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Open Game Thread #80: Bulls vs. Orlando Magic

[ed. note: Thanks to chgobr for today's game preview. -Matt]

A loss tonight ties us with Charlotte and puts us two games behind Jersey with two games left.  Tie breakers are broken by drawings so we will not be penalized by having won the series with Charlotte 3-1.  The 8th pick is possible.  

We have a disease.  Noah discusses how it can spread. You gotta love this guy.  

"It's a disease, and it spreads throughout the whole team," Noah said calmly. "It's just really, really hard right now because regardless what we do, there's no light at the end of the tunnel, especially for this season.

"We're not really playing with a lot of pride and respect for the jersey. It's just hard because you can't point at anybody individually. It's just our togetherness as a team is just bad. You can talk about Florida. But if you're a Bulls fan, I'm not a champion anymore. We're losers. We lose. That's all we do. That's all there is to say."


My recurring nightmare - the disease spreads to next season. We need infectious disease control.

RANDOM TOUGHTS as we enter the most important part of next season:

Star-divide

1.    The obvious - Find the right coach.  Rick Carlisle's name is popping up in the New York Post

Walsh is not bent on seeking an experienced coach, otherwise Rick Carlisle and Scott Skiles would be favorites. Carlisle is being pursued by Milwaukee. Skiles is at a terrible disadvantage because Curry and Jamal Crawford both dislike him - and the feeling is mutual.  and in the Milwaukee Journal . Carlisle would win soon. He won big very quickly in Indiana and Detroit, where he once worked with Hammond. It would seem like a natural fit. But Carlisle will be in great demand. Chicago and New York may want to hire him. It's time for the senator's wallet to again compete with the big boys. Carlisle is incredibly demanding, which would be perfect for this undisciplined team. He also struggles with people skills, which was a reason why he was fired after winning 50 games for two franchises. Maybe he has learned from those experiences. Even if he has not, that's OK, because the short-term tradeoff for this organization would be worth it. The Sun-Times quote below has a different take on Carlisle, Skiles and New York. I believe the New York Post on this one. The belief in New York is that Walsh has decided to make a change. There's already talk about who will replace Thomas. Former Bulls coach Scott Skiles is thought to be the front-runner, with former Knicks guard Mark Jackson, Boston Celtics assistant Tom Thibodeau and Knicks assistant Herb Williams as possible other candidates.

2.    Don't overpay Deng.  
3.    Gordon playing for the one year qualifying offer of $6.4 is a good deal for the Bulls.  We get to evaluate him for another year before deciding what to do with him.
4.    Attempt to move one or both long-term contracts of Hinrich and/or Nocioni.  Maybe we can get a 2009 1st round pick and a better contract.
5.    Moving Hughes contract is mission impossible without taking on a worse contract.  Contingency plan - attempt to coach Hughes into a defensive stopper.
6.    Get lucky in the draft.  With almost 400 comments in our endless draft thread I'm totally confused who we should take at the 8-9 pick.  It seems to me there isn't much difference 3-12, but what do I know.
7.    Is DeSagana Diop someone we should consider? I believe he will be a free agent.  Can we get him for a reasonable price?  He could back-up Noah.  Gray becomes the third option.  

Oh yes - we play the Magic 6 PM tonight.  The game is on Comcast.   Can you resist watching when there are only three games left?

BLOGGING WITH THE ENEMY:
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Don't overpay Deng... check.
Make Ben Gordon untradeable, and overpay for Diop with players, and money? Not so much.
Stephen Curry is the lowpost answer!

by hscs on Apr 13, 2008 9:18 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You know
I don't think Donnie Walsh is going to  care that Curry and Crawford don't like Skiles.  I think Curry and Crawford need to worry about Walsh not liking them.

by KT on Apr 13, 2008 9:36 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I would love to believe that Donnie Walsh
will change things in NY. But the jury is out with regard to how much latitude Walsh will actually have.

James Dolan has this special trick he does where he hires some of the best and most brilliant minds in basketball, then sabotages their leadership. He does this by either demanding that they give up all decision-making authority and turning them into yes-men (think Lenny Wilkens). The only input that is accepted from these hires is a flashy, short-term solution that will do little to change the culture of the franchise (think Larry Brown's acquisition of Steve Francis, or Isiah's acquisition of, well, anyone).

So what makes anyone think that Donnie Walsh is above this trend? He's already started being a yes-man, by refusing to fire Isiah, and now, implying that Isiah will at least remain part of the organization next season, and possibly may be coaching.

