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It's all Noc's fault

[ed. note - I was thinking of writing something similar this week, so I both damn and praise Sports2 for this work. Of course, it's not "Noc's fault", but Paxson's for overpaying for intangibles.

Beyond the inherent problem with a tax-conscious team paying for a bench guy, there's the on-court issue that with Nocioni, any coach will be tempted to play small. -Matt]

I'm sure this will go over well here, but when I was thinking about the Bulls today, it occurred to me that our major problems seemed to start with resigning Nocioni and our solutions probably start with getting rid of him.

If they'd simply let Noc go to Memphis, or better yet, managed to get a future pick, they would have:

  1. Made finances less of an issue when it comes to re-signing Ben and Lou, and thus, even if they hadn't signed extensions, there wouldn't be quite the same context there is now (arguing about a rapidly diminishing fund pool when Noc is sitting there with more than he deserves).

    Our current players aren't morons. I think they saw the bad decisions of the past couple years themselves, saw the implications for themselves, and became distracted. At this point, you've got a situation that's feeding on itself. Everyone looks around and wonders if they're going to be here or even what their role is. That's understandable, but at the same time it has to be distracting, even for players that are pros who work hard.

    And resigning Nocioni was a big part of that.  We paid him way too much and that's figured into everyone else's expectations of what they're worth(if "Noc is worth that much, I must be worth even more") and what's available to go around (everyone knows there's less).

  2. Moving him would have forced us to sink or swim with Thabo and Tyrus. The prevailing sentiment, I think, is that they would have gotten their feet under them quite a bit earlier, and we might have pulled out of our early season funk.  Obviously no sure thing, but still...
  3. It would have left enough luxury tax maneuvering room to consider something like the Gasol trade. In short, more flexibility.
In short, if we'd simply let Noc walk, or (better yet) managed something like wrangling a conditional pick or young player on a cheap contract (like Kyle Lowry) from Memphis when they wanted Noc, we'd likely be in a better position with respect to this past disaster of a season.

Likewise, I think our solutions for the future begin with getting Nocioni off the books....

Star-divide

Consider our overpaid guys.  Nocioni, Hinrich and Hughes all, to some extent, are pretty obviously overpaid.  While I "like" him better than Hughes out of these guys, Nocioni is clearly the most expendable.  If he goes then you've cleared up the problem of Thabo and Tyrus' playing time to a large degree.  We'd be left with

1- Hinrich, Gordon
2- Hughes, Gordon, Thabo
3- Deng, Thabo
4- Gooden, Tyrus
5- Noah Gooden

Which is a somewhat workable looking rotation.  What's more important is that Noc and Kirk's contracts are a lot longer than Hughes'.  We're in a position to simply wait Hughes out.  Even if we re-sign Gordon and Deng, we'll be under the cap by a pretty significant amount in 2010 if we can move Kirk or Noc. Thus, why expend an asset (like a draft pick) to move Hughes off the books?  If we're going to use a draft pick to move someone, it ought to be Nocioni or Hinrich.

Now, would it be better to move Nocioni or Hinrich?  Well, look again at the rotation.  While Kirk has been downright awful this year, the truth of the matter is he's still the best PG material we've got.  In fact, he's the only PG material we've got.  Move him and we're looking at Gordon, Thabo, Hughes, and a rookie?  That's not good.  Plus you've still got the frontcourt logjam issue.

So bottom line is Nocioni should be the top priority to be traded.  He's a higher priority than Hughes because his contract is longer and thus screws up the potential for cap space, and he's a higher priority than Hinrich because he's simply much more replaceable.

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I haven't read this yet
but I was thinking of writing something similar this week.

Beyond the inherent problem with a tax-conscious team paying for a bench guy, there's the issue that with Nocioni, any coach will be tempted to play small.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 9, 2008 11:24 AM CDT   0 recs

Haven't you been saying this...
...since the day the deal was announced?

