Another proof of Nocioni's bad contract?

by Diabolo on Apr 17, 2008 4:55 AM CDT

From the commercial appeal in Memphis (via Truehoop) :

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/apr/16/warrick-answered-call-to-shine/

"PORTLAND, Ore. -- When the Chicago Bulls placed a call to the Grizzlies, as the NBA's trade deadline loomed, offering a package with Andres Nocioni, Joakim Noah and Tyrus Thomas as the essential components for Pau Gasol and Hakim Warrick, the potential trade fell on deaf ears.

The Grizzlies flatly declined. Sure, they wanted more for Gasol at the time.

The organization also believed that it would be giving away Warrick without enough compensation.

Warrick a deal-breaker?

He's been called worse."

WOW, I guess Memphis was not that interested in Nocioni last summer (or his new contract really is a deal breaker), otherwise why would they pass on the chance to get two great front-court prospects to go with their young and promising backcourt (Gay, Conley, etc).

I'm kinda happy they refused (for the Bulls), although only if the Bulls start trusting and developping Tyrus.

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Comments

i'm much happier

with a tyrus, joakim, drew frontcourt than i would be with a wallace, gasol, smith one.

"Joakim Noah looks like a young Kimberly Williams." - my mom

by Jaina on Apr 17, 2008 7:27 AM CDT reply actions

Me too !

And Memphis probably would rather have a Darko/Tyrus/Noah frontcourt for the next 10 years, rather than a Darko show down low (Kwame not being retained this offseason, and even if he was that wouldn't change the equation).

The Game chose him !

by Diabolo on Apr 17, 2008 7:39 AM CDT up reply actions

Memphis is really lost

Name one free agent acquisition in the last five years besides Darko.

We could have acquired Gasol if we were offering draft picks. The Lakers, and their likely late 20s picks, offered their 08 and 10 1st round selections. Memphis cannot sign players other than their own draft selections.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 17, 2008 8:07 AM CDT reply actions

How dare you!

The Brian Cardinal signing was huge!!!!

"I took a couple of bad shots," Gordon said

by BNeL21 on Apr 17, 2008 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions

When did the Gasol deal happen?

Wasn't it before the Bulls would have even been able to deal Nocioni?

by snley on Apr 17, 2008 8:40 AM CDT reply actions

I think so

He was still a BYC guy.

Stephen Curry is the lowpost answer!

by hscs on Apr 17, 2008 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions

Good question.

I don't remember this fact. Was Nocioni eligible to be dealt at the deadline at all ? Or did they have to wait only until mid-December or something ? I think it's the latter, in which case he could have been dealt when the deal with the Lakers happened.

The Game chose him !

by Diabolo on Apr 17, 2008 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions

he could have been traded

for half the value of his first year salary.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#73

Stephen Curry is the lowpost answer!

by hscs on Apr 17, 2008 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions

Wow, didn't realize how close that was to the

deadline. Trade happened on Feb 1, so Nocioni would have been eligible for the trade, but as BYC player, would have been difficult to include.

by snley on Apr 17, 2008 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions

Yup

I think the confusion is that if Nocioni was signed to an offer sheet that the Bulls matched, then he couldn't have been traded.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 17, 2008 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions

I was sitting on this story

(really, I should just post more)

I thought another interesting point was that this package relegated Tyrus to a 'throw in'. (really, Warrick is also longy and jumpy, but he's no replacement)

In previous reports the Bulls had only offered Noc and Noah.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 17, 2008 9:34 AM CDT reply actions

Heisley's comments shortly after the trade

were along the lines of, 'the Bulls were only sending bench guys.' What a silly guy.

Stephen Curry is the lowpost answer!

by hscs on Apr 17, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions

If only the Bulls could have offered front court

starters like Kwame Brown.

by RogersPark Kris on Apr 17, 2008 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions

Paxson probably thought

that's exactly what he was doing when he offered Tyrus Thomas as part of the deal.

by alec on Apr 17, 2008 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions

I used to consider Warrick

a replacement for Thomas. It's not even close. Warrick's a nice player, but he just doesn't have an upside anywhere close to what Thomas could become.

I think Warrick wants to play the SF position. By now he should have acquired some bulk to complement his clear strengths in a back to the basket game.

He seems comfortable in his path to an MLE career.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 17, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions

Guh

The whole year long Memphis-Chicago negotiation should pretty much destroy everyone's faith in both teams under their current management.

Chicago refused to give up enough at various points, and then was willing to give up too much, while still never being smart enough to actually figure out what the hell Memphis wanted. The Bulls were offering cap space when Memphis wanted talent, and then they offered talent with Memphis wanted cap space. Morons. The Bulls had enough expiring contracts to make a deal work, they simply weren't willing to spend a moderate amount or weren't smart enough to do it. Either way, we got hosed.

And lest Memphis be off the hook, how could their fans look at that mess and root for it? They could have gotten both financial relief and talent if they played their cards right, but they totally screwed the pooch too.

Not to take things off topic, but it's like the NBA equivalent of the Iraq war. Even if you think it was a good idea in theory to get rid of Saddam and/or democratize Iraq it's been such a cluster fuck that you wouldn't trust anyone in charge of it to successfully walk a dog.

My Blog (Econ/Politics/Sports/NBA Salary Info)

by Sports2 on Apr 17, 2008 10:19 AM CDT reply actions

Sports, I don't mean to argue against your point,

because in the world of the written word it's a good analogy. But what makes it different are the real world stakes. This many years in, I'm pretty sure we all know families that have lost a son or a daughter, a brother or a sister...and that makes it different on a scale beyond analogy or mere metaphor.

by alec on Apr 17, 2008 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions

ugh

it's insulting and annoying to point out the obvious 'perspective', and why SportsTwo should've known better to make that kind of statement here in the first place.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 17, 2008 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions

Sorry to insult and annoy you.

by alec on Apr 17, 2008 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions

Sheesh

Sorry I left an opening you two could sneak a catfight into :P

My Blog (Econ/Politics/Sports/NBA Salary Info)

by Sports2 on Apr 17, 2008 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions

You did do a good job, though...

...of saying you don't want to argue the point, and then arguing it. The Hand of God forced you, I understand.

(just wanted to join the fun.)

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Apr 17, 2008 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions

I didn't think Gasol

was a player to take that would carry you into paying the luxury tax. If you're going to compete within a financial framework that's going to pay the luxury tax you really should either be resigning your own superstars or acquiring a new one.

Kobe's too good to pretend Gasol is the key for the Lakers. He really helps them and so much more than Kwame Brown, but Kobe can make lesser players click much more than any single or tandem group from our roster.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 17, 2008 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions

look what he did for Shaq!

Oops, that should be a question mark. I don't buy the making players better theory. The Lakers just have better players.

Stephen Curry is the lowpost answer!

by hscs on Apr 17, 2008 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions

No player makes another player better

(unless you count practicing with them). What actually happens (I'm sure you know this and you're just playing with the words) is that a great player will draw away a more modestly talented player's defender.

With no defender, pretty much any nba player can score. Has he been made better? Well, his numbers will improve, but it's doubtful he's become a better player--put him back on the court among lesser talented team mates, and his numbers should revert to norms.

by alec on Apr 17, 2008 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions

case in point,

see ANYONE who has EVER played with Jordan, and then went to another team.

by NormVanBeer on Apr 17, 2008 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions

I don't presume

that to play with a better player will elevate a complimentary player so that they will retain such a skill set. The star that assists in elevating the players around him is not something that is permanently transferred.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 17, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions

What about

When star players get better by having complementary players around them?

My Blog (Econ/Politics/Sports/NBA Salary Info)

by Sports2 on Apr 17, 2008 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions

Can you clarify?

When star players get better by having complementary players around them?

Do you mean in the sense that the skills acquired by the star player are permanent?

If so, then no. Perhaps if a players survival in the league depended on that it may then become permanent, but the lifespan of an NBA career just isn't long enough to consider it. It's like a botanical garden. You can obtain more color, a greater scent, larger plants merely by planting complimentary plants around your desired target of growth.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 17, 2008 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions

first Iraq

now botanical gardens. This offseason is starting out with a bang!

Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 17, 2008 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions

I'm going to talk to the SBNation tech team

and make sure there's some 'mistake' in the changeover, and all accounts are erased.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 17, 2008 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions

It's Spring

and my herbs are in bloom. I'm in that botanical frame of mind.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 17, 2008 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions

alley-oop!

a special type of herb, no doubt.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 17, 2008 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions

What can I do?

I'm no home wrecker and the dill, basil, cilantro, and unknown bastard child X are all from the same plant family.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 17, 2008 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions

Nothing like fresh basil

when you're trying to break down some tape...

Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 17, 2008 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions

by the way....

love your sig...howd u do that???

Kirk Hinrich. The FORMER Best White American Point Guard in the NBA, Will Soon be Traded :(

by piccolomair on Apr 18, 2008 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions

since you don't have your email

listed, you can send me an email.

Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 18, 2008 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions

Wonder why

I don't see your sig?

by sue369 on Apr 18, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions

I don't see it either

I've always been confused why there's so much seemingly blank space underneath all of bullshooter's posts.

by Illini15 on Apr 18, 2008 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions

Haha

Right after I typed that, I realized what he did. Double click in that blank space and voila!

by Illini15 on Apr 18, 2008 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions

I was wondering if anybody noticed it

Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 18, 2008 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions

still nothing

by sue369 on Apr 18, 2008 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions

How about now?

:-)

Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 18, 2008 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions

nope

by sue369 on Apr 18, 2008 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions

Sue, drag and highlight

from the period at the end of this sentence to the date below.

Hi Sue! ;-)

by bullshooter on Apr 18, 2008 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions

Hi

back at ya. :-)

by sue369 on Apr 18, 2008 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions

You are

A very funny man...

Kirk Hinrich. The FORMER Best White American Point Guard in the NBA, Will Soon be Traded :(

by piccolomair on Apr 18, 2008 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions

I'm not talking about permanent skills

I'm arguing it's not about "stars" and "complementary role players" at all.

Kobe Bryant doesn't (temporarily or permanently) make Derek Fisher any better than Fisher makes Bryant. Instead of asking how much better a star makes lesser players, I'd put it differently and ask what effect Shammond Williams and Derek Fisher have on Bryant.

If it was all about the effect Bryant bestows on lesser players then Shammond Williams would have been the same as Fisher.

My Blog (Econ/Politics/Sports/NBA Salary Info)

by Sports2 on Apr 18, 2008 12:26 AM CDT up reply actions

are there only two types of players?

bryants and fishers? of course not. for example, bryant makes other players better by taking the focus off of them, i.e. getting them open looks. Guys who make a higher percentage of shots without a hand in their face will naturally benefit. Guys who don't won't.

Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 18, 2008 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions

It's a semantic argument.

Bryant (or enter other superstar of your choosing) can't do anything to make other players better by his mere presence. He just makes the game less difficult for them.

by snley on Apr 18, 2008 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions

I'd explain to Reinsdorf

how seriously they messed up financially with Wallace, so much so that paying some tax may be necessary for a couple years, but super-promise that they'd go back under after his deal (or the deal for whoever they got by trading him) would expire.

And then, of course, after winning a title, they'd have an excuse to stay above that tax for good...

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 17, 2008 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions