Is Kirk Hinrich primarily responsible for the Bulls' collapse?
by Tim S.
on Apr 20, 2008 4:23 AM CDT
I know Ben Wallace continued to decline, but I judge that we had replacements for Wallace, whereas we did not have replacements for Hinrich. I'm sure other players had problems as well, but I think Wallace and Hinrich declined the most from last year.
I'm far less concerned about the hunt for a new coach than I am about whether Hinrich can return to form, or whether Paxson can, through the draft or elsewhere, find a replacement. Can someone who followed the last, say, 30 games of the season comment about whether Hinrich looked okay during those games? I'm afraid I lost interest.
FanPosts are user-created posts from the BlogABull community, and are to be treated as the opinions and views of that particular user, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.
0 recs |
74
comments
EmailComments
My first post
On the new platform! :D
Oh, to add something not OT…
I am much more concerned about the new coach than Kirk…
by BAB-Bass on Apr 20, 2008 5:58 AM CDT 0 recs
Hinrich
Hinrich is garbage! He is probably the least talented Captain of any NBA team. His ineptitude has been detrimental to the development of Gordon and Sefo. The Bulls will not make it to the finals with Hinrich as their starting pg. Hopefully we trade Kirk and draft a pg.
by 234L on Apr 20, 2008 8:28 AM CDT 0 recs
I need to get used to this new platform
I would like to consider trading Hinrich + others to get the 1st or 2nd pick in the draft. Look at the difference Paul made last night. I don’t know if Derrick Rose is that good but it might be worth a shot.
by chgobr on Apr 20, 2008 8:28 AM CDT 0 recs
Who in their right mind
would trade away Derrick Rose if they get him as their pick? It seems to me we’d either break the odds and get Rose in the lottery directly…or never get him at all. Because who would trade him away? Especially for Hinrich, since everyone says he sucks. It is one thing to say Paul is so great, because he is really great, but the greats don’t grow on trees and you are extremely lucky to get them, especially great point guards. I don’t see us getting Rose for a couple draft picks and Hinrich, a guy that has been publicly criticized by fans and the media.
by cranscape on
Apr 20, 2008 11:52 AM CDT
up
0 recs
There is plenty of blame to go around.
Every player that we considered to be a core player had a bad season beginning in camp with injuries, contract distractions, divisive headbands and general disregard for team play. The coaches took the falls, but the players should share the blame.
by Dionysus2.0 on Apr 20, 2008 8:36 AM CDT 0 recs
You can't single out one guy.
For as much as the superstars get credit, it is hardly fair to criticize and blame one guy specifically for a whole team’s collapse when the whole team failed to produce. Now if Kirk was the ONLY player to have a rough season and the team still lost 45+ games then yeah, he’s to blame. The seasons of Gordon, Deng, Wallace, Thomas and Hinrich weren’t anywhere close to what was expected OR should have been at this point in their careers.
Would Hinrich look/play better if Wallace wasn’t a complete ogre around the rim? Would his assist numbers look better if Deng developed more than he actually did or if Tyrus had more consistent playing time? All things considered, there are worse options at PG currently in the league and while I won’t profess to be 100% satisfied with Kirk, there are probably only 15-20 players in the entire league who’s fans are that satisfied with them.
by CubFan81 on Apr 20, 2008 9:27 AM CDT 0 recs
I'm not blaming it all on Hinrich. I'm just saying he
and Wallace had the biggest drop offs from last year, and that Hinrich was harder to replace with the available back-ups. It’s because Hinrich was so important to the team when they were good last year that his drop-off hurt the team so much this year.
by Tim S. on
Apr 20, 2008 11:51 PM CDT
up
0 recs
Hinrich's drop off is more a reflection of the team than vice versa
because Hinrich never drove the offense the way some point guards do. Hinrich gets most of his assists on jumpshots, so consequently, if guys aren’t hitting their shots, Hinrich isn’t getting assists. He also typically passes early and waits for the ball to rotate around and there wasn’t a lot of high pass possesions this year. His defense definitely got worse this year though.
