Hollinger's Plan to Rebuild the Bulls

by JSlakov on Feb 28, 2008 12:53 PM CST Comment 89 comments

The Rebuilding of the Bulls is one of John Hollinger's 10 stories to watch for the rest of the season. Here's what he said:

here

"The rebuilding of the Bulls

Speaking of GMs under fire, John Paxson of the Bulls is taking some serious heat for failing to pull the trigger on a big deal a year ago and then making a deadline-deal this month for Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden.

For the moment that trade has left the Bulls with a weird roster. They have five guards, two small forwards and not enough big guys. And the three bigs they do have (Joakim Noah, Tyrus Thomas, Drew Gooden) are all athletic-roamer types who need an enforcer beside them to be most effective.

So in a weird way, this is a crucial two months for Paxson. It goes without saying that he can't be finished trading, so this summer is likely to be huge for him -- especially considering that both Ben Gordon and Luol Deng are restricted free agents and Chris Duhon is unrestricted.

In the mean time, he has to figure out which of his five guards, two small forwards and three power forwards to keep, and which ones to trade away.

At least Paxson can enjoy his new players' strong start. In the admittedly small three-game sample since the deal, Hughes looks a lot more like the vintage guard of the Washington years, averaging 18.7 points and getting five foul shots a game. One wonders how long they'll keep Thabo Sefolosha in the starting lineup when Hughes is clearly outplaying him.

In fact, a Hughes-Gordon pairing might be Chicago's best option going forward. Hughes can be the de facto point man while defending the opposing shooting guard, sparing Gordon the worst of the matchups. Sefolosha could then come off the pine at both spots.

Of course, the elephant in this discussion is Kirk Hinrich, whose struggles have been a key reason behind the Bulls' fade this season. He was yanked just 36 seconds into the third quarter Wednesday night and didn't return, but trading his contract will be very difficult unless he plays better. Nonetheless, including him and one of the young bigs (most likely Thomas) in a swap for a stronger, veteran presence in the paint might be Chicago's most logical path to improvement.

Looking ahead, Bulls fans can still be optimistic about such an arrangement. A Hughes-Gordon-Sefolosha backcourt can get things done. Deng still has plenty of upside at the 3, and bringing Andres Nocioni off the pine as a scoring force at both forward spots is a weapon few other teams can match. Then you have a frontcourt of Noah and the mystery guy in the trade, plus the still-young and reasonably productive Gooden as the spare big.

All this, of course, is subject to what happens over the next two months, which is why I'll be watching Chicago so closely. The Bulls' season has been a disaster, but they still have a young roster with a lot of nice pieces, and if Paxson makes the right deals, he might be able to salvage this group."

I know some Tyrus Thomas lovers won't like this. What say you?

FanPosts are user-created posts from the BlogABull community, and are to be treated as the opinions and views of that particular user, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.

0 recs | Comment 89 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Not sure if

Hinrich fans will also be appreciative of this...

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Feb 28, 2008 1:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

It's a pretty flimsy 'plan'

package Hinrich and Thomas for "a stronger, veteran presence in the paint"

Who the hell is that going to be? Instead of 'stronger' and 'veteran', just say 'much better than Thomas or Noah or Gooden'. If that's the criteria I don't see anyone available. Hollinger's criteria seems to be saying someonen like Jermaine O'Neal. yuck. Might as well send an APB to the retirement homes for Antonio Davis.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 28, 2008 1:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

he does have a point that

trading Hinrich may be the better option than Gordon. His cap figure (due to any sign/trade with Gordon including a BYC issue) will be worth far more, and in theory then get a more expensive (better) player in return without having to package too much.

I'm still thinking about how good of a player a Hinrich/Tyrus package would fetch to be worthwhile.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 28, 2008 1:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

IF you can find a trade partner,

he may be the better option. Or if Gordon $$$ needs are out of whack, he may be better to move.

It'd be sweet if Hughes plays well enough to get traded, but I know I'm dreaming big time on that.

Hinrich plus Tyrus (or Thabo or Joakim or Deng) would have to be something special in return.

by marionette on Feb 28, 2008 3:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agree - who out there will really make us better?

