What a large group of somewhat-above-average ballers we have

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 24, 2008 11:12 PM CST in News Comment 210 comments

I thought Boylan did a decent job in a pretty tough situation managing the new starters, new additions, and lots of new lineup combinations. I thought he made one slip-up in the 2nd half not bringing Tyrus Thomas back quick enough: With Noah out and deciding to go small with Gooden at center, Boylan subbed in Nocioni with a half-minute remaining in the 3rd, Tyrus didn't go back in until there was 6:47 remaining in the game, and with the lead swollen to 92-78.

Of course, he promptly came in and drew a foul. The aforementioned absence preceding that was memorable because Tyrus was playing so well: jumpers, dunks, a nice jump-hook...enough to make the ESPN announcers have their 'I didn't know he could do that' reactions a few times over. He finished with only two fouls, the same two that ended his first stint far too early, and the second straight game where the 2nd foul was on a bad screen. It makes me believe that it's merely bad luck instead of reckless play that are getting him these early fouls, so going forward as a starter (we can hope) it'll be something that can be avoided. Either way it's bad game management by Boylan that Tyrus finished with those two fouls and still managed only 26 minutes, with those final 6 coming after the game had been pretty much decided.

Gooden and Hughes both looked serviceable, but you could see the problems in shot selection that Cavs fans had with their games. Hughes did go to the rim in transition but at least for this game wasn't the slasher he bills himself, his offense came on mostly jumpshots. He made them tonight, but when those don't fall (like they usually don't), his game quickly goes from serviceable to pretty bad, and I'm fine with his situation (behind Hinrich, Thabo, Gordon) until he unleashes some dormant floor game from 3 years ago. Jumpshots were also frequent with Gooden, although you can see he's at least an option for temporary post offense, and had a hell of a follow-finish that Ben Wallace left back in 2004.

The best line of the night: Chris Duhon, DNP-CD! So we got that going for us, and even with those deadweight minutes freed up you can see a logjam in the backcourt, although all had 20-30 minutes tonight. Ben Gordon in particular didn't have a good game, initially not getting shots and eventually just forcing them. It'll be a process to figure out who plays better with whom, especially when Hughes knows the offense enough to run the point. But big kudos to Boylan for at least knowing that there's too much talent to waste some floor time on Duhon.

Lost in the shuffle of the new additions was the continually shaky return of Luol Deng, who still doesn't look altogether, and it's amazing how he seemed an afterthought when on the floor. That said, I'd just get him back in the starting lineup, he's still good enough and it's not like he'll learn some new type of off-the-bench game first, and if he doesn't look good just sub him out and move Thabo to the 3. I thought Nocioni played well tonight, but with some minutes available at the 4 (especially if Gooden has to play some Center, which looks like will happen), might as well keep his minutes as a backup frontcourt player to make room for Thabo, who was great tonight and also (with Tyrus) was off the court a bit too much when that 2nd half was slipping away.

So the Bulls let the game drift and then get too far away from them eventually, getting blizted from the 3-point line and not getting to the free throw line themselves. But the Rockets are a red-hot team and with Yao presented the type of situation (especially with Noah hurt) that meant a lot of Aaron Gray, which is unbefitting of a team that will now like to go small (ish, it's not like Noah/Tyrus/Gooden is the same as tiny-ball) and fast. And entertaining, even in this loss.

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Couldn't agree more..

And the starting line up for your world champion Chicago Bulls. . .

by AGBallinisaHabit on Feb 24, 2008 11:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Things Tyrus can do, should do, and

will eventually do better. Make jump hooks with either hand from the right block. Drive to the basket and get to the line. Make spot up jumpers and jumpers off the dribble. Dribble the length of the floor on the break. Make great passes. He obviously needs to do these things with greater consistency, but he's capable of doing them right now. The past couple of games he's played offense at the right of pace. He's not rushing or trying too hard to make something happen, but is still being aggressive.

Tyrus may not ever average 20+ points per game, but he's very capable of efficiently averaging between 17 to 19 within a year or two, which is what Shawn Kemp did.

by Scotter on Feb 24, 2008 11:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Tyrus

is Shawn Kemp, we just need GP.

by Kemp on Feb 25, 2008 3:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

new team

would have big upset if they won, but did hate to see it fall apart after mostly clsoe game

Bulls do look deeper with athletic talent that can run now, it seems they need to speed up the game and take advantage of that stregnth

agree, Duhon is no longer needed and should not play unless Kirk can't play that game

Gray - I don't think he is good enough in the post to make himself that useful, too slow and too many turnovers / fouls

Deng - huge problem if he doesn't get healthy and play better, he obviously is talented but he is not making impact in the game and Bulls can't pay another player to just be good role player, but I think he has to start if healthy, if hurt then need to rest and heal

G Kirk / Hughes
G Thabo / BG
SF Deng / Noc (Thabo if they go small)
PF Thomas / Gooden / Noc
C Noah / Gooden / Gray against size only

If you look at the top 10, you find 9 guys who could start in some teams/situations. (probably means moves in summer obviously but lets focus on end of year) For good of future of team, need to play Thomas and Noah and Thabo as much as possible to see what they can do and so that they improve. Kirk is best PG so he gets majority of mins there, and Deng is best SF so hopefully he's healthy. Key will be for Hughes, BG, Noc, Gooden to play to their strenghs and for team to mesh and play together and not force shots as there is only so many shots to go around.

by NY Chicago Fan on Feb 24, 2008 11:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

agreed

Deng is fully starting to worry me. He is not really bouncing back from the injury too well.

No reason to have him in there for so many minutes tonight after he was clearly struggling.

That is JB's policy right? No minutes after an injury?

Lu is a big boy. He can be yanked, and Boylan should have yanked him earlier tonight when he was ineffective.

Deng needs to step into the "franchise player" stratosphere soon for me to be sold. Come on Lu.

by Orlando Woolridge on Feb 25, 2008 2:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

with Luol

I think they're watching how his feet are responding to playing time. Amd that's still easier for them to do when he comes off the bench unless they do something like play him 7 minutes the start of each quarter.

by KT on Feb 25, 2008 5:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Luol's Achilles Tendonitis

will affect him all season. You really need to wear the moonboot for a month in order to completely isolate stress on the achilles to allow it to heal.

You really shouldn't have him out there if he's not 100%. It's only going to stall the healing time and it's not like below 100% Luol is something we absolutely need right now.

He'll still be paid.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 8:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

um paging jim boylan

are you somehow related to scott skiles? this "starting" line-up couldnt score 50 against Duke. The players that came off the bench (Deng, Gordon, Hughes, Gooden) should be starting over these chumps. Yeah our starting five may put up a better defensive fight, but I heard that to win in basketball you have to actually put the ball in the basket. p.s. Hinrich dribbles and dribbles and dribbles with no intent on penetrating. He also gets burned on defense a lot more than people give him credit for. I also noticed that when he puts up a wild shot (make or miss) he is out of position on transition D leading to a 5 on 4 on the other end. I have seen this too many times, please if you are not gonna trade him at least bench him. PLEASE.

by alee7805 on Feb 25, 2008 12:10 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

You're right; the Bulls' starting five isn't very intimidating on the offensive end. Then again:

Gordon- 2-11 shooting (granted he had a bad night).
Gooden- his outside shot selection is evidence enough for why he shouldn't start.
Deng- still not playing at full strength.

Hughes was all right, but I don't think he's earned a starting position yet. We'll see what the next few games hold. For now, I'll take the guys who are showing some vitality. Tyrus was solid and the team's leading scorer. Thabo shot better than Gordon, Deng and Gooden. And Kirk had a double-double. We believed in these guys for a reason at the beginning of the year, why bury them now when a couple of Cleveland screwups come our way?

Besides, this same five started when the Bulls lit up the Nuggest for 135 points Friday. The only difference was BG's shots weren't falling this time around.

by ForWhomTheBullTolls on Feb 25, 2008 7:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This starting lineup

was a big reason we scored 135 points against Denver yesterday

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 9:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

eh, Hinrich was merely alright

he did have one awful 'Hinrich Manuever' though. My word, he wasn't even looking at the rim, let alone noticing that the Houston frontcourt wasn't defending it.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 25, 2008 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Boylan Did OK

Though I agree with Matt that the mid 3rd quarter sub of TT for twelve minutes was particularly eggregious. He was playing great, showing an array of offensive moves and playing solid defense.

Gooden was effective, though there were some troubling breakdowns in the lane where he refused to rotate on the penetrating Rocket guards and failed to swing the ball around to BG for an open three. Apparently, his mildly contested 21 footer was a better option.

I am not sure that Deng is healthy enough right now to impact the game for extended minutes. Despite announcers' pleas that Noc provides toughness, I'm getting tired of him closing out too hard on pump fakes and screwing up the rest of the help defense.

I would not be upset if we experimented at times with a Hughes/Thabo/Tyrus lineup at the 2/3/4.

Kirk did a nice job overall, but still needs to continue to look for his own shots....preferably within the flow of the offense.

With the depth in the backcourt, BG might find himself on a tighter leash. If he is not hot from outside, I don't think we can afford the defensive breakdowns. That's a difficult tightrope for Boylan to walk, since he could get hot at any time. The one thing that we know about Ben is that if he's not going well, he will force shots in an attempt to find his way. Not good for the Bulls.

Still just two games out of the playoffs, so hopefully we can tighten things up after Dallas tomorrow.

by Gene Banks on Feb 25, 2008 12:22 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I'm so biased

But if Tyrus played every minute he could keep his hands off his knees, I wouldn't bitch about the other rotation problems. With Deng playing particularly badly lately, he's looking like the only chance for a star around here, though Kirk has his moments, as does Noah.

Interest Level = Wins - Losses + 2*Tyrus Time + 1.5*(Thabo + Noah Time) - .4*Bricked layups + 3*Red Kerr Candies

by cubbybear on Feb 25, 2008 1:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I expect to see more of this

I would not be upset if we experimented at times with a Hughes/Thabo/Tyrus lineup at the 2/3/4.

Thabo needs to be on the floor. After Tyrus, Thabo has the most upside of any player on our roster in terms of improving now to get ready for next season.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 8:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

did we see any of this?

I cried out for it a couple times on the game thread, but I don't recall ever seeing it. I know there's got to be a site somewhere that will tell exactly who was on with whom and for how long....

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 8:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's right here

http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20080224&game=CHIHOU

by Scotter on Feb 25, 2008 8:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If I'm reading this right

it looks like they had a tiny overlap in the 4th quarter. Thanks.

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 9:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Does someone record these stats?

They have every NBA game on this site.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 9:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What do you mean "record"?

They use the play by play record to create what you see.

by Scotter on Feb 25, 2008 10:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thabo

I really liked Thabo's ability last night to come off of screens and knock down jumpers from 12-17 ft. If he can make that a consistent part of his game, it will open lanes for him as a second penetrator with Hughes.

Although Pax still loves his 'core', could we be seeing the development of a new 'core', built around Thabo, Tyrus and Noah?

by Gene Banks on Feb 25, 2008 9:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thabo/Tyrus/Noah

And probably Kirk. That's the new core in my view. We need more discussions between the staff and the press.

Does Boylan have a coaches radio interview every week? I'd like to see the paper or radio press spend some time talking to our staff on the record.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 9:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thabo was a monster on defense

especially around the basket. His straight up block on Yao was amazing. Then later he stoned T-Mac at the rim.

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 9:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Deng's still better than all three.

Right now. Only Tyrus is younger out of the four, too. sbulls has been preaching this since the summer, guys, with me joining late.

Frontline of Deng, Thomas, Noah will be great.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 25, 2008 10:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Deng gives you a good

mid-range jumper when it's on. When it's not, he's still pretty good going to the boards, but I'm not sure that balances out the quickness Thabo can bring to the front line. I'm not saying Thabo shold start there ahead of Lu, but Thabo does a more than respectable job wherever they put him.

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 10:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Deng is really good because he moves

as well without the ball as any player in the league. Which leads to a lot of easy baskets. Deng gets more inside points than any other Bulls and isn't even close, which is why the offense has been consistently better with him on the floor. He's the team's only consistent finisher inside. He's also a very underrated defender at SF, and has owned the likes of Paul Pierce, Caron Butler, etc.. He's a little sluggish right now, but there's very scenario's where anybody else should be playing SF instead of Deng.

by Scotter on Feb 25, 2008 10:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

(see mia culpa, below)

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 10:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hasn't moved as well this year

It may be that he's been battling the injury longer than he's let on, but he has not been nearly as effective cutting w/o the ball from the weak side this year. Given that he can't take anyone off the dribble, he becomes a straight-legged spot up shooter on the wing. Deng is only 22, but his length doesn't always make up for his lack of athleticism.

He will be able to maximize his talents when he's paired with an effective penetrating PG (my love for Derrick Rose grows each day) that demand the D's attention on the strong side. I will also be interested to see if Gooden has any skills passing out of the post to diving cutters.

This summer, the emphasis should be on moving Noc/Gordon for a talented PG (no true back to the basket bigs are really ever available) with Thabo or Hughes serving as the swing SG/SF (Deng starts). Gooden/Thomas/Noah can share the minutes at the PF/C spots. Clearing out the logjam on the wing will settle rotations down for Dwayne Casey or whoever's coaching the Bulls next year.

Who am I kidding - Jerry's not going to pay another coach a legitimate salary while paying Skiles. I see Boylan getting a two year extension if Scott's not hired for a new job next year.

by Gene Banks on Feb 25, 2008 12:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

missed the game but

it sounds like we have some hope and optimism back. It looks like this summer is shaping up to be pretty interesting regarding ben and lu. Few teams have cap space and they haven't played well enough to get a big contract. I'm feeling both will sign they're 1 year offer. I'm also hoping brand opts out and we throw the barn at him but thats another conversation...

by bullsfaninla on Feb 25, 2008 2:24 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

If you looked closely....

it was just another LOSS where we were really not competitive and had absolutely no chance of winning!

In the beginning, we had guys going to the basket. You can't drive and kick if you don't drive. Gordon and Hinrich can't do that for us effectively. Thabo could.

Hughes was supposed to be a "slasher" and Gooden a "post up presence." Looked good in the first half. Didn't take long before Hughes and even Gooden got into the long jump-shot mode which seems to be our system.

Same stuff. Different night.

Even when Jordan was here, we didn't start winning until every possession was important and we took high percentage shots as often as possible.

Nobody can figure out how we can't win with all this talent! It's the system stupid!

by hhi on Feb 25, 2008 4:39 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Boylan's biggest mistake was not bringing in Thabo

earlier. He waited too long to bring him back before the half. And Thabo finished the 1st half really strong. Gordon really held this team back. Thabo on the other hand rejected Yao..... Wow! Boylan waited too long to bring him back in the 4th too. Bulls needed his D when the Rockets were shooting the lights out on 3s.

by BiNgO on Feb 25, 2008 9:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Boylan: It's unfortunate; I feel bad for Du

<grin>

by paxson43 on Feb 25, 2008 6:33 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

It is what it is

If Du could provide some D and drop some shots consistently, he would be starting. No reason to feel bad coach, it is a job. His statement just shows that he is truly not a real NBA coach.

by BiNgO on Feb 25, 2008 9:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Matt... Nocioni has to be out there.

He spaces the floor. It's critical to facilitation!!!!

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 25, 2008 7:27 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Hinrich vs Duhon

I'm just new here but ... the first question which pops to mind is this ...

Q1. What's the reason some of you seem so down on Duhon vs Hinrich as a PG for this team?

Yes, Kirk is a better offensive player ... but, so too is he someone who regularly 'takes shots away' from the team's even better offensive players (eg Gordon, Deng, Thomas and, now, Hughes) ... compared to how the group functions with Duhon on the floor, instead.

Balancing out the group with Duhon (a non-shooter) in place of Hinrich (a shot-hog) - and, in fact, eventually trading away Kirk outright - would/should be the way for this team to go forward into the future, with this new style of play.

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 7:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Do you

even watch the games?

by sue369 on Feb 25, 2008 8:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

From a coach's perspective

Yes, I actually do watch Chicago's games ... and, IMO, this line-up, right here:

STARTERS: Duhon, Hughes, Deng, Thomas, Gray/Noah

KEY BENCH PLAYERS: Gordon, Sefolosha, Gooden, Noah/Gray

with the player(s) they can get back in return from trading Hinrich ...

is solid & well-balanced (i.e. Offense, Defense & Rebounding) for the Bulls heading forward from this point.

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 10:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

solid, well-balanced, doesn't resolve the issue

of Duhon sucking.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 25, 2008 10:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Based on what criteria

Duhon sucks? Really? In your opinion ...

Sorry to disagree with you on this but, Methinks not ... especially, in the rotation out-lined above.

'Pro Hoops' is a game of 'role-playing', and this is 'the part' for Chris Duhon that works best for the Chicago Bulls.

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 10:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

sucks

at basketball. He's not good at it. The basketball.

Not sure how he is at role-playing games.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 25, 2008 10:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

An example to consider

Avery Johnson was a below-average PG - with weaknesses in several different areas of the game - but, when thrust into a starting role (for the first time in his career?) with the Duncan-Robinson Spurs ... Did it really matter what his individual deficiencies were (as long as he wasn't a shot-hog)? Or, instead, Was it more important that specific traits/abilities he had (Defensive quickness & Leadership) fit extremely well with the other key players in San Antonio, at that time?

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

::eGirl stands::

Hi, my name is eGirl. I have an irrational opinion. I love Thabo.

I'll have to beg you in advance to forgive me...but Thabo's my guy, so I can tell you right now that I'll stick with him rationally or not. And I don't mind if you make fun of my stupid opinions about it, either. So if you want to call my opinions silly or dumb, it's OK, you won't be hurting my feelings. :)

OK. Now your turn with Du.

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thabo is just fine

I have no complaints with Thabo, whatsoever.

Actually, as an all-purpose role-player who can give a top-notch team quality minutes at so many different spots ... e.g PG, OG, SF ... at his size & with his specific skill set ... he's an extremely valuable asset for the Bulls moving forward. :-)

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 10:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

see now, I've been through enough

therapy to recognize when someone's avoiding the issue. C'mon, there. :)

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Denial...

It's not just a river.

by Lt.Dan on Feb 25, 2008 11:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He doesn't shoot well.

He actually turns the ball over a lot because considering he barely does anything risky offensively. He dominates the ball without being a threat offensively thus wasting time on offense. He's not any better of a passer than Kirk. And his teammates have to make up for Duhon not doing anything on offense.

by Scotter on Feb 25, 2008 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry, I find that totally inaccurate

Offensively, he doesn't shoot well. That is the only part you got right. He dominates the ball less than Kirk. Kirk also gets caught up in dribbling around and then trying to take his man one on one for a contested jumper. He is a better playmaker than Kirk. He can actually throw a lob pass and actually drives to the hoop and dishes it off to teammates. Kirk rarely drives and dishes. Kirk's assists (before the uptempo offense) come from passing it to guys around the perimeter and/or coming off screens. Kirk has also chosen not to pass to Thomas and Noah when they got post position earlier in the season. Kirk seems to do better with his playmaking recently...but he still does not have great court vision. Kirk is a better shooter and defender overall...but his best individual games is when he is shooting well and playing the role of a SG.

