Proof that Deng disappears against Good teams? 82Games
http://www.82games.com/COM4S0.HTM
(I don't know if anyone already mentioned all this. If so, ignore the post)
Now I know that stats don't completely tell how good a player is, but Deng's are ridiculous. 82games broke dont player stats according to opponent level: Good, Average and Poor (They don't say how they assigned teams to groups, but I think it's based on record). According to the stats Deng scores at 15.1 ppg on 42% shooting against Good teams, while he scores 20.9 pts on 55% shooting against Poor teams. While a drop off against good teams is expected, his decline in pts (5.8) and shooting % (13) are the worst in the league (I think) among important players. While some of that may be due to the team's struggle as a whole, players like Rudy Gay were still able to take care of business against good teams, regardless of team crapiness.
Hinrich, Gordon, and Nocioni were consistent(ly poor) regardless of competition.
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66 comments
Comments
ew.
Good find. That’s certainly discouraging.
Strangely enough against both good and poor teams, he had similar rates of getting to the line and on assisted baskets. Just made fewer of each.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 21, 2008 4:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hopefully Pax
Has a bunch of guys who look for these trends 24/7 before he makes his decisions. You would think that would be a given, but with this organization, you just never know…
by Illini15 on Apr 21, 2008 4:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
eh
I’d like to know how he did in such situations last season too.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 21, 2008 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
RealGM says the Bulls use their trade checker software
If they’re using that then these other stats have to show up in their peripheral view.
by NBA Observer on Apr 22, 2008 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hasn't Paxson often been quoted as saying the organization has little use for statistics?
Hopefully, that’s something that could change with a new coach.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Apr 22, 2008 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't remember anything of the sort
In fact I think they were frontrunners in terms of buying the rights to scouting and stats services. That may have pre-dated Paxson though.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 22, 2008 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I seem to remember seeing a reference to it in a Hollinger chat from last season.
I can’t find any other reference to it now. I hope I’m mistaken.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Apr 22, 2008 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the lack of coverage sucks
Portland has something, as do the Rockets, Sonics, Cavs, and Cuban bought some stat swampland. It’d be nice to know what the Bulls have, if anything.
by hscs on Apr 22, 2008 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
good luck
figuring out the context/details/whatever, cuz there’s a lot of questions. Like, how many games did Deng play against the top 3rd of the NBA, and how many of those games was he reasonably healthy in? We could be talking about 10-15 legitimate disappearances, or 2. Or none. This type of study really demands more than one season of data.
by hscs on Apr 21, 2008 5:55 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
20+ games is a big enough sample. If you want to go and look at the schedule to see when he the various teams, that might help. But Deng had just as bad of a season as anybody else. It doesn’t really matter that he brought his averages up because it didn’t help the team win or get to the playoffs. The only argument to be made really is whether or not he played overly heavy minutes against better teams and it looks like he did. But even then, in increased minutes you’d think he would increase his output marginally.
2008 or bust.
by bullshooter on Apr 21, 2008 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not making excuses for the guy
I’m just not convinced by one wonky season of data. I’m not ambitious enough to check the K.C. Johnson archives for injury reports, and compare them to box scores. It could all be boiled down to too much Noc/Hughes and their USG% against better teams too. There’s way too many factors to consider.
by hscs on Apr 21, 2008 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
gee I don't know, bs
how can you make that statement after so few games? :-p
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 21, 2008 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get a warm fuzzy when you hit the archives
:-) but seriously, are you really playing the “Deng was injured” card? So was everybody else on the team. You don’t think Kirk’s bad back lingered a little too? Or Ben’s wrist?
The Thabo thing still gets me. He’s your poster child for “increased output with increased minutes” argument and yet you dog him.
2008 or bust.
by bullshooter on Apr 21, 2008 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's his new Nocioni
That statement calls for an emoticon, but I’m not man enough to use one.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on Apr 21, 2008 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
bah
lets clear this up: some of the motivation to express doubts about Thabo is a backlash from ‘the untouchables’. But I do like having him on the team. Noc I definitely want gone.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 21, 2008 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well I dug all the way back a couple hours.
First of all, I do genuinely think that Deng was more injured than the other two. And he didn’t have as bad of a season as the other two, regardless. They were all disappointments relative to expectations but in terms of who had the best bad season, his was less bad than the others.