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Apr 14, 2008 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Walsh did make some breakthroughs
He gets to author his own media policy for the club.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5giIVeWSCq15i4FI6SGZ0RZeCtRiAD8VQ0HJO1

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Holy crap, Diop sucks.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Apr 13, 2008 10:47 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I also don't understand...
...the "do the QO w/ Gordon so the Bulls get another year to evaluate him". A) It's not like there's much to figure out. He is what he is. I, along with a few others, like it. Some don't. B) I can't see Gordon sticking around after next year if the Bulls only offer the QO. I really can't even see him sticking around for next year. When he is clearly the best offensive player on an offensively-deficient team, how is spending a third year on the bench going to help his value any?
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Apr 13, 2008 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think
Gordon's value goes up if he can get back to the efficient shooting he had when he peaked last year. Pair him with a taller, defensively minded guard and we could get scoring power from him while taking the edge off his defensive and ball handling limitations.  That would the way Gordon could be worth it.    

by cranscape on Apr 13, 2008 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Worth it to the team?
My point is that it's a known. You have to make up for his deficiencies for him to be "worth it". They aren't going to learn anything new. If they want him around for next year, fine, but it won't be to "learn more about him."
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Apr 13, 2008 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Most players
are not perfect or even great in every facet of the game.  You have to find a balance with anyone.  Gordon has some flaws, but I do like his upside.  I can't say he has a place on this team next year, but there are ways he could be on the team and contribute without his flaws being fatal for us. We need guys who can score like he can so if we get rid of him we need address the hole he leaves.  We can't just get another defensive guy who might give us 10 points a  night.  We need an offensive player and who would that be?

by cranscape on Apr 13, 2008 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Apparently, I'm not expressing myself clearly.
Do I think Gordon is good? Mostly.
Do I think Gordon's scoring is damn valuable to the Bulls? Yes.
Would I like to see the Bulls keep him around? Depends, but probably.
Do I think the Bulls will learn something new by "evaluat[ing] him for another year before decid[ing] what to do with him"? No, because Gordon is what he is and it likely won't be the Bulls choice "what to do with him" if they only offer him the QO or what-not.

I'd write it off as poor wording by the original author, but it's a sentiment that's crept up a couple of times here. As if the Bulls will have a large say in the matter a year from now. If the Bulls only bring Gordon back for one more year, it would basically be to evaluate the OTHER players on the team to see who (at what position) can help replace the scoring of Gordon in the future while having Gordon around during that development time.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Apr 13, 2008 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, well then.
As far as evaluating goes, I don't really expect him to get better defensively or as a ball handler.  He could improve his efficiency at shooting to the level he was last year...but yeah, we pretty much know his cans and cannots.  If we keep him it would because we like what he is or can't do any better.  

If anything, by not signing him at the beginning of the season THIS was his evaluation year.  And we know how this year went down.

by cranscape on Apr 13, 2008 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dude,
Take a look at his wingspan, then tell me he sucks.
BAB Tyrus Love-Meter -- 8 - Deciding whether next season is going to be similar to Kemp 95-96 or better.

by cubbybear on Apr 13, 2008 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Diop does not suck
He would just be a redundant roster addition when we already have Noah.

Of all the positions, I think center is already established with Noah and Gray.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 8:06 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed, he doesn't suck
but he's not that redundant to Noah, as he's far bigger. So he's redundant to Gray, and would be a better fit since usually you want your big ox to be able to play some post defense since it's assumed they can't do much else. They're not going to sign him as a FA anyway, so I will now rip on Aaron Gray.

Gray doesn't belong in a real NBA rotation, unless he goes to the same mythical body-makeover camp that everyone claims Kevin Love will go. I think Eddy Curry's on the waiting list still.

I guess he can play once a week if you have someone like Gooden (who's at least strong) playing alongside Thomas and/or Noah getting the majority of the time. Bullshooter's idea of having him 'develop' into a '20 minute guy' seems really far-fetched at this point.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I should probably love Diop
considering he would arrive with conditioning, coaching, and confidence entirely developed outside the Bulls organization.

I haven't ruled out Gray's development into our future contract voids at color commentary in the television and radio seats.  :)

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

supposedly, Gray's
a pretty entertaining fellow (off the court, anyway), so he'd be a step up in the TV booth.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll wait...
...until he doesn't suck on a team with four competent-to-damn good offensive players to change my mind. He's horrid on offense. If a player has to be matched up with that many offensive weapons to be effective, he better be Ben Wallace or Dikembe Mutombo on defense.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Apr 14, 2008 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

hughes
cant the bulls trade his contract and something more attractive for a shitty contract that could be useful (such as a 7 footer who can rebound not named  Gray).

by Sambossanova on Apr 13, 2008 10:48 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The money has to match...
what 7 footer out there would you want that has a contract as massive a Hughes?  A 7 footer who would be taking time away from our young bigs.  Because if we are paying him that much we'd be inclined to give him minutes to match.  And if there is a 7 footer out there that someone would be willing to trade for Hughes he'd likely suck anyway.  

by cranscape on Apr 13, 2008 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really
hope they find a way to get rid of Hughes and a way to keep Kirk.

by sue369 on Apr 13, 2008 11:13 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I actually see Kirk staying
Getting a more pure pg, and moving him to SG after BG7 is the "rainmaker" somewhere else.

Maybe Pax will be bold and trade to move up and take Rose, or trade BG(or something else) for a guy like TJ Ford, who, despite injuries(lots of them, I know), can play.

Rose/Ford
Hinrich/Thabo
Deng/Noce
Thomas/Gooden
Noah/Gray

BAB Tyrus Love-Meter -- 8 - Deciding whether next season is going to be similar to Kemp 95-96 or better.

by cubbybear on Apr 13, 2008 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I really
hope you are right.

by sue369 on Apr 13, 2008 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ditto
I want to braid Noah's hair or at least give him a headband.

by AGBallinisaHabit on Apr 13, 2008 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

we cant keep kirk
hes worth too much in a trade.. we have to get him and some other bulls player who hasnt been up to par this year Noc/Deng, possibly TT, and get someone else to lead this team to victory. we cant trade gordon, cuz hes probably the most valuable player on our team right now. and, theres no way anyones willing to pay Hughes 12 mil. hinrich doesnt cut it.. remember how much he sucked in the beginning of the season?? who cares about a draft pick, i mean weve been working around young players these past few years and it hasnt worked too well this season.. we need to lose these last few games, get a high pick, maybe keep him, though he may come in handy in the trade.. who knowss... id just hate to be in paxsons shoes this offseason cuz if he doesnt better this team, hell, perfect it, hed be gettin a lot of hate from the Chi.

by BG74EVER on Apr 13, 2008 4:52 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Um, in case
you weren't watching at the beginning of the season they all sucked. Guess we will have to wait and see who Pax decides to trade.

by sue369 on Apr 13, 2008 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Am I
the only one who thinks that we should wait to see what other teams are offering Gordon and Deng before we decide what to pay them.  We can always match the offers and keep them.  Or, if the offers are above our price range, we could try a sign and trade.  This is the thing that Cleveland did to Varejao at the end of last year.  They let the market determine what they were going to pay him.  

by jpchi on Apr 13, 2008 6:07 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

sign and trade with BG/Deng
Are difficult.  I thought it would be easy to sign and trade them, but apparently if BG and Deng are signed and dealt they would be BYC(base year contract) deals which are rather difficult to trade.
The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 8:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

anybody have a link to a feed
my usual sources aren't coming through.
Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 13, 2008 6:10 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

what are
your usual sources?

by BG74EVER on Apr 13, 2008 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

trust me...
the way the game is starting out, you should be glad that your sources aren't coming through

by NormVanBeer on Apr 13, 2008 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm actually feeling a little sad that it's
the last week of the season.  As miserable of a season as it was, I hate the offseason more than the losing.
It takes a special coach to make Aaron Gray a guy you can see.

by wjb1492 on Apr 13, 2008 6:11 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

wjb1492
You took the words out of my mouth.  It is going to be a long off-season.

by chgobr on Apr 13, 2008 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can already imagine us all,
meeting up here periodically for that Bulls fix.  The lottery, the draft, summer league....  Sigh.

But I also reserve the right to take this sentiment back by the end of this game!  I think I'll go look up the season high for an opponent's shooting percentage, just in preparation.

It takes a special coach to make Aaron Gray a guy you can see.

by wjb1492 on Apr 13, 2008 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

looks like TT made it over two minutes before
getting into foul trouble
Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 13, 2008 6:20 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Hughes can't make a basket.
His shot doesn't even look nice.  How long before Gordon comes in?  At least his shot looks nice even if it doesn't always go in.

by cranscape on Apr 13, 2008 6:22 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

i feel sorry for gordon
even though his stats show that hes a betr shooter as bench player, he deserves to start.. i think thats part of the reason he declined 50 mil (though he still is worth more than 50), and we really need him to start, itll make him feel more appreciated.

by ChiTownCritic on Apr 13, 2008 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

tyrus
was pulled after 2 fouls but Noce gets 2 and stays in?

by NormVanBeer on Apr 13, 2008 6:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

And this surprises you?
I'll say this for Noc - the chucking is right on-line so far.
It takes a special coach to make Aaron Gray a guy you can see.

by wjb1492 on Apr 13, 2008 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Has 13 points
already.  We need to lean on him a bit until others start making shots.  If they are playing to win.  Otherwise, sit Noc fast!  He is too hot to be playing on a tanking team.

by cranscape on Apr 13, 2008 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

does anyone else here hate Gray??
i feel like hes just a big white blob, standing there, passing the ball to the Magic [it wasnt deflected] and fouling... hes not athletic, hes slow, cant shoot... shall i continue?

by ChiTownCritic on Apr 13, 2008 6:40 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Was that Red saying something unflattering about
Aaron Gray?  Has this season worn even him and his Gray-adoration down?
It takes a special coach to make Aaron Gray a guy you can see.

by wjb1492 on Apr 13, 2008 6:41 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Great defense by the Bulls so far
Orlando is only shooting 85% from the field and TT had 2 fouls in 2 minutes, but Noce is on fire.  Bumbo Boylan is going for the win to enhance his resume which insures a loss tonight

by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 13, 2008 6:43 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

{Smells like lottery balls}
Garbage time is our best time.  We play more of it than anyone else!
BAB Tyrus Love-Meter -- 8 - Deciding whether next season is going to be similar to Kemp 95-96 or better.

by cubbybear on Apr 13, 2008 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

woohoo
I LOVE THE CHICAGO BULLShit

by ChiTownCritic on Apr 13, 2008 6:52 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Duhon, Aaron Gray...
thank God this game is on national TV!

by Freethefro on Apr 13, 2008 6:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

technically,
unless u have nba league pass, then its not national [[local]].

by ChiTownCritic on Apr 13, 2008 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

stacy king, red kerr, is there someone else?
king = black guy

kerr = old santa clause guy

am i right?

by ChiTownCritic on Apr 13, 2008 7:02 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Considering how the game started out,
that was a pretty nice 2nd quarter there.
It takes a special coach to make Aaron Gray a guy you can see.

by wjb1492 on Apr 13, 2008 7:15 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Is anybody else listening to KC?
The more I hear him, the less I think of his opinion.  He just said there are no all-stars on this team and then talked about how everybody but Deng would be available...
Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 13, 2008 7:19 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

KC is bush league, Bullshooter
If he actully does get inside information, he sure as hell hasn't shared much with the fans.  So until it is verified by Paxson, I will dismiss it as the mouthings of a nobody trying to act like he really is a somebody.

by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 13, 2008 7:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I never really read anything...
...but disliked the opinions that were quoted here. When I first saw him on WGN a few weeks ago, it was instantaneous dislike. All I could think was, "No wonder sports newspaper journalism sucks if this is the 'best' one of the bigger newspapers in the country has to offer."
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Apr 13, 2008 7:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

no Gordon
since the behind-the-back pass in the 2nd qtr...why is Boylan playing mister disciplinarian with 2.5 games left??

by NormVanBeer on Apr 13, 2008 7:55 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

MVP
goes to..??
so the lakers won today against spurs. one game left, its against SAC, which they killed the last meeting.. that is 57-25 at the end of the season.
new orleans has two games left, against LAC and DAL, which theyre most likely gonna win both.. that also puts them at 57-25... the lakers would be better in their division, being 12-4, hornets division record would be 11-5... does that put LA at #1 for West?

by ChiTownCritic on Apr 13, 2008 7:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Lake Show
if they beat Sac, they're #1 and my vote would go to Kobe. if they lose and CP3 and Co. win both, he should get it.

by Illini15 on Apr 13, 2008 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Duhon, Thabo, Deng, Noc, Gray
Worst Boylan lineup to date, right?

by Illini15 on Apr 13, 2008 7:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

no, not really
there was that game against SA where demetris nichols actually came in..

by ChiTownCritic on Apr 13, 2008 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

bull.com
will not make all my fantasies come true..  ;)

by ChiTownCritic on Apr 13, 2008 8:08 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

This team isn't good
"Honestly. Love, James or Paul; who would you really rather have?" -Kemp

by NittanyBull on Apr 13, 2008 8:20 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Toronto
Good thing Toronto will have something to play for against us wednesday. Looks like we'll get the 8th pick now.
Deandre Jordan, the future hall of fame center for the bulls.

by armstrong2389 on Apr 13, 2008 8:25 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I was at the game...
It was hard to watch. . .I was hoping I'd see Ty dunk on Dwight Howard, but ehh just an overall typical bulls sucks game.  
I want to braid Noah's hair or at least give him a headband.

by AGBallinisaHabit on Apr 13, 2008 10:49 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes, TT looked bad, like the rest of them with
the exception of maybe Noce (-13), but why does BoilBrain limit him to only 22 minutes in a game where he might learn something playing against a telented front line? But I admit, it was a stroke of genius  giving Duhon 26 minutes to prep for the huge role they are planning for him next year.

This idiot is still trying to win the game and played Tyrus less than any starter...His (-11) sucked but no worse than 7 others.  Would it kill him to let Thomas get some more live game experience at this meaningless point in the season? Was he afraid Thomas would foul out or was he back to his old tricks of punishing him for not executing the game plan to perfection?

If Gray is going to be our backup next year, why can't he earn some growing pains against a great center for more than 10 minutes?  The Bulls had nothing to lose by losing and I can't wait for them to lose this pathetic coaching staff.

by Tyrusmancrush on Apr 13, 2008 11:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

at least Hughes was benched
but yeah, I have absolutely no idea why Duhon played that much. it goes against any sane logic.

by Illini15 on Apr 13, 2008 11:59 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

It's hard to believe
Boylan is still using substitution powers to discipline his players at this point in the season.
The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 8:11 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

just like I said earlier
after BG made that behind-the-back pass, he wasn't seen until the start of the 4th.  It wasn't like they were making a comeback in the 3rd, so there was no logical excuse.  What is the point of pulling and yanking players NOW?