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 10:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

... with much of what you just wrote there.

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 10:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Du is just not that good a point guard.

Sure, his game looks more like that of a typical point guard, but that doesn't do much for ya if he's not that good at it. Kirk's a different type of player than Duhon--he's also a better/different player.

It doesn't make sense to want Duhon in the line-up just because he plays a point guardlike game. If you want a point guard, then trade for one or draft one. Have I mentioned Marcus Williams recently?

Also, did anyone notice that TJ Ford got minutes for Toronto last night? They'll have two point guards (which means a surplus of one) this off season.

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 11:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well

I'm not saying Duhon should start over Kirk. However, some of you are just making inaccurate statements about Duhon. He is a better playmaker than Kirk. They are different players. Kirk plays like a combo guard, not a point guard. Everyone's frustration with Duhon is pretty much based on his inability to shoot well consistently...or passing up on open shots.

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 11:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

When was the last lob pass you saw Duhon

throw? Did you watch the Detroit series last year? It was Kirk penetrating into the lane and dishing to the big guys for layups and dunks that helped turn that series around. Duhon dominates the ball for a guy who never shoots and rarely penetrates, he stands around dribbling the ball. Kirk's passing of penetration is at least as good as Duhon's.

Show me where Kirk played has all these great games playing SG. His best games have been when he is almost exclusively playing PG and pushes the ball, racking up plenty of assists in the process. Check his game logs.

by Scotter on Feb 25, 2008 11:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

watch all the highlights for Tyrus Thomas

Who do you see setting him up all the time? Duhon...not Kirk

Kirk pushing the ball to the rack? Are we watching the same game here?

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 11:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Duhon was also really good

at throwing the entry pass to Ben Wallace with 8 seconds left on the shot clock.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 25, 2008 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yea

He was also good at helping Wallace pad his stats by driving and dishing it to him for a dunk

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 11:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

must've been why

Wallace's stats were so great

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 25, 2008 11:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

We're talking about Ben Wallace are we not?

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 11:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

My only answer to that is ...

When a quality role-player like Duhon plays with a different set of players ... he actually plays the game differently, from that point forward.

Basketball is a funny game that way.

Duhon, Hughes, Deng, Thomas & Noah/Gray

supported by

Gordon, Sefolosha, Gooden & Gray/Noah

are a great fit together ...

especially

IF THEY'RE EVER ALLOWED TO PLAY WITHIN A TEAM SYSTEM LIKE THE TRIANGLE OFFENSE. :-)

Look Out!

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow...

Hey everybody, it's Tex Winters!

by Lt.Dan on Feb 25, 2008 11:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

if du is your starting point guard

you are not a good team.

to say that he deserves to start over hinrich (or if you trade hinrich, not get a PG better than du), is a joke.

by Jaina on Feb 25, 2008 10:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Life's a stage and we are but mere players ...

Derek Fisher is another example of a less-than-stellar PG ... who excelled, playing a specific role, for a great team.

BJ Armstrong? John Paxson? Steve Kerr? Craig Hodges? Ron Harper? Brian Shaw? Kenny Smith? ... etc.

Effective 'role-playing' is crucial job at the PG spot, in the NBA.

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 10:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The players you listed all were

capable of being efficient offensive players in a limited role. Duhon's had a limited role and he's still been inefficient.

by Scotter on Feb 25, 2008 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ron Harper

though was a fabulous SG in his early days, and had all those skills so that when he transitioned to be Jordan and Kobe's role playing friend, he added a lot of dangerous firepower to the team.

Duhon ain't comparable to any of these guys....Fisher...Armstrong...Kerr....Paxson...Hodges...Shaw....Smith all were more consistent with the 3 ball and could hit the big shots.

Duhon is a streaky shooter, and an above avg defender, but it's a stretch to compare him to these guys just because these guys weren't the best players on their championship teams.

Hodges/Kerr/Paxson/Shaw/Smith were all 5 times better at the open 3 than Duhon, and Harper as I mentioned could have been more a potent scorer if he didn't need to be a role player on those Bulls and Lakers teams.

Duhon would never be the scorer any of these guys could be. His best role is as a defender and a solid 15 minute backup PG off the bench.....

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Duhon vs Fisher & Shaw

IMO ... if Chris Duhon (with his type of Leadership skills) knows that he's an everyday 'Starting PG' for a team with a host of other quality players, who can score in different ways, e.g. Deng, Hughes, Gordon, Thomas, Sefolosha, Noah & Gray ... intent on playing the game 'the Right Way' ... then what he will do is become (#1) a solid facilitator, (#2) an even better defender/rebounder, and (#3) a much improved/better spot up 'catch & shooter'.

It's about how your group of players fit together.

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What you do think

he's been trying to do all along? He has improved one bit since his 2nd year in the league. And he didn't improve during his four years at Duke. And Duh Duh the great leader is a bunch of crap.

by Scotter on Feb 25, 2008 11:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

hasn't improved

by Scotter on Feb 25, 2008 11:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

All the guys listed can shoot

Duhon struggles at shooting. No way you can mention Kerr and Duhon in the same breath.

Come on.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 11:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

exceptions to the rule

Was Avery Johnson a 'good' shooter, early in his career?

How about Derek Fisher?

Or, Brian Shaw?

(or Dennis Johnson, or Gerald Henderson, or Danny Ainge, or Tony Parker)

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 11:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Duhon's getting ready

to come off his second contract. To me, that's hardly a young player. I never saw a lot of the guys you mention, but I do know Tony Parker, and I just don't see any Du/Parker correlation.

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

only in so far as

... neither could shoot the ball early in their career.

As Parker has shown though ... shooting is the one trait that's - relatively speaking - easy to improve at this level, if you're a starting player for a good team, with an assortment of other quality players, as well.

Bring in someone like Dave Hopla (Shooting Coach extraordinaire) to work with Chris (who has nothing mechanically wrong with his shooting technique) and, after he puts in enough reps running with the 1st team AND in practice on his own ... you would see a marked improvement in this area of his game in a short period of time.

Not to the point of 'Shooting Proficiency' but to the point of 'Shooting Adequacy' ... which is all that you would need, lining Duhon up with Deng, Hughes, Thomas & Gray/Noah, Gordon, Sefolosha, Gooden PLUS whichever scorer/shooter you got back in return for trading Kirk Hinrich!

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Parker

Also is much faster than Duhon....

Though i do think CDuh is a better defender (that's the issue where I think Parker gets slightly overrated on).

Still I don't think anything would help Parker and Duhon be comparable given Parker's has continued to improve everywhere and Duhon's essentially the same player today as he was as a rookie....Duhon was a better than avg rookie, and now is an avg to below avg pg (above average backup PG, below avg starting PG).

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Duhon needs to go

Pax should have traded him for like a draft pick or something after he made the swap with the Cavs. Goes to show Pax didnt really know what he wanted to do until the trade deadline.

by Takeaseat on Feb 25, 2008 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Duhon's been given

more than his fair share shot to be considered in the same breath of the guys you mentioned. Face the facts, he's a decent backup PG, and maybe if we had a team of Kobe Bryant-Lamar Odom-Pau Gasol-Andrew Bynum he'd be a decent role playing starting PG.....but for a team that does not have a player better at any of the 2-5 positions that were listed here, Duhon's just not good enough.

I like Duhon actually, he gives solid effort, he controls his turnovers, he can get streaky and get points, and he's one of the better small sized, defensive PG's in the league....but we don't have the right mix of players around him to make Duhon a worthy minute eater. Given our structure, unless he's on an offensive tear (1 of maybe 30 games) he shouldn't be given more than 15 MPG....and now with the much more well rounded Hughes on the squad, I think that's even tough.

Duhon will be a solid contributor for future teams. He might still be a Bull next year if we trade away either Gordon or Hughes, but if he isn't it's no harm done.

Comparing Duhon to Hinrich is ridiculous though. Sure D might be more of a natural passer, but Hinrich is proving again taht he can pass just as well as Duhon when we have 5 guys on the floor who can at least make more dunks than the miss....

And Kirk's always been a better defender, and a more consistent--though less streaky shooter, and decision maker.

Kirk stunk the first 1/2 of the year, but since January seems to have awoken out of his funk and is again playing at his normal much better than the avg starting PG levels.

I don't know why Kirk is always a 2nd half of the season player or why his 1st half flunk was so awful this year.....but if Kirk can crack that he will still be a steal at the money he's makign.

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 11:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

please don't get me wrong

In no way do I think Chris Duhon is the "2nd Coming" of anyone special at the PG spot, for this team.

It's just that, in my eyes, he's a very serviceable player ... that doesn't eat up shots ... like Kirk Hinrich does ... when your team now has a plethora of other options on Offense who can score the ball, if they get the chance in a free-flowing (structured) offense based on player & ball movement (which is not what Hughes & Gooden had to deal with in Cleveland).

Chicago can even keep Hinrich ... if he decides to stop shooting the ball so much ... and, the Bulls focus their scoring on Deng, Hughes, Gordon and Thomas ... with Noah, Sefolosha, Gooden and Gray, taking care of the Defense & Rebounding parts of their game.

It's just that ... if they trade Hinrich they WILL then get a quality player (scorer/shooter) in return ... which will NOT happen, if they simply keep Duhon on their roster as a part-time, back-up.