Hollinger has a point that we have too many good players for the minutes available. We could put together a nice package - - but for whom? Gasol may have been the most helpful but that train has left the station. Marion is available but we already have TT. O'Neal's knees are probably saw dust. Who is out there is really good enough to help us. Z-Bo makes us worse, not better. I doubt Riles would consider trading Wade. I honestly cannot name someone who would be remotely available who could help us.

by chgobr on Feb 28, 2008 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Its in 2009

when guys like wade and lebron will be able to opt out of contracts right? If that is the case then i could see us NEXT year doing a bunch of trades to open up some cap space so we can sign a big gun, but yea i dont see much use of trading guys this offseason.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Feb 28, 2008 3:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm talking a trade this summer, not free agency

Miami needs multiple players to rebuild quickly. Maybe Riles is desperate enough to take some combo of Gordon/Gooden/Hinrich/TT or for Wade? This gives Miami a team next year to build around. It gives us a true star in Wade. Just an idea!

by chgobr on Feb 28, 2008 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Isnt Miami

Trying to build around Wade. I think Riley has already made the impression that They want Wade and marion to be the Batman and Robin of this era, and maybe they will want someone like kirk hinrich to be the Paxson or Kerr of that group, but i dont see what they can possibly offer, or any team for that matter. Most players worth having, are in a position where they dont want to leave. Last offseason there was more disgruntled players that were also worth having (Garnett, Kobe, Gasol) but going into this offseason there doesnt seem to be much unless you want to do another trade with someone like New York.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Feb 28, 2008 4:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

I could see Riley leaving Miami taking a big dump on the door step on the way out before trading Wade and taking on a "real" rebuilding project.

They want to rebuild fast so that Wade doesn't leave. (supposedly)

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 28, 2008 4:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gordon over Hinrich any day of the week

I'd rather trade Hinrich over Gordon any day of the week. I've been critical of Gordon but he clearly brings more to the Bulls - especially with the current roster - than Hinrich does or can. It's becoming more and more obvious that Hinrich can't play the point effectively. Sure, he can play at the 1 but he does not bring you what you expect from a 1. So he's a small 2 or a small combo. Again, his greatest virtue has been his ability to guard 2 guards. That's not what I'm looking for out of my starting PG. If it is what it is, Gordon is clearly the preference. It's also not as bad of a deal having to overpay Gordon if he manages to return to the starting lineup as the result of getting rid of Kirk's contract.

by messwiththebull on Feb 29, 2008 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This will come off as sour grapes...

...or Thomas fanboiism or whatever, but I've been unimpressed with Hollinger's scouting/GM'ing thoughts. He has great ideas/tools for statistical evaluation, however.

Give me Hollinger's stats and Thorpe's scouting (for young guys), and I think I'll have about as good of a "whole picture" outlook as one could get from two sources.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 28, 2008 1:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I agree wtih you wholeheartedly

Hollinger's stats are nice, but I agree his scouting/interpretations aren't always as good as the stats he's calculated....

by majoyenrac on Feb 28, 2008 1:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nice to see Hollinger will

"be watching Chicago so closely over the next two months". It is, like, his job after all. If he'd been watching the last couple months, he'd know that to be "severely out-playing Sefolosha" would require being at an all-star level. I don't think he'd anoint Hughes with a spot there yet. Or ever, since he FG% figures into the PER, I believe.

by marionette on Feb 28, 2008 2:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Right on there

I think Hollinger sees Sefalosha's stats mor ethan his play and makes that kind of blanket statement.

Sefalosha looks great out there, has really been improving...unfortunately he'll make a few silly turnovers--primarily in INCONSEQUENTIAL moments that have hindered his stats....

Plus as a ball deflector, rebound tapper, Sef ain't getting all the "stats" that Hollinger would like....

And let's face it Sef stunk earlier this year when he had no confidence.

Watching Thabo of late, I like what I see, he might also make a loss of Deng palpable, even as an additional backup, but I like him actually at the 2 spot now and maybe eventually at the 1 spot when he shores up his tendency to make several stupid turnovers in a row after playing 10 solid minutes turnover free....

by majoyenrac on Feb 28, 2008 3:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hyperbole Alert!

