Where is the bread and butter?
One of the big things talked about this past summer after drafting Rose was how he would make Tyrus and Joakim better players by his passing ability and his ability to create.
Now maybe it's early but that really hasn't been the case so far.
Why?
I really thought Tyrus Thomas would be throwing down monster dunks from Rose all season. Why hasn't Vinny used Thomas more to play off Rose? Why isn't Thomas being taught that once you set the pick you should roll down to the basket looking for a pass?
Really this is what angers me about some of our pro teams in this city. They draft a player and don't use his strengths. Then they thrive in other teams systems. I realize it's on the players too but Vinny should be running the high pick and roll all night. It should be their bread and butter.
They also mentioned how Chris Paul made Chandler better. And he has but it's all from one simple pick and roll where Chandler plays the alley-oop pass. This is what I had visioned for Rose and Thomas. But nothing. Like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkSCQBpDKzA&feature=related
This is the perfect play for Rose and Thomas because it creates movement and keeps Thomas near the hoop for put back tips instead of long jump shots. For Rose it gives him a bailout pass when the drive is stopped. Not only does it help Rose it would open up a shooter because now you have someone helping on Tyrus.
I was calling for this play when Rose got blocked and Thomas cleaned it up. Alley-oop to Tyrus Thomas it was the perfect play and it happened in away but not intentional.
You need a bread and butter play in this league just look at Malone and Stockton or GP and Kemp. Now Chris Paul and Chandler.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u80lBvwLTzw
Everyone on Philly is paying attention to Rose while Thomas goes untouched. This was the play I was calling and by luck it worked. With this play Thomas can be productive along side Rose.
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Its true, prior to the season i really thought Thomas would benefit the most out of Rose…kinda like Chandler and Paul..obv not as seasoned but the same concept should be reasonable to believe since Thomas can jump outta the roof and Rose can make plays..yet i havent seen much
this is from last nights game:
Rose, who had 18 points and nine assists along with five turnovers in 43 minutes, thought he was hit on the play.
“A little bump, but I can’t complain about it. They didn’t call it. No excuses from me,” Rose said. “That’s going to be with any team now, they’re just going to wait for me, knowing I’m a driver. I’ve got to get used to it.”
This will prob force rose to make more passes outta the drive or get his teamates involved a bit more so that Rose has more than one way to hurt the opponent…keep the defense on their toes…it allows rose to pass it up or if the d is playin the the kick out rose can take it to the hoop…regardless its still early, and by mid season im sure we will be season a much more strategic attack
by markoni22 on Dec 4, 2008 11:24 AM CST 0 recs
i'm hoping for some TT and Rose action to
"If there’s any haters in here right now that don’t have nobody to hate on, feel free to hate on me." - A.P.N.S.
by Belize on Dec 4, 2008 11:50 AM CST 0 recs
Thomas is just stupid
The guy has no court awareness at all. He should be able to blow by most PF’s in this league with his quickness, agility, and speed and get to the lane at will. He plays like a guard. Thomas needs to use his strengths, and maybe vinny is the one who has to tell him how. Cause he just doesn’t get it. I mean the ratio at how often we see him shoot outside compared to how often we see him shoot in the paint is ridiculous. Tyrus needs to get smarter, and that can only come with court time.
by PTBALLER1523 on Dec 4, 2008 12:03 PM CST 0 recs
The coaching staff needs to work with him then. Show him film of Chandler and Paul.
They need to have him play off Rose in more pick and rolls. Have him cutting to the hoop. Why haven’t we seen any back screens on Thomas’s own guy for an alley-oop. I mean if you throw the ball up to him more times then not he will make the play or get fouled. By the way he’s a pretty good free throw shooter.
Jordan and Pippen ran it pretty well. How many times would you see Jordan on the wing lobbing for Pippen who would come off back screens. Thomas can make plays if you put him in the right spots. I mean they could be ESPN highlights every night if they would just use Thomas and Rose together in pick and rolls.
I mean teams are keying on Rose now and when he gets in pick and roll that will bother the defense because he’s such a scoring threat and then Tyrus’s man has to help with Rose. Bam lob to Thomas or kick it out to BG or Deng for a spot up 2. They could even mix it up and run Deng to Pick for Rose.
by ImmanuelKant on
Dec 4, 2008 12:27 PM CST
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I know you didn't just compare Tyrus to Scottie Pippen
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on
Dec 4, 2008 4:16 PM CST
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your reading comprehension needs work
He said that Jordan and Pippen ran the play well, providing an example of successful lobs off of back screens. He makes a good point, if Thomas comes off of back screens getting a lob from Rose…that’s a dunk or two at the line nearly every time.
"..what you mean? I'm a legend like Kareem!"
by CommittedToExcellence on
Dec 4, 2008 4:32 PM CST
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everything comes down to coaching....
its that simple……..if we had phil jackson still running the show….my goodness……top 5 in the east easily……it really is about the coaching…..hell look at the knicks this year…not great obviously, but the difference is apparent
by masputo on
Dec 5, 2008 1:21 AM CST
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well, yeah...
but if my brother had tits he’d be my sister
gotta play the game with what you have or make a move.
"..what you mean? I'm a legend like Kareem!"
by CommittedToExcellence on
Dec 5, 2008 9:27 AM CST
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I agree, but
I am surprised that’s the only thing that needs to change to make him your sister.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on
Dec 6, 2008 12:31 AM CST
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Chandler
was always more experienced than Tyrus…..he was given all the time on the court to learn through mistakes pre Skiles and looked like his confidence was just lost.
Tyrus looks insanely confident, but just hasn’t learned the new offense enough.
I don’t understand why the Bulls won’t say “we’re going to rebuild and play our young guys”….that puts pressure on VDN and crew to play more veterans who aren’t in our long term plans, rather than have the others learn through their mistakes.
Rose’s passing will be fine, but right now he can’t pass to Tyrus often because Tyrus is making dumb mistakes with the passes, he tries to pass to Joakim, but Joakim can’t get the ball into the basket because he’s not strong enough….
And Drew like you said is spending too much time at the top of the key or jump shooting.
by majoyenrac on Dec 4, 2008 12:33 PM CST 0 recs
I agree with you
Vinnie can play the vets, and to what ultimate end? TT ought to be a senior this year; Noah a rookie. Not to compare either to Rose, but just imagine if they were given the latitude to make bad plays and grow like he is. They should be given the rookie lotto treatment this season, and most fans won’t blame VDN one bit if they play sub .500, as it’s obvious that he’s working the team like a coach who’s going to be here a while.
Does anyone on the planet think that a lineup of Rose-Gordon-Hughes-Deng-Noc is going to compete with any playoff team this year? So what’s the point of giving them the important minutes? Thomas could only benefit from being handed the starting job and 35+ minutes per night if they plan on keeping him, and if they’re thinking of moving him, I don’t think the short minutes and reduced stats are building his value.
I’d prefer to lose and hope our starting lineup is improving from PT than win an occasional extra game and know the ultimate depressing outcome of featuring Gooden, Noc and Hughes.
by California Al on
Dec 4, 2008 10:56 PM CST
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Dare I say that Chandler is a better player then Thomas.
At least Tyson understood how to play hard. Tyson didn’t play alot under Skiles for two reasons: Skiles didn’t like him, and he was always in foul trouble. Thomas doesn’t play alot because he follows every good play/game with a boneheaded one. I believe it mainly comes down to motovation. We may have to accept the fact that Thomas is the second coming of Stromile Swift. Extremely talented but not able to put it together due to space inbetween his ears.
"Rest satisified with doing well and leave others to talk of you as they please"
by Bigred15 on Dec 4, 2008 12:40 PM CST 0 recs
I agree Chandler always had fire and played hard thats what I liked about him.
You wish Thomas could play 100% all the time I guess I just can’t understand why at times he looks like he’s jogging and thinking about video games.
Also I wish we could just relax when he gets the ball. How can you be 6’9 and not have like a simple jump hook.
I think he gets frustrated when a coach tells him something how many times have you seen him wave off Vinny?That pisses me off.