I'll be so glad when this season is over with so this idiot Boylan can be gone.

by NormVanBeer on Apr 14, 2008 8:22 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh how I hate watching Duhon
That was brutal. A guy who can't shoot in a half-court offense that moves the ball around until someone gets an open shot doesn't fit, and he's even more worthless with Noah, Thomas, and Sefolosha handling the ball in transition. And Duhon opened up some 2 guard time for Hinrich!

Last night featured some classic head-on-a-swivel-cuz-Noc-lost-his-man defense as well.

Stephen Curry is the lowpost answer!

by hscs on Apr 14, 2008 8:05 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Duhon doesn't look for a shot
When BG plays point he initiates the offense and then is curling around screens looking to move against the ball flow direction to get into position to take a pass for an open shot.  When Duhon initiates he curls off and isn't looking to be in a position for a shot.  He merely gets into a position to catch a pass and feed it back around the perimeter.  Your guards must be able to shoot the basketball whenever it touches their hands for a set shot.
The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which is why
he tees me off like nobody else on this squad.  How can you reach this stage in your career and not understand the part of playing point that burning a sagging defender plays?  You've got to be dangerous at all times out there.  

by California Al on Apr 14, 2008 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's a lot like Houston
When they can't get 40% shooting from their PG position they lose games.

Guards have to be able to shoot between 40 and 45 percent from the field.  They must be able to hit at least 35 to 40 percent of their three point FG attempts.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Noc
lucky me, I was at the game. Better seats than usual though, which made it somewhat worthwhile.

You're right about Noc, he was losing everyone, and when it wasn't an open three it was him lunging past a fake-and-drive Rashard Lewis. At least he was hitting threes to keep his overall contribution, er, competent.

I can't wait until Paxson reminds Bryan Colangelo that he scouted Noc in 2004 and therefore is desperate to trade for him!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

time for new money owner
I think its time for the east to go the way of the west.  Its time for our chicago teams to get rid of these crappy old owners and get in some people who actually care about the sports.  An owner (or whatever he is, chairman) shouldn't be in charge of both a baseball team and a basketball team.  I think the bulls are missing little things that a new owner would be able to see.  For instance a new athelitc weight training department.  Why is it the bulls can never get anyone in shape?  Always giving excuses that its the players job to get in shape.  I know part of it is on them, but come on!  Push these guys! The young guys need guidance.  I want new management on the bulls!

by serbstream on Apr 14, 2008 9:56 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

What's more likely?
New ownership or the chances that 80% of the roster players are crafted out of the mold of Nick "I'm am so f'n lucky to play baseball I will lift weights with beer mugs" Swisher?

It's the old and tired ownership trend vs the new and hawtness style represented by the Cubans and Sarvers.

Honestly, even corporate America sees the cost benefits of providing health club memberships to their employees.  Jerry's a tax guy and even he doesn't see it?

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

come on
you guys are being a little extreme.  Nobody was mentioning lack of a weight training program the past 3 years when this team made the playoffs.  I don't know, how about getting some actual TALENT?  You think that might help??

As much as I think he's worthless, Aaron Gray being fat and out of shape had little to nothing to do with how bad this team was this season.

by NormVanBeer on Apr 14, 2008 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like that this 'Aaron Gray is a fatso' train
is gaining momentum, but you're right it's not the biggest deal.

The bigger deal is that the talent isn't that good, so the Bulls need to have other advantages like 'coaching', and 'development'. But that's where they are, unless lady lottery smiles upon us.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that was just one example
But every year we lose post talent because we can either not get them in shape or bulk them up to compete.  My prime example is when elton brand left for the clippers, he was way more in shape then he was when he was with the bulls.  But this is besides the point.  I could see, in the way the team played this season, that they did not like the organization they were playing for.  I just think its time to oust these owners, and get in some people who aren't happy with the status quo.  Some people who care for the team and aren't there to take advantage of the chicago die hard fans.  Just because we fill the seats doesn't mean they can sit back and rake in the dough.  Thanks for listening

by serbstream on Apr 14, 2008 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that was the knock on Brand
out of college, was that he was fat and doughy...so did you expect him to totally transform in his 2 seasons with the Bulls?  It's called natural progression.  Of course he was going to trim down sooner or later (from around 265 to 254).  It just happened to be when he got with the Clips.  If he would've stuck around Chicago long enough I'm sure he would've lost weight.

Don't you remember seeing Eddy lose all that weight?  Of course since being in NY he's gained it all back (and then some) but he lost a grip of weight over that one summer.

by NormVanBeer on Apr 14, 2008 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I feel kinda bad for Eddy
I believe it was the toxic environment in New York more than anything that caused him to gain all that weight. he would have been better off just taking the blood test and staying here.

by RogersPark Kris on Apr 14, 2008 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He couldn't take the blood test
even if it was the best thing to do for Eddy Curry.

Curry took a position for a NBPA and people in general.  A DNA test would have established a compromising principle for future players.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know if I'd go quite so far
as to say Curry was making a magnanimous gesture on behalf of working men and women everywhere.

There were a lot of issues around his unwillingness to take the test, and I don't know if we'll ever get the whole story.

My opinion is that he liked what he was hearing from Isiah more than he was hearing from Paxson and (especially) Skiles, and decided he'd rather play for Isiah in New York than Skiles in Chicago.

by alec on Apr 14, 2008 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

As I understand it
the test wouldn't have actually determined if he's had the serious heart condition.  It would have only determined if he had a genetic predisposition to the condition.

Basically, it's the same sort of difference between test that shows you may be likely, based on your genes, to get cancer and a test that shows you actually have cancer.  

Some of this has faded from my memory banks, but my recollection is that two noted doctors (including the guy who told Reggie Lewis he shouldn't be playing) actually looked at his heart and cleared him to play.

Thus, the situation for Curry was this. He had two noted doctors look at him and say his heart wasn't abnormally enlarged and he was fine to play.

He had a third doctor say in effect "ok, but you could also get this DNA test to see if you're genetically predisposed to having this condition which you've been told you don't actually have".

The Bulls made their contract offer conditional upon passing the test and showing he wasn't "predisposed" to the condition, not whether he had the condition or not.  

Since I'm on my soapbox, one thing I always thought was incredibly lame was that if he turned out predisposed, then he got a parting gift of, effectively, his the present value of his "qualifying offer" amount spread over the course of something like 20 years.  That sounds pretty nice (and was talked up as a "compassionate" solution by guys like KC) but the reality was it was little more than what he could have had anyway since they'd already tendered him that amount.  

That is, the Bulls made themselves sound compassionate by offering to spread the money they'd already agreed to pay in one year over 20 or 30 years with interest.

That, of course, made the number sound bigger, but probably reduced the real value.  It's a little more irritating in the context of them paying Jay Williams significantly more than that (they basically let him collect his salary for two years) when he wrecked himself.  I mean, I don't really begrudge the Bulls doing that for Williams (it was good PR on their part in that case as well), but it's pretty hard for me to justify giving more to a guy (Williams) who wrecked his career in an act of stupidity after having done nothing in one season for you than to a guy (Curry), who you're forcing to take a test that doesn't actually prove he's sick, and who (despite obvious flaws) had actually helped you win games on the court.

The whole affair left a pretty bad taste in my mouth.

by Sports2 on Apr 14, 2008 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eddy's contract is uninsured
I assume the Bulls were aware of that possibility, and the DNA test mandate wasn't a total farce.
Stephen Curry is the lowpost answer!

by hscs on Apr 14, 2008 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget the insurance
Curry's contract is not insured because of the heart concerns.  As the contract is guaranteed, that is another source of legitimate concern for the Bulls.  

Also, if I recall correctly, Paxson was quoted as saying he would feel responsible if he were to offer a contract to Curry to continue playing a game that could eventually kill him.  If those sentiments were true, that's all we need to know about Curry, the DNA test, and the subsequent trade to New York.  Of course, I'm not sure how to rectify that with the fact that the Bulls still participated in getting Curry an longer contract to play in the NBA.

by snley on Apr 14, 2008 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good point.
That whole thing was so messed up on so many levels.

by alec on Apr 14, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

As you said, it's been a while,
but I believe part of the Bulls' offer was that even if Eddie 'failed' the genetic predispo test, the Bulls would agree to pay him the full contract value, just spread out over more years.

Maybe my memory is getting tricked by the "compassion" you mention of the Bulls offer--and their offer really was just a lowball spread over time.

Perhaps someone has a better recollection.

by alec on Apr 14, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I remember
like you. The Bulls paid the full contract no matter the results of the test.

by sue369 on Apr 14, 2008 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

for what it's worth
I remember it the way sports2 laid it out: it was a significant amount of money for 50 years, but it wasn't the total value of a contract.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

iirc
it was 400k per year for 20 years.  
Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 14, 2008 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

$400k/yr for 50 years
which, after discounting for inflation and considering what you'd get as a return by simply investing all or most of what he was already due via the QO, really isn't much.

Shit, at the rate we're going we'll be lucky if $400k gets you a happy meal in 50 years.

I also wonder what happens if her actually were to die before the  50 years are up.  In some annuity/pension situations death ends the obligation, so his wife, kids, or heirs in general are screwed.  In others you pass on the annuity the same way you pass on most stuff.  

In general, there's lots of questions about it. I certainly don't blame the Bulls for not paying a guy they didn't want to take a chance on, but there was a lot of sketchiness to the whole affair.  

by Sports2 on Apr 14, 2008 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

isn't much?
you're kidding, right?
Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 14, 2008 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mr. Richie Rich over here
has no idea what's going on.
BAB Tyrus Love-Meter -- 8 - Deciding whether next season is going to be similar to Kemp 95-96 or better.

by cubbybear on Apr 14, 2008 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow...
What planet do you live on?

by Khalid El-Amin on Apr 14, 2008 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The planet where I have a Masters in Economics
and you don't :P

But seriously speaking, yeah, for all of us mortals it's a lot.  But we're not talking about the every day world.  In the context of the choice of making $60M over the next six years (and then follow on contracts of probably that might yield as much or more), then yeah, it's a huge drop off.  

Something like $60M over the next six years, even if you spend 2/3rds immediately and only invest 1/3 of it (conservatively), would net you something like $136M (in terms of todays dollars) over the course of 50 years.

On the other hand, a stream of 400k per year for 50 years probably gets you a bit less than $10M in today's dollars.  The odds are very much on the side of having money now vs. having money later.

by Sports2 on Apr 14, 2008 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah but...
They didn't HAVE to give him anything.

by Khalid El-Amin on Apr 14, 2008 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's true
but it would've been bad (or, even worse) P.R.

Sort of like the Jay Williams 'buyout'.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also...
Maybe somebody already mentioned this but I think in NY it was against the law for an employer to make an employee take the DNA test they were asking for.

Every team in the NBA would have made Curry take that test, but only the Knicks could get away with NOT asking him to take it (because of the right to work laws at the time).

In that sense his (Eddy's) hands were tied and he had no leverage to ask the Bulls for anything. Therefore It's ludicrous to think that 400k a year is an insulting offer.

Still, I'm glad we traded him.

by Khalid El-Amin on Apr 14, 2008 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes and no
Certainly it's true they didn't "have" the offer him anything, but like Matt said, it would have been not particularly good PR to tell him to get bent.

All that stuff is debatable. My problem is largely that the oversold their beneficence in a major way.  Politicans are the only sorts of people who act like $20M payable in installments over 50 years is anything close to $20M today, which is the impression the Bulls gave.

Back to the bigger point of Curry, the flip side of all of this is that Curry could well have taken and passed the test and would have remained a Bulls.  Wonder how we would have done with him and the triumvirate of AD, Chandler and Curry?

I like Noah and Thomas better than Curry in the abstract, but they both seem pretty far away.  

If we'd had Curry and AD the Bulls could have used Chandler quite a bit more effectively, and they probably would have been better two years ago.  Would they have brought in Wallace?  

On the other hand, Chandler and Skiles might have killed each other and Curry might have gotten fat.  We'll clearly never know.

by Sports2 on Apr 15, 2008 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

$20 mil for doing nothing
is still $20 million dollars.
Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 15, 2008 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, it's not :)
It's something just south of $4M (coincidentally, about what Curry already had available to him via the QO tender). If you take that money, average a 10% return (a reasonable assumption given historical market returns), and subtract $400k each year, you have the "deal" they were giving Curry.

The initial $4M grows enough via interest to give back $400k every year. That is, they weren't promising him anything at all beyond what they'd already offered him.

by Sports2 on Apr 15, 2008 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fine but...
Isn't a QO still contingent upon a player passing a physical?

by Khalid El-Amin on Apr 15, 2008 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

it was 50 years
Paxson, speaking during the team's media day, told reporters the Bulls had offered Curry $400,000 annually for the next 50 years if he failed the genetic test.

"So he would have an above-average lifestyle that would put him in a position that most other people aren't in," Paxson said. "Our intention through that whole process was to show him that we did care about him and that we were concerned about his well-being."

by NormVanBeer on Apr 14, 2008 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

even before taxes
that's not even half of his current deal.  I don't know, all that stuff Paxson was spewing was sounding like a crock of garbage to me.  It was more like "you better be glad you're getting anything" type of deal.

by NormVanBeer on Apr 14, 2008 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

in retrospect
seems like trading him was one of Paxson's better moves.  He'd be another of the "almost, sorta, maybe someday, but definitely in his own mind all-stars" on this squad.
Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 14, 2008 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

in defense of my guy. . .
Aaron Gray looks like he's lost weight. . .he just needs to start weight lifting big time.  With the right training and execution I think his height could really help us next year.  Granted it'd take a miracle for this guy to go from third option to starter, but he could at least be the best third option in the league.
I want to braid Noah's hair or at least give him a headband.

by AGBallinisaHabit on Apr 14, 2008 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i hope he succeeds
I like his moves around the basket.  Something we haven't seen in a while on the bulls.  Hopefully he and Gooden can work each other in practices.

by serbstream on Apr 14, 2008 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Watch Gray out there some time.
He looks at one foot, lifts it, moves it over, puts it down...looks at the other foot, lifts it, moves it over, puts it down.  Looks back at the first foot....

by alec on Apr 14, 2008 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

not really, he's GAINED
Gray, a legitimate 7-footer, is listed at 270 pounds but admitted he's heavier than what he played at while in college at Pittsburgh.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-080413-chicago-bulls-shooting-per centage,1,758796.story

by NormVanBeer on Apr 14, 2008 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

typical player development from the Bulls
"We want you to get better at basketball, have an incredible level of physical fitness, and be a leader of men (grown men). If you need any guidance, don't be afraid to go fuck yourself."
Stephen Curry is the lowpost answer!

by hscs on Apr 14, 2008 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you forgot the clause
that says:  "we'll make sure to tell the media scrum of all your deficiencies and how it's really your fault."

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No amount of weight lifting or weight cutting
is going to dramatically alter Gray's quickness.  He's just a big, slooowww, lummox of a guy.  There are plenty of gawky, tall, thin, slow guys, too.  It's not his body fat; it's his body.

by alec on Apr 14, 2008 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not true
I made the point months ago that Gray would look quite a bit better at 255lbs than 275lb.

There are plenty of thin slow guys, but those particular thing slower guys will still be a little less slow if they lose more weight and get in generally better shape.  Your body might put you in a given range, but what you do with it changes where you are on that path.  

Curry's a good example.  He was an obviously better player at 280lbs than he has been at 300lbs.

If you loose weight while still training your muscles, you're going to be in better shape.  When I weighed 210+ I was a hell of a lot slower than I am at the 160 I currently weigh.  And oddly, because I actually work at it, I'm physically stronger too.

by Sports2 on Apr 14, 2008 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If he loses the weight
then all the better for him.  If he doesn't then he is probably one year and out.  It is pretty much up to him this summer on if he wants to keep sitting on an NBA bench or not.  

by cranscape on Apr 14, 2008 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

he does have a guaranteed deal next season
because Paxson is so nice.

It's cheap however, and it's not like the Bulls haven't eaten contracts before (yes it's true, that dastardly cheap chairman).

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He does?
Is that the norm?  I seem to remember a lot of forgettable players disappear from the league after their first year.  Do they normally just buy them all out then?  Meh.  I don't really care.  I don't see a guy who can't keep his weight under control lasting very long with a new coach when we have other guys ready to go in that position.  And likely we'll get another center in the off season I'd hope.  I don't hate Gray, but its really stupid to make it into the NBA and then not keep yourself in any kind of good condition.  Especially when you have slowness issues to begin with.  

Noah/NewGuy/Gooden/Gray

by cranscape on Apr 14, 2008 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

it is rare for 2nd round picks
to get 2-years fully guaranteed. But Gray got it.

For instance, Duhon had only a 1 year deal with no team option, and that made him a restricted FA and as we know, meant a huge raise. So if you think the guy's actually going to be decent, signing him for 2 years at the minimum is a clever way to get some cost certaincy.

As little as I think of Gray's 'potential', he's shown at least to be worth a minimum deal as a 12th-15th man, so I don't think Paxson made a bad gamble or anything.

I wouldn't be shocked if there was some agent hanky-panky in that process as well.

fyi: JamesOn Curry has a partially-guaranteed contract, and Nichols is a FA after the season.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Apr 14, 2008 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

More than weight
If the Bulls film team is still employed or if Gray just has a $500 media operation of his own, he should pick up some new practices from his mistakes in the post.  He handles the ball around his waist on post moves.  This puts the ball in play for 6' guards to come steal it.  He needs to get the ball up around his shoulders so the defenders are hacking away in areas where it is more difficult to force a turnover without first causing a foul.
The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's because he can only do
one thing at a time...and when he's watching his feet he forgets about the ball.

by alec on Apr 14, 2008 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

great post re: new ownership
that would be awesome.  

anyone have any clue how long the Chairman plans on keeping the team?  is there like a "Mini-Chairman" a la Hank Steinbrenner waiting in the wings to take over when he retires or dies?  or will he sell before then?

by Orlando Woolridge on Apr 14, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My Problem with Reinsdorf
is that he runs this team like it is in a small market.  At some point he has to suck it up and go over the salary cap.  We are the third largest market in the league, and we should act like it.

by jpchi on Apr 14, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think he'd cap out and pay the tax
if the market conditions existed to help the organization generate something close to a revenue peg to the cost risk.

He paid Money $30+ mil per season twice.  The organization made a 30+ mil profit last year according to Forbes estimates.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

they're over the cap
but not over the luxury tax threshold.
Don't tell anybody, but here's hoping TT puts it all together.

by bullshooter on Apr 14, 2008 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My bad
Still, we're in the bottom ten in total salary and the two larger markets (LAL and NY) are 10+ million above us.  And, according to the Memphis GM, they didn't do the deal for Gasol because Memphis wasn't getting a surefire starter back and because the Bulls were unwilling to go over the salary cap.

by jpchi on Apr 14, 2008 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Enough to fly to Argentina
to negotiate with him.  They do have good weather down there in July.
The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Apr 14, 2008 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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