I’m not dogging Thabo, I just don’t think he’s untouchable. The increased minutes argument is works better if they’re efficient when getting limited minutes. Thabo hasn’t even done that.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 21, 2008 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It works even better
when they actually produce more with more minutes. :-)
2008 or bust.
by bullshooter on Apr 21, 2008 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
uh, that's the point
everyone produces more with more minutes. But since you’re having trouble understanding why Thabo doesn’t fit my ‘argument’, it’s that in order for me to lather up and clamor for more minutes, they have to show something in the minutes they get. It also helps if they’re taking away minutes from those who aren’t as good, as opposed to taking them away from the best player on the team.
For instance, I was definitely alright with Thabo taking all of Hughes’ minutes. Though that didn’t fit into your argument of ‘showcasing’.
Hope that helped clear things up.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 21, 2008 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I get it
and it fit perfectly with my argument of showcasing, which was an explanation, not an argument in favor of his playing time. I guess I should also have been clearer on that.
2008 or bust.
by bullshooter on Apr 21, 2008 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually
I did believe you thought it was worth it to showcase. Accepting it as an explanation gave me the impression that it was with with the tone of approval.
But I guess we can’t all want Boylan to get hit by a bus after every game.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 21, 2008 11:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually,
yes we can. Though him getting fired works too.
by Prevenge on Apr 21, 2008 11:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's almost sad
unless, of course, Pax hires Larry Brown or something.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 21, 2008 11:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Figures Don't Lie but Liars Figure
Thanks for the data, shoryuken. I’m aware statistics provide only a snapshot and are a useful analytical tool since perceptions don’t always match reality, as we all let our personal biases factor in to what our eyes are telling us.
These stats reflect the final 18 games, a period I chose because TT started his horrific shooting slump at that time, yet he didn’t seem to be hurting the team any worse than all the others while on the court. The Bulls were still “fighting” for a playoff berth and buffoon Boylan was determined to play his veterans instead of giving developmental minutes to his younger players. If not for injuries, this trend would likely have continued until the final whistle of his final game, but as they faded (6 and 12) along with any hope of the playoffs in sight, even his thick skull told him it was time to abandon all hope and play those rebellious rascals who cost him his job.
Here for what they are worth, or not, are the plus/minus numbers for that stretch. It shows playing the veterans didn’t help and playing the less experienced guys didn’t hurt. Giving Duhon all that time at the end either means the Bulls plan to keep him or are showcasing him to whoever needs a relatively solid backup point guard who can deliver spectacularly every 20th game.
For those who think this is a worthless stat please skip them so you can rationalize your positions more effectively. If what happens when a player is on the court is meaningless, than why get upset about substitutions, rotations and adjustments? I think that over a period of time they do tell a story. Obviously only a chapter, but meaningful nevertheless. And might I add, they make a stronger case to play more TT and Noah, which feeds into my personal biases.
Final 18 games - Season (/ – )
Player Minutes (/ – )
Gray 185:50 +32 -25
Duhon 186:43 +20
Thomas 355:42 +10
Brown 6:03 -2
Nichols 19:12 -12
Simmons 9:33 -18
Nocioni 305:07 -32
Gooden 309:31 -34
Thabo 414:03 -38
Kirk 485:42 -45
Deng 590:64 -45
Noah 501:01 -48
Hughes 495.52 -57
Gordon 469:02 -66
by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 21, 2008 8:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
raw plus-minus is worthless, especially 18 games of it
There’s stronger statistical evidence regarding the follies of Skiles/Boylan rotations. Roland Rating for starters. Haven’t you posted this nonsense before?
by hscs on Apr 21, 2008 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This was supposed to be part of an overall statistical presentation
but I haven’t figured out how to format yet and posted them by accident before I finished. While you say the last 18 games plus-minuses are worthless, I never claimed they should be used as the gold standard. You apparently disagreed with my point that they demonstrated the new assets and veteran players failed to come through when it mattered the most and the Bulls wound up in the lottery. Lets just agree to disagree. One man’s nonsense could be another man’s road to discovery.
So how do you feel about these?
