opinion because it likely means the pressure got to them. I’m not saying Rose is singlehandedly to blame but he’s the point guard and he should take a lot of it.
by JSlakov on
May 23, 2008 9:12 AM CDT
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I just read Scoop Jackson on page 2
and the man re-affirms his status as local idiot once again. Seriously, stay in Slam. I wish people would stop saying drafting Beasley would address the Bulls post offense when every game I’ve seen Beasley play in, I see much more perimiter and three point offense than I want from my power forward. Those skills are nice and definitely make B-Easy a very prolific scorer, but he has a higher percentage of his offense come on the perimeter that it makes it hard to say this guy is your answer for post offense. Sure, he is also shown prolific post scoring ability, but everything else about him tells me the guy wants to play like a 3. And if he ends up being 6’ 8” instead of his listed 6’ 10”, that’s what you’ll have – a prolific scoring 3/4 hybrid. You don’t pass up on an elite PG for that.
by messwiththebull on
May 22, 2008 2:32 PM CDT
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I don't know preciesly how to articulate this point, but
when I see Beasley score in the post, it doesn’t seem as if he is employing standard, deliberate post moves. A lot of his points in the paint tend to come off of rebounds and, for lack of a btter term, scramble plays.
I know that, statistically speaking, rebaounding translates from college to the NBA, but I have trouble imagining him getting so many put backs against the much larger and more athletic NBA interiors.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on
May 22, 2008 2:41 PM CDT
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From a statistical point of view....
...one could possibly look at the number of baskets Beasley made that resulted in an assist (from a teammate) versus the number from his own offensive rebounds versus the rest. But without historical comparisons the exercise would be moot.
But I totally understand the point of view – which is why Beasley must school the Bulls’ current front-line before Pax even considers drafting him. That may be a time when Nocioni, of all players, earns his paycheck – have Noc try to get under each player’s skin in scrimmage and see how they react.
by BullsFanInSeattle on
May 22, 2008 3:04 PM CDT
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I read Scoop too
and although I normally think the guy is a moron, I think his column made snse.
by rb22 on
May 22, 2008 6:08 PM CDT
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thats because it did.
Rose put up decent numbers in a terrible conference. I don’t see how that automatically means he’ll put up above average numbers in the NBA.
Interestingly enough, ESPN has an article on Jerel McNeal. He had very similar numbers in a much better conference, is plenty athletic, played wonderful basketball in the postseason, and is one of the best on the ball defenders in the country, yet he wasn’t considered a lottery pick; not even a first rounder.
by darksmokepuncher on
May 22, 2008 9:46 PM CDT
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Your argument is immediately debunked
once you realize what Rose did in the tournament which is the biggest, most signficant stage at the highest level of competition. And the fact that you even mention Jerel McNeal in the same sentence as Rose says it all.
by messwiththebull on
May 22, 2008 10:27 PM CDT
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how is my argument debunked? Rose had a good tournament. So did Mcneal. He put up 35 on Kentucky, and followed that up by putting up 30 on Stanford (A team with two 7 footers who are going first round)
you have no argument against McNeal other than hes not as hyped as Rose. I’m not saying that McNeal is a better player, but I’ve yet to see anything from Rose that makes him a #1 pick. He put up good numbers in a poor conference on a team that would’ve gone deep in the tournament without him. I’ll take the big guy who puts up 26 and 12 instead.
by darksmokepuncher on
May 22, 2008 10:41 PM CDT
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they're college stats
not really translatable, until hollinger tells us how.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 22, 2008 11:13 PM CDT
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Another thing
Rose from what i seen..He can finish a fast break …Something we lacked ..Ive lost count how many times we blew an easy fast break…It was pitiful to watch..Ive watched other teams and they finished it with ease and better coordination..But not this team…
by SK23 on
May 22, 2008 3:40 PM CDT
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finish= DUNK
yup a pg that can throw it down on people
F HINRICH
by 234L on
May 22, 2008 3:45 PM CDT
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I forget where i read it
but someone said Rose was the most versatile PG to come in the league since Baron Davis. I like that comparison very much.
Blogabull... So Fresh and so Clean Clean!
by Goostafer on
May 22, 2008 4:03 PM CDT
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Chad Ford said that
He’s comparing the two because Baron in ‘99 was probably the most athletic PG to ever enter the league, and the stuff he did at UCLA no other PG could come close to.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on
May 22, 2008 4:42 PM CDT
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This is so true
I have Rose pegged closely to Jason Kidd in terms of ghosting an active NBA player. Rose was practically the PG and the Center for Simeon. He led the team in scoring, assists, AND rebounding. Yea yea, high school.