Nocioni's a 7th-man on a good team, an 8th on a great team. There's no way Gordon and Deng are only worth 25% more than him, especially on this team, and considering their ages and abilities. Paxson set their market when he offered Nocioni's contract.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Apr 9, 2008 11:53 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

as much as I hate when people 'brag'
over 'predictions' on this site....

Yes, I've been consistently hating this contract from the outset..

Pax could've assumed that he'd still get Joe Smith (or someone like him) for a 2-year deal after letting Noc go.

As Sports2 said, Thabo gets Noc's minutes at the 3, Tyrus gets them at the 4, with Smith filling in (and then some after Skiles panicked 7 games into the season)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 9, 2008 12:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Shouldn't be all "Paxson's" fault?
After all, he is the one agreeing to all of these contracts.

I kind of think we are lucky that it is Noc who has this contract.  He might actually be tradable right now and there are a few teams that need someone of his position.  And Noc would be lucky to be traded off this sinking ship.  Same with Hinrich, who I don't think is terribly over paid and more tradable than others on our roster.  It isn't like we are giving Duhon that kind of money and besides, doesn't Hinrich's contract decrease as it goes anyway?  It might seem more attractive to people if we try to include Hinrich in a trade.  

To me Hughes is the thorn in our side as far as trading goes.  We can always wait him out, but at the same time I am afraid the future coach will give him lots of minutes or that he will demand lots of minutes and be cranky if he doesn't get it.  And if we wait him out we got that log jam that I am afraid will result in Gordon gone.  Which would mean we'd need to get someone else who can give us 20 pts a night...I actually trust Gordon more than Hughes for that.

by cranscape on Apr 9, 2008 11:46 AM CDT   0 recs

I've emailed Sam Smith a handful of times
re: moving Nocioni, and Sam never thought he had any value. I doubt there's a lot of interest in a teeny tweener who's better at making faces and pumping his fists than basketball. Or maybe it's just his contract.

Nocioni is even more superfluous than Hughes with Gooden, Thomas, and Sefolosha all being cheaper, just as good or better forwards.

Stephen Curry is the lowpost answer!

by hscs on Apr 9, 2008 11:56 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Maybe you're right...
...I am just hoping someone is in the market for him since there were a few in the past that seemed to think he had something.  Of course a lot of that was after his good showing during playoffs past.  It will probably all come down to who is on the move this summer and who has too much of this and not a lot of that.  If we find a team with a lot of guards or whatnot who needs a small forward then we might get lucky.  

by cranscape on Apr 9, 2008 12:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

keeping in mind
I expect us to unload Hinrich and Duhon during the off season as well.  

by cranscape on Apr 9, 2008 12:19 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Duhon's a FA
so they'll just let him walk.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 9, 2008 12:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

unload, walk, jettison...
for Duhon I'd take catapult.

by cranscape on Apr 9, 2008 12:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Attn Duhon:
Free beer in the top of the catapult. Women and music, too.
"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Apr 9, 2008 1:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i agree
Paxson takes the fall for this.  As much as I can't stand him, I can't blame Noce for getting his money, that's what he's supposed to do.  Paxson is the one signing off on all of these ridiculous numbers.

He painted his own self into a corner by signing Noce to such a dumb deal (dumb for the Bulls).  If nothing else, I would think that at least ONE out of the two of Deng and Gordon would have been resigned this past summer.

Does anybody remember exactly when Jim Paxson came aboard?  He was known for mis-managing things in Cleveland.  Can we blame him too?  John Paxson started off strong, but the last couple of years he has been making some critical errors.

by NormVanBeer on Apr 9, 2008 12:03 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And I think Noc
has tried to live up to the money.  He can't of course, but I don't see him as one of the players who gave up on the team this year.  If anything, he became worse when he tried to do too much.  He stopped being as efficient at his shot selection and ability to drive to the basket and didn't trust his  teammates enough to pass.  He definitely went through a black hole, chucker period.  

by cranscape on Apr 9, 2008 12:17 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Indeed it is on Paxson
but that didn't make for as fun a title :)

As for Noc, I think he's slightly more tradable than Wallace was or than Hughes would be, but the amount of value you get coming back is still not very good.

For example, I think we'd have to include the pick in order to move Hughes for a shorter contract.  I think there are a fair number of teams that might take Noc without requiring the pick and still give us a return I'd find acceptable.

Of course, that's because I'm willing to not take very much in return.  I'd be pretty willing, in fact, to take most any player that had only two years left on his deal and wasn't a complete ass clown.  The "return" on the trade would be the cap room in a summer with a lot of kick ass free agents.

For example, I think any of the following might meet that requirement:

  • To Miami for Mark Blount or Udonis Haslem (giving us an upgrade over Aaron Gray as the 4th big)
  • To Minnesota for Antoine Walker (NG after this year)
  • To Seattle for Earl Watson (a real PG, although not an especially good one).
  • To Indiana for Marquis Daniels or Jeff Foster and Filler (I'm sure the Pacers would do this with Daniels, since he's not got a very good image here in town and isn't a very good player, although this is the only one I'm not sure I'd do.  Daniels just adds to the 2/3 logjam and puts Thabo further down the bench).
  • To New York for Malik Rose, who's an expiring contract.  God knows the Knicks could use someone like Noc, and Rose, while not good, is a pro's pro and and a beefy guy who could fill in the depth chart up front.

by Sports2 on Apr 9, 2008 12:25 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd feel bad
sending Noc to the Knicks.  Noc at least tries after all and doesn't deserve that fate. I'd send Hughes to the Knicks in a heartbeat though.  :)

by cranscape on Apr 9, 2008 12:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Hughes would love New York
An overpaid athlete with alot of promise and ability, however plays for his own selfish reasons and likes to  hoist his own bad shots up before helping the team....yea thats a knicks player if i ever heard one.
Kirk Hinrich. The FORMER Best White American Point Guard in the NBA, Will Soon be Traded :(

by piccolomair on Apr 9, 2008 12:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

yea
i agree. noch should go somewhere he can have a good career, and new york is not it. by the way, u guys hear of skiles being offered to replace issah. a skiles reunion with curry and jamal i hope scott doesnt take that job.
Ralph Wiggum, a smarter man than Jim Boylan

by Yibs on Apr 9, 2008 4:23 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

LOL!
That rumor is awesome!
"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Apr 10, 2008 11:43 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

you said
not a complete assclown.. yet you included walker.

i never want to see the day that walker is in a bulls uniform.  EW.

"Joakim Noah looks like a young Kimberly Williams." - my mom

by Jaina on Apr 9, 2008 12:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

why?
Why such bad contracts were given to kirk and noc i dunno.  Kirk should be traded before if not along with noc.  Both of them have eaten up minutes that should have been used developing more talented young players  I think Pax has a preference for gritty white players even if they um... arent so good at basketball.  Should draft the best guard around and trade kirk.  Maybe Hughes and Noc might make an attractive package.... We cannot trade Gordon, he is the only player on our roster that other teams fear because he has a rare ability to score. I think we have too much of a log jam on this roster to really figure out what our greatest need is.  I think it is point tho

by Zac23 on Apr 9, 2008 12:09 PM CDT   0 recs

What player
did Kirk eat up minutes for? Other than Duhon there is no one that was even remotely ready to try the point guard spot.

by sue369 on Apr 9, 2008 12:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree.
Kirk isn't eating anyone's minutes up, unless you think Thabo/Gordon were a stunning combo.  The only reason I have to unload Kirk is because he is one of the few with value on a team that needs to do some serious retooling.  His contract is big enough that packaged with a few others we might get one good guy out of the deal.  But then you also have to realize what a team without at least a half efficient point guard will look like.  If we got rid of him we'd need to get someone else because I really don't see Thabo, Hughes, or Gordon suddenly getting better at point.  In fact I think at least with Gordon he might lose his shooting upside if he is expected to pass first all the time.

by cranscape on Apr 9, 2008 12:29 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Seeing as Kirk
is my favorite player I hope they find a way to keep him. If they don't I will follow him with his new team.

by sue369 on Apr 9, 2008 12:58 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

There are a number of
players I'd watch on other teams if they got traded, Kirk among them.  In fact I'd go as far as to say that if they don't clean house well this summer the guys who do get out of dodge will be the happier ones.  It isn't as though the guys we get rid of are being thrown out an airlock or something. They could end up in better situations.  

by cranscape on Apr 9, 2008 1:03 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Nor are there any potential draftees
who I look at and think "ok, let's trade Kirk and build with this guy".

by Sports2 on Apr 9, 2008 12:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Be careful what you say
The Derrick Rose lovers will be out to get you.

by snley on Apr 9, 2008 12:58 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Let's say the Bulls wind up
with the 8th pick.  Do you see a way we can package a player with the pick and move up to 4 or 5?  Would Kirk suffice?  Gordon?  

I'm pretty sure we don't have anyone on the roster that would get us far enough up to pick Beasley or Rose, but could we get up far enough to go after Brooks Lopez (a big that already knows how to score) at 4 or 5?    

by alec on Apr 9, 2008 1:25 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Gordon and Deng can't be traded
Until they agree to new contracts (hence, not until well after the draft).

I could actually see some team likely in that range (New York, Minnesota, LA Clippers) considering Kirk + the pick because they all seem to need PGs.  But also remember they'd have to send us back a contract, and I'd imagine they'd want to send back a crummy one.

Like, the Knicks might take Kirk + #8 for # 4 or 5, but what's that gonna get us?  

I honestly don't think Lopez is a very good idea with both Tyrus and Noah in the fold, and if we give up Kirk to get him we become even less balanced in the backcourt.

And I don't see Mayo or Bayless as guys that it's worth doing that for.  I have no real sense of what the Italian kid brings to the table.

by Sports2 on Apr 9, 2008 1:48 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

although...
i am a noc fan, i think there is truth to the theory that his contract implications contributed to some of the consternation this year.  essentially, noc is making starter money as the 2nd option off the bench.  something's gotta give...

by leeac on Apr 9, 2008 12:38 PM CDT   0 recs

Hindsight is 20/20
While I agree that as the team now blows Nocioni is a problem due to his contract and his spot in the depth chart, a few years ago

Nocioni was one of my favorite players. He consistently would play hard, seemed to not take as many bonehead shots, and if memory serves 3 years ago against Miami he was dominating in the playoffs. After years of the depressing Floyd-Cartwright eras it was nice to see the team succeed and to lose one of the 4 players that got us back to the playoffs would have been upsetting.

But we are where we are. Paxson has a lot to unload. What we can get back is the better question. Everyone wants to trade Kirk but we're not going to get a better point guard back in that trade, so we go with a rookie pg in the draft? Lots of issues to work out.

by bullsfaninla on Apr 9, 2008 1:24 PM CDT   0 recs

No one is discounting what Chapu brings
His praises are sung whenever the Bulls are successful, and he is the prototypical blue-collar player that almost every winning team has(Paul Milsap, Carl Landry, Leon Powe etc etc).  However, do you think any of those guys deserve a 35 million dollar extension?  Noc is extremely valuable to this team....but only at the right price for a bench player.  Paxson KNEW he had to re-sign Deng, or if he was intent on trading him he was going to pay a hefty salary with Gasol or Kobe or whatever.  He overpaid for him, and it set the wheels in motion for everything that could have possibly gone wrong.
Dickey Simpkins>Ben Wallace