Thabo has played good defense and all and has even had a few excellent games in there, but lets not overblow his performances. He is not right below all-star level by any metric.

by Kemp on Feb 28, 2008 4:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I hope you

weren't referring to me....I never thought Thabo is just below all star level, but he's getting to be a better than avg SG before our eyes---although he still needs a little more time to grow.

by majoyenrac on Feb 29, 2008 7:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Although that's not exactly what I said,

I stand by my statement, nonetheless. For Hollinger to state that Hughes "is clearly outplaying him" after only three games (and before the Hughes "breakout" vs IND) indicates that he simply hasn't been paying attention.

by marionette on Feb 29, 2008 4:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

wow...

... "to be "severely out-playing Sefolosha" would require being at an all-star level..."!!

Let's not get carried away guys!!!

by Vangelis on Mar 1, 2008 1:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He's just like all the ESPN guys

that have to come up with some meanderings by a deadline. So they're always easy, vague statements, like "you have to trade for a post presence."

by marionette on Feb 28, 2008 2:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hollinger's ideas have been off

on the Bulls since Paxson didn't trade for Gasol. Hollinger's good when he has the time to actually work through what the stats mean and combined it with game tape. His annual player scouting reports are solid.

Hollinger has his limitations, but he's better than 95% of the crap that is the national media covering the NBA.

by Scotter on Feb 28, 2008 4:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

anyway

now that we're past my HTML suckiness, my thoughts are pretty much what Matt said. This idea sounds great if theres actually anyone good available for the price of Hinrich and Tyrus Thomas but as is I doubt we could even get Zach Randolph for that package, let alone someone who would actually help the team.

by JSlakov on Feb 28, 2008 1:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I've gotta believe

You could get Zach Randolph for a deep dish pizza after watching that horrible play float around the internets the past couple days.

by Old Skool Sloan on Feb 28, 2008 1:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hinrich/Deng

for Marion.

by Kemp on Feb 28, 2008 2:07 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Does this really make us better?

Marion is 30 years old. We already have a 21 y.o. TT who could be worse, as good or even better than Marion. Deng is 22 and he has upside. Marion has played with one of the great point guards of all time. His upside is limited. I think we need a dominate big man, but I don't believe one who can help us is presently available playing in the NBA. Maybe Hinrich/Gooden for Marion and Miami's draft pick at least gives us a chance to draft a special player. I'm not thrilled with giving up Gooden. You would have to have a sure bet in the draft to make that trade.

by chgobr on Feb 28, 2008 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It does

make us better; Marion, while 30, is in excellent shape and is a first-team caliber defender. He rebounds, he shoots at a high percentage, and knocks down threes and free throws. Deng at best will be a marginal defender and a decent slasher. His shot is much prettier than Marion's, however that is where his advantages largely end.

I am sure Deng will be a marginal star in this league, 20-6.5 and 50% shooting from the field. But the combination of Marion/Thomas/Noah at the 3-4-5, would allow us to have a fast efficient offense that could also defend. If you combined that with Thabo and Hughes, you could have defensive capabilities at every position and the ability to push the ball. With that lineup you can legitimately mimic the Detroit Pistons of '04, where Paxon failed to with his last experiment.

As for Hinrich/Gooden for Marion and pick, there is a 0% chance that it would be accepted by Miami; they will have a top 5 pick and a guy who gives you 16-10 plus 2 steals and 1.5 blocks for a decent forward and a decent point guard.

by Kemp on Feb 28, 2008 4:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I do think Marion will be available

You make good points. It is going to be an interesting summer. This trade really gives us tremendous options to maneuver. I hope we do the right thing.

by chgobr on Feb 28, 2008 4:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Me too.

I am pretty psyched.

by Kemp on Feb 28, 2008 4:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Doesn't

Marion have the option to opt out at the end of the year? Or am I off on this?

by jpchi on Feb 28, 2008 5:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, but he'd be turning down

$17M to do so. Not likely.

by marionette on Feb 28, 2008 5:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

According to HoopsHype you are correct

He has a player option for $17.18 mil.

by chgobr on Feb 28, 2008 5:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What you ascribe to

Marion/TT/Noah front court is present enough with Deng/TT/Noah. I'm as big a fan of Shawn as you'll find, and I'd keep Deng.

by marionette on Feb 28, 2008 5:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hardly

Deng is not anywhere near the one on one defender nor the helpside defender that Marion is. Nor is he a particularly good finisher, as his moves in midair and around the basket are predictable at best. I like Deng and believe that his pull-up is pretty deadly, but he will never be the defensive player that Marion is nor will he have the lateral skills that Marion does. At most you can say he shares Marion's abilities moving without the ball.

by Kemp on Feb 28, 2008 7:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hardly

Yes, Marion is a better overall player, a better athlete, a more versatile defender, a better rebounder, and a better off ball defender. That's not disputed.