Derrick Rose rebounds like Kidd. He passes like Kidd. He shoots better than Kidd. Derrick Rose is 19 years old.
by NBA Observer on
May 23, 2008 9:14 AM CDT
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Calipari just repeated the whole
chin on the rim thing…and said it twice for emphasis, just like before.
He’s putting a lot of pressure on Rose at the pre-draft camp next week. You just know everyone’s gonna want to see it.
If true, this makes Rose one of the best jumpers…ever. I’ve never heard of anybody going over 50”.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 22, 2008 4:57 PM CDT
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Yeah, there's no way. Not without grabbing the rim first, anyway.
Your uber-athlete boy Joe can only get the top of his head almost equal to the rim. I doubt rose has a 7 or 8” higher vert than Alexander. Maybe.

by tyger1147 on
May 22, 2008 5:01 PM CDT
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Plus, Rose's chin starts out 5" lower than m'boy's.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 22, 2008 5:10 PM CDT
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I will say false until it actually happens
Calipari is a blowhard, and the height he speaks of is unheard of for a 6’3 PG.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on
May 22, 2008 5:03 PM CDT
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But if true,
I’d draft him just for that.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 22, 2008 5:11 PM CDT
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I'd draft him so he could live in my apt
I’d give him my U-Pass so he could go the UC.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on
May 22, 2008 5:21 PM CDT
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Question
When does Pre -draft camp starts?
I got a feeling Rose will amaze Paxson with his athleticism and upside…We all know he is a sucker for that :)
by SK23 on
May 22, 2008 5:39 PM CDT
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Rose at the pre-draft
measurements only. Maybe a private workout? Perhaps. But I don’t know if it’s possible to get a private workout with a lottery pick at the pre-draft camp. There are snakes and vultures all over Orlando for two weeks trying to get peaks at everyone.
Rose will do a private workout with the Bulls, I just think the team will fly him to Chicago to get it done.
by NBA Observer on
May 23, 2008 9:17 AM CDT
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Beasley and Rose
will both get workouts at the Berto. Pax said in one of his interviews they will be the only two players they bring in.
by sue369 on
May 23, 2008 11:03 AM CDT
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Not a good start
The more the merrier. Leverage the #1 pick for all it is worth.
by NBA Observer on
May 23, 2008 12:00 PM CDT
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What's to leverage from working out more players?
If you’re thinking of trading the pick, the only way Paxson would do so would be as part of a package to acquire an established All Star caliber player. Doubtful that the Bulls would be getting a first rounder back in such a deal.
If you’re referring to contract negotiations, it’s pointless to do so as the NBA has a very tight, slot-based rookie salary scale.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on
May 23, 2008 12:15 PM CDT
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it leverages for 5 years from now
when NBAO can tell us that Paxson really likes Brook Lopez and would trade for him, because in 2008 he worked him out at the Berto Center. Also, he shares an agent with Tommy Edwards.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 23, 2008 1:00 PM CDT
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lol
sorry NBAO, I’d have to completely disagree with you. What’s to leverage?
by NormVanBeer on
May 23, 2008 1:21 PM CDT
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The "leveraging"
comes from comments Riley made upon learning he’d lost the # pick.
Leverage only occurs if you don’t really want to execute the pick…for example, if you wanted #1, but got stuck with #2, maybe you could leverage it into trades or other picks.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 23, 2008 2:26 PM CDT
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Read above, NBAO said
Leverage the #1 pick for all it is worth.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on
May 23, 2008 3:03 PM CDT
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just like I said
what’s to leverage? There’s no leverage involved when you already have the #1 pick.
by NormVanBeer on
May 23, 2008 9:10 PM CDT
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Sam Smith on CTL right now.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 22, 2008 5:42 PM CDT
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cc
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 22, 2008 6:04 PM CDT
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Sam was asked if there's any way the Bulls don't pick Rose.
HIs response:
“There’s a very good scenario for picking Beasley…it’s making the pick, then Paxson resigns the next day.”
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 22, 2008 6:06 PM CDT
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DONT FUCK THIS UP PAX
i don’t even understand how this isn’t a unanimous decision for Rose. The guy was hands down the best player in the FInal Four. His O is sick his D has mad potential. He’s a pass first ‘true point.” Something our team hasn’t had in a long ass time. K. Hinrich is an over-paid scrub. Worth 6-7 mill a year MAX. Don’t defend Pax’s man crush. We’ve put up with Pax’s bs and Hinrich’s mediocrity for far too long. It’s time for Pax to make up for all his bs and give something back to the city of CHICAGO. Bring back the hometown hero. If this genius doesn’t draft him i wouldn’t be surprised if a riot didn’t break outside the united center. Look what CP3 did this year with NO. He made his whole team better, and those pick and roll alley-oops fired up his team/the crowd and put a lot of points on the board. The bottom line is everyone was crying about the low post before we got Gooden. With rose Gooden/Thomas/Noah all get at least 2x alley-oops a game. But what about our lack of a ‘true point’ that pick and rolls? Or a point that can take the game winin shot or throw up the game winning alley? Why cant we hav wat ohio has with a all-star that defends home because it is HOME?
by AFireInside661 on
May 22, 2008 6:26 PM CDT
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I wonder if the terms of the coaching search have changed
as a result of winning the lottery.
A week ago we needed a guy who could mold a bunch of equal parts into something greater than simple the sum of its parts.
Now, we need a coach who knows who to build a team around a superstar…because that’s what I believe Rose will be. (I don’t think there’s a chance in hell Paxson takes Beasley.)
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 22, 2008 8:26 PM CDT
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Juding from the candidates out there
It’s going to be hard to find a coach we know has had past success with creating, or helping superstars evolve. Also, consider the fact that Phoenix is also coachless. Their roster, while missing an identity without D’Antoni, is still geared for 50 wins in the West, and I’d hate to get into a competition with them for a head coach (The Jeff Hornaceck sweepstakes!)
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on
May 22, 2008 9:02 PM CDT
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manufactured debate!?
on a blog… never…
F HINRICH
by 234L on
May 22, 2008 8:26 PM CDT
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I'll be honest
idk a lot about Beasley and Rose but i got a rough idea of each others game watching a few final 4 games. So this may be a stupid question but does Beasley have a back to the baskett post up game. I know he has a J and can finish around the rim but does he even solve our low post scoring problems?
by eross226 on
May 22, 2008 10:27 PM CDT
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Yes
He is a low post scoring threat..And thats pretty much it…A good rebounder too…His impact wont be greater than Rose…He is capable of making those other 4 guys better..
by SK23 on
May 22, 2008 11:01 PM CDT
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if thats true, great
but just how do you know Rose is going to make everyone else better?
by darksmokepuncher on
May 22, 2008 11:04 PM CDT
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The disruptions in the defense
Rose has quickness, footwork, and the handles to get by his primary defender and into the paint. Once this happens the defense collapses on him. It has to. If it doesn’t he might put you in a poster. He also can put up a tear drop if he wants to. He’ll get fouled a lot in the paint. You won’t be able to guard him with a small pg so teams will be forced to defend him with their better defending guard leaving the weaker defending guard on Ben Gordon. Money baby.
Beasley will force defensive adjustments, but Rose can create chaos for the defense.
by NBA Observer on
May 23, 2008 9:22 AM CDT
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even if he is quick enough to do this
that puts him in the same field as Baron Davis, D Wade, and AI.
three guys that have spent their entire careers getting clobbered in the lane, and as a result spend a lot of time injured. I’ll take the guy who can get points in the paint without risking his career.
by darksmokepuncher on
May 23, 2008 9:26 AM CDT
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I disagree with just about everything you've said
except this.
I do see it as potentially a real problem. I think most of James Posey’s job on the Heat was to be an enforcer, a ready-retaliator against anyone who got too physical with Wade. And even then, Wade broke down.
Wade and Baron are about as strong and solid as any super athletic guard you’ll find, but no matter…there are guys just as tough and strong-as well as 6 inches taller and 100 lbs heavier-whose sole intent is to stop them any way they can.
So, you’re right. This is a worry for me.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 23, 2008 9:59 AM CDT
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lol, Wade
His injuries are more his own fault. He sucks at landing. It’s a show. He’s selling calls.
Baron is another story. He had knee problems in high school and at UCLA. Rose has nothing like this.
by NBA Observer on
May 23, 2008 10:09 AM CDT
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"he sucks at landing"
instead of having refined tumbling skills after getting to the basket, why not just work your teams offense through the post?
Even a healthy Baron Davis with a team around him thats better than the Bulls didn’t make the playoffs.
by darksmokepuncher on
May 23, 2008 10:28 AM CDT
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speaking of landings
that one cut in the Rose montage-I think it’s vs Washington-where he gets hammered going in for a dunk…and lands as gracefully as a cat.
Amazing.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
May 23, 2008 10:52 AM CDT
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I always thought Baron's injury problems
was because he was fat.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 23, 2008 10:31 AM CDT
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He tore his ACL in college
While coming down from a dunk….I don’t think that happened because he was chunky.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on
May 23, 2008 10:33 AM CDT
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a vicious cycle
maybe that’s why he got chunky.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 23, 2008 10:57 AM CDT
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"making other guys better"
how about drawing a double team, something no one has done for the Bulls for god knows how long? Having wide open looks would make a lot of people better, especially Hinrich, Gordon and Deng since knocking down open jumpers is pretty much the meat of their games.
by JSlakov on
May 22, 2008 11:57 PM CDT
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rose
didn’t often draw double teams in college. I don’t see him doing it in the nba.
If you want someone who draws defensive attention, then Beasley is your man.
by darksmokepuncher on
May 23, 2008 12:02 AM CDT
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sorry about that
I misunderstood you
by darksmokepuncher on
May 23, 2008 9:19 AM CDT
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For starters
He is a Natural PG...Scouts compare him to CP3,Baron Davis and Dwayne wade…He gets to the basket and lane with ease…
If you wanna develop our players right…Players like Deng..Thabo..Tyrus and Noah…Rose is the way to go…..Because Kirk has already reached his ceiling..Wont get better..and isnt a Natural PG…
by SK23 on
May 22, 2008 11:42 PM CDT
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hes a natural pg
Dwade is not a natural pg…hes not a pg at all.
and a lot of players get to the lane with ease in college. the nba is a different story, especially when you’re 6’3”
by darksmokepuncher on
May 22, 2008 11:49 PM CDT
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Wade is not a PG
Yes, he can slash and create chaos for the defense, but he’s a weak passer that leads to his NBA leading turnover statistics.
Rose is a superior passer.
by NBA Observer on
May 23, 2008 9:27 AM CDT
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Baron Davis is not a natural PG
Wade…not a natural PG.
The Bulls haven’t had a real PG since Jay Williams for 1 season. That’s not a knock on Kirk, there’s just no reason in making him out to be something he’s not.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on
May 22, 2008 11:54 PM CDT
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meh, Jason Williams wasn't really a PG either
He scores. He doesn’t see the whole half court well enough to know spacing and movements leading to passing the ball to open spaces where his teammates are going to be.
by NBA Observer on
May 23, 2008 9:28 AM CDT
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LOL
I didnt say Baron or Wade are natural PG’S….That would be crazy now..Im just stating what scouts compared him to
by SK23 on
May 23, 2008 12:03 AM CDT
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psssttt... got a tip for ya
start using the “reply” button, or you might get threats from the management
by tyger1147 on
May 23, 2008 8:44 AM CDT
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Chad Ford looks to be changing his mind
However, listening to Paxson during the podcast closely, it sounds to me like the theoretical guy he’s describing - the player who is a leader, who makes people better, has great character and can be a franchise player - sounds like it’s Rose. Paxson denied it on the interview, but more and more people in the league seem to be coming to the conclusion that this is Rose’s pick to lose.
by Option27 on
May 23, 2008 1:20 AM CDT
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I like how you put that paragraph as your own...
...but then copied and pasted Ford’s fourth paragraph. C’mon!!! There’s better guys out there to plagiarize. Seriously, though, wtf?
by tyger1147 on
May 23, 2008 8:47 AM CDT
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i'm still getting used to the new format
Take it easy
by Option27 on
May 23, 2008 12:55 PM CDT
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Dude, if it was just the formatting, it'd be one thing.
But it’s not. Read what you typed. The first 13 words were entirely your own and they led directly into copied and pasted text. You were going to start the blockquote where….
I have no idea why you did that.
by tyger1147 on
May 24, 2008 11:31 AM CDT
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Bingo
But expect Paxspeak to juggle the consensus number 1 pick. He’ll float back and forth until draft day in hopes of attracting better offers.
You use the #1 pick for all of its powers other than it’s right to pick any player you want. It’s mystical.
by NBA Observer on
May 23, 2008 9:31 AM CDT
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Plus everyone will be hanging on his every word
It’s gotta be nice to feed the ego considering how many hits he’s taken over the past 2 years.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on
May 24, 2008 10:26 AM CDT
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"Well, I'm almost already sick of draft talk. And it's not until June 26th."
Wow, not surprisingly ingrateful, Matt. I’d stop complaining and remember the luck you’ve received. I’m happy for your team, excited to see what comes of it, but think you’re being a little whiney complaining about manufactured debates… embrace it, this shit only comes once in a lifetime, at the very least.
by thethinktank on
May 27, 2008 1:41 AM CDT
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