2008 or bust.
by bullshooter on
Apr 21, 2008 12:31 PM CDT
up
0 recs
I'm not
the biggest Hinrich supporter in the entire world, but nearly everyone’s stats, effort and general performance fell off. I mean, watching alot of games this season, there were clearly moments of poor in-game performances, poor coaching, but also, and I don’t think this gets mentioned too often, other teams may have figured out the Bulls ‘system’ and weren’t surprised by them the way they had been in the previous few seasons. No team left Gordon wide open like they used to, they ran Hinrich hard off of picks, and generally did a good job isolating individual players that need to work off of one another to succeed. That’s my two cents.
The Future is Unwritten
by paxcore5 on Apr 20, 2008 10:31 AM CDT 0 recs
Kirk is also
responsible for global warming, famine in Africa, the war in Iraq and the horrible winter we just went through. Sheesh!!!
by sue369 on Apr 20, 2008 11:10 AM CDT 0 recs
no way
Kirk has been way too distracted by his marriage, and he’s obviously become complacent since signing a new contract.
by hscs on
Apr 20, 2008 11:16 AM CDT
up
0 recs
And funny as it sounds
Gordon and Deng became worse after not signing. I bet they were thinking, “If we sign like Hinrich did we’ll suck. Better not sign.” Turns out it is suck if we do, suck if we don’t.
by cranscape on
Apr 20, 2008 11:48 AM CDT
up
0 recs
you forgot
the civil war and the extinction of dinosaurs
by shoryuken on
Apr 20, 2008 11:17 AM CDT
up
0 recs
Sue!
I sometimes think I enjoy your comments the most.
by ChiCityMermaid on
Apr 20, 2008 11:39 AM CDT
up
0 recs
I think Kirk
was far better at the end of the season than he was during the begging. Especially with Thabo running besides him
by Option27 on Apr 20, 2008 12:29 PM CDT 0 recs
His stats were certainly much better
And actually for the season, his stats per minute weren’t that far off, but he played fewer minutes per game. (Of course, playing poorly doens’t exactly lead to an increase in minutes, unless your name is Larry.)
He certainly didn’t improve on last season, but given that he’s not age-wise on the downside of his career like Wallace, I’m hoping he’ll be OK. I think pretty much everyone on the team will benefit from having a better idea of what is expected of them and from a more consistent rotation. There were nights under Boylan where no 5-man lineup played more than 8 minutes together.
08-09 _has_ to be better, right?
by wjb1492 on
Apr 20, 2008 1:58 PM CDT
up
0 recs
Continuity was supposed to be their strength this year.
I don’t think they will have much continuity at the beginning of next year, regardless of who coaches. But I’m heartened to hear Kirk played better at the end of the season, albeit in more limited minutes. Maybe he can return to form.
Of course, right now I’m just hoping for an average team. Hopes for a championship are long gone.
by Tim S. on
Apr 20, 2008 11:56 PM CDT
up
0 recs
We can trade
Kirk for a pair of rocket boosters for Aaron Gray!
by serbstream on Apr 20, 2008 12:39 PM CDT 0 recs
If you can get
Deron Williams or Chris Paul, sure, trade him. Otherwise, he’s about as good as anybody else, and with a smaller contract than most over the next few years assuming he and the team rebound from a year where they forgot how to play together and off of each other..
BTW, it doesn’t look like there is much room on the right. And we all know how BaB Conversations end up on the right side of the page. And is anybody else getting weird behavior in this message box with the caps lock key and highlighting and editing?
2008 or bust.
by bullshooter on Apr 20, 2008 1:13 PM CDT 0 recs
kicking the tires
I think the signature behavior has changed, too.
You thought there was a lot of blank space here before. Well, look how much space they are giving us now. I could put War and Peace in here, or a discussion about what the real definition of the BG TO is... And that would just take up the first six or seven lines. In fact, when I finally get warmed up, I might have to put in an in depth 2008-2009 season preview in here.
by bullshooter on
Apr 20, 2008 1:33 PM CDT
up
0 recs
That's because each post doesn't slide over nearly as much as in the old format.
Err, at least I think that’s the case.
by Illini15 on
Apr 20, 2008 1:50 PM CDT
up
0 recs
Isnt Calderon a free agent this offseason ? I’ll take my chances with him
by SK23 on Apr 20, 2008 5:06 PM CDT 0 recs
Restricted
"Worker bees can leave.
Even drones can fly away.
The Queen is their slave."
by jpchi on
Apr 20, 2008 8:23 PM CDT
up
0 recs
cant just put it on kirk
like it was said before he played much better with thabo in the backcourt. this way he isnt spending everything he had on defense gaurding biggger or quicked guys that gordon obviously could not. he been taking the harder gaurd assignment for three years and eventually its been too much for him. if anything part of his struggles were due to gordon having no defensive skills.
Ralph Wiggum, a smarter man than Jim Boylan
by Yibs on Apr 20, 2008 5:54 PM CDT 0 recs
the entire defense sucked
Even with the emergence of the Amazing Thabo, Gordon on the bench, and Larry Hughes’ passing lane magic. But blame it on Gordon if it makes you feel better.
by hscs on
Apr 20, 2008 6:16 PM CDT
up
0 recs
I didn't just put it on Kirk.
I just think his drop-off hurt the team the most.
by Tim S. on
Apr 20, 2008 11:58 PM CDT
up
0 recs
No!
Still Kirk hasn’t played well the last two years. He has no general coaching, no conditioning program, no offensive coaching, no mentioning, etc.
Try P A X S O N, and management
by exult463 on Apr 20, 2008 6:31 PM CDT 1 recs
Completely Off-Topic
Anyone else having Withdrawl sydrome. I really miss the old blogabull layout, i dont know why…
im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.
by piccolomair on Apr 20, 2008 6:36 PM CDT 0 recs
Meh
This new “Use the C key” to scroll from new post to new post is pretty awesome and negates any reservations I might have had. Plus, it really does look better.
by Illini15 on
Apr 20, 2008 7:58 PM CDT
up
0 recs
With Duhon undoubtedly gone
and Hinrich having the sub-par season, it’s seems as a no brainer that the Bulls look towards drafting a point guard in the draft. There isn’t a Chris Paul type elite point guard worth over paying for in the free agent market. Most likely we’ll have Mr. Hinrich for at least one more season.
by RogersPark Kris on Apr 20, 2008 8:09 PM CDT 0 recs
Just one change with Hinrich
He’s not captain material. He’s not vocal enough to be the floor leader. He doesn’t have any of those NBA referee political skills to ease his team into calls or at least obtaining a better balance.
I still see Hinrich as a very serviceable NBA starting guard. I don’t think he has enough attractive value to get anything back other than another contract that would look almost the same as Hinrich’s.
With a new coach, I see Hinrich returning to form.
by NBA Observer on Apr 21, 2008 9:21 AM CDT 0 recs
I was pretty amazed
that the team voted for Hinrich and Deng as captains as neither seem to talk much on the floor or act like they do anything captainy – at least not on camera. I figured they must be locker room type captains, but after a season like this where the locker room was in the media so much…doesn’t look that way either. Then again, who on the team would have stood out as the obvious choice? None of them seem very interested in leading. Well, Duhon has been quoted as saying he wanted to go to a team where he could be the leader…makes me chuckle a little. Sounds like he is looking to be on the Grizzles or Clippers. Because otherwise there will be guys over him in the food chain.
by cranscape on
Apr 21, 2008 10:07 AM CDT
up
0 recs
His teammates
must value different things in a captain than you since he’s been a captain three times now.
by sue369 on
Apr 21, 2008 10:25 AM CDT
up
0 recs
the probably valued
getting the vote over with.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Apr 21, 2008 10:42 AM CDT
up
0 recs
If that was
the case then BG may have been chosen but sadly he wasn’t. :P
by sue369 on
Apr 21, 2008 1:07 PM CDT
up
0 recs
His teammates valued
the Boss, Paxson attempting to label him “Kirk” as franchise player three years ago. That failed. Therefore no one else, including Kirk is captain material? They tried to force it on Wallace, and he didn’t want it. Wallace just wanted a paycheck.
We have been put to sleep with such average players, no one speaks of any from this bunch making the All Star team, occassionally some still think Tyrus will be a Super Star. Tyrus won’t ever make the All Star team let alone be a Super Star.
Kirk’s contract in comparison to his non leadership ability and skills-play is out of sync. Actually Kirk is playing like a second team PG, but maybe with a good offensive coach and good conditioning he could return to being a servicable starting PG in te NBA with a hefty contract.
by exult463 on
Apr 21, 2008 10:48 AM CDT
up
0 recs
Clearly, but where has that taken them?
A Captain needs to be driven to lead. One can be voted to lead through no fault of their own and rather an exposure of fault in everyone else up for consideration. It’s true, Hinrich and Deng raised their hands in the captains vote. That was with Skiles. What will it be with another coach?
Lets say a good start with the next team captain(s) is a sit down between the new captain(s) and the press in a private session explaining why they are the captain and what they going to do as captain.
by NBA Observer on
Apr 21, 2008 11:25 AM CDT
up
0 recs
Ben Gordon
and Duhon raised their hands too but were not chosen. Skiles was not present when they chose the captains. I see no reason why the captains need to have any kind of session with the press to discuss why they were chosen and what they are going to do as captain.
As far as being driven to lead, how do we know that they haven’t tried to lead but Skiles put a limit on how much he would let them lead? Boylan admitted that he liked Kirk showing leadership after he took over coaching the team. I still think there are many things we know nothing about with this team.
by sue369 on
Apr 21, 2008 1:23 PM CDT
up
0 recs
Duhon
I believe Duhon, on the right team, is going to surprise many of us BaB with his future success? I believe he has leadership potential, and decent skills that can get marginally better.
Look at Pargo? In the right situation, with encouragement and mentoring he looks about as servicable as Ben Gordon (the future 50 million dollar man). I believe Pargo is making 1.5 to 2 million a year…
by exult463 on
Apr 23, 2008 12:54 PM CDT
up
0 recs
Just another case of looks being deceiving.
Comparing the 2 for this year alone, it’s not very close. Gordon’s 4 years younger and more likely to improve on this season than Pargo as well.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on
Apr 23, 2008 1:10 PM CDT
up
0 recs
We have been put to sleep with such average players
we even think Gooden is good? and potentially our best player.?. It’s time to watch the NBA Playoffs.. we must be too attached to this bunch of scrubs on the Bulls roster
by exult463 on Apr 21, 2008 10:59 AM CDT 0 recs
The remarkable thing about last year's Bulls team
was how well they did without any certifiable superstars. This year’s version is the Philadelphia 76rs: scrappy players who do better than expected, and throw a scare into the best teams in the league - but they can’t take the next step without some superstars. What’s more, they are one or two injuries or down years from the lottery, as with this year’s Bulls. But then in a sense every NBA team is fragile - look at how quickly Miami fell to the bottom of the league. It’s the teams that keep doing it every year like the Spurs or, to a lesser extent, the Pistons, who are the exception.
by Tim S. on
Apr 21, 2008 4:07 PM CDT
up
0 recs
Meh
They might be similar in that they’re young and balanced, but Iggy is a whole lot better than anyone on the Bulls’ roster if this year and last. Also, they have a management that actually demands that the young guys play! What a novel concept!
by Illini15 on
Apr 21, 2008 4:20 PM CDT
up
0 recs
Well excuse the crude analogy, but
it’s hard to find out what stinks so bad with so much garbage all over the place. To translate: we don’t know how much of it was Kirk, on his own, when everybody was horrible.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Apr 22, 2008 3:36 PM CDT 0 recs
Does anyone know
Did kirk play his best basketball when Ben gordon and luol deng were out due to injury? I remember him owning the pacers, and i went to the Bulls v Suns game where hinrich also seemed on track. I think i remember a few more games when i threw the “We dont need Gordon when we have kirk” line at my brother (anyone who takes that quote too seriously should get smacked btw) due to kirk scoring well and playing point decently too. It was also when thabo was pushed to start. Of course it wasnt like we started winning without gordon or deng, but thought in terms of how at least one player is playing, kirk was playing real well. It was a shame he couldnt keep that performance up when the contract buddies showed up. Anyway, can anyone either ditto this thought, or find (or tell me where to find) statistical proof of this.
im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.
by piccolomair on
Apr 22, 2008 4:06 PM CDT
up
0 recs
He did play
pretty well when the others were out. I think he either got his scoring record in one of the games or at least close. Wait, it was his scoring record: 38 vs. Indiana 01/23/08. He seemed to be looking for his own shot more and I think a number of other players were having better games at the same time. Thabo in particular. Hinrich got his scoring up and his assists were ok. Can’t remember if he did anything in the 4th quarter, whenhe seems to disappear.
Asst / Pts
(Jan 30 MIN) 8 / 16 <br />(Jan 29 vs. MIN) 6 / 27 <br />(Jan 27 vs. PHX ) 3 / 31 <br />(Jan 25 vs. CHA) 8 / 14 <br />(Jan 23 vs. IND) 10 / 38 <br />(Jan 21 MEM) 6 / 12
by cranscape on
Apr 22, 2008 9:59 PM CDT
up
0 recs
Uh. That didn't post well.
Just go here and look at January.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kirk_hinrich/game_by_game_stats.html
by cranscape on
Apr 22, 2008 10:00 PM CDT
up
0 recs
Hey Thanks Cranscape
It seems in the month of January kirk was avg. 17 pts per game, 6.3 assists per game with only 2 turnovers per game. I guess thats closer to his average, in other words, that month would reflect the real hinrich? Too bad its still a pretty inconsistent month.
im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.
by piccolomair on
Apr 23, 2008 3:23 AM CDT
up
0 recs
Don't know if that is real Hinirch
but he needs more stretches of that and less of the hang-dog attitude we got at the beginning of the season. The refs were on him all of the time but he is in the NBA and he needs to adapt. I guess we will find out or we won’t.
by cranscape on
Apr 25, 2008 12:39 AM CDT
up
0 recs
Captain Kirk is garbage
He is the number one reason the Bulls stink. His game is stale and he has robbed gordon and sefo of valuable minutes. its been several years since his play had a positive impact on the Bulls. The fact that he is captain is just sad… seeing that must really worry opposing teams. he is definitely not worthy of being a captain on an NBA squad or his $10 mill a year deal. its cool if people dig his style of play or personality, but if you think he is an effective basketball player u are loco.
by 234L on Apr 23, 2008 4:50 AM CDT 0 recs
Kikr has not
robbed Gordon or Thabo of any minutes. The reason the Bulls stunk this year is because it was a team effort.
by sue369 on
Apr 23, 2008 9:45 AM CDT
up
0 recs
the team stunk
and kirk was the captain and starting point guard. Its all on Kirk and i suppose Pax for paying the fool, PG is similar to the qb position.,, look at how much better tyson is with CP3 than kirk. Kirk’s game has not progressed since college and most games the other teams pg just shits all over him while the Bulls pass it around the arc for 23 seconds and hope BGs jump shot falls…. Kirk is just a white Duhon
by 234L on
Apr 23, 2008 11:36 PM CDT
up
0 recs
Ahem
Deng is also captain. Why can’t anyone remember?
How can it be all on Kirk? One guy, a guy who wasn’t much better or worse as far as game influence from the year before where we made it to the second round of the playoffs, be the reason for everything that went down this year? He made Wallace be unable to jump? He made Deng and Gordon get injured? He controlled the coach as to who played and who was benched all season? He fired Skiles? He hired Boylan? He controled trades? He makes people miss shots or get lazy on defense? You seem to argue he is inept but at the same time peg him as some evil, team destroying mastermind. He can’t be both. Everyone regressed and everyone didn’t step up. His averages were down, but they were never great enough to make or break a season. Just serviceable in a role he fits better than anyone else on the team as far as results.
Everyone is better with Chris Paul. You have no point there.
White Duhon? I am not going to touch that one pal. Those are your issues coming out.
by cranscape on
Apr 25, 2008 12:37 AM CDT
up
0 recs
"everyone is better with Chris Paul"
that sentiment is getting old fast. Chandler, Peja, and David West were better than their Bulls counterparts before Chris Paul had an amazing season. Bonzi and Mo Pete beat the pants off of Noc and Sefolosha as well.
by hscs on
Apr 25, 2008 7:05 AM CDT
up
0 recs
Fine. You beat that drum.
What is getting old with me is comparing Kirk to Chris Paul. It is damn clear he isn’t as good as Paul, but he still isn’t garbage. We might as well string up all of our guys for not being as good as the best in their positions in the rest of the league. Shame on them.
by cranscape on
Apr 25, 2008 8:55 AM CDT
up
0 recs
I agree with you
With the exception of how important a point guard is. Paul is the best player on the Hornets, and they wouldn’t be very good without him, but he (like Hinrich) doesn’t deserve all the credit/blame for the up and down play of teammates. I’m sure an offense runs better with a great point guard, but a really good offensive player is going to have the same effect at any position.
by hscs on
Apr 25, 2008 10:00 AM CDT
up
0 recs
everybody's stats went down
kirk is the point guard (and captain ha)and is responsible for distributing the ball and making sure that everybody else’s stats/points go up. That clearly is not the case with Hinrich. How is a guy who on a nightly basis is slower and less talented than the other teams guard going to elevate the level of team play (a pg’s role). its just not gonna happen. The thing about tyson’s succes with Paul (other than the fact that tyson never left the floor when he was on the bulls) that pisses me off is that as unpolished as TT is he is much more athletic and able to finish around the hoop than chandler is now or ever was. Paul’s ability to make more out of less is only used as a barometer to show that Hinrich does less with more. As far as Deng being a captain he is younger with less experience and having not signed the extension he wasn’t getting paid as much as Hinrich. Hinrich is made $10 mil this year and will next making him second only to larry hughes. As the highest paid member of “the core” he deserves the lions share of the responsibility. As far as whether or not Hinrich was responsible for this specific bad act or that poor decision… the answer is YES!! paying your captain and point guard $10 million a year while getting the performance of a bad bench player is going to put considerable strain on the team. This pressure is even greater in this case because having signed hinrich long term has jeopardized the resigning of deng and gordon who are better players. The faith shown in hinrich by pax and i suppose skiles is matched in stupidity only by the reluctance to acknowledge that signing him was a mistake. Hinrich is the devil. accept it and move on.
by 234L on
Apr 25, 2008 9:45 AM CDT
up
0 recs
I don’t know where it’s written
(outside of your post, that is) that a player’s stats have to keep going up year after year.
The best one can reasonably expect is that a player takes a jump the first few years, stabilizes (“stabilizes” = a little up, a little down, a little up…) for a long period, then gradually declines as he approaches the end of his career.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on
Apr 25, 2008 9:55 AM CDT
up
0 recs
No, he's
not the devil and you need to let this go. You don’t like Kirk but to blame him for everything is just stupid.
by sue369 on
Apr 25, 2008 10:14 AM CDT
up
0 recs
u are right
it is not his fault that Jordan left… or at least i havent been able to prove it
by 234L on
Apr 25, 2008 11:20 AM CDT
up
0 recs
Is it Kirk's fault the Bulls sucked?
No, The defense sucked this year because the coaches sucked big time and they no longer were being forced by Skyles to maximize their efforts. They knew Boylan was an ass clown who had no idea how to correct their defensive lapses. He watched Skyles and listened to his rants, but could neither understand, retain or communicate them to the players who collectively tuned him out when it became obvious he was just an empty suit with a red nose who neither commanded or deserved their respect or their fear.
by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 27, 2008 3:06 AM CDT 0 recs