Not let's get to where your wrong. Deng may be predictable, but is he's a good finisher. He made 63% of his shots in the paint, Marion made 67%, but gets a significantly higher % of his shots in the paint assisted on. It's a safe bet that if Deng played in Phoenix his FG% would come close to matching Marion's.

Deng is also all a better one on one defender when healthy. Even this year, his counterpart PER is only 15.5. Marion year after year gives up at least a 17 PER. Or for anecdotal evidence check out the search tools at b-r.com and see what Deng has done to the top SFs in the league over the last three seasons. It's pretty good. I guess I could drop a bunch of links, but you would be better served by discovering these things for yourself. Deng constantly fights guys for position and uses his length to bother guys without fouling.

I also assume that marionette was factoring in many factors besides simply who is the better player right now.

by Scotter on Feb 28, 2008 9:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah.

I was referring to the fact that last year Deng got 10% of his inside shots blocked and this year has gotten 13% blocked, while Marion has gotten 5% and 8% respectively.
Last year they shared the same net defensive rating at -0.5; this year Marion has a net defensive rating of -4.6 while Deng has a +6. Also, Marion has a better foul efficiency rating. Moreover, there is a definite correlation between team Counterpart per and personal counterpart per. Should Gordon be considered a better defender than Kobe Bryant? He did get a better counterpart per last year; as did Wallace over Camby and Hinrich over Devin Harris. This isn't to say that the stat is irrelevant, but it isn't the best way to decide one on one defense.

And even if Deng is a better one on one defender, which I am willing to concede as a possibility, there is no question that Marion isn't particularly far behind. So maybe you are right and by the time Deng reaches his prime he is a better player than Marion; this does not prove to me that it wouldn't be a good move to get Marion, if the Bulls want to win now, which I assume they do, they could compete for the Eastern birth with this trade and could skip the waiting game.

Lastly, while I appreciate your willingness to debate and your obvious wealth of knowledge, I don't appreciate the condescension which is undeserved.

by Kemp on Feb 29, 2008 3:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's straightforward guys...

"... Marion is a better overall player, a better athlete, a more versatile defender, a better rebounder, and a better off ball defender..."

There is no doubt about this. Lu unfortunately is over-rated. I would definitely take a proven all-star over him...

by Vangelis on Mar 1, 2008 1:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree wtih you chgobr

I think we already have an athletic wing who fits a Marion type of role....Tyrus Thomas could be "the next Marion" someday. Tyrus has even better defensive tendencies and at least better form than Marion...

I hope someday he becomes the next Shawn Marion.

I don't know what adding Marion to our team does, just clogs us even mroe with 3/4 tweeners.

We should try to get a PF/C instead of a SF/PF....preferrably one with a solid offensive game....

I know folks'll say, but who can you get.....surely if we do a sign and trade for salaries in the $17.2M range, we can get a lot of people, especially if we dangle somewhat redundant Gordon and to a lesser extent Deng in a trade deal.

Marion wouldn't be a material upgrade over Deng/Noc anyway.....he'd be an upgrade over both of them individually, but at the cost, I don't think it's worth it.

by majoyenrac on Feb 29, 2008 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If you were

to move Hinrich and Deng for Marion, the cost issues would be barely discernable.

by Kemp on Feb 29, 2008 2:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Who is our 3rd power forward?

Noah's a center. Gray gets no mention? What about Cedric Simmons and Shannon Brown?

All that talk and no mention of Jim Boylan? What's his PER?

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 28, 2008 4:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Noah

can play the high post and is much better at guarding people on the outside than thomas somehow.
I wouldn't say he is a center but he has shown that he can play out there with the big boys. Going forward, I would not feel comfortable putting noah/gooden all night on dwight howard or some other centers in the league.

He gives you more flexibility moving forward than tyrus does but pretty seemingly less potential.