The next stat tool takes into account the entire season and shows how the team performed when each individual player was on the court. This is a very valuable piece of data in my estimation, although it obviously does not account for player combinations. Used by intelligent coaches, it may provide them in coming up with more effective groupings next year, like Thabo, TT and Noah running the floor against teams without monster front lines. The individual Net result per game is derived as follows: Assume while Kirk is on the court the Bulls are plus 2, but when he is riding the bench the team goes -7. His net contribution in that game would be plus 9, indicating while he was out, at least for that game, it hurt them. So who do these stats say had the best value per game over the season? See below. Yes I know, IT’S just another TOOL, NOT A PAPAL ENCYCLICAL.
Entire Season Stats
Player Net Value per gm & (+/– )
Noah +3.4 -25
Thomas +2.8 -34
Gray +1.5 -25
Duhon +1.5 -66
Nocioni +0.5 -119
Kirk +0.3 -146
Thabo -0.4 -100
Deng -1.0 -157
Hughes -1.4 -70
Gooden -3.5 -71
Gordon -4.3 -232
Gardner -6.7 -9
Nichols -14.3 -11
Simmons -24.5 -11
Brown -34.6 -17
What these numbers seem to show is that the 2 most effective Bulls players last year while on the floor were Noah and Tyrus. This doesn’t come as any surprise to most BlogaBullers, but as I previously noted, Boylan was “not a stats guy”, but he was an A #1 incompetent idiot who could not think on his feet, or on his ass for that matter.
It also indicates that Gooden sucked it up while playing with the great LBJ and that maybe Hughes is not as bad as our own Ben Gordon who was by far the biggest negative performer of any regular last year, again no surprise to those of us who had trouble stomaching his defensive shortcomings. Is it also possible that some of our bloggers biggest whipping boys were not the primary culprits in the Bulls demise, like Kirk and Noce? Thabo should improve and I expect almost quantam leaps with TT and Noah under the proper guidance and motivation by our hopefully excellent, knowledgeable new staff. Aaron is always portrayed as a hopeless stiff. To me, he can be an adequate back up and an overall positive considering he was a 54th pick. This team could be a winner if we could only somewhow get Chris Paul or Derrin Williams for Hughes and Nichols.
by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 21, 2008 10:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think we could get "Derrin" for that
Imaginary players are all we have left to cling to.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on Apr 21, 2008 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are aware that Deron has a younger brother Derrin who
averaged 58 points, 27 rebounds, 18 assists and 7 blocks per game for St. Mary of the Lake junior high school this year. He is thinking of coming out early. Although he is only 5’ 9” , an expected growth spurt could put him over the 6 foot mark by training camp. I think he’s worth a shot, especially if all we have to give up is Hughes. Sorry for the confusion.. Think of his potential, especially when you factor in that he won’t be 14 until December.
by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 21, 2008 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Larry would be happy in Junior High
So that actually works out.
Rusty Longley v 2.0
by Ozzie Montana on Apr 22, 2008 1:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're right on Ozzie, He'd be in bball Heaven
Since the court is shorter along with the three point line, , think of all the 3’s he could launch and probably hit half of them since the opposing guards average about 5 ft 3 in that league.
Sounds like this could be a good trade for both teams if the principal, Sister Mary Angelina approves the deal. Larry’s salary will come out of the general playground fund (It is a very wealthy suburb), while the Bulls save a fortune because young Derrin’s allowance is only $5 a week.
by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 22, 2008 3:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if it's more raw plus-minus
it’s equally worthless. Even net/48 plus-minus is pretty questionable, but a lot more useful. You can find primers that explain how to use plus-minus metrics.
by hscs on Apr 21, 2008 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry I didn't read the primer on how to use the metrics
but if I was coaching and the team consistently performed better or worse when certain players are either playing or sitting, I wouldn’t need a primer to tell me what I should do next. How about noticing when BG is on the court, the opposing guard becomes a scoring machine regardless of how many points he puts up. How about noticing that the energy Noah and TT bring usually results in the Bulls getting more OR’s and blocks in the paint. These stats tend to verify what my lying eyes have observed, that the Bulls perform better when certain players play and worse when they sit…I will not name names because all I have to back me up are those lousy statistics which some believe are almost worthless. I am not saying you’re not right intellectually or academically, but all I know for sure is that one man’s junk is another man’s treasure trove.
by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 21, 2008 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you'd be a bad coach, and a bad statistician
by hscs on Apr 22, 2008 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would be a bad coach, etc.
I agree. I would definitely be a bad coach and as they say It takes one to know one. And based on this truism, I feel totally justified in saying Boylan was an unmitigated disaster as a coach, Try to refute that one.
by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 22, 2008 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
These stats just try to show you things
that you might not otherwise observe solely from from the game and then watching game film afterwards. I guess the guys that have been working in the basketball arena for many years probably can see many of these things just from observation, but I doubt it.
It does itch me when every reply to your ideas is just a stats reply. It’s not to say the stats are wrong, but analysis is more than just numbers, especially in a controlled market like the NBA.
by NBA Observer on Apr 22, 2008 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh god
Wonderful. Stats are tools, observation is good. Is everyone satisfied? Is common sense victorious?
by hscs on Apr 22, 2008 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
as topical as the great, lame new schooly stats v. old shooly wisdom debate
by hscs on Apr 22, 2008 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog
But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses.
by RogersPark Kris on Apr 22, 2008 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For what it's worth, I've found myself strongly attracted to you for your comments.
If only I wasn’t married…
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Apr 22, 2008 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That makes two of us
There’s probably more.
by NBA Observer on Apr 22, 2008 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL!
Dude, this is the funniest thing ever… I can’t stop laughing…LOL!
"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"
by bullhockey on Apr 22, 2008 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm happier to stay out of this
efficacy of statistics debate…but what are you trying to say with your Sam Zell vid?
by alec on Apr 22, 2008 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Simple
Condescension works in as many instances as a good “F you”.
by NBA Observer on Apr 22, 2008 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looking at the big picture
I agree that stats don’t tell the whole story about a players impact on a game (especialy like a Shane Battier), but they are excellent at showing trends.
1) The sample size – The whole season isn’t big enough? There’s 21 games against good teams, 23 against average, and 19 against poor. That’s plenty sample.
2) Previous season stats are irrevelant. Last 2 years, the everyone on the Bulls had nice stats cause as a team the Bulls were doing well. Deng had no problem against facing good competition when everyone else was doing well. This year, the crap hit the fan. When things aren’t going well, you expect your big time player who want a big time contract to step up and make the big plays in the big time games.
3) Injuries – Everyone has injuries during the course of the season. I do think Deng suffered the worst injuries of any Bull. However, he was able to still pour it on against cruddy teams without problems. After Deng’s November injury, his first 3 backs games were against Toronto, Atlanta, and Charlotte. After his early December injury, his next 3 games were aainst Atlanta, Orlando, and Miami. His first 3 games back after the big Dec/Jan Injury were NJ, Denver, and Houston. So in the 9 games following extended injuries, he played only 3 games against against “good” teams (Orlando, Denver, and Houston). That’s why I don’t like the injury excuse
4. Minutes/Rotations – Unlike the Bulls guards, Deng was guaranteed at least 30 minutes at either forward position. Teams also don’t regularly double team Deng, so I don’t buy any “extra defensive pressure” arguement.
Remember these stats are the averages over a whole season, so one or two bad games shouldn’t effect the overall result. Deng’s peers (like Danny Granger, Rudy Gay, Corey Maggette) all played on bad teams but were able to maintain their game against good competition. I like Deng a lot, but his alarming drop off against good teams indicates that he is not necessarily a big time player who deserves a big time contract.
by shoryuken on Apr 22, 2008 10:38 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow, the complete and utter misuse of statistics on this site just keeps getting better and better.
I especially love when you write that stats show trends but warn us to disregard previous years’ stats. How can you show a trend when you have no base to work with?
Also, thank you for your keen medical insight that Deng’s injuries would only affect him for the first three games in his returns. It sure will change the way that I watch the New Orleans/Dallas series, as surely Dirk is fully recovered and just faking his own injury is bothering him so that no one will call him a choker if the Mavs lose.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Apr 22, 2008 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
If Dirk is the league's biggest choker
It’s only because Deng needs a bigger stage.
OK, that was a bit hyperbolic, but I found this to be a pretty compelling statistic. I’d, of course, like to see previous year’s data, but there are some things we can do to look at this data just within itself.
So I put it excel and looked at the FG% changes for other players vs. Good, average, and bad competition. It may be that, outside of the Bulls, Deng’s values don’t look like major outliers.
Turns out, many players don’t have consistent changes. For example, Ray Allen shot 38.9% against bad teams, 48.4% amongst average teams, and 44.6% against good teams. So his progression was inconsistent. One would expect players are somewhat worse against average teams than they are against bad teams.
Of course, with small sample sizes, particularly good games and matchups start to matter, which is why you see inconsistent results.
Deng was one of the guys, however, who was consistent. That means he was significantly worse against average competition than bad competition, and worse against good than average. In short, the more difficult the competition, the more he was affected.
The reference I made to Dirk earlier was due to the fact that he was the only other guy who showed such a consistent and big drop off when playing better competition. I suppose it could be an outlier, but to me this suggests a good game plan executed with the right talent can somewhat take these guys off their games.
A second thing I looked at is just how Deng’s shooting against good teams compared to otherwise similar players. It might be that other players drop off similarly. When looking at it, I think shoryken’s initial point holds up. Most everyone suffers some drop off vs. better competition, but Deng’s is quite a bit more severe than others.
I’d be really interested in seeing if someone could dredge up these stats for prior years.
by Sports2 on Apr 22, 2008 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
good teams, or good defenses?
82games could blow everyone away with a won-lost profile for every individual. The study this whole discussion is about seems to be just a taste of the data available to teams who pay for this stuff. Player X v. Good Team just isn’t enough, and it would be great to have the USG% for every player.
by hscs on Apr 22, 2008 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In defense of Dirk
He was one of few whose stats were positive against good,, average and bad teams this year. I know he crashed in last year’s playoffs, but has played exceptionally well coming off his recent injury. Everyone with a functioning brain cell, including me, knows the use of selective statistics can be used to justify any position…that is everyone who has ever taken an Economics course or listened to the BS rants of our political classes. Having said that, I found something interesting which I will share. Please don’t hate me for it.
It is the % of times a player draws a foul per field goal attempt: (this season)
LeBron James 17.2
Kobe Bryant 15.5
Duane Wade 18.1
Alan Iverson 17.1
Kirk Hinrich 5.8 Sorry Kirk…..but the following nos. are somewhat encouraging to me
Jaochim Noah 19.9
Tyrus Thomas 14.7
Aaron Gray 19.7
Other Bulls
Luol Deng 12.0
Noce 11.0
Thabo 8.9
Gordon 8.2
My conclusion from this tiny stat is that if we can get more shots for our bigs, we can get more free throw attempts which could benifit the Bulls in close games…again we need a point guard to distribute the ball to the right people at the right time.
OK , I know this is worthless nonsense to some of you. I am now getting ready for any incoming blasts regarding my unsophisticated, amateurish numerical observations at this very moment.
by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 22, 2008 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Preemptive self-loathing!
Nice!
But I think that’s a worthwhile stat. It, along with the percent of their FG’s assisted stat confirms what our eyes show us… our guys really aren’t that good at getting their own shot.
You should look at what other big guys (especially the good ones) get as far as FTAs per FGA though. My guess is that our big guys aren’t even average compared to them.
by Sports2 on Apr 22, 2008 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
re Deng's less than stellar season
Luol has lots of upside in my opinion. Although he has no post-up game, he runs the floor without the ball better than most and his quick release lets him get his shot off over bigger defenders. What he needs, along with another high potential forward, Tyryus of course, is better coaching and a trrue point guard who could get them the ball at optimum times. Tyson Chandler was basically told not to shoot while on the Bulls and with Chris Paul at the point, all he did this year was achieve a FG % of an amazing .623, obviously most coming on dunks and alley oops fed to his wheelhouse at precisely the right moments…..something the Bulls guards lack big time.
by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 22, 2008 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that a great pg
in the mold of CP3 or Deron Williams would be Deng’s new best friend. However, we could all be dead before we see that. Maybe even a darn good pg would help Deng enough to make it worthwhile to keep him. Deng, more than any other player on the roster needs a help-mate to make his game better.
A long time ago, I stated my preference for DJ Augustin (in between stating my preference for about half a dozen others), but I still would be very happy with him as the Bulls pick.
by alec on Apr 22, 2008 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poor man's Hornets
Following up my West=Deng+and offseason or two of strength training analogy:
Noah seems pretty similar to Chandler.
Gordon fills the Mike James/Bobby Jackson/Pargo scorer role, and to some extent the Peja sharpshooter role.
Thabo is sort of Morris Peterson-like if you squint.
Noc is sort of a crack-addict version of Peja (really, look at the comparison)
2- Thabo ~ MoPete
3- Nocioni ~ Peja
4- Deng ~ West
5- Noah ~ Chandler
Bench – Gordon ~ Pargo/Jackson/James
So you end up with one really big incongruency: Kirk vs. Chris Paul
And a few missing pieces: Tyrus Thomas vs. Julian Wright? Larry Hughes vs. Bonzi Wells?
by Sports2 on Apr 22, 2008 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know where hscs lives,
but I can feel him seething from here.
by alec on Apr 22, 2008 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not seething
I’ll never forget Prince posting Deng to death in the playoffs last year though. He’s fine at small forward.
by hscs on Apr 22, 2008 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking about the player-to-player
comparisons Sports is doing and recalling comments you’ve made about that. I was imagining you seething about the process, not his conclusions. :)
by alec on Apr 22, 2008 7:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
everyone on the Bulls side
is worse than their Hornets counterpart.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 22, 2008 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good comparisons
But you forgot the coach (Scott vs Boylan/Skiles).. double digit advantage to NO. And also Paxson’s influence, or lack thereof?
by exult463 on Apr 23, 2008 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you, Alec
100%......sorry for using a statistical term
by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 22, 2008 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mentioned David West earlier
so besides Paul (I agree, he’d make Deng better) another contrast with Deng and West is how they’ve been developed.
These are two guys who, like I mentioned earlier, are pretty comparable in size and athleticism (coming into the league) and in their style of play. They both mostly played the 4 in college.
I don’t know how they personally see their games, but I don’t see any reason to think Deng couldn’t have developed more like West did.
West has worked pretty hard to add strength and muscle. He looks every bit of the 240lbs he’s now listed at, and he doesn’t look to have lost much in the way of quickness. He still makes his bones by being a PF who’s got a quickness advantage over other PFs. He’s just managed to add enough strength that he can hold his own inside.
Deng (be it at his own request, the Bulls, or both) has gone in completely the opposite direction. Instead of developing his strength, they’ve talked him up as a perimeter player who, despite being able to go into the post, was going to be used as “a tall guard”.
Where has this gotten us? Deng is still as skinny as when got here. Even if he bulked up, I think he’d, like West, still be quicker than the average 4. But he’d be strong enough to hold his own against most of them.
On the other hand, what has staying skinny gotten him? Compared to other guys on the perimeter, he’s still below average in terms of his quickness. He’s still not the kind of shooter or ball-handler you want a guard to be. So why do they persist in pushing him in this direction?
Wouldn’t the better course of action be to look at the guy and conclude “hey, he’s not going to get any quicker, but he can quite probably get stronger”.
Probably every off-season I’ve looked at Deng and thought that his best use would be moving inside instead of outside.
by Sports2 on Apr 22, 2008 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with Deng moving inside
is he doesn’t really have a post game. He is most effective moving around screens and getting his shots off quickly. It would help if he could develop some deceptive moves. Our bigs, due to lack of coaching? don’t seem to have any. Please, someone help Tyrus so he doesn’t get blocked so often.
by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 22, 2008 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neither does West
I’d actually say Deng’s worked on his post game. But he’s twiggy, especially in his lower body, so what we see a lot of when he tries to post up is him getting pushed out of position.
But it’s worth noting that West doesn’t seem like a big time post up guy either. That’s sort of the point I was getting at. He’s very similar to Deng in the way he scores. He’s a very good mid-range shooter who moves without the ball. He can get his buckets inside, but they’re usually from moving and getting a good pass rather than from creating his own shot or posting up.
That is, I wouldn’t look at West and say he’d be our post scoring solution, just like I wouldn’t suggest Deng is. But if Deng could get as strong as West, he could be every bit the quality PF he is.
by Sports2 on Apr 23, 2008 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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