by Ozzie Montana on Apr 9, 2008 1:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The result of mis-evaluating his roster
Paxson gave Noce a contract most thought was foolish because he viewed him as a key component of a conference, if not Finals, contender.  You tend to overpay for winners.  That's probably the same reason he paid Hinrich the money he did.  Hinrich has never been a PG. I don't care how many fans who didn't see him play the 2 at Kansas while Aaron Miles ran the point, don't realize this.  Hinrich's best strength is not running a team, it's not his jumper, it's not making his teammates better, it's not even defending quick PGs, rather it is guarding the opposition's 2 guard.  That's pretty p-poor.  Hinrich and Noce are two examples of guys who were the beneficiary of Paxson's individual and team evaluation.  You know, the same evaluation that led Paxson to draft an undersized, turnover prone, poor decision making 2 guard with the #3 pick knowing he already had an undersized combo guard masquerading as a 1.  I screamed that night after realizing the Bulls could have taken both Deng and Iggy with the #3 and 7.  

by messwiththebull on Apr 9, 2008 1:47 PM CDT   0 recs

messwiththebull
I feel your pain..  great evalution!

by exult463 on Apr 9, 2008 5:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

you know you're on to something
when you get exultations from exult himself.
Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 9, 2008 9:05 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Going forward we need to be vigilant about
overpaying.  I am concerned Paxson will overpay for Deng.  It sounds like he is going to hold the line on Gordon.  Can we package Hinrich and Noc for Marion and a swap of picks?  I believe salaries work.  I'm at work and cannot use the ESPN trade machine.

by chgobr on Apr 9, 2008 2:16 PM CDT   0 recs

Trade Machine is pretty much out of commission
It won't let you make a trade using any player with an option, either the player's or the team's, to end the contract after the season.  

by snley on Apr 9, 2008 2:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

why would miami want longer term contracts
and a worse draft pick?  Hinrich and Noc for Marion don't make Miami a contender.
Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 9, 2008 2:28 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It'll be
real fun watching Miami draft Rose, then have two Chicago boys lead them back up.  This sucks.

by jpchi on Apr 9, 2008 2:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Marion is a problem
He is going to be overpaid at $17 million next year.  It is going to be very difficult to sign him at a reasonable price.  Marion is a real financial conundrum

by chgobr on Apr 9, 2008 4:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

But still the question is Why?
$17mil in cap space (not to mention a higher draft pick-they have the best odds at the number 1 overall) is worth more than Kirk and Noce (and their bad contracts to the Heat.  Miami will always be an attractive destination for FAs, especially if the Heat are building around Wade and say, Rose.  There is absolutely no way Miami even thinks about that trade for one second.

---

Great diary, BTW.  Glad the playoff chase is officially over, even if the Bulls won't give me my money back for the first two playoff rounds (it's a credit towards next season, but I'm not happy about it).  Pax has one year to fix this if he wants me to re-up again next offseason.  

by Moses Taylor on Apr 9, 2008 5:48 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think the only trade with Noce
will be something along the lines of what was suggessted in Sam Smith's recent Q&A, a trade involving Nocioni and Gooden to LA for Odom.  I can't see any non-contenders wanting Noce and I can't think of too many other contenders who would have anything the Bulls could work with.  

by messwiththebull on Apr 9, 2008 2:51 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Blazer's might have interest
Noc can hit the outside shot.  I believe Portland wants an upgrade at both the point and SF.  

by exult463 on Apr 9, 2008 5:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm still for taking the best shooter/scorer...
...and coming up with a super-creative way of signing LeBron James in the future: like signing a deal with Nike that says they'll pay the team's "best player" $100 zillion a year. Or something like that. Then he'll sign for whatever is under the cap.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Apr 9, 2008 2:21 PM CDT   0 recs

Orrr....
They could use Deng to get something, anything, this Summer, overpay for Gordon (the shooter/scorer), draft the best ball-handler, then use the Nocioni, Hinrich and Hughes contracts to bring James in. Maybe they could use a future pick or two to get someone to take Hughes and give back a "serviceable" SF.

That's probably the biggest risk/reward strategy right there, while still keeping afloat. They aren't too good the next two years, but they probably aren't horrible either if they get a good coach. They then have the contracts, and maybe the assets to make the move for James while still having a good supporting cast.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Apr 9, 2008 2:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Noc and Hughes
for Shaq after the Suns flame out in the first round?
Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 9, 2008 2:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

For much of the year
Noc was outperforming BG as the best sixth man, based on PER.  I think hindsight is getting way too much credit here.  A year ago, Noc was a solid rotation guy and a very tradeable asset.  Signing him to a contract that was front loaded also makes him a big salary that can be used to facilitate deals, something the bulls didn't have when they failed to use PJ Brown and important when Hinrich looked like a key piece of the puzzle.  He may look worse now, but everybody looks worse now, so I find it a little hard to single him out.  He was part of the rumored Gasol deal, so he's being utilized for what he is, a trade chip.

And lest we all forget, TT started the year ahead of him on the depth chart, and recently has been getting more burn than Noc is, so the fact that Noc was used as a crutch shouldn't be used against him.

Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 9, 2008 2:25 PM CDT   0 recs

for much of the year
Noc was outperforming EVERYBODY.  Why just cherry pick BG?  Thru the first 2-3 months of the season any article you read it was calling Noce and Joe Smith the most consistent players on the team.  It wasn't until after the all-star break is when he started to level-off and return back to normal.

Front-loaded or not, a 5 year deal??  Come on.  You really want to pay a 29-yr old reserve who's most important assets are "energy" and "passion" for that long?  If Paxson was really looking at him as a trade-chip, as you say, then don't you think he would have at least signed him to less than five?  A 3-yr, $21 million deal looks better to me than a 5 yr, $38 million deal (or whatever it was that he got).

No matter how it's spun, Paxson knee-jerked at Memphis' slight courtship of Noce and it completely blew up in his face.  I say blew up because now Noce looks worse than what the rest of the core guys looked like at the start of the season.  Now he's left holding the pieces trying to figure out exactly how he got in this mess.

Noce started high, went lower, and now completely looks putrid.  Everyone else started putrid and at least returned to mediocrity.

by NormVanBeer on Apr 9, 2008 2:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

They are the offense off of the bench
so that was the natural comparison I made.  And Noc won't be 29 until well into next season.  And mediocre is putting a positive spin on everybody's performance outside of Noah.
Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 9, 2008 2:48 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

there's a chance
that Noc is 'tradeable' because his contract is decline. But as Norm said, 5 years is a hard thing to get over.

Memphis turned down a Nocioni-included package, likely for that reason. Sure, they're especially cheap, but most 'rebuilding' teams don't want guys like Nocioni clogging up their cap.

Hindsight may get credit, but Pax is partially judged on foresight. I can't stand when media says "well I didn't hear anybody criticizing the move then...", as if we're held to the same standard as the freaking GM. Although, that point is moot here since I was against re-signing Nocioni then :-p

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 9, 2008 2:55 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

just think
in 5 games it will only be 4 years and be 20% easier to get over.  :-p
Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 9, 2008 3:10 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

another hit against Noc's 'worth'
I see the idea of signing Noc to a front-loaded contract, if only to deal it after they let PJ Brown's contract expire.

But now, Pax has another chunky piece of expiring money in Gooden. Plus Hinrich (who also signed a frontloaded deal) is now more firmly on the tradeable list.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 9, 2008 3:19 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

This Nocioni rant...
...just got you on a roll, eh? heh
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Apr 9, 2008 3:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

yeah, the passion of Nocioni
makes me passionate about dogging him.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 9, 2008 3:43 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Sure
Memphis put pressure on the Bulls but the Bulls still ended up bidding against themselves.  As far as I know, Memphis visited Noce but never actually made an offer.  I have no way of knowing, but I think Paxson got a little freaked out by Memphis and the deals guys like Kapono were getting and wanted to make Noce an offer he couldn't refuse and move on to the others.

by messwiththebull on Apr 9, 2008 6:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

"shouldn't be held against him"
well, nothing really is against him, it's against Paxson.

As in, Paxson should've seen that Nocioni would potentially be used as a crutch. And judging by the contract he gave Noc, Pax did see it and actually thought of it as a positive.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 9, 2008 3:03 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Irony...
Today, while BaB was discussing how to rid the franchise of Noc, this appeared on the Bulls official site:

<src img=http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/nocioni1_080409.jpg>

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Apr 9, 2008 2:32 PM CDT   0 recs

Well, that didn't work.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Apr 9, 2008 2:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I was attempting to do this...

I reversed the HTML command. I am an internet failure.

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Apr 9, 2008 2:44 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

wow
If I was a better blogger, I'd make a post saying "THAT'S why I can't stand the Nocioni/Bulls relationship"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 9, 2008 2:56 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

At least the have a Hungry Heart
and not a Broken Heart... FOR FIVE YEARS!!!!!!
"2nd half Ben Gordon bonanza. It's coming :)" - Matt, Blog-A-Bull

by Goostafer on Apr 9, 2008 3:08 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The Hornets are the best
trade partner for the Bulls I think.  Nocioni is a good role player in the wrong system right now.  He needs to be playing with some real bigs to be effective at the 4 spot.  

NO has a young, thin bench which I think will lead to a 2nd round exit in the playoffs this year.  Therefore in the offseason they will want to add some depth to the bench.  While Chandler and West are good starters, they don't really have any quality backup big men.  Julian Wright needs to bulk up to play the 4 spot.  Chris Anderson? Hilton Armstrong? Pass.

Enter a package starring Nocioni.  He is playoff tested and will do the dirty work.  Plus on the offensive end, he'll be another shooter for CP3 to pass too.  

Contract wise, they don't have any expiring contracts.  However, Mike James ($6 mil x 2 years), Mo Pete ($6 x 3 years), and Rasul Butler ($3.9 x 2 years) all have shorter contracts than Nocioni.  None of those players play much either, so NO would be able to keep their core players together for at least 2 more years.  The Bulls would get some crappy contracts and players in return, but they come off the books sooner.    

The only downside I could see is that CP3 is due for an extension before the 2010/11 season.  However, that season Peja's playoff disappearing body turns into a $15 million expiring contract.  

by shoryuken on Apr 9, 2008 3:04 PM CDT   0 recs

not a bad idea
To me, the type of team that would want Noc is one like you described: weak bench on a team that's heading upward. (i.e. not rebuilding)

New Orleans is tax-conscious and have to re-sign Chris Paul, so they may be open to a long-term contract in Noc (especially if it decreases) if it means they save more yearly.

For instance, in 2009/2010, and Chris Paul's in the first year of his max deal...Noc is making $7.5m, and James+Butler's making $10.4m.

although, uh, the Bulls are trying to avoid the Tax as well. I'm assuming that you could flip a James/Butler contract easier in a later deal, however.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 9, 2008 3:16 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

yeah sorry
I forgot to mention that James/Butler/Peterson contracts would need to be traded.  This would be like Step 1 of a 2-3 Step plan to rid ourselves of Nocioni's contract.  I think the Bulls would have a much easier time doing a multiple step plan rather than trying to find a single trade to solve their salary problems.

by shoryuken on Apr 9, 2008 3:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

By the way, I really believe the woes of the Bulls
can be attributed to their failure to develop the young players on the roster.

Some of that can be blamed on the players themselves, but most of the culpability falls on the franchise.

They traded Eddy Curry for two lottery picks. They used those lottery picks on Tyrus and Noah, Once the two kids were drafted, they let them languish. Meanwhile, Deng, Gordon, and Hinrich all regressed this season, which is also a reflection of the way the franchise treats its players.

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Apr 9, 2008 3:35 PM CDT   0 recs