Keeping Duhon ... with the other players they have NOW ... and trading Hinrich is the best way for them to maximize their resources, IMO.

If Chicago did THAT ... that's a serious team, right there, frolicking in the United Center.

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 11:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't say

Hinrich is untradeable, that would be silly given how bad he was in Oct-Nov and Dec....but Hinrich is more valuable than you think.

Kirk can shoot, and I think should be less tentative out there than he's been. Kirk tends to shoot more when we need to force something, and therefore takes more difficult shots than he needs to take--whcih negatively impact his FG%'s.

Having more offensive weapons on the court will no doubt help Kirk.

If Kirk wasn't in the BYC this year, I could see several teams asking to add him to their squad. He's a very valuable player.

I expect having us finally play a 5 on 5 game (the first time maybe we'll ever have a 5x5 team in the 4th quarter--Curry rarely if ever played in the 4th) will help Captain Kirk.

Kirk's biggest struggles are in his decision of when to best be the facilitator and when to be the offensive player he has the skills to be. He defers a lot to Gordon, and sometimes when Gordon's double and triple teamed, Kirk needs to notice this and try to use his solid offensive skills to keep those defenses honest.

Kirk has the ability like many others to drive to the lane and get shots off....I would hardly want us to trade Kirk just so we could keep Duhon....

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 12:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What I don't like sometimes

with Kirk is his preconceived notions about what the offense needs. We are fresh off a game where all our starters are making shots...and in the 1st quarter of last night's game..Kirk was forcing a few jumpers early in the shot clock instead of working for a higher percentage bucket. Thomas looked like he could get anything he wanted last night and Thabo's midrange jumper has been money recently...Kirk acted like he was the number one option a few times yesterday in the first quarter.

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 12:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

exactly

Bingo

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 12:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

uhh

Easier to defer to your team mates if you can score. Better to miss shots at the begining of the game rather then late in the game. If he wants to start the game off by setting himself up on offense, then let him. It will get him a better feel for his shots. By making those early shots, he becomes a threat (When hot, he has the potential to score 20 easy, no team wants this) and as defenders come to stop him, then you can find the slashers and other shooters. I dont see why this is a problem. And late in the game, hinrich shoots less, and when he does shoot it is usually to stop a run (see last nights game, when hinrich hit a jumper to cut a rockets lead at the half).

Duhon vs kirk? Duhon passes more BECAUSE he isnt that great offensively, he is as tall as ben gordon, so all those height problems affect him the same. He is a good pg in all regards to passing, but he isnt that much quicker than hinrich. Aside from that he is also physically weaker than hinrich. He is a solid defender, but (perhaps because hinrichs physical advantages) hinrich is the better defender. Duhon forces things alot more than kirk hinrich, i doubt its on tape, but this year when pheonix played in chicago (it was a sunday game, so abc had taken over the airwaves) In that game, Hinrich was the player keeping the game together, while duhon was forcing things and commiting turnovers.

Duhon is a great backup pg, and i can imagine if the bulls other players did become much much better, or if we were trying to get a kobe or another proven superstar, then we should give up hinrich. But to argue that right now duhon is the better option, man, skiles never even thought that. Hell boylan put the test of who should start, and still hinrich came out on top...so really what magic are you waiting for to have duhon be the better player. He led this when hinrich was bruised, and his numbers really werent spectacular at all. Mind that golden state game.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Feb 25, 2008 5:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ok...

First of all I wasn't arguing whether Duhon should be starting over Hinrich or not. I understand they are both flawed players...so you're going to be missing something with either of them starting right now. I think a lot of people here are just completely blind to what both players bring to the table...and it's become more of a "ridicule Duhon because he can't shoot" type of analysis.

So you think it's fine when Hinrich starts off the game acting like the number one option when we could have had a higher percentage bucket? I find that ridiculous. It's not like Hinrich always controls himself with his shot selection later in the game. When Gordon and Deng were out, Hinrich would act like the number one option in the 4th quarter as well.

Duhon forces things a lot more than Kirk, which results in turnovers? It's amazing he has a better assist/turnover ratio then

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 5:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Naw

The reason to trade Hinrich isn't just so that you can keep Duhon ... it's because of what you can get back in return for Hinrich (perceived, by others, as a starter) vs Duhon (perceived, by others, as a back-up).

With their current roster make-up ...

* The Bulls with Duhon plus a player in return for Hinrich

is superior to

* The Bulls with Hinrich plus Duhon as a back-up

* The Bulls with Hinrich plus a player in return for Duhon.

:-) :-) :-)

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Here's the thing.

Duhon assists per 48 minutes=8.2

Hinrich assists per 48=8.8

And Hinrich might take more shots, but that's mostly because he can actually shoot.

by CrashDavis on Feb 25, 2008 12:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Add to that

That Kirk was hardly the former Kirk early this year, and his asssits per 48 would be far better than Duhon's....and the fact that I bet you Duhon's stats are the same as they've been every year, where I'd imagine Kirks tanked early on this year....

Last month Kirk vs Duhon has to have a far greater variance, and add to that Kirk's ability to score, and better D, and there you go.

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Kirk also

Has the ball in his hands more than Duhon. Check the assist/turnover ratio and you'll see the difference. Duhon does have lapses though, where he's just deferring instead of playmaking. Before the uptempo offense...how was kirk getting his assists? Pick and rolls and passing around the perimeter mostly. Thomas and Noah was barely ever set up by him. Kirk has even waved Noah/Thomas off when they got post position earlier in the season...to clear out and give him room to dribble. I'm not sure if Kirk has thrown a successful lob pass in two years. That's kind of scary.

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ainge, Johnson, Parker

These guys could get to the rim. The jumpshot came later, but they always had the ability to get to the rim. Duhon doesn't have these assets.

The only thing he does comparably to Ainge, Johnson and Parker is handle the ball and make free throws.

Duhon in in his 4th season as a Bull. He is in his second contract. This was a matching deal the Bulls offered. We wanted to keep Duhon at the time. However, now that Thabo has emerged and Hughes is acquired, there will be few minutes for Duhon anymore.

I figured we would trade him. There are contenders that need a player like Duhon.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm glad we didn't trade him

I am glad we kept Duhon instead of giving him to Cleveland, because Duhon can be solid as a backup PG....and he could hurt us later on.....

But I expect Duhon might be involved in a sign and trade with us this summer (along with Gordon and/or Hughes and some other filler).

Duhon has value, he's undervalued on this site because his flaws don't mesh well with the rest of our team, but on a championship team or a team with a different mix of talent, Duhon could be valuable).

Trading Duhon to the Cavs might really have helped make that trade more in favor of Cleveland, but as it ironed out I think long and possibly even short term the Bulls will win out. Big ben was a shell of his former self, and no playing wtih Lebron is going to materially change that. He had 12 pts 10 boards against the lowly Gasol-less Memphis, that's nothing to write home about it 34 minutes of action...still that's one of his top 5 best games of the year....Drew Gooden had 12 pts 8 boards in 9 less minutes against far better competition playing without a double and triple teaming superstar....

The Cavs made a pretty stupid trade, which will especially be obvious in the next 2 years.

I have found more respect for Paxson after somehow pulling off this trade, it gives us more tradable assets and keeps us young....this season was lost either way, but suddenly if we make the playoffs again, it won't feel quite like a waste, whereas if we made the playoffs with Big Ben, it would have seemed like a let down when there was young talent out there that we could have grabbed....

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 11:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

100%

Agree, completely, with what you just wrote there.

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 12:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

except that

What you'll get back in return for Duhon ... isn't close to what you'll get back in return for Hinrich.

Avery Johnson couldn't shoot the ball a lick, either, and he was still plenty good enough to log major minutes for a championship team in San Antonio.

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What we'd get back for Kirk

This year wouldn't be worth Kirk's real value either.

Kirk has finally woken up from his coma, and by year end his value will be back up.

This trade deadline wasn't the time to trade him, especially given that he's got a BYC that makes him trade for a player or mix of players who earn $14M....

Kirk's salary will decline and his value will be back up to at or above his salary level by the end of this year....he played like crap and for a while there seemed hardly worth a 2-3M salary this year....he's gotten out of that slump and judging from yesterday and the last month + seems to be the above avg PG and again our leader...

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 12:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're putting too much emphasis on shooting

Avery Johnson did enough, according to PER, to be a league average player for the better part of his career. Add in his D, and you have an overall above average player. Duhon has not even approached league average. His D isn't good enough to carry him to league average. What you're trying to say is that this team, as constructed, needs a different type of PG than Hinrich is. I disagree, but whatever. Seriously, though, back off the Duhon love. It's pretty hard to take the argument seriously that he warrants any starting time other than in the NBADL or Europe. He's a below average player who should be getting limited time off the bench in the right situation.

by snley on Feb 25, 2008 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

sorry to disagree, but ...

neither Ainge nor DJ could 'get to the rim' very well, at this level.

(Ainge in college, yes, but not in the NBA)

They a just 2 examples of guards who played on championship calibre teams who couldn't really shoot the ball well but made up for it in other areas of the game ... and, eventually, were able to reach a level of adequacy with their shooting (especially Ainge), defense & rebounding (especially DJ) to more than compensate for this initial deficiency.

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 12:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hey, fellas & girls ...

it's been a lot of fun dropping in and sharing some ideas about the current Bulls.

Hopefully, I can do it again, in the not-too-distant future.

cheers (to all)

:-) :-) :-)

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Bye Mrs. Duhon.

by sue369 on Feb 25, 2008 12:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

does she ...

also run a website, like mine?

(in which case, Mrs. Duhon is 'cool', in my book)

:-) :-) :-)

Da Bulls are back on track ... due to their recent trade with Cleveland.

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

happy-happy, joy-joy

http://www.benchduhon.com/

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 25, 2008 2:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Forgot about Nocioni

Sorry but, just realized that I, inadvertently, left out Andres Nocioni from the Bulls' line-up I posted in this thread ... which should, read as follows:

STARTERS: Duhon, Hughes, Deng, Thomas, Noah/Gray

KEY BENCH PLAYERS: Gordon, Sefolosha, Nocioni, Gooden, Gray/Noah

PLUS the player(s) they back in return for trading Kirk Hinrich.

IMO ... if Chicago follows that plan, right there, between now and next season ... then, the Bulls will become a 'serious' contender for the Eastern Conference championship for the next 10 years.

cheers

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Then I guess

we disagree and I'm really glad Pax and Boylan agree with me.

by sue369 on Feb 25, 2008 10:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Duhon provides this team with nothing

He can't make his outside shots consistently, He can't slash to the basket, He can't play D for squat. Most of the players he is matched up against blow right by him at will. I don't see him dishing out any spectacular passes either. He is D league material at best.

by BiNgO on Feb 25, 2008 9:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yea

I think fans on here underrate Duhon. Although Duhon really isn't anything special...he's the only real point guard on this team. Hinrich seems to do ok in an uptempo offense though

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 9:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Soooo

we lose to a pretty good team last night and now the answer to our problems is simply to start Duhon? Wow, why didn't the Bulls think of that earlier?

It's cause they already tried that! Duhon is to a good baskeball player as oil is to water.

by RogersPark Kris on Feb 25, 2008 10:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Also Kirk isn't a shot-hog

he's actually had 2 double-doubles the past 2 games.

Why is this?

Playing 5 on 5, instead of 3 on 5 (Du and Wallace).

He's not Paul or Williams, but he's better than Du.

by Jaina on Feb 25, 2008 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Couldn't agree more.

by sue369 on Feb 25, 2008 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wasn't part of Kirk's criticisms...

...are that he doesn't shoot enough? Is this true?

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 25, 2008 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That has been

posted in here before. Kirk is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

by sue369 on Feb 25, 2008 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Meh?

Part of being a captain and the oldest, longest-tenured part of the "core", I guess. (nocioni doesn't count) I still like him. PG is by far not the biggest question on the team.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 25, 2008 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yep

I have seen criticism of Kirk based on the fact that he isn't a 20 point a game scorer.

by KT on Feb 25, 2008 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

self percetions matter a lot

It's a perceptual thing.

Although Hinrich really doesn't shoot THAT much ... he is still someone who fancies himself as a player who can score the ball if the situation presents itself ... in his own mind.

Duhon isn't this kind of player at all.

On a team with other solid players at the 2, 3, 4 & 5 spots ... Chris Duhon knows, to his core, that he is strictly (the most important!) 5th Wheel.

by khandor on Feb 25, 2008 12:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I love how you compare Du

to guys who played with Bird, Duncan and Robinson, and Michael Jordan. How do you think Kirk would look if he played with those guys instead of Ben Wallace?

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Feb 25, 2008 3:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

interesting...

the criticism that I've seen has never had to do with how many points he scores...it always had to do with how aggressive and/or selfish he should be.

There are plenty of times where he just doesn't seem to be aggressive, selfish, or whatever you want to call it and he lets too many opportunities pass by.

I think people could care less if he scored 20 or not...as long as he stops being so doggone passive and timid.

by ScottieCartwright on Feb 25, 2008 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I had to miss the game (first all season)...

but I am glad Tyrus played well again.

What happened to Noah?

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Feb 25, 2008 8:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Noah tweaked his right ankle

I think it was a mild ankle sprain. ESPN never followed up on the injury. He was coming across the paint and planted with his right foot, but he never planted it flat so it was a soft roll. He didn't step on another players foot and he did not roll it over the top of the ankle(high ankle sprains are worse).

I don't think he returned in the game after the injury which isn't a good sign for tonight's game.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 8:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Our new problem is coaching

Hey, same as the old problem right?

This was predicted loss to start the season. As we've nearly flipped the entire team with changes, none of that affected the outcome. It was still an expected loss to the hottest team in the NBA.

I picked the Rockets to win the West. I thought the addition of Luis Scola and another year of maturity in Tmac and Yao would put them over the top. They started hot, then faded, and now have put Scola back in the regular rotation, elevated Carl Landry(who?) and benched Chuck Hayes.

I thought Scola killed us last night. Nothing is run for the guy on offense despite the fact that he's a proven low post scorer. Not that you should run plays for the guy when Tmac handles the ball and Yao is the first post option, but Scola was moving all over the court to get open for easy buckets.

We lost because of opponents three point shooting. You're not going to win many games when your opponent shoots 54% from 3pt territory. The Rocket guards were 10-18 from downtown. Or, if you like paying attention, players not guarded by Andres Nocioni.

The Rockets attempt and make more threes in the 2nd half, but Chicago's first half effort included attacking the rim. 14 FTA versus 31 for the Rockets isn't a good sign. Thabo and Hughes had length on Alston, Head, and Jackson, but only Thabo was 1 of 2 from the line. It was Hughes first game, but his postgame comments were positive. He likes our system. What system? Whatever, just slash and attack the rim. The Rockets have no shot blockers at all.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 8:19 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

And that's the whole problem

the "system." if our system is to just shoot jump shots, that's what we're going to do. it doesn't matter whether we've added a slasher or a post man to our roster if we don't use them properly. we're going to need some different sets to incorporate their strengths.

and i'm not thrilled with these comments by pax. ugh.

by Jaina on Feb 25, 2008 8:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That is exactly what happened in the 4th

They did still end up scoring more points in the paint than Houston, but abandoned that offense in the the 4th. It seemed as Noah went down, they lost the ability to take it inside, which also did not allow the outside shooters good looks. When they did get good looks, their shots did not go down.

by BiNgO on Feb 25, 2008 9:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hey now...don't laugh at Landry

I'm pretty sure he was in the running for Big10 POY. He was a really good college player...just a little undersized to play pf in the pros. He won't dominate in the NBA, but he's good enough so we shouldn't be surprised to make the occasional nice play. Bottom line, that's all he did--a few nice plays.

What I noticed about Gooden is that he's not bad, bigger thatn TT--but he looks like a typical, lumbering power forward after watching Tyrus.

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 8:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Didn't mean to dog Landry

I just didn't know who he was. ESPN guys said Adelman was really impressed with his work ethic. Every time he gave Landry a chance in practice he would execute. So he started giving him PT in games. Landry executed again. I thought he had a solid game off the bench last night.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 8:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hey

He's a Milwaukee Vincent product. Wait until his brother Marcus hits the pros.

by KT on Feb 25, 2008 8:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought I heard somewhere

that he was kind of a Wisconsin high school legend

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 8:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Noc did a fine job yesterday

As Stacey pointed out, Having Yao and Scola down the middle and with the sets that Adelman runs, it's nearly impossible to defend. Noc was forced into making decisions to jump off his man to avoid having TMAC/SCOLA/YAO make easy 2's in favor of giving up a 3 pt attempt (lower accuracy shot).

The fact is when you've got TMAC playing like he was playing and annihilating Sefalosha and Hughes with his offensive drives, there was little to do. Noc in every segment made the right play last night, it's just that Battier made the 3's.

I know that's not always the case, but that totally was the case yesterday. Noc's head was in the game, and he was decent....

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 9:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thabo was baffled

TMac was rolling last night. I think there was only two plays where Tmac should have finished by Thabo was all over him making great plays. In other possessions Tmac was having his way with whomever was guarding him.

I don't know if any defender can stop Tmac when he has the penetration game going. Once he starts that, his elevation on his jump shot and his 6'8" frame make it almost impossible to alter that shot without fouling him.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 9:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Stacey also pointed out

the time where Noc didn't know whether to guard the three point shooter or guard the driving wing player. Noc stepped in a little bit against the driving wing player and took a step back towards the guy by the three point line...which effectively led to leaving both players undefended.

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't realize t he game was CSN

I would rather have listened to our home guys than the espn crew. Our home announcers have been watching the team all year and are in a better position to make judgements than a crew of guys just seeing the team for the first time.

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 9:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

eh...

Noce was OK, that's about it. I still saw too much of him last night. In my opinion, even though Lu isn't playing too hot right now, I think you need to get him back in the starting lineup (maybe that's part of the problem).

Forget this "earn your way back" philosophy...Lu may not be back in form yet, but Noce isn't doing much to warrant to still be starting over Lu.

He missed a bunch of defensive coverages last night (again) and he had about a quiet 12 points as I can remember (the only memorable basket was his dunk at the end).

by ScottieCartwright on Feb 25, 2008 11:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I will say

that I'd rather Noc had a 'quiet' 12. Means he's not gunning.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 25, 2008 11:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Any word on Noah

Noah looked decent, then twisted his ankle, sat and didn't return....any word on Joakim's injury?

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 8:24 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I thought the Bulls looked pretty solid yesterday

Noah was solid in his time (his stats were mediocre I guess, but his effort shone with his 4 steals). Tyrus looked like the best Bull, and Deng looked like the worst Bull. Luol better get into gear pretty quickly or perhaps the Bulls should play a lineup of: Hinrich-Sefalosha-Tyrus-Gooden-Noah and bring Luol-Gordon-Nocioni-Hughes off the bench.

The Bulls looked much better in last night's loss than they had all season, Houston just looked very tough, and also Houston was ridiculously hot from 3 pt land. If those shots didn't fall--many of which were covered--the Bulls would have stood a better chance in yesterday's game.

Play of the night for me was Noah's steal and fast break DUNK. That was sweet! I was cheering at home.

Houston looks like they totally deserve to be in the mix of the top out West. Right now after yesterday's game and given how poorly the Suns looked, I'd place Houston in the top 3 powers out west with the Lakers, Spurs, Houston.

We'll see the new look Mavs tonight--I can't wait.

We Bulls instantly look more athletic and dangerous. It's a very tough stretch to integrate during this swing.

My quick reviews on the new guys: Gooden, looked strong, solid overall, but made a few ill advised jump shot attempts from almost the 3 point line that Houston rebounded and lead to Battier three's.

Hughes was ok, liked when he handled the ball for us, but as Matt said, he settled a bit too much for the jump shots.

My only real Boylan issue was why did he sit Captain Kirk so much yesterday. Kirk had one of the best games of the year for the Bulls, his D was solid, and he was sharp on offense....and yet Boylan sat him for far too long in the 2nd half....

I thought the rest was ok though, I'm excited to see the new look Bulls. We're on the road again to competitiveness.

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 8:33 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Tyrus at the 3

Do you need to see more evidence? I think the cement is dry on the Tyrus at the 3 experiment.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 8:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I've thought

that the only time tyrus looked ok at the 3 was with noah and gray out there. I think he looked bad at the 3 in like the smith/wallace combos. i can't remember totally though.

but i remember there were stints with having the 3 rookies in there really gave energy. might work with gooden instead of gray.

and i'm not really promoting tyrus at the 3 cause i think he's better at the 4, but i think it's possible that a lineup with the 3 of them could work.

by Jaina on Feb 25, 2008 9:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Plus

I don't think you can judge Tyrus at the 3 when we had Wallace doing nothing at the 5.

Tyrus's energy is effective enough and he seems to be getting confidence in his jump shot, the guys a second year player who just needs more consistent time to get a feel for his role.

I'd hardly say we've seen enough to give him his time here.

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 9:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You guys make some good points

but i dont like Tryus at the 3... he doesnt handle well enough yet and he seems to pick up a lot of silly fouls when he plays that spot.

by Takeaseat on Feb 25, 2008 9:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know

if you can really say a 6'9" somewhat weak but ridiculously athletic guy who can dribble and pass is a pure 4.

Gooden is a pure 4. Tyrus is a different beast altogether.....

Right now since Tyrus has a few holes (ball handling and jump shooting) perhaps he fits better as a 4, but long term if we can get him used to being a 3, then we'll be set.

Tyrus will never be able to overpower the awesome, near 7 foot 4's in the league like Duncan, Stoudemire, Nowitski, Garnett etc.

His athleticism might cause some troubles at times in a help defense manner, but I see him matching up continually against these guys and succeeding...though he would have the height and athleticism to do far better against the 3's.

I know Gooden ain't comparable to those guys either, but he's got all the strength and is a better defender than he's been given credit for, that he can at least hold his own. Gooden's the first PF we've had since aging Antonio Davis went to New York......

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 10:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You don't have to be Karl Malone

to be a pure 4. Tyrus's skill set is best suited for PF both offensively and defensively, which pretty much makes him a pure 4.

by Scotter on Feb 25, 2008 10:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Fuck PURE!!!

Can we ban that word? It's really starting to piss me off. Holy shit.

Now, on to the other points. Stoudamire is a center. So is Duncan. The other guys (you forgot Rasheed Wallace) are getting older and w/in a few years, he'll be able to out-athlete them. After that, you're talking about Josh Smith, Antawn Jamison, Chris Bosh, Shawn Marion, Carlos Boozer, Pau Gasol, David West, David Lee, Okafor, LaMarcus Aldridge, Bargnani, Jianlian, Randolph.

Some of those guys are better, and will probably always be better than Thomas. Others are more firmly established. But I'm not seeing anyone on that list that particularly scares me as far as Thomas's defensive "slightness" or whatever.

Do you?

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 25, 2008 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Tyrus

Never will have that monster inside game we want, and seems too much of a finesse type of player (unless he can bulk up) to really be a solid PF. Gooden is a monster in strength, though he has that "village idiot" mentality, that he showed yet again with his 3-4 20 foot jump shots in the 3rd or 4th quarter that he missed and Houston rebounded turning them into 3's.....

Still, I think right now, given that Tyrus has the raw skills, we can hide him better at the 4 on a crappy team, but I'm saying long term, Tyrus and the Bulls can shine if we get him to be that 3 that his body type fits.

I don't know if we really want Tyrus to completely bulk up either, because that might hinder some of his freakish athleticism. Instead let's have him work on some ball handling and jump shooting....he's already got the inside game and defensive tendencies to make him a solid 3 in this league.

His size deficiencies, both in height and strength will hinder his future play if he was a PF.

His passing, blocking, help defense and raw shooting skills seem to indicate with a little more work, he'd be an awesome 3, with a better ceiling at the 3 than Deng.

Let's have the 4 be our role player--Gooden, a POWERFUL PF, who can bang with the best in the league there and at least keep them honest.

Tyrus can and will be steamrolled by the Stoudemire (sorry he's a 4 again now and really always was a 4 playing in a 3 role), Boozer--a STRONG 4, West, etc....

Tyrus can always switch to the 4 if the matchup allows (i.e. Aldridge, the finesse Gasol, Jamison, etc) but I think having him equipped to be a 3 first will help us long term.

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 11:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Honestly

I thought Tyrus outplayed Gooden both offensively and defensively last night. Not sure why there are people wanting Gooden to start. When Tyrus plays the 4 and Noah plays the 5...good things seem to happen for us.

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm a

Tyrus supporter like the rest of the folks here...but come on, it shouldn't be hard to "outplay" someone on their first game with the team.

Him "outplaying" Gooden last night doesn't really count.

by ScottieCartwright on Feb 25, 2008 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Are you telling me

That Gooden is better than Thomas? If he was better than what Thomas has shown recently...do you honestly think so many Cleveland fans were happy to get rid of him?

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No I'm not saying

Gooden is Better than Thomas...I am saying that Gooden would be a better role playing PF than Thomas, a guy who can constantly be a role playing force to give consistency to that position.

Thomas I feel has superstar potential.....but I think his potential will be more fully realized if we made him a primarily a 3 (SF) where his height, size matchup, rather than always force him to play out of position at the 4. Some nights having Tyrus at the 4 will work, but other nights against the big 7 foot awesome bigs--more than half the time, Tyrus will do better long term primarily at the 3....he just won't have that 4 height and since he doesn't have the height, his bulk/size becomes an issue, and that last thing I want Tyrus to do is bulk up and slow down....

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 12:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hmm really?

From what I've seen, Thomas plays the 4 much better than at the 3. At the 4, he stays near the rim to block shots and he's a much better shot blocker than Gooden. The knock on Gooden in cleveland was his defense...do we want a weaker defensive PF starting for us? It's not like his offensive game is that great. At the 4, Thomas also presents a defensive matchup offensively against PFs because of his quickness. If PFs leave him open for the jumper...Thomas is starting to make them pay. If he was guarded by 3s...Thomas would not have as big of an advantage getting a jumper or driving to the basket...something you would expect a SF would do. Thomas on defense will also have less shot blocking and rebounding opportunities.

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Tyrus

might play better at the 4 NOW, but he's hardly hit his full potential yet anyway. I think long term for Tyrus to be a star we should mold him into the 3 where he'd still be above avg athletically and yet he'd have the size to play alongside other 3's in the league.

He can shift to 4 if the matchup allows against the more finesse 4's, but I think for him to be a star in this league we should work him into a 3 role and get him used to that spot.....that's the LONG TERM goals.

Of course I've said this above, but I don't know if you've read that. Of course Tyrus looks better now at the 4, he doesn't yet have the jump shot or the ball handling down that he needs to be a 3, but if he is forced to learn on the job there, he'll improve, and he's already much better in those areas now than he was earlier this season...

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 12:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well if that's true

You would rather have Thomas at the 3 and Gooden at the 4 rather than Thomas at the 4 and Deng/Nocioni/Thabo at the 3? I still have doubts about how good of a player Gooden is.

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Who cares about

Shot Blocking and rebounding opportunities, if playing him at the 3 hurts his stats a bit in those areas, it would make the team better than having an undersized guy play a spot that isn't best suited for his all around potential and skills.

I'll give you that he has that freakish athletic ability on offense to get more points in the paint against some of the 4s in the league, but that is something a good coach....ahem...not Boylan....ahem.....could fix.

We Bulls fans are so used to having softees and/or undersized guys in our big spots (Chandler and Wallace the last 2 prominent ones--even Joe "outside jumper" Smith) that we tend to forget that our competition of the Duncan's, Garnett's, Wallace/McDyess's, Bosh's, Stoudemire's, even Dirk's, could all outmuscle us with a lanky, but athletic Tyrus at the 4.

Look at Tayshawn Prince, he could get more blocks, etc at a 4 spot than he does at the 3, but he'd be far less effective there.

Tyrus will be better than Prince (unless he's injured). Let's move him to a 3 and force him to play what is his natural position anyway and the position that he sees himself being.

He just doesn't have the body type/size to be an all star 4, and we've got a solid role playing 4 now.

Tyrus is more athletic than Deng anyway, and Deng wants too much money. Sign and trade Deng this summer for more C depth and maybe a spot up shooter (a Kapono type), and voila the Bulls are fixed. Tyrus is improving and he's improving most int he 3 areas of jump shooting and ball handling, skills that belie his current placement at PF.

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 1:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I see what you're saying:

That sf seems to be a place where TT can better utilize more of his physical talent.

But, like Matt and JVanG said, you're better off if the mismatch favors your quickness rather than your size. TT at pf is a huge quickness mismatch no matter the opponent...and that mismatch might be able to be better exploited in the team concept than simply training Tyrus to play further from the basket. I like him at the 4.

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yup

that's the best way to utilize his athleticism, put him at the 4 where he's a special athlete. At the 3 he's still above average, but not as much.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 25, 2008 1:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

A lot of people

question the Bulls taking TT over Aldridge, but I'm convinced that this quickness vs size formula is exactly why they did it. Head-to-head LSU played Texas, and Tyrus destroyed and humiliated Aldridge in that game.

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 1:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't question the move

Tyrus's athleticism alone would have me choose him over Aldridge.

Sure Aldridge has been better out of the gate than Tyrus, but Lamarcus is still more a finesse PF who will struggle against the bigs.

Tyrus will be a beast and he will be the better player in 2 mroe years and for the rest of his career (without injury).

We knew Lamarcus was more ready, but I'm still happy with that draft by Paxson. We might have a better record today with Lamarcus, but our future would be a shade less bright.

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 1:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And you're still forgetting...

...Luol-too-slow-to-be-a-shooting-guard-Deng. A Top 10 SF and possibly a Top 5 SF going forward.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 25, 2008 2:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's a big possiblity

for Luol to be a top 5 SF....

I thought there was a chance of it, but this season has made me think otherwise. Luol doesn't have the athleticism that Tyrus has, and he also doesn't have enough confidence to be that big time player.

I'm starting to think we let Luol go or use him in a trade.

I think, however, that Tyrus has the capability of being a top 5 SF someday.

Luol's never been a monster athlete. He's skilled, sure, but not as skilled as his rep. Tyrus is far more gifted athletically and is as athletic as any SF in the game (though guys like James obviously have harnessed their skills far better than Tyrus has or likely will)....

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 2:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So get rid of a guy with All Star potential to...

make room for someone who may not fit at that position plus leaving a hole at another position. Makes sense to me. What I loved about the Bulls the past few years has been the uptempo style they played and been built for. Thomas is a great asset at the 4 for an uptempo team. I drool at the idea of a frontcourt of Deng, Thomas, and Noah pushing the tempo. The past couple games, we've seen what kind of damage Thomas and Noah can inflict when given the opportunity to out run their counterparts from the other team. Deng, when healthy, will fit in with them quite nicely. While Deng will probably never be a superstar, to write him off in his 4th season because he hasn't reached lofty expectations is ludicrous. Deng still has that All Star potential and replacing him would be much more difficult than you realize.

by snley on Feb 25, 2008 3:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't get rid of Deng for nothing

But let's get our value star for Deng.

And no, Tyrus's skills, height speed, etc all point towards the 3 and not the 4. He's at the 4 because he's still learning the skills of a 3 and this will stint his growth.

I admit Deng might not be a bad fit for our team, but as our "most valued" sign and trade guy, let's trade him. He'll never be nearly as good as the BaB hype anyway, and now a lot of the Blogabull hype-sters and Chicago fans are already starting to notice that....

Let's deal Deng this summer before he's an overpaid almost all star if everything goes right. We've already got one of those (Hinrich--slightly overpaid, but Deng would be more overpaid than Captain Kirk).

We might end up with 3 of them after this year (Deng-Gordon-Hinrich), and those 3 will limit our potential.

Let's try to package Deng and get the superstar we need...imagine if we could give Houston Deng and Hughes and our draft pick for TMAC (gimpy back) and change.....

I don't care that TMAC is gimpy back, we'd totally be back in the picture with:
Hinrich-Sefalosha-TMAC-Thomas-Noah

Hinrich-Gordon-TMAC-Thomas-Noah

Hinrich-TMAC-Tyrus-Gooden-Noah

etc. etc. etc.

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No.

I'll "gamble" with the under-25's.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 25, 2008 3:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Then look forward

to years of us being middle of the pack at best....

We still have enough depth to be middle of the pack with my proposed trade when TMAC's (or similar big named veteran not named Antawn Jamison that we likely could get in a package of Deng-Hughes and draft pick or Deng-Gordon-draft pick) hurt. Having a TMAC, etc really would put us over the hump.

I think we're just going to disagree on the whole Tyrus thing. I'd be fine keeping him at the 4 if we clearly had a star 2 or 3 guard (all star/superstar) but if we don't and knowing that we have a strong big body role playing 4, perhaps that's where we should push Tyrus. I think it's his "natural" position given his size anyway.

We'll see how Tyrus fares with more PT against the Duncan's, Boozer's, etc of the world.

TOnight's game against hte more perimeter Dirk might not tell the fulls tory--though I'd love it if Tyrus demolished Dirk.....and I know Tyrus has also done well against the more perimeter playing (though skilled enough to do both) Rasheed Wallace......

I want to see how he does with time against the Garnett's, Duncan's, Stoudemires, heck even Big Ben Wallace's (now that he's a 4) before I'm sold that that's his best position. He's not strong enough and too short for all but Big Ben....

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Stoudamire's a center

So is Duncan.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 25, 2008 4:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

lol

not according to the spurs, who had him changed to forward to avoid losing his streak of all-star starts or whatever.

by Jaina on Feb 25, 2008 4:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Duncan's a center.

So is Stoudamire.

heh

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 25, 2008 4:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i was hoping

the eyeroll was indicative of how dumb i thought that was. duncan himself didn't even care.

by Jaina on Feb 25, 2008 5:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It did.

I just wanted to say it again, but in reverse. Thus, the 'heh'. Yeah, I'm a tool.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 25, 2008 6:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

In today's NBA, Thomas has shown he fits at the 4

While it'd be great to see him also develop a midrange/perimeter game, that'd be icing on the cake. Moved to the 3, his athletic advantage becomes less pronounced, meaning that he'd need a much more developed perimeter skill set to thrive. While he's shown the potential for a good perimeter/midrange game for a 4, that doesn't mean that he'd be able to develop in those areas to the point of succeeding at the 3.

by snley on Feb 25, 2008 3:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

They're a coach away...

Phil Weber and David Thorpe. Just higher them both (unlikely, I know) for the next 3 years and see what happens. Seriously. Please? Just take the chance. Gamble on it. (He'll be cheap, too, Jerry.)

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 25, 2008 3:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ok

So we move our best shotblocker to a wing position and start Gooden in his place...and our defense will get better? I hope you're right...but you're probably overrating Gooden's defense. If we actually had a defensive force better than Thomas at PF I might agree with you...until then...

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 1:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think Gooden can give good back up

minutes at PF, but also at Center if we don't want to go into super slo-mo, or if we want to stay smallish instead of going giantish with Aaron Gray. I see Gooden as kind a swing-man reserve player, who should get plenty of minutes.

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

did my post

SAY that Gooden was better than Thomas? No. I said what I said. Gooden or Hughes had no clue what was going on last night. Anytime either of them was on the floor it was more or less a freestyle offense being played.

You can't compare one of Tyrus' good games to Gooden's first game with the team for the simple fact that Tyrus knows the plays, the calls, the sets, and knows where to be...but Gooden did not.

In the end, I think Tyrus is better, but saying that he "outplayed" Gooden is a stretch...at least in the sense of it being Gooden's first game with the team.

by ScottieCartwright on Feb 25, 2008 2:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Knowing the offense

doesn't stop you from making shots. Or in the case of Hughes be an excuse for taking stupid shots. Gooden and Thomas played about the same minutes last night and took the same amount of shots. One player was clearly better than the other, 1st game or not.

by Scotter on Feb 25, 2008 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

eh maybe

I can just imagine if the trade was the other way around though. If TT was traded to Cleveland and in his first game he missed a bunch of shots and was pretty mediocre, everyone would be yelling "but it's just his first game!"

Again, I think Tyrus is the better of the two...I just don't agree with the "he outplayed him" argument....at least not for last night.

Now if someone says that a week or two from now, then it will be fine :)

by ScottieCartwright on Feb 25, 2008 2:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Except Gooden has a six year

track record in the NBA. What you saw was pretty consistent with his career. He'll be active, rebound well, make about 2 out of every 5 jump shots, and he'll make a couple of stupid passes or defensive plays every game.

by Scotter on Feb 25, 2008 2:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

With Hughes to play back up (starting?)

minutes at 1 and 2, TT should never again be forced to play the 3.

However, now that he's getting some reasonable minutes, his assist line is starting to move into second place behind Kirk. I see this as very interesting. TT might actually have the most deverse game on the team. How would that be for Skiles--who always treated Tyrus like he had no game.

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 9:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Seriously, though...

Couldn't agree more. Oooo... he played well, we have a "legit four", he shoots jump shots, let's play him at the 3. Um... no.

He was below average all season mixing in at the three. He's been outstanding lately as a starting PF. Let's give the guy every opportunity to become a starting PF for the rest of the year (at least). He might get banged around and not able to defend some of the bigger four's, but he'll absolutely destroy them on the offensive side.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 25, 2008 10:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

He's so much quicker than the other 4's he goes up against. Also, just because he's a good passer doesn't mean we should move him out of position to throw those passes.

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 10:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought they

played a good first half and in my mind when Noah left with his injured ankle the team lost it's energy. I really like Noah and TT starting. The team flows well with them in there. I'm really proud of TT for making the most of his playing time.

The newbies had some good plays but not good enough to earn them starting spots. BG really struggled last night.

Hopefully they rebound from last nights loss and get a win tonight.

by sue369 on Feb 25, 2008 8:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

If only Gordon were a consistent performer

You really need his scoring on the road. He should be able to do a lot better than 2-11 against Alston and Head.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 8:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He's a streaky

scorer. We get what we get from him.

by sue369 on Feb 25, 2008 9:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I agree

if he's not gonna improve his ball handling he'll just have the be a punch off the bench. When hes hot stick with him when hes not take him out. Cuz the team seems stand around watching when he's on the floor from time to time.

by Takeaseat on Feb 25, 2008 9:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I really thought it was a mistake

to leave gordon out there so long last night. he was doing nothing and when he's not producing offensively, it's not like he brings something great to the defensive end.

by Jaina on Feb 25, 2008 9:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

with this trade i really feel for Ben he passed up on a big contract and i truly believe that with addition of Larry he's not gonna get as long of a letch which could ruin that big contract shot he thought he would yeild in the off-season.

by Takeaseat on Feb 25, 2008 10:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's a really tricky question,

and one I'm glad I don't have to decide. On the one hand, all it takes is one or two makes and Ben can be off to the races. When Ben was 1-7 last night I mentioned that we'd get a glimpse into how much faith Boylan has in Gordon. He left him in another few minutes, then yanked him.

It looked to me that Boylan feels that in LH he's got another option for offense if Ben isn't puttin' `em up. I think this will be interesting to see how it plays out.

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 9:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Tyrus is a BEAST!

What a performance... that guy was all over the court(shooting jumpers, blocking shots and diving all over the place). My only question is this the real Tryus. Cuz if it is this guys is gonna be a allstar next year! :)

by Takeaseat on Feb 25, 2008 9:22 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I think it

is the real Tyrus. Good for him for making the most of his playing time. I'll be very disappointed if he doesn't stay in the starting lineup.

by sue369 on Feb 25, 2008 9:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm really happy for him

It gets me excited wathing him play. I wish there was another way to put it, but there it is.

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't really have a

lisp, even though I may write like it.

by eGirl on Feb 25, 2008 10:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You're gonna jinx it!

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Feb 25, 2008 10:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I am really

excited about watching this young team play. Once they get a little more familiar this team will be a fun team to watch. How fun was it to see us play 5 on 5 offensivley for the first time in 3 years??

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Feb 25, 2008 9:36 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Wow. The Tyrus Thomas love...

I love all the revelations: Thomas is sooooo good!!! As if it weren't "known" by anyone. I guess it's better late than never.

You know if it continues, Sam Smith and Boylan and everyone will say "Thomas finally gets it." Instead of, you know, them just playing him more. In support of this point, I remind everyone that Thomas has continually said that he has no clue what he has to learn to get more playing time, as recently as two weeks ago.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 25, 2008 10:35 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

we'll hear

he's more focused and understands his role... We've been saying that with playing time will come mistakes but in order to learn from those mistakes he must stay on the court after the mistake

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Feb 25, 2008 10:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

also

that jump hook off the glass was a thing of beauty. Post moves???

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Feb 25, 2008 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The confidence

The NBA is mostly about confidence. The scorers have it.

That turnaround jump hook off the glass was yet another move we haven't seen from Tyrus. I was impressed. However, I was more impressed by a 4th quarter 17 foot jumper. Tyrus pulled up in transition, elevated, fired, and didn't even hesitate. I thought the shot was flat and would brick out, Tyrus just back peddled to the other end of the court. He knew it was nothing but nylon.

When his jump shooting starts showing up in scouting reports you might want to get the DVR working. I'm expecting highlight dunks with a pump fake, dribble, two step tomahawk.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 11:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Actually

That jumphook off the glass is his most used post up move. He was doing it in college and did it several times already this season. That's pretty much his go-to post move

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 11:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hmm, first time I had seen it

Are you sure you're not confusing the turn to baseline jump hook off glass with his crossing the paint baby hook?

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He's done the jump hook

off the glass from the right block all year, and several times in the last few games.

by Scotter on Feb 25, 2008 11:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This move right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHnHErnA9Lg
about 45 seconds into that video. That's the move you're talking about right? He's done that several times this season

by Parrotman on Feb 25, 2008 11:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I've always

been a fan of Tyrus. I liked him last season so nothing new this season.

by sue369 on Feb 25, 2008 10:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cool.

Although you've also been a huge proponent of the "I hope Tyrus gets it" campaign.

(and that previous comment was not directed at you by ANY means, just so you know)

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 25, 2008 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm just

glad he got it. ;-)

We definitely don't see things the same way and that's a good thing.

by sue369 on Feb 25, 2008 12:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Taking players out with foul trouble

I never understood this. We have an 11 man rotation, yet Boylan (and most coaches do this) continually takes out players who get into foul trouble early on. Two fouls in the 1st? Three by halftime? Take a seat.

I'd rather see guys get legitimate playing time so they can get into a rhythm. If Thabo picks up two fouls in his first four minutes off the bench, so what? Keep him in so he can make a positive impact with his stint on the court. If he picks up a third foul, that's fine. I'm willing to sacrifice a couple foul-outs to get consistent minutes from each rotation.

by YaoPau on Feb 25, 2008 11:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

i hear ya

but it's in the NBA coaches handbook or something.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 25, 2008 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I've always felt the same thing

I hate that coaches all follow the same rule.

If you're gonna sit the guy down for a huge amount of time after he gets his second foul, it's just the same as his time gone if he got fouled out

by Option27 on Feb 25, 2008 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It depends on the fouls

If the fouls are bad fouls and the player is showing signs of fatigue(most often cited reason) you have to take him out.

The bad subs are when the player is removed because he's hit the foul limit and never returns to game after time has passed. That's just stupid.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This Duhon debate is quite intriguing.

I'm seeing great supporting arguments for both sides. Really. Let me get the popcorn.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Feb 25, 2008 11:25 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Baffling.

At least someone is enjoying it. I find it baffling. Did Duhon's mom sign on to the site?

by cranscape on Feb 25, 2008 11:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 25, 2008 1:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Is it a debate?

I'm seeing Duhon compared to Danny Ainge, Dennis Johnson, Tony Parker, Derek Fisher, and Steve Kerr.

This is, as George Karl said about JR Smith's 4th quarter shooting in Chicago, "fantasyland".

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 11:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and to think I had nothing to do with it.

Baby Bulls II?

by bullshooter on Feb 25, 2008 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought Tyrus should have stopped Scola more

A couple times it looked like Tyrus was going to block him, but Scola willed it in. I also noticed people drive the lane and pass due to Tyrus' shot blocking. I think Tyrus should be starting for the rest of the year, the kid is developing a complete game, similar but probably better than AK47.

by armstrong2389 on Feb 25, 2008 11:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I hope when you said

Similar but probably better than AK47, you meant he has the potential to be similar but probably better than AK47, cuz Tyrus ain't there yet.

I do think though in hopefully just another year Tyrus will add another dimension to his game (shooting) and voila, he'll be our all star.....

The guy's just such a freakish athlete playing on a team that until yesterday had been so devoid of athleticism.

NOAH'S one man fast break steal/slam was one of the best Bulls basketball moment of the year though, even though it happened in a loss for us....that was AWESOME!!!

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 12:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Noah

Noah was so fast his own ankle couldn't keep up with him. I have to admit that I was worried to see him dribble the length of the court by himself. It wasn't the prettiest thing ever, but he got it done.

by cranscape on Feb 25, 2008 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It was a textbook dribble

When you're not a strong dribbler use your body to shield the defender.

These are fundamentals. Noah knows them. He excels at them. He takes to teaching, but he's very used to winning so he might act up.

I hope he plays tonight.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 12:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It was awesome.

by sue369 on Feb 25, 2008 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Great play...

but I also loved Tyrus just blowing by Yao.

by Jaina on Feb 25, 2008 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

scola

scola is craft and overall above average player and should be on the bulls instead of duhon. Spurs trading him for...nothing (well cap relief). How many dumb trades have been made in the past 10 months?

by Sambossanova on Feb 25, 2008 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

That was an awful trade by the Spurs.

Imagine if they had Scola coming off their bench or helpign them out when Timmy D needs some rest.

Heck, starting Scola at the 4 and Duncan at the 5 would be far better than Oberto....

That was almost as dumb as Phx trading Marion for Shaq, almost....or Cleveland banking their future on a diminishing talent like Wallace, who's a cap killer.

by majoyenrac on Feb 25, 2008 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Spurs didn't think they could buy him out

RC Buford was expecting the Scola contractual buyout to be much more expensive than it actually was. Rockets may have had an inside track on that cost.

Noc's buyout from Tau Ceramica was 2.5 million US dollars.

The Kids Must Stay In The Picture!!!

by NBA Observer on Feb 25, 2008 1:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Scola's good, but he got a tad lucky I think

That fadeaway bank from straight on was a prayer. Equally lucky were the two misses that somehow were tipped right back to him for layups.

More importantly, though, was the matchup situation late in the game where Boylan had Gooden on Yao and Tyrus on Battier. To me, Tyrus is about a 4/10 defending the perimeter and a 9/10 defending under the hoop. I would've liked to have seen Gooden switch to Battier (who won't drive by him) and leave Thomas inside to guard Yao and alter shots. It seems a little backwards but I think it's how we have to play it.

by YaoPau on Feb 25, 2008 6:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs