why its all kirks fault... v. -3-3=12
by 234L
on May 10, 2008 9:02 PM CDT
sitting here watching ben wallace in the celtics v. cavs game and also reflecting on a recent thread about Chandler I think management messed up by not letting them play together. The Bulls traded Chandler to free up space both on the floor and in the checkbook. That summer they also signed Captain Kirk Hinrich to a fat longterm deal (4 year $10.2 million). Ben Wallace and the success in detroit came with Rasheed Wallace playing next to him. when on the Bulls Wallace was it down low, except for Joe Smith... and it was too much for him to handle. he was injured and stunk. He didnt deliver when we played Detroit in the playoffs. But BW is playing well for the Cavs and i think him at pf and Z at C is pretty fearsome. Makes me think what BW at pf and Tyson at 5 coulda been. I think both would have enabled each other to reach the peak of their games, but alone both were set up to fail. In many ways this move was also made due to a misplaced overconfidence in the overall guard play. I don't think too many GMs would disagree that Chandler is more valuable now than Hinrich, dunno what theyd say about wallace v. hinrich, yet we we got rid of both big guys kinda sorta because of kirk, no chandler meant wallace was doomed. If not for Kirk's contract the bulls may have been able to afford the luxury of 2 amazing bigs. yea offense would be a problem, but kirk's offense isnt the answer or existent or worthy of a starting roster spot on most teams.
not sure if this is chronologically accurate but if the above were true and we had not resigned kirk but invested in both tyson and BW then Ty2 would not have been drafted, but Brandon Roy instead. This would have given some needed offense to a poor scoring frontcourt. Ah what could have been...
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time of (re)signings and trades
might be off but i stand by my premise thats its all kirks fault
Super Bowl XLI MVP Rex Grossman
Chicago Bulls Captain and Starting Point Guard Kirk Hinrich...
Same Person
by 234L on May 10, 2008 9:07 PM CDT 0 recs
ummm
not only does that sentence not appear anywhere in the post but the sentence you may be referring to was also 100% accurate about his level of play with Z at the time it was written. Furthermore if u stopped reading and have nothing to contribute seriously why post anything at all?
Super Bowl XLI MVP Rex Grossman
Chicago Bulls Captain and Starting Point Guard Kirk Hinrich...
Same Person
by 234L on
May 10, 2008 10:44 PM CDT
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So what you're saying is...
that sentence isn’t there, but if it is there then it was accurate at the time?
Technically, you are correct – it’s not a sentence, it’s just a part of a sentence, and it doesn’t say BW is playing well for Cleveland, it says BW is playing well for the Cavs. Key distinctions there. But who knows – it’s quite possible that was accurate at 9:02 pm and became inaccurate by 9:26 pm.
Personally I’m more fond of the idea that your acknowledge your facts may be wrong, but you stick by your premise anyway.
My Bulls may suck, but my Jayhawks are National Champs!
by wjb1492 on
May 10, 2008 11:05 PM CDT
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"But BW is playing well for the Cavs and i think him at pf and Z at C is pretty fearsome"
Am I missing something?
Look at his stats with the Cavs. I seriously think 100% accurate is pushing it.
There is a reason that a lot of us at BaB frequently watched the games he played or looked at the box score after he was traded.
Pretty much to laugh at him and the Cavs.
You know what? I’ll go out on a limb here and say he is as much a bust for the Cavs as he was for the Bulls.
by Option27 on
May 10, 2008 11:40 PM CDT
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I would say...
that Hinrich is better than Wallace. But I still think they should possibly look to deal him and Nocioni in a package.
by wrigleyrocker12 on May 10, 2008 10:15 PM CDT 0 recs
wallace v. hinrich
i dunno u might be right. but i think that even tho Wallace isnt as good as he can be or was and even if overall he is not as good as kirk, BW adds a dimension (when playing well/with another good big) that few in the NBA can. I cant say the same thing about kirk, who doesnt seem to add any element to the team that cannot be replaced.
Super Bowl XLI MVP Rex Grossman
Chicago Bulls Captain and Starting Point Guard Kirk Hinrich...
Same Person
by 234L on
May 10, 2008 10:49 PM CDT
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playing with another
dude serioulsy if Wallace is better by playing along another big man, then we all know that kirk is better when playing along a better gaurd (especially on the defensive end). Him carrying the load of gaurding the bigger guys obviously takes a toll on his game. Your post was one of the funniest things I have read, it was a much needed laugh I guess.
Ralph Wiggum, a smarter man than Jim Boylan
by Yibs on
May 11, 2008 5:45 PM CDT
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And I used to think consistency was admirable
My Bulls may suck, but my Jayhawks are National Champs!
by wjb1492 on May 10, 2008 11:00 PM CDT 0 recs
This is absurd...
... wallace is a corpse. I still can’t believe we chose him over chandler. I love watching the Cavs play just to watch the Corpse f**k up. Ha, ha…
The No 1 Chi -Town sports fan in Europe!
by Vangelis on May 11, 2008 6:13 AM CDT 0 recs
So what you're saying
is that despite the fact we picked up a larger albeit expiring contract in PJ Brown, we wouldn’t have been able to afford Chandler because of Hinrich’s contract. The reason that we got rid of Chandler was because he and Scott Skiles didn’t like each other. You’re also assuming that Chandler would have grown into the player that he has become in New Orleans.
Just for kicks, lets just imagine that the Bulls kept Chandler and didn’t sign Hinrich to a long term deal. As you said, the Bulls would to get backcourt scoring from their number 2 spot in the draft. This time they don’t trade down because Charlotte is right behind them, so they step into their spot and choose Adam Morrison from Gonzaga. Morrison, if you remember, was projected to be better than Roy. Now, instead of being a fantastic possibility, we are looking at one of the biggest busts of recent NBA history.
Listen, we get that you HATE Hinrich, but to say that its all his fault is kind of ridiculous.
"Worker bees can leave.
Even drones can fly away.
The Queen is their slave."
by jpchi on May 11, 2008 9:26 AM CDT 0 recs
don't tell anybody
but i dont really think its all his fault, it is ridiculous to blame one player… thats why i do it, to bring some levity to my constant hinrich hate.
as far as chandlers maturity i don’t see any talents that he has developed with the hornets that he didnt have with the bulls. its not like he has developed polished offensive moves (alleyoop doesnt count). for the most part i think he is the same product that we traded away, he just has a point guard. I guess my initial post came from a feeling that the bulls have chosen the wrong direction for a couple of years and I think it is as if a minor but more visible symptom of a bad team (no low post scoring) masked (and may have been a result of) the real problem which was misplaced confidence in the Bulls as a perimeter jump shooting team with solid guard play (led by Captain Kirk). A couple years later the whole frontcourt is new and improved but the guards are virtually the same and the team is terrible. This leads me to believe that the bulls were wrong in assessing Kirk’s value to the team both then and in the future and have been addressing the wrong positions on the roster. Having invested so much in shoring up the frontcourt recently only to find that the perimeter game wasnt there leads me to believe that the bulls’ new focus should be on improving the guards of which Hinrich is the weakest link when u factor in production and $
Super Bowl XLI MVP Rex Grossman
Chicago Bulls Captain and Starting Point Guard Kirk Hinrich...
Same Person
by 234L on
May 11, 2008 10:27 AM CDT
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WOW
Chandler and Wallace together that would be a sight, best defensive frontcourt in the league, NOT. They would suck and neither could score so then defenses could absolutely shut down the guard play. We shouldn’t even bring up the name Ben Wallace.
Tyrus is a mini-Chandler anyway- same game just a few inches shorter.
Kirk Hinrich- “2009 NBA Most Improved Player”
by un-Bull-leavea-Bull on
May 11, 2008 11:59 AM CDT
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nobody would be happier than me
Super Bowl XLI MVP Rex Grossman
Chicago Bulls Captain and Starting Point Guard Kirk Hinrich...
Same Person
by 234L on
May 11, 2008 12:42 PM CDT
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Paragraphs
Break it up, it’s hard to read. Not just because it’s one gigantic rant, but you know. If you acknowledge the fact that it isn’t entirely Hinrich’s fault, then let’s move on, this topic is over done.
by nobullishbasketball on May 11, 2008 11:07 PM CDT 0 recs
Well in my opinion
it isn’t all hinrich’s fault as much as it is mostly his fault. i highly doubt we can get hinrich back into his 06-07 form for the 08-09 season, and his contract is in fact highly tradable. the defense he was known for is not there anymore and the offense, well, we’ve seen that sort of dissintigrate throughout the season. i haven’t really seen him live up to the title of PG but he certainly can’t be a SG and i’m guessing he’ll be out in no time. but, as we all know the John Paxson that can’t make a good decision to save his life, God knows what’ll happen to this team by next season.
[Tyrus Thomas]
--"Million dollar talent, ten cent head."
by bulls*hit on May 11, 2008 11:21 PM CDT 0 recs
You doubt
A player can go back to his form from two years ago, when he is only now entering/in his prime? Jeez, you make it sound as if hinrich is at age 32 with his best years behind him or something. The bulls have gotta start making some moves and get people thinking positive, cuz some of the comments are beginning to sound weird.
im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.
by piccolomair on
May 12, 2008 2:21 AM CDT
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We are a complaining crew, arent' we?
Heck, not that long ago pretty much everyone was griping about Wallace and his untradeable contract, and how anything was better than him. Fast forward a bit, and we’ve just replaced that with lots of moaning about Larry Hughes and his untradeable contract. (Not to mention, of course, the moaning and groaning over the coaching search!)
My Bulls may suck, but my Jayhawks are National Champs!
by wjb1492 on
May 12, 2008 10:08 AM CDT
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yes i doubt it!
until hinrich actually gets better he still sucks… i have not seen anything to lead me to lead me to believe he will improve, only fleeting glimpses of mediocrity.
Super Bowl XLI MVP Rex Grossman
Chicago Bulls Captain and Starting Point Guard Kirk Hinrich...
Same Person
by 234L on
May 12, 2008 10:26 AM CDT
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i'm not a Hinrich fan
but it’s not mostly or all his fault. He is what he is. He’s not going to get much better or much worse. Fortunately, or unfortunately (depending on how you look at it) I think we’ve seen his best and his worse already. The whole team sucked this past season. I don’t believe that everyone is as bad as they played.
by NormVanBeer on
May 12, 2008 10:50 AM CDT
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Crazy
Some of you Hinrich haters have just gone completely crazy. For whatever reason he was terrible last year, but so was almost everybody on the team. Prior to that though, he was a top 10 point guard in the league. Maybe he won’t return to that, but it’s definitely not out of the question. I think the few years of good play are a bettter indicator than 1 year of bad play. He’s 27 and in what should be his prime years of his career. No, he’s never gonna be Chris Paul, Deron Wiliams or anybody like that, but he’s a better point guard than half of the teams in the league have. We just need to realize that he’s not a franchise player. He’s a solid starting point guard who plays both ends. Unfortunately, since we don’t have a all star caliber player or anybody on offense to give the ball to and create, Kirk has been asked to do too much and people have made it seems like it’s his fault. I think if we can get a better offensive player, and Kirk can be the 3rd or 4th option on offense that he’s supposed to be, everybody will be back on the Kirk bandwagon. Paxson needs to make something happen though, because right now we have no go-to player on offense who can create shots for others or themselves, and it’s making all of the solid role players that we have look bad.
And the thing about the Chandler-Ben Wallace combo at the 4 & 5 being successful is even more crazy. Both those guys are energy bigs who are productive because of their defense, rebounding, energy, and shot-blocking. They are successful when the have a skilled big alongside them (the Rasheed and David West examples) as well as other guys on thier team who can score and occasionally get them easy buckets. You can’t play 2 of them together or you have no offense coming from your 4 & 5.
by rb22 on
May 12, 2008 11:30 AM CDT
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aside from joe smith
we havent had good scoring down low anyway so Chandler Wallace would have at least solidified the defensive frontcourt and who knows how that would translate offensively, right now nothing is solid. Look at the starting lineup for most of the season. it was Joe Smith@PF and BW @C. if u think that combo is better than BW @4 and TC @5 then put the crack pipe down. I’m not tryinbg to relive how bad BW is/was cause i was disappointed in his play as a bull, yet i don’t think he was set up to succeed here w/o another talented big to free him up a lil. I like Noah much better than chandler tho and Gooden is well, good.
I agree with a lot of what u said, except for the idea that kirk was once really good. Top 10 pg? i think not. at his best he has been a decent pg. What teams would trade their starting pd for kirk straight up? i didnt look thru depth charts but i dont think there are many My point of view and the reason for this post was to show that be it signing BW and keeping tyson or trading for a star (Kobe, KG, Gasol) for better or WORSE the bulls have kept hinrich and his $10 million around. That $10 million and the reluctance to part with Kirk even if it might bring a star are the reasons the Bulls have not acquired the star that just about everybody agrees this team needs to become an elite team. In addition it has been said that kirks contract has set the standard for resigning both gordon and deng, who should command more money because they are better/more valuable than kirk, and limited the offers the bulls made last summer and might cause pax to allow either deng or gordon to slip away.
lets jump back in the time machine to when pax was rejecting deals for Kobe, KG, and Gasol, because he refused to breakup the young core of the baby bulls. in hindsight Pax f’d up. Fast forward to now and the guards are the same + Hughes. Peeps can hate on hughes and i understand a lot of that, but at the end of the day he is a better bball player than hinrich which will leave kirk and his $10 million on the bench. Out of the core kirk is the odd man out. Gordon has been and will always be able to score and Deng just has too much potential.
Super Bowl XLI MVP Rex Grossman
Chicago Bulls Captain and Starting Point Guard Kirk Hinrich...
Same Person
by 234L on
May 12, 2008 1:24 PM CDT
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Ben Wallace is DONE
He and Chandler would be terrible together. I’m not even going to waste anymore time debating this.
As for Kirk, going into last season, how many point guards would you rather have than him? Probably about 10 or so? Kirk is a good point guard on a team where he doesn’t have to be “the guy.” Unfortunately, we don’t have anybody to create any offense on their own, so Kirk has to try and do too much, and it makes him look bad. The team and players around you have alot to do with how good you’re percieved. If you have good players around you, and you’re in a sysytem that utilizes you correctly you can look good, but that’s not the case with Kirk in Chicago right now. There are probably alot of teams who would like to have him as their point guard though.
Denver, Miami, New York, Sacramento, Clippers, Cleveland, Indiana, Portland, Minnesota, Washington, & Seattle would all definitely like to have him.
Teams where I would take him, but I could see an argument would be Milwaukee (Mo WIlliams), Atlanta (Bibby), Houston, (Rafer Alston), Orlando (Jameer Nelson), Charlotte (Ray Felton).
I think Rondo may eventually be better, but he’s just in a better situation right now. Mike Conley will be better but isn’t there yet. Devin Harris might be a little better but he’s also been in a better situation. And Derek Fisher and Farmar are in a great situation too where they don’t have to do too much. I’d take Kirk over Fisher but think Farmar will be better in a year or 2 . People are all over Ford and Calderon’s nuts, and while they both might be better than Kirk, alot of that is based on perception from just last year and them being a on a team that suits them better.
The only point guards that are an unquestionabe upgrade over Kirk are Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Nash, Baron Davis, Tony Parker, Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups, and Andre Miller.
I think last year was a terrible year for the Bulls, but to say that Kirk is now that much worse individually than he was a year ago is ridiculous. Hopefully this season with a new coach and hopefully a new player or 2, he’ll be able to be used more effectively and have every remembering that we do actually have a solid point guard. He’s just been having to do too much.
by rb22 on
May 12, 2008 2:41 PM CDT
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They ran a Pick and Pop with Joe Smith
Which means joe smith rarely scored on the inside. Good thing to cuz his legs probably couldnt take that sort of punishment. So Joe Smith wasnt our low post presence. Joakim Noah is probably as efficient as Chandler on offense, Chandler has had more time to develop his body, its only a matter of time when joakim is just as strong as him, plus joakim has a stronger idea to win. I think Joakim with his strong desire to win will be greater then Chandler in the long run, so the question is why didnt joakim and wallace work? Wallace actually tried in a Cavaliers game??? Well he tried for the bulls when he played the pistons, he tried once every two months or so…so having wallace have ONE good game with the cavs doesnt make me wanna miss him at all.
Hinrich’s 10 million is not overpayment for a starter theres plenty of guys that get paid more money then that, and plenty of guys who make similar cash. If you are suggesting that 10 million was supposed to go to Chandler so that he can never develop then i am deeply disturbed.
But if we are playing the blame game, i blame this all on ben gordon, why couldnt he be 4 inches taller and know how to create his own shot. How dare he miss all those last second shots that might have won games. How dare he not know how to play defense, and he wants more money then hinrich…bleh!
im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.
by piccolomair on
May 12, 2008 4:06 PM CDT
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