Time to Get Rid of Pax?

by bulls*hit on May 12, 2008 9:43 PM CDT

It's not that I hate him or still hold a grudge for the past mistakes he's done, but I was just wondering what you guys think on John Paxson. What are your opinions on him, his decisions, how he leads this team's future? Sure, he's made a few wavery choices in the past that have backfired (i.e. Tyson Chandler, JR Smith, Crawford, Aldridge, etc.) but he has gotten us Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden (not to mention Viktor)!! And although he has passed up many opportunities whether the cause be luxury tax or just being cheap only offering $16 mil compared to NYs $24mil (oh wait, that was Reinsdorf), he has proven to get us in the playoffs several consecutive years. So just comment on how mean I am to him or how much you agree with me, but make sure it's Pax-related. Personally, I vote to see how things turn out next year and if its as disappointing as Mutombo's attempt to play 20 years younger, I will sign up for this. [1st post -- yes, i'm proud.]

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When should we get rid of him?

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i get the feeling

you highly dislike john paxson.

Finally: The End.

by ChiTownCritic on May 12, 2008 9:47 PM CDT 0 recs

it's good to know so few have bothered with the final revision of the story

D’Antoni deciding not to hear the Bulls’ offer will fit right in with McHale turning down Chandler-Deng-#2, Heisley holding out for Kwame, and Bucher getting trade info from the Kobe Video Guys.

by hscs on May 12, 2008 10:19 PM CDT 0 recs

That makes it even worse

Obviously he decided that the Bulls organization was so screwed up that he didn’t even want to wait for an offer before taking another job. It’s quite a coincidence that he met with Reinsdorf on Friday, and took the Knicks job on Saturday. It would actually be better if money were the issue, since that’s a relatively easy problem to solve (just start offering more money). Apparently something else about the Bulls organization chased him away.

by Big D on May 12, 2008 11:26 PM CDT up 0 recs

if you read the sam smith

article (linked from one of the fanshots), he makes it seem that d’antoni was insulted at the suggestion that he hire a defensive assistant, which he balked at when kerr suggested it too.

and you know what, as much as i think he should be able to bring in his own staff, i kind of agree with the bulls in this instance. if you are an offensive specialist, why wouldn’t you want to get someone to help you with the other end? you’ve had a winning team, but you haven’t even gone to the finals.

by Jaina on May 12, 2008 11:30 PM CDT up 0 recs

Yup.

And we all know how easy it is to get to the finals.

by McCabe on May 12, 2008 11:31 PM CDT up 0 recs

well

given the team he’s had, you’d think they might make a better showing. though i’ll admit they were robbed last year with the suspensions, so who knows what would have happened.

by Jaina on May 12, 2008 11:37 PM CDT up 0 recs

Not sure I understand your point

I’m not sure it’s the final revision of the story, but I can tell a couple things pretty clearly.

Like most management, it breaks down into judgement and execution. Did I want the right thing, and was I able to make it happen?

1. The Bulls wanted D’Antoni and were willing to pay to get him. As far as I can tell, you consider that a fairly significant error in judgement by itself. I don’t so much agree, I think he was a pretty good fit for this team, and it.

2. By most all accounts D’Antoni wanted to come here at the outset of negotiations and the Bulls obviously wanted him at the end of them. So I don’t think there’s any doubt that, in one way or another they turned him off when in fact they were trying to turn him on.

by Sports2 on May 14, 2008 10:09 AM CDT up 0 recs

This is a VERY difficult

time of year to fire a GM

by hlac on May 12, 2008 10:23 PM CDT 0 recs

i'm still stuck at

“When should we get rid of him?”

I didn’t know that we had a say in the matter…

by NormVanBeer on May 12, 2008 10:44 PM CDT 0 recs

again...

“opinions.”

[Tyrus Thomas]
--"Million dollar talent, ten cent head."

by bulls*hit on May 12, 2008 11:03 PM CDT up 0 recs

Damn, SBN2.0 fixed the bug

that was keeping me from seeing polls.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 12, 2008 10:50 PM CDT 0 recs

Yea lets get rid of pax

by Cherishfaith on May 17, 2008 10:46 PM CDT up 0 recs

Getting rid of him has been

my stance for some time now. I could change my tune, but will depend on the series of upcoming moves to be made (current players, draft, free agency, etc)

"Who did we think we were"

by Thirdrock on May 13, 2008 8:57 AM CDT 0 recs

why is he gm anyway?

what did he do before hand to lead one to believe that he’d be a good gm? other than hitting the shot against the suns

Super Bowl XLI MVP Rex Grossman
Chicago Bulls Captain and Starting Point Guard Kirk Hinrich...
Same Person

by 234L on May 13, 2008 10:27 AM CDT 0 recs

sounded smart?

it’s enough of a qualification when you look at who else gets hired.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 13, 2008 10:41 AM CDT up 0 recs

When he was hired people were joyful

Paxson “cleaned house”,, drafted Kirk, Luol, and BG, then traded Curry for the Noah and Tyrus picks. That made him a top 5 GM in many respects, but as reports kept swirling around that he was either unable, unwilling, or just wasn’t allowed due to budget concerns to acquire a big name star like KG or Gasol, people basically realized Paxson wasn’t as smart as they made him out to be. He put the Bulls back on the track to respectability, but for me he was just a Skiles clone in the front office. Good at getting a young group of talent that will work their butts off, but I doubt he could build a title contender, especially if he wasn’t given the gift of 5 lottery picks via cheap owners and Isiah Thomas.

Rusty Longley v 2.0

by Ozzie Montana on May 13, 2008 12:10 PM CDT up 0 recs

but why the initial hire

Super Bowl XLI MVP Rex Grossman
Chicago Bulls Captain and Starting Point Guard Kirk Hinrich...
Same Person

by 234L on May 13, 2008 2:10 PM CDT up 0 recs

I dont know if this helps to answer the question but..

Paxson is pretty much regarded as a real nice guy, and fairly smart. I mean the bulls were pretty bad when Paxson was about to take over, and im thinking not many people were up to the task of cleaning the team up. Paxson, who is famous for his efforts against the suns and being one of the few guys that jordan really liked, stepped up and came in with a philosophy on how to run the team and lo and behold he did just as he promised.

He created something alot of people thought was grand, and made the mistake of loving it too much. I think the kobe and pau gasol trade were mistakes cuz paxson felt that this team as is could go all the way. We now know he was wrong and he should have traded some of the pieces when they were worth every dime. The only real chance he took (ben wallace) ended up as a stinker, so although its not proffesional, its understandable why he is so cautious.

Umm…okay i know you wont like anything past the first paragraph so i apologize.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on May 13, 2008 4:56 PM CDT up 0 recs

This is true

Paxson did clean up a mess with the Bulls when he came in. But when you look at the pattern of good NBA GM”s, they have to be constantly willing to improve a roster. The Western Conference realizes this, as evidenced by all the action at the trade deadline this year. For some reason, the East won’t get this hint…and the Bulls are at the forefront of these inactive East teams.

Nothing substantial was done to improve the roster last offseason – would of, should of, could of. Paxson can only really save his reputation as a GM this offseason. He’s got to get rid of the stale, low-value players (probably Gordon, Duhon, maybe Tyrus). He’s got to show the courage to improve this roster in a big way – and serious changes are necessary. NBA teams don’t have seasons like we had last season, and miraculously turn things around the next with the same roster. Huge, efficient moves are needed – if they don’t happen I can’t get excited about our chances. We need to take a page out of the Western Conference teams (heck we could even learn from the non-playoff moves of the Sonics and Blazers of last season).

by swede2287 on May 18, 2008 10:27 AM CDT up 0 recs

Young, raw players

with big potential (Gordon, Noah have never had big potential) are fine adds with me. Even if we won’t win as many games next year. I would take a couple less wins next year – IF we put ourself in a position to be GREAT a couple years from now.

by swede2287 on May 18, 2008 10:30 AM CDT up 0 recs

This offseason is not going well - so far

Paxson of Reinsdorf will not be the starting backcourt come training camp.

Actually we have no idea who will?

by exult463 on May 13, 2008 12:30 PM CDT 0 recs

Paxson or ...

by exult463 on May 13, 2008 12:30 PM CDT up 0 recs

picked the wrong guard

shoulda gone with kerr instead

Super Bowl XLI MVP Rex Grossman
Chicago Bulls Captain and Starting Point Guard Kirk Hinrich...
Same Person

by 234L on May 13, 2008 2:10 PM CDT 0 recs

or Hinrich

you’re a fan of his, right?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 13, 2008 2:18 PM CDT up 0 recs

only a matter of time b4 they retire his jersey

Super Bowl XLI MVP Rex Grossman
Chicago Bulls Captain and Starting Point Guard Kirk Hinrich...
Same Person

by 234L on May 13, 2008 2:43 PM CDT up 0 recs

So were on the same page?

You gotta be legendary to have your jersey retired right??

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on May 13, 2008 4:57 PM CDT up 0 recs

hmmm

I honestly think he will pull off some good deals during the off season…More pressure added on which can be a good thing or be disastrous.Theres still time to fix this crap of a mess he created

by SK23 on May 13, 2008 2:43 PM CDT 0 recs

the only thing Pax has going for him

is he got rid of an untradeable contract in Ben Wallace, now to Hughes :)

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on May 13, 2008 3:12 PM CDT 0 recs

Cleveland

wanted badly to move the lazy-poison Hughes that they took on Wallace whose contract is a year less than Hughes? Maybe they desired Joe Smith? because his outside shot works better and more in Lebrons favor than clog up the lane Gooden

Who really is the winner, cleveland might argue.. with Wallace they have a bad contract for only two more years, but Chicago with Hughes, Paxson has a bad contract for three more years?

by exult463 on May 13, 2008 7:13 PM CDT up 0 recs

the years on the Wallace and Hughes deals

are the same.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 13, 2008 7:51 PM CDT up 0 recs

Cleveland still got the better deal

Delonte West looks like a fine option at PG, Larry Hughes was just a waste of life, and an Anderson Varejao/Joe Smith combo can do whatever Drew Gooden did in Cleveland, with 10 times the flopping.

Rusty Longley v 2.0

by Ozzie Montana on May 13, 2008 9:45 PM CDT up 0 recs

There doesn't have to be a "winner" in all trades

I think Chicago, Cleveland, and Seattle all got what they wanted out of the deal. Nobody hit a home run, but Seattle got cap space, Cleveland got some role players to help LeBron, and the Bulls got rid of Ben Wallace.

by rb22 on May 14, 2008 9:48 AM CDT up 0 recs

I'm trying to figure out all of this D'Antoni business

There are so many accounts of what happened we won’t know for sure, but no matter which possibility I think through it doesn’t paint Paxson in a very good light.

Most of the scenarios I can think of just have Pax being sort of bumbling, taking his sweet time, and turning off D’Antoni. In that case he obviously missed his chance, and then made himself out to be a whiner with his “it’s unfair” comments afterward.

Then, there’s accounts where Paxson was gung-ho to get D’Antoni and Reinsdorf balked, screwed it up, or did everything right and D’Antoni just flaked out.

Lots of folks who seem to be trying to defend the Bulls want to call D’Antoni a flake. I don’t see it that way. First, if actions are what I have to go on, D’Antoni is the guy standing up and saying “don’t make an offer, it’s not about money”, and Pax and Reinsdorf are crying about unfairness.

But set that aside for a moment. The bigger reason this is a problem for Pax is that the sequence of events sounds something like this:
1. Pax is blown away by D’Antoni and tells Reinsdorf he wants him.
2. Reinsdorf, who’s mentioned his desire for a “defensive mentality” in his coach has to be sold on it.
3. So operating on Paxson’s suggestion, Reinsdorf goes against his natural instinct, sticks himself out there…
4. ... and gets burned in a major way.

I’m not saying that’s exactly what happened, but when I work that out in my head, if I’m Jerry Reinsdorf I’m not very happy with John Paxson’s performance.

by Sports2 on May 14, 2008 10:00 AM CDT 0 recs

Factor in

D’Antoni’s wife wanted to go to NY…not Chicago. It may have had nothing to do with anything Pax and Reinsdorf did or didn’t do.

by sue369 on May 14, 2008 10:22 AM CDT up 0 recs

and if that's the case

well, nothing we could do about that. though i personally would never ever choose NY over chicago and laugh at people who would. i really don’t like new york, but people from there usually think it is the end all be all of places to live.

by Jaina on May 14, 2008 10:25 AM CDT up 0 recs

that's very very flimsy.

very.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 14, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up 0 recs

Understatement of the year.

by Sports2 on May 14, 2008 10:48 AM CDT up 0 recs

He's married

to her and your not.

by sue369 on May 14, 2008 3:09 PM CDT up 0 recs

no, you're not.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 14, 2008 3:15 PM CDT up 0 recs

thanks

by sue369 on May 14, 2008 3:21 PM CDT up 0 recs

if this guy is doing what his wife wants him to do then i'm glad we didn't get him.

i wish someone had told me that sportsnation had replaced rationality with caps lock.

by MarketMaker on May 15, 2008 11:23 PM CDT up 0 recs

Right

Because men who take a woman’s opinions and wishes into consideration are clearly wimps, and obviously she couldn’t have had a rational basketball thought in her pretty little head.

My Bulls may suck, but my Jayhawks are National Champs!

by wjb1492 on May 16, 2008 9:07 AM CDT up 0 recs

clearly

This is how MarketMaker is able to give up his house in blog bets. Complete authority.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 16, 2008 9:28 AM CDT up 0 recs

This reminds me of a time

when I actually did bet the house on a trade.

I didn’t consult with my wife before making the bet, and after I lost it (the bet and the house), she made her feelings known by filing for divorce. The fact that she was pregnant at the time may have contributed to her rather extreme response…but I did learn that I am not the only one involved in potential life-changing decisions.

I think D’Antoni, to his credit, intuited that, without having to go through the experience.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on May 16, 2008 9:29 AM CDT up 0 recs

llol

by tyger1147 on May 16, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up 0 recs

Dude.

by Sports2 on May 16, 2008 1:13 PM CDT up 0 recs

no kidding

alec’s either joking, or a bit deranged.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 16, 2008 1:30 PM CDT up 0 recs

(and I recognize he's already shown to be a bit deranged)

I mean specifically in this instance.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 16, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up 0 recs

It's a real story.

We’d just put a bid down on a new house.

I’d been working a huge trade for weeks, building a bigger and bigger position. It wasn’t going well, so I decided to take a vacation…and leave the whole thing on to let it resolve itself. Which it did. We came back a week later to a 6 figure debit.

I took her out to a nice restaurant and broke the news.

Turns out she ended up getting the house she wanted…just not with me in it.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on May 16, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up 0 recs

ok, thanks for weirding eveyone out.

I hate you.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 16, 2008 2:08 PM CDT up 0 recs

Fine.

Let me bring it back to basketball, and John Paxson in particular.

I really want to see him increase the size of his bets.

This Beasley talk is a good example. If there’s any truth to the story, and McHale is in any way willing to make Beasley available, Paxson must see it as his best opportunity to date to get the kind of difference-maker a championship team demands.

Paxson’s incrementalist approach is not going to get us anywhere, except incrementally better. Who cares about that? I’d much rather see him take a huge swing…and miss, than doom the Bulls to interminable mediocrity.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on May 16, 2008 2:31 PM CDT up 0 recs

well we can at least wait

until the lottery results.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 16, 2008 2:34 PM CDT up 0 recs

lolllll

Rusty Longley v 2.0

by Ozzie Montana on May 16, 2008 4:44 PM CDT up 0 recs

that was pretty mean

: ’’’ (

Tyrus Thomas
-"Million dollar talent, ten cent head."

by bulls*hit on May 20, 2008 11:24 PM CDT up 0 recs

Oh dear lord.

I thought that was funny when I thought he was joking. I still think he is. I can’t possibly take this as someone being serious. That D’Antoni line was priceless. God, I hope it was imagined from “joking” place and not a serious one.

by tyger1147 on May 17, 2008 9:27 AM CDT up 0 recs

MarketMaker seems to be on vacation.

The truth is, and I’m sure he can confirm it, my little all-or-nothing story is pretty ho-hum stuff in our industry. What was the outcome? The firm made me promise in writing not to go on vacation with more than $x exposure.

An odd thing about the trading biz is that it’s much easier for a trader to raise money to try again after completely blowing-up than it is for a moderately successful mid-pack trader to find backers to increase his size. (Again—the Paxson anology.)

Maybe the reason for that seeming anomaly is that at least it shows you’re willing to be wrong…and you can’t ever be right for much if you’re not willing to put it out there and risk being big wrong.

It’s a fun job, and I’d recommend it to anyone who gets a kick from being out on a limb. Maybe Khalid should give it a try. Who knows? MarketMaker might even give him a job.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on May 17, 2008 10:54 AM CDT up 0 recs