I really hope they don’t give up on Tyrus. I think he can be better than Swift. But it’s really up to him. I’m just waiting for the light bulb to go off.
by ImmanuelKant on
Dec 4, 2008 12:54 PM CST
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Two games ago,
in the Philly re-match at the UC that went to OT: In the 2nd half Tyrus slowly rolled off s/r in the lane with his eyes on his footwear. Remember? He was open but didn’t get the pass ‘cause he wasn’t looking.
Rose should’ve hit him in the head with the ball. Just like Magic Johnson said you do.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Dec 4, 2008 3:30 PM CST 0 recs
Mike Sweetney took it with him on the way out of town!
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Dec 4, 2008 3:31 PM CST 4 recs
the PnR
The Bulls use a pick and pop with Rose and Gooden a lot with Deng and BG as shooters and Noah/Ty/Gray on the baseline. CP3 and Chandler use a pick and roll where Tyson goes right to the rim after the pick, and their other big, usually David West, pops from the baseline to the high post area or somewhere 15 foot or so from the basket. They also employ Peja and Posey and Mo Pete as shooters to space the court. The Bulls can alter their pick and roll a little bit and will get more production out of Ty or Noah if we use the picker as a roller and not a popper and we can have Drew Gooden be the popper and not cause so much trouble for us.
by NamingRightsOnSale on Dec 4, 2008 6:39 PM CST 0 recs
Excellent Fanpost
We are not using the talent on this team. That being said Tyrus seems so talented and so stupid. In the Philly, UC double-overtime game he was effective in the 4th period and then cost them the game in overtime. You are correct that Tyrus should be a perfect fit with Rose. Vinny may not be using him correctly but I am getting tired of his boneheaded plays.
by chgobr on Dec 4, 2008 7:54 PM CST 0 recs
Lets not confuse talent and skill with athleticism.
Tyrus Thomas is not talented. He is an athlete, and thats about it. He can’t hit a mid-range jumper and has no touch around the basket. He’s got no hook and a very wild handle. What he does have is two pogo sticks………. and thats it. He has immense potential because if he ever does learn to shoot from 15-18 feet, defenders will have to crowd him and then his speed makes him a very tough matchup. But until he learns even one offensive move he will strictly be a dunker/shot blocker/rebounder, the type of player that can start on a team with four other very good starters(the Pistons of four or five years ago) or come off of the bench for a team with a better option at the four or five, kind of like Jason Maxiell, just with much more potential. Thomas just needs a tongue-lashing and lots of hours in the gym with a ball and a rebounder.
by dakoose on Dec 5, 2008 12:00 AM CST 0 recs
The problem
OK. Tyrus puts back a Rose blocked shot for a dunk. Awesome.
But watch that video again. Look at Tyrus. What in the heck is he doing? He just sits there. The game was closing out so maybe that was where he was supposed to be. He crashed when it was the right time. But time and time again he just sits out there around the top of the circle loafing.
Record a game. Watch it through one time to get the whole game. Then watch the game again and only watch Tyrus. I know he can get better, but he has so many “what the hell is he doing” moments it’s very easy to get down on his potential. Most of it is just not being aware of where he should go.
Rose wants to pass. But he wants to pass to open space where the receiver SHOULD BE. This takes time. Paul and Chandler have this because Paul knows where he wants to pass it and Chandler knows how he has to get there to receive that pass.
Maybe Rose and Thomas can watch football passing drills. You never throw to the stationary open man. You throw to the open space where the moving receiver is heading towards. It’s all timing.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 5, 2008 10:41 AM CST 1 recs
Isn't this basketball 101 you learn in High School
This is what I don’t get about Tyrus. His mistakes are ones that would make me question a High School player’s basketball IQ no less an NBA pro. They are so bad my jaw drops. Sometimes he makes an outlet pass under our basket where he seems semi-sleeping that the other team grabs for an easy 2.
by chgobr on
Dec 5, 2008 3:06 PM CST
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I think he's not quite right in the head
I don’t know if it’s clinical depression or something else, but even before the Bulls drafted him he was a somewhat strange, suspicious and moody guy by the accounts I’ve read.
I have a feeling his issues are something along those lines. Because, when he does seem “into it”, I see him make pretty smart plays. So I don’t think it’s that he just consistently doesn’t know what to do, it’s that he has a hard time consistently doing it.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on
Dec 5, 2008 6:56 PM CST
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I agree, but what do you do now? is he stupid or is there a clashing of wills?
Many similiar players learn in high school how to play defense and offensive sets for their position repetitively. Consistent drills. Tyrus apparently never learn. Or he played and practice as a guard. So intutively he plays like a guard, floating along the perimeter. Some of basketball IQ has to be attributed to repetitive experience.
His college experience was so brief, therefore he probably didn’t absorb much there. Interesting he notes that at LSU they had a particular role for him to play and that was “stay near the basket”. Thinking back, his comments were “I can do much more, it was just the coaching staff @LSU only had me play a prescribed role: "stay inside”. The Bulls coaches have given him a long leash, too long to allow him to think he’s a guard!
Might Tyrus now at the level of a raw athletic high school player being told to learn to play the position of a Big. …basketball 101
Still having some resistance, desiring to be a guard in the mold of Tracy “off injuried” McGrady?
man up!
by exult463 on
Dec 5, 2008 6:19 PM CST
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This is a very good possibility
I remember reading that he played point guard all through high school.
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on
Dec 6, 2008 9:51 AM CST
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His statement earlier this year of wanting to become a 3 point threat reinforces that mind set that he may be stuck in.
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on
Dec 6, 2008 9:53 AM CST
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Project
I think Tyrus does have some sort of mental issue, his head is never really in the game. He might have some kind of concentration disorder, not ADD but something like it. When he is focused, he makes great plays, but I dunno….he is so frustrating. there is no reason why he should have 3 alley oops a game minimum. Plus he can beat PFs off the dribble, he did that somewhat effectively last year. Remember when he got the and1 on Marvin Williams. He needs to go to a sports psychologist first off and second he needs to be placed no further than 10 feet from the basket. He always flares off when he makes a screen.
by C Smoove on Dec 5, 2008 10:11 PM CST 0 recs
His body language tells you he can't take the coach telling him what to do.
Tyrus just doesn’t get it. Who knows if he ever will. It truly will be sad to put Tyrus in the Brad Sellers, Marcus Fizer group of NBA burn outs. I thought he would take this team over and make it his. I thought he could be the man. I remember that playoff series against the Pistons when it seemed like he was the only one who played like a man. Hinrich, Deng wet the bed in that series. Then that was the end of the upstart Bulls. The rest is History.
by ImmanuelKant on
Dec 5, 2008 10:37 PM CST
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"His body language tells you he can't take the coach telling him what to do"
I haven’t hear, notice personally or read this on BaB. Yet! is seems highly likely or 100% dead on assessment as you watch him play.
man up!
by exult463 on
Dec 6, 2008 6:00 PM CST
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let's not get into this again
we had a whole “body language” argument about kirk and his potential jealousy of rose.
by Jaina on
Dec 7, 2008 11:46 AM CST
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also
He is still super raw, unlike most NBA players, I don’t think he played much organized basketball…a little in HS and that one year at LSU so he is still super duper raw. When we drafted him, we knew he was a project. But he should be further along. A friend of mine at my job went to HS with Amare and supposedly Amare was pretty shitty during most of his HS years. Tyrus needs a big man coach ASAP, Noah too.
by C Smoove on Dec 5, 2008 10:13 PM CST 0 recs
When Chris Paul dribbles,
the defenders have to honor his passing skills much more, because his teammates can hit open jumpers, whether it’s off the pick-and-roll (West) or the draw and dish (Peja). But it starts with the pick-and-roll. This means that when help defenders go to the shooters, CP can either penetrate or toss the ’oop to Chandler.
For Rose, the defenders don’t have to honor his passing skills as much in the half-court set, because the Bulls haven’t proven able to score on pick-and-rolls. This means that help defenders can simply shut down the lane to prevent Rose’s penetration, or else stay home on their offensive player. Rose therefore doesn’t freeze the defense like Paul does, meaning less cuts to the basket for Tyrus, and therefore less alley-oops.
It seems like the first building block would be an effective pick-and-roll, and then from there the Bulls should be able to incorporate the back door cut / alley-oop by Tyrus.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Dec 6, 2008 12:40 AM CST 0 recs