I wouldnt mind a hughes for kirilenko type swap. That be pretty nice.

by Sambossanova on Feb 28, 2008 5:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That would be lovely! :)

But I think you'd have to lobotomize their GM first...

by Bass on Feb 29, 2008 6:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

does anyone know

the bulls salary cap situation and how much room well have after the season?

by Jbasic89 on Feb 28, 2008 4:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

What would it take to get Elton Brand back?

is he the answer? He is the only player that is not untouchable that is a better scorer than Gooden that I can think of. The funny thing is unless the Bull's get lucky in the draft; they will probably pick another marginal defensive big. Yuck.

by Jesse07 on Feb 28, 2008 7:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

E Brand may be one the players the Bulls

go after. He is someone who could give us the lift we need. Good suggestion!

by chgobr on Feb 28, 2008 8:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I was thinking the same thing

I'm not sure what the rules are as far as trading for players that can opt out of their contracts, but if Brand wants out of L.A., Pax should be interested. The Clippers would get something for him rather than letting him walk, but then again, it IS the Clippers.

by Rodmaniac on Feb 28, 2008 11:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But

don't his points in the post primarily come from either offensive put-backs or face-up jumpers? Anyone have any stats on this?

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Feb 29, 2008 9:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Check out Hot Spots on NBA.com

Usually the Hot Spots page is good for reference but for whatever reason, Brand doesn't come up on the Clips roster. May be because he's been inactive.

by paxson43 on Feb 29, 2008 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Who cares

How he gets his points, he gets them consistently, and grabs boards, and is awesome. Pre Injury he was in the MVP running, he can play the low post, but will keep defenses more than honest.

I'd love to see Brand on our team, he would be an ideal fit.

Trade Gordon-Deng-Tyrus Thomas for Elton Brand and some schmuck.

Sure we lose on T2, but we are solid with this lineup:

Hinrich/Hughes/Draft Pick/Clippers schmuck
Hughes/Sefalosha
Nocioni/Sefalosha
Brand/Gooden
Noah/Gooden/Gray.

Even better would be if we could pawn off Hinrich and maybe Duhon via another sign-trade and keep Gordon...

by majoyenrac on Feb 29, 2008 12:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This is the weirdest line:

"In the mean time, he has to figure out which of his five guards, two small forwards and three power forwards to keep, and which ones to trade away."

As if there's something inherently wrong with that particular combination of that many players at each position.

For a professional journalist, he doesn't do a very good job of expressing his ideas. I believe that what he's trying to address is fit, and perhaps future starter/playing time controversies.

But this current combination of Bulls will not lack for chemistry if they win. They're a long way away from a Marion-Stoudamire vibe. So as long as they can solve the minute distribution, they'll be fine. And I think this is possible.

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Feb 28, 2008 9:24 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Does

anyone know if the Lakers are going to be shopping one of their bigs this summer (Odom)? It seems they have 3 better than average bigs and one would likely be on the way out.

by jpchi on Feb 29, 2008 8:37 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

My guess: too soon to tell

It seems like a lot of people think that the Lakers are the odds-on favorites to win the title this year, so I think the Lakers are going to use the playoffs to determine what to do with their roster.

Obviously, if they win the championship, it would be silly of them to move any of their bigs this summer. If they fall short and think they're one piece off though, Odom would likely be the player (that they're willing to even consider trading) that could get the most value in a trade.

by paxson43 on Feb 29, 2008 8:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

only Bulls fans think that way

we have too many good players! lets trade one and let a lesser guy take over!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 29, 2008 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not

saying that we should go after him, I'm just trying to think of other big men that would be available this summer. And if the list of true big men drops from Brand to Odom, then you would probably have to part with more than you want to since its a shallow market.

by jpchi on Feb 29, 2008 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it was responding to your reasoning

as to why the Lakers would deal him. There are reasons, but having too many productive bigs isn't really one.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 29, 2008 10:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

and I seriously doubt the Lakers would trade anyone on their roster....maybe trade Fisher for another backup PG....

They are stacked with talent and have to plan on both Farmar and of course Bynum improving.

I expect Farmar might be their main starter next season.....Fisher will be a spot up shooter off the bench....

But I still say odds are they stay in tact, even if they don't win this year, because Bynum will improve and the Lakers should benefit with more time for their current staff.

Odom looks awesome in their system too especially with all their options and height. He's right now the Horace Grant to the Kobe-Gasol tandem, which is better than even anticipated. THe height of the Lakers and the athleticism is ridiculous, they are the best constructed team in the league right now and are still very young and have the best coach to boot.

by majoyenrac on Feb 29, 2008 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

as long as every player needs a modifier

Is Odom really a 'true' big? It's getting to the point where every team in the NBA has a true, proven, pure player at every position but the Bulls.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Feb 29, 2008 10:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

I shouldn't have used "true". I just wanted to separate him and Brand from the discussion over Marion above, thats all.

by jpchi on Feb 29, 2008 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Free Agents in Summer of 2008

ESPN has a list of free agents this summer. There are a lot of good ones.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=2008FreeAgents

There are alot that jump out. I mean everyone here is talking about getting a big but there are a lot of good available 2/3s out there too. I know we're stacked with Hughes and Gordon at the 2, but who knows what kinds of deals Pax can/will swing this summer that may change the situation.

by Coach Van Lier on Feb 29, 2008 11:12 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Odom doesn't solve any problems

for us. We need a true big man that plays inside and defends his position. Odom's natural position is 3 as he has said many times before. I like Phili's Sam Dalembert. I think he would fit in well with a lineup of Gordon, Hughes, Deng, and Gooden.

Question would be if they would really want to trade him. They have the rookie Jason Smith who they seem to like, but they play him at the 4 more than the 5. If they would like to talk, I would offer Kirk,Ty, and a draft pick. I've tried the trade, the money doesn't really work, but this is a guy the bulls should pursue.

Of the other bigs that the bulls should look at, I would say Bogut, Kaman, or Big Al Jefferson. Bulls should look at bigs that like playing big.

by DannyRange on Feb 29, 2008 11:23 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

trade kirk, not tt

kirk and deng for marion would be interesting if marion was to be the 3. the thing i don't like is that TT schooled him when they played Miami. but he is still a good player.

I'd like to keep TT cause he is a game changer.
I wonder what Kirk and Drew Gooden might get us in a trade. those 2 might be considered starters somewhere (possibly even the bulls before tonight over). Mike Dunleavy went to Duke so I hesitate to suggest this, but I think he'd be good on this team. Igoudala is a personal favorite of mine. BG, Hughes, and Igoudala would be a sweet small lineup, but I'm stretching for names...

by Zac23 on Feb 29, 2008 11:46 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Phili will want Tyrus

in any trade that will include big Sam. I don't want to trade him because I think that he will be an above average 3/4 in the near future but you have to give something to get something. This talk of getting Marion for Deng is no good. Marion is a good player, but I'm not givin up Deng for him. Plus he makes big bucks. No thanks on Matrix

by DannyRange on Feb 29, 2008 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Meh, Marion will be expensive

Acquiring Marion at this point would be nearly equivalent to the Ben Wallace signing in 2006. Marion is a little younger and certainly more energenic, but Tyrus is more than capable of being a legit 4 bring Marionesque contributions to the team.

Also, Tyrus is a bargain compared to Marion's 17 mil per contract.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 29, 2008 12:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Riley has some love for Kirk

If I remember correctly, Riley's statements on Kirk were an absolute love fest when the Bulls were dismantling the Heat in last year's playoffs(same for Deng for that matter).

Skiles got results building the team that taskmasters like Riley dream of. So maybe Riles will take Kirk off our hands, who knows.

But Marion? No thanks, for all the reasons enumerated by others above.

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Feb 29, 2008 12:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I really don't think

we need anyone to take Kirk off of our hands. Kirk's a solid player, he just needs to remember to bring it again,a nd I think that's the tactic Boylan is using by benching Kirk.

Kirk had been our stellar captain and basically face of the franchise, he was doing very well for a stretch and now seems lost trying to figure out his role with Hughes....

I think he'll be fine.

I wouldn't veto a trade using Kirk, but I wouldn't say he's a problem.

I don't know necessarily if I want to see Kirk and Wade on the same team....Kirk's a better defender than Wade overall, but those two are fabulous defenders in general, and Kirk can be a nice scorer when he needs to be.

Plus who do we get? I'm not interested in another expensive tweener like Marion, especially for his price....

Maybe we try to make a less splashy trade with Atlanta and grab Marvin Williams, Williams would cost less and he seems to be finally figuring out the NBA game. He's got gobs of athleticism...

Unfortunately I don't know who we trade to Atlanta for him, they don't need Gordon with Johnson, they don't need Tyrus (And i WOULDN'T trade Tyrus to them anyway) because they have Josh Smith.....they actually could probably use Hinrich, but they won't think they could use him with the overrated Bibby....

But another young, solid athlete like Marvin Williams cuold be a nice grab, now that Atlanta has the more NBA ready Horford.

by majoyenrac on Feb 29, 2008 12:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Kirk for Heat 1st pick

The trade would work the way the Bobcats/Warriors trade sending JRich to the Bobcats and the Bobcats 1st round pick(Brandon Wright) to the Warriors. Bobcats had cap space so they absorbed the Jrich contract.

The Heat are in the same position as the Bobcats entering the draft.

Riley probably asks for more than Kirk. Maybe he sends back a contract player Miami would like to find a way to part with.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 29, 2008 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Riley's proven again

With the Shaq trade/steal that he's no idiot.

He'll be askign a lot more than just kirk for a possible #1 or at least #3 draft pick.

Jordan has proven again that he was a good player, but not much of a GM with his Jason Richardson trade....

I doubt Riley makes that move because he'd have to part with other folks with the trade for the draft pick to make it work, and I don't think any trade for their #1 draft pick and Marion would work for Miami to get any bang for the buck. I wouldn't want any other Heat player besides Wade, Marion and potentially Haslem, but Wade and Marion are too good to pool with a #1-3 draft pick for Miami, and Haslem isn't good enough or make enough for us to part with possibly the Kirk/Gordon/Deng (combo of 2 of them) to get the Heat #1-3 pick

by majoyenrac on Feb 29, 2008 1:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Lovefest?

I thought it was all hate. Something about kirk being one of the dirtiest players in the nba, and how he gets away with alot. Although it IS Pat Riley, that godfather looking, superstar life span shortening, "do whatever it takes to win" coach. He probably loves the idea of hinrich being a "dirty" player.

Kirk Hinrich. The Best White American Point Guard in the NBA.

by piccolomair on Feb 29, 2008 12:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He did say that

But I also recall Riley afterwards talkign about how talented Kirk is, and really with Kirk's D, I'm sure Riley would love to have him on the team (at least Kirk's D against anyone not named Diener and Mobley).....

I also know Riley loves Nocioni, but I know Noc and Wade had a spat a few years back, so I doubt that would happen.

by majoyenrac on Feb 29, 2008 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Political

I think Riley has been in the league long enough to know that you cant just simply bad mouth a player, it looks bad. Any compliments he gave kirk, i think they were political reasons rather then genuine reasons. Also, this is sort of a biased comment, but i think kirk CAN guard most guards not taller then 6'5 fairly well. As for Diener, well, i think if kirk was given more time he wouldve shut him down, its not like diener had a field day against him when kirk was dropping 38 huh?

Kirk Hinrich. The Best White American Point Guard in the NBA.

by piccolomair on Feb 29, 2008 2:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

I know Kirk in maybe 80 of 82 games against Diener would ahve a field day against him....I was just being sarcastic.

I watched Dienier quite a bit in college (he like me went to Marquette) and he is much more talented on offense than his minimal reputation would indicate. He's a guy that if he were bigger/had a bigger build, he'd be a better than avg PG, but the fact is he's only maybe 6 foot (I think they list him at 6'1", but I don't buy that), and he's got a slender build....

He never could defend even the smaller guys in college, but his littany of offensive skills in college more than made up for it. In the pros I wouldn't think he'd have many games like he had the other day against us. But I wish he would. He's probably one of the smarter players in his team, as he was a very smart college player.

I think Kirk does a very good job guarding most guards, regardless of their height....this year Kirk seems to get into these "moods" though this year and there have been more than his fair share of Kirk being completely ineffective. Hopefully that does not continue.

by majoyenrac on Feb 29, 2008 3:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

trade Kirk, and our 1st rounder, for the Heat first round pick and whatever else to make the money part work. If it gives the Bulls the chance to get Rose, Mayo or Beasley I think it's their best chance at ever really doing anything special. Riley might want to play Hinrich next to Wade instead of a pick with Wade. Maybe substitute Hinrich with someone else (Deng?). This all depends on a top 3 lottery drawing for me. I like Hinrich and Deng, but just don't see the Bulls going far with them. I guess this season is just disappointing and I want change...and fire Boylan yesterday; TT had better not take a seat in favor of Gooden...ok now I'm rambling...sigh.

by goldengod on Feb 29, 2008 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Go for Arenas

Let Gordon walk and trade Kirk for Arenas. Gil is going to opt out anyways, so give Washington value back and then sign Gil to a big deal. Pair him with Hughes in the back court (worked well before), sign Deng to a reasonable deal, which will now be attainable due to his disappointing season, and keep TT at the 4 and Noah at the 5.

That's an up and down team that will have no problems scoring, and should be decent defensively with length and athleticism. It will take offensive pressure off TT so he can slowly develop a post game (which he definetely can if he puts on 15 lbs). Noah can chase offensive rebounds abound. Have Sefo as the guard off the bench and to play D in crunch time, Noc to chuck threes and Gooden as the big off the bench. I think that's pretty fiscally responsible (if my numbers are right) and an instant contender in the East.

by kig on Feb 29, 2008 12:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

As long as Washington is willing

to give us Arenas for Hinrich, I think we might as well include Noc and Du. Surely, for that talent-haul, they'd ship Antawn our way, too.

by alec on Feb 29, 2008 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You must not have been paying attention

But the Wizards actually played better without Gil until Caron got injured.

He is just a slightly better Gordon. Which still sucks for team chemistry and defense.

by Bass on Feb 29, 2008 2:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Arenas is a good idea

maybe kirk, Du, and a second rounder or noc. Gil, Gordon and Hughes would be good.. Arenas is one of the best in the league and he would be the biggest star here since...

by Zac23 on Feb 29, 2008 9:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gil, Gordon and Hughes?

And people think the perimeter defense has been bad this year.

by marionette on Feb 29, 2008 11:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What's this qualifying offer thing?

Someone said it once about Gordon? What is that?

I really don't think Deng or Gordon's "worth" has gone down that much this year. They'll still make at least what the Bulls offered them last year. They're young enough, and the team was screwed up as a whole enough, that other teams won't hesitate to offer them at least 5/50. They'll probably end up with more.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 29, 2008 1:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Qualifying offer

is the least amount the Bulls can offer them next year. I think Gordon's is about 6 mil, Deng's around 4 or 5 (based on where they were drafted). So they can accept the qualifying offer for next season and then become a fully unrestricted free agent after next year.

Not sure they'll make AT LEAST what they were offered... neither has really played up to the 10+ mil/year level IMO, and there's really only going to be 2 or 3 teams that have enough cap space to offer them that kind of dough. Name one team that will pay an undersized shooting guard with no d and shitty shot selection over 10 mil a year?

by kig on Feb 29, 2008 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Bulls

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 29, 2008 1:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

that's what I'm afraid of. I say, if they're so included to do that, make it Arenas. At least he can dribble, play PG, and has proven to be a legit all-star. I'm afraid with the Gordon/Hughes lineup they're going after now that Pax/Boylan is going to try to turn BG into a poor man's Arenas. I just don't have that kind of confidence in Gordon.

by kig on Feb 29, 2008 1:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Knicks

;)

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 29, 2008 1:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not sure about that.

I put "undersized shooting guard" "no d" "shitty shot selection" and "10 Million a year" into Google, and came up empty. Maybe nobody's willing to do it.

by alec on Feb 29, 2008 2:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

that's because

Nocioni isn't a guard, and makes less than 10 million.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Feb 29, 2008 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gordon needs to flop more!

That's it. Sweat and flop because apparently the muscles don't show that he works hard.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 29, 2008 2:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I like how his shot selection

is the complaint du jour. I know I can't hang on to Gordon's super efficient perimeter shooting in 06-07 forever, but he's still done a good job of getting good looks in lesser seasons.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Feb 29, 2008 2:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd say BG's two passes

to Deng cutting to the basket were the two best passes Deng got all year. Given just the tiniest opportunity, I'd say Ben has acquitted himself quite well. He may not be tricky or overly subtle with the ball, but I thought Boylan paid Ben a nice compliment today when, noting BG's two Deng feeds, he said that sometimes the best pass is the easy pass.

by alec on Feb 29, 2008 2:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs