Bucks 97, Bulls 90: Maybe in 6 more games Vinny will realize Nocioni is giving him nothing
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 3, 2008 10:53 PM CST
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PrintBefore what I think is the main point of this game, some other call-outs of bad:
Gooden put in his second straight stinker (1-11 from the field), and his shot selection still has me thinking he really thinks he can do it all. The offense in general was no good at the start, a lot like the night before: Gooden and Gordon forcing shots, and Rose with a sloppy floor game (5 TOs overall), and Rose wasn't hitting jumpers tonight either. The frontcourt did a poor job of securing defensive rebounds, letting former PER-hero Dan Gadzuric get 7 offensive boards in 21 minutes.
The good was pretty much Luol Deng, who looked a lot more active on offense. And Larry Hughes, who was 4-8 from the field and only a couple were the typical awful Larry shots. I have no expectations for him, but I have to say he hasn't been absolutely terrible. He still offers nothing outside of volume shooting, so even when shots go in he's not doing that much...but it's better than the alternative. If he's going to play 24-ish minutes and be like this, maybe he'll regain some value before he gets sick of pretending he's ok as a role player and tries to kill the team from the inside.
On to Nocioni, whose trade value is plummeting to the point where an expiring contract with no working limbs would be fantastic return. There's nearly 4 more years of this, everyone!
But in Noc's defense, he's doing a great job showing very plainly that he just doesn't have it. It's on Vinny to pick up on that not-so-subtle cue. Instead he left Nocioni in for two disastrous stints:
First half:
Enter the Noc: 23-20 Bucks, 10:31 2nd quarter (Richard Jefferson enters as well)
Exit the Noc: 48-35 Bucks, 2:51 2nd quarter
Noc? 7:40 min, 3 Fouls, 0-0FG, 1Reb. Jefferson scores 10 points
Second half:
Enter the Noc!: Start of the 4th quarter, 76-72 Bucks
Exit the Noc, with clenched fists: 87-75 Bucks 7:32 4th quarter
Noc's hair? 4:28 min, 0-1FG, 1pt, 2 TOs
This is a guy who's given the team nothing the past several games, so Vinny should've been going for the hook at the first sign of awful. That first half stint was especially bad, as Vinny's next move after putting in Noc at the 3 was leaving him in as Deng returned and shifting him to the 4, first paired with Gooden and then Gray. (as a reminder: always a bad idea). In comparison, by this same time in the game Tyrus only had a bit over 5 minutes after one of his best games of the year. (VDN made a similarly odd decision in the 2nd half: after Noc put them in that big hole he went small...with Gray as the lone big man. Why?)
It was only 12 minutes, but a disastrous dozen for Nocioni. He really doesn't have to play at all. Thabo could be re-introduced to professional basketball (3 minutes against the Spurs followed by 3 DNPs), Larry (ugh, I know) could be at the 3 against smaller lineups, Tyrus/Noah/Gooden/Gray can handle nearly all the minutes at the 4 and 5. Granted, the Bulls weren't ahead when Noc entered the game either, because those aforementioned frontcourt guys like Gooden and Noah weren't offering much...but Noc was not only not offering anything, but actively taking away.
For the time being, he shouldn't see the court. Make up a leg injury or something, it's likely not that far from the truth.
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yikes
glad i missed this one
Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team.
-- Scottie Pippen
by Orlando Woolridge on Dec 3, 2008 11:04 PM CST reply actions
Sorry for the double post btw
"That’s the reason why you are on the court—to take someone’s heart." - Air Force One
i missed the game
due to lack of sleep from early-morning procrastination.
is Noc like the Bulls’ version of Rex Grossman now? he had good games and now he has suck games.
"Gooden for three..." *spit-take* WAIT...Did tha- did he really...
I think Rex Grossman plays a different sport
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 3, 2008 11:38 PM CST up reply actions
now that was just
mean. mean manblogger
"That’s the reason why you are on the court—to take someone’s heart." - Air Force One
well... yea..
i meant in that there was Good Rex/Bad Rex
And now we (sort-of) have Good Noc/Suck Noc. Except Noc had his decent games before the trip, and now his sucky games have come as of late.
meh maybe i should go back to sleep.
"Gooden for three..." *spit-take* WAIT...Did tha- did he really...
by chibullsfan03 on Dec 4, 2008 7:16 AM CST up reply actions
Isnt Kirk Hinrich The Grossman of Basketball?
Thats the only reason im a fan of grossman (im joking by the way, i dont watch football)
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
I think to be the rex of the nba you..
gotta be :
1. with a team for a while
2. go to the championship and blow it
3. piss off everyone on your city
4. Coach still has your back
5. Have multiple “comebacks” as a starter
6. overated is an understatement
dunno, anyone in the nba that fits that..maybe Kwame Brown
"That’s the reason why you are on the court—to take someone’s heart." - Air Force One
Sort of
Grossman is almost ineffective all the time because of his nature. He’s 6’0" with a low release so he can put velocity on his passes. That’s the way it is for him, but it’s awful to utilize in the NFL without extreme mobility because the lineman are 6’4" with 7’ reaches.
Noc is different in that there are players and positions where he is highly effective and then there are players and positions where he is highly ineffective. Richard Jefferson as the 3 is one of the highly ineffective situations for Noc. Jefferson is a free throw beggar with poor shot selection. You put a defender on him that will make him take jump shots and will take away the penetration(Thabo? DNP-CD, suck it Vinny). With Noc guarding Jefferson it’s a free for all penetration festival that might as well be filmed in the San Fernando Valley. There was so much penetration the game should have been rated X.
On offense it just got worse. Skiles know the Noc dribble penetration weaknesses. He doesn’t have enough control on drives to secure the ball. Get some hands down there and you can tip it away. Ditto with Deng. The two of them get into the paint with the basketball a foot away from their chest. They have to enter the paint like running backs securing the football and then elevate to get the shot up. They’ll either get the shot or get fouled, but as long as that ball is being held like a stinky diaper away from their body the defense has far too great of an opportunity for finger tip steals.
This was so bad it made Jefferson, Redd, and Villanueva look like stellar defenders. Please ignore the fact that our players were driving past them at will and getting almost nothing from it.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 4, 2008 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
noah, noc, and gray...
all three of them really don’t look like anything more than garbage time players right now. noc must be injured. since they have him for 4 years, there’s no sense in killing him now. just shut him down and see if he gets better. as for our two centers, gray was never an nba-level talent, and noah is making me wish the bulls took hawes…
I was looking at the box score
why didn’t Noah get a chance to come back in? 9 minutes 5 rebounds and 2 blocks doesn’t seem that bad. IS he really THAT out of shape? If he is, why don’t they have him riding a bike or some shit on the sidelines.
i keep wondering these things myself
i havent seen the past two games, but i keep seeing these numbers for noah like 15 mins 7 boards 1 block 1 steal. i mean, has he been that bad on offense? (not being sarcastic, but that’s a legit question. haven’t seen a whole lot of the bulls in the past 4 or 5 games or so. from the sounds of things, it seems as though i’ve saved myself a lot of torture).
he's been bad on offense
but given the alternatives, so what…
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 12:02 AM CST up reply actions
everyone gets so worried about each players offensive production. let rose score and distribute.
let bg get his. everyone else can take turns. the bulls cannot continue to give up offensive rebounds like this. dan gadzuric? come on!! he’s tyrus thomas ultra light. how do you not keep thomas out there to prevent just what happened?
Cashing checks and having sex.
Vinny is an idiot
The Bucks owned us on the glass in the 3rd quarter despite Ben’s 7-8 shooting. They had 12. We had 6.
Later the Bucks attacked Aaron Gray 4 possessions in a row WITH LUKE F’N RIDNOUR. They ran Gray off the high screen and just killed us. Gray was too slow to protect and too slow to recover. That’s his weakness. I wonder if Skiles knows his former players’ weaknesses.
Vinny got outcoached by a guy that’s been fired twice for the same reasons.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 4, 2008 12:59 PM CST up reply actions
He did get oucoached, but it seems as if outcoaching Vinny is not that tough
We all obviously have our own prefered lineups…. But all I ask for is for VDN to keep it consistent. I don’t care who he thinks the best lineup is. Just keep it consistent! Im always looking to see who’s gonna be out there at any given time. That’s not how it should be.
Let's hire Sam Mitchell
Just to see what can be done with NORMAL coach and Normal rotations.
General manager needs the ability to foretell what is going to happen tomorrow,next week, next month, and next year. And to have the ability afterwards to explain why it didn't happen.
Sir Paxdorf.
...... sam mitchell is not normal. the guy is a joke.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 4, 2008 12:02 AM CST up reply actions
He was coach of the year just to yeras ago.
Maybe he lost something but he is ain’t joke,IMHO.
General manager needs the ability to foretell what is going to happen tomorrow,next week, next month, and next year. And to have the ability afterwards to explain why it didn't happen.
Sir Paxdorf.
I think Sam's had similar issues
Vinny could have normal rotations with a more normal roster…however this overcommitment to Noc that’s flying in the face of what everyone sees happening, it’s a problem.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 12:03 AM CST up reply actions
I haven't watched for a couple of weeks...
….but if the tone around there—the seeming fact that there is virtually no one supporting him anymore—he must be horrible.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Well yeah
Nocioni’s had the worst stretch of his career by a long shot….even the hobbled and awful Noc of the playoffs a few years ago was more effective.
I don’t get it. I don’t know what else to say. One of the biggest Noc supporters (me) who while I never would say he was a great player—homerisms aside, I did always like the little things he brought….he doesn’t deserve a spot right now on a 12 man roster with the garbage he’s thrown up the last 5 games at least….it’s a real shocker.
Even folks who were down on him for his contract which was bad because we knew we were going to keep Deng…..nobody would expect him to be this bad of late….
I hope he gets out of the funk. He always wore his heart on his sleeve and played hard, and now he just looks mad all the time, frustrated and like he doesn’t want to be a Bull….
Noc's net +/- per 100 pos
Is still by far the best on the team so I refuse to believe he’s the biggest problem for us. Him being played out of position and the team often playing without a center and way too many minutes given to Gooden and Hughes. Those are problems. Caused by Our Beloved Rookie Coach.
Nocioni +16,5
Hinrich +11,8
Noah +3,0
HUnter +0,6
Deng -0,1
Gordon -0,9
Hughes -2,3
Gray -3,4
Thabo -3,8
Thomas -4,9
Gooden -9,8
Rose -12,8
Our “Coach” should start by always having a center on the court. That means either Noah (preferably), or Gray (by default, the only other center on the team…)
yeah, well
maybe we can officially kill that stat.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2008 9:49 AM CST up reply actions
BAB
I’d hope you’re right…..but from what I have seen the past 10-11 games, I agree with Matt and I’ve been one of the biggest Noc supporters there is out there….he’s still amongst my favorite players in this league (mainly because he can and has played very very well despite not posessing much natural talent and because he plays hard)….but this stretch is completely inexcusable.
Our coach needs a Center on the court, but first our Coach needs to have a Center who can play….we don’t have that, not the Coach’s fault at all. Noc also needs to start playing his game, drawing charges, working hard, not making silly fouls but necessary fouls, and once he gets that back on the defense, I’m sure his offense will naturally improve. He’s never been a great man to man defender ont he perimeter, but he had been a solid defender because of his post D and his ability to get in the offensive players heads and draw charges etc. Now he’s not doing any of those little things and his man drivng past him is becoming more and more an issue.
It’s strange too because the preseason and first 5 games or so it seemed Noc was the best player to play with Rose and Noc was playing probably our second best bball—not necessarily in the stats per se but overall impact….sicne then though he’s making Kirk Hinrich’s crappy season of last year look all star worthy….
I hope he’s injured, and have always felt it’s annoying that Noc plays through injuries as much as he does……it’s one thing to play through the little nic nacks or injuries that don’t dramatically hurt his game (I like the loyalty thing) but when you are so blatantly ineffective, it sucks, and Noc did this to us in the playoffs 2 years ago, and although I haven’t heard injury talk, he’s playing so crappy right now and had that horrible limp in the Olympics you have to wonder if he’s doing the same…..I mean his stats are halved from the normal, and that comes after a nice first 5-6 game stretch (preseason doesn’t count), so the last 10-12 games have been probably 25% of the normal Nocioni….just unacceptable….
I still want to like him, he’s still one of my personal favorite NBA players because of how hard he tries and plays, but I want VDN to shut him down for a bit….
Hmmm. I'll keep hope alive
and defy all the Noce-haters in the meantime… ;)
And it’s Bass… I had to add something cause it was taken on SBN.
unadjusted net +/-
has many flaws. It shouldn’t be used as an indicator of play.
It has the advantage of being
totally transparent.
Unlike adjusted +/-
Overplaying Noch and not playing Deng lately in the game.Was just over the top.
General manager needs the ability to foretell what is going to happen tomorrow,next week, next month, and next year. And to have the ability afterwards to explain why it didn't happen.
Sir Paxdorf.
Eddie Jordan would be nice and Flip Saunders is still available too!
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Hire Flip
And lets recruit Brian Shaw as the lead assistant. We’ll get two years out of Flip and then hand the keys to Shaw.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
We can't hire a new coach yet.
With all of these former coach-of-the-year winners now available, I’ve been thinking about it too, but we can’t do it. If a HOF coach becomes available (like Utah fires Sloan or the Spurs fire Pop or something), maybe that changes things. But as it is, we can’t do it. If we pull the plug on Vinny this quickly, who’s going to want to replace him? Who is ever going to feel comfortable in the job? Pax picked Vinny, and now he has to live with him, at least for a year. Dude’s still learning.
If Paxson wants to help his coach out at all, he's gotta make some moves.
How long can it do on like this with all these spare parts competing for minutes? Plus, how crazy is it gonna get when Hinrich comes back? Seriously, what will he do then? I actually kind of sympathize with Vinny, he really has to dig around on this roster to find answers.
pax is just the Chairman's hand puppet
i sympathize with both of them
Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team.
-- Scottie Pippen
by Orlando Woolridge on Dec 4, 2008 12:22 AM CST up reply actions
I sure hope Sam Smith is right
about the Wiz actually considering taking Larry Hughes back. That would awesome.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
In Noc's defense
In Noc’s defense, its not like he is not trying. He is just being misused and overused. If he plays sparingly when the match up is right for us and he can actually guard someone on the other team thats on the floor with no problems, then we can use him. Dont feature him in the offense either. Let him do his thing and he is not so bad. Vinny puts him in a scoring position and gives him tough defensive assignments, he is setting him up to fail. I will tell you guys this in my opinion, if Tyrus played as hard and worked his tail off as hard as Noc does, he would be an all-star. I just dont think bashing him or blaming him is quite right. He hasnt helped himself much, I will give you that, but he is not being put in the right position to succeed. He is not as good as Vinny thinks he is.
by NamingRightsOnSale on Dec 4, 2008 12:43 AM CST reply actions
I agree too.
But I think namingrightsonsale point is that Vinny puts Noce in a situation where he will surely fail.
Like guarding Iguodala or Jefferson. Noce can probably guard Villanueva or Spreights but since he drew Iggy and RJ, he got burned big time.
Also, Noce should be in an offense where he’s like the fourth option. Rose, Gordon, Deng, Gooden and Noce seem ideal because all four will shoot before Noce will.
The problem is, that's his position.
He’s a 3 who is big enough to play 4 in a small lineup, but he’s not really a 4. So he should be guarding guys like RJ and Iggy every night, or rather, he should be able to.
I'd say he's a 4 first
as I’d rather sacrifice height than quickness on defense.
However if Nocioni can’t jump anymore (he never boxed out), then he can’t rebound at that position. At least not to leave him out there long-term if he’s not hitting shots.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 10:26 AM CST up reply actions
The only way Noc (with all his defensive shortcomings) can play the 4...
Is if we have a great (and I mean all star) 5.
This team is so weak, with no real option at center, that we can’t sacrafice anything (RE: height or quickness) with another obvious weakness at the PF spot… But we do… Every night… And people still think it’s Vinny’s fault we get “out coached”… Curse you Paxson!!! I digress.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
Positions
Positions dont matter as much as the player. He can guard some 3’s and some 4’s. Like I said, find the right match-up for him and use it. Heck, he can even guard a 1 or a 2 or a 5 if they are not real threats on offense. I wouldnt be opposed to seeing him guard Jason Collins or something or guarding Iggy or RJ
by NamingRightsOnSale on Dec 4, 2008 3:02 PM CST up reply actions
Unfortunately, "his thing"
is driving and getting stripped while flailing about. He doesn’t defer, so it doesn’t matter if he is featured or not.
Also, he gets smoked on easy defensive assignments, too.
Everyone
yesterday was driving and getting stripped though…. Gordon, Deng, Rose, Nocioni….all had this happen multiple times, I think even Larry Hughes had it happen once or twice….
Skiles must really be working on this with Milwaukee and they must really have an act for it, as their D wasn’t so hot in other areas, but stripping the ball was a real strength….
One thing we can say about Noc is at least he’s not Andrew Bogut and that salary. Seriously Bogut can put up ok numbers from time to time, but he’s a real bust in my book, and now has a huge contract. He can be a stat stuffer with the boards, etc, but in a playoff game or against a good opponent, he can be taken out of hte mix very quickly….
Sadly.
Bogut is better than any of our big men.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
Very true
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on Dec 4, 2008 10:32 AM CST up reply actions
Bogut just got back from injury
and he had to leave last night with another injury. He’s not bad at all.
This is so Bulls-fans-y…rip someone who’s actually good but not good enough. I’d love to have Bogut on this team.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
i actually don't mind bogut
but his salary was a bit much – though i heard it wasn’t that bad and a lot of what was reported were incentives.
i phrased it kinda wrong… but my point was more that yeah our big men are worse, but they don’t have the contract either. it would be worse if we were paying our big guys what bogut is making for these sort of results.
At some point our guys will reach the end of their rookie contracts
And then it won’t be a huge difference.
De gustibus non est disputandum
I wouldn't mind
seeing him in a BUlls uniform either. He would be a good upgrade from Noah.
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on Dec 4, 2008 11:43 AM CST up reply actions
I agree with Matt
on Bogut, dude’s really good and actually plays the position he is suited for at a high level when healthy. What’s not to like about him besides maybe his contract?
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Dec 4, 2008 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
His contract
And the fact that for that contract put him against hte elites in the playoffs and he can be squashed early.
If he was at a $8M a year contract I’d feel differently…
Right...
just like if Nocioni was only given a 3 year contract like most thought was reasonable for his age and production… he’d be just fine because we’d all know he’d be going after this year. Even a 4 year deal wouldn’t be horrible because it could be dealt a lot easier.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Here here
I would love to have Bogut as well, he would actually complement our bigs
by NamingRightsOnSale on Dec 4, 2008 3:03 PM CST up reply actions
I would rather pay Bogut what they are
Than pay Noc what we are.
by JeffD on Dec 4, 2008 10:42 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah
But for the money they are going to pay him, I’d disagree. I’d take $7M for Drew anyday, and on the games where Drew is on, he’s better than Bogut ever has been…..it’s just that every few games Drew has the “village idiot” game or two….always been a problem with Gooden.
Plus if Noah bulks up, he could quickly be better (And will forever be cheaper) than Bogut, and Tyrus Thomas still has potential—the 22 yr old THomas we have that is….
What?
IF Noah bulks up… and stops sucking, and get his endurance back to a decent point… he will probably be off of his rookie deal. And if he is better than Bogut, I’m sure his agent will see to it that he’s paid better than Bogut.
from the looks of it
people think Bogut stinks, yet Chris Kaman is somehow much better and worth trading for.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 3:12 PM CST up reply actions
They're both really good
Not great, but good enough that I wouldn’t consider scratching my eyes out.
"It never is, because I'm the Shogun. And before you get to the Shogun, you gotta go through a lot of ninjas."
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 4, 2008 3:22 PM CST up reply actions
just found it interesting
especially in the wake of some’s opinion on BG. I.e., he’s not a perfect player, so he has to get out. Kaman has plenty of frustrating traits as well.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 3:26 PM CST up reply actions
If Kaman was on this team for 4+ years
They’d hate him too.
"It never is, because I'm the Shogun. And before you get to the Shogun, you gotta go through a lot of ninjas."
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 4, 2008 3:35 PM CST up reply actions
Kaman is 7'
Gordon is 6’2. SGs are perceived, and actually, more replacable.
nevermind
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 4:08 PM CST up reply actions
Are you really advocating the idea...
That Kaman would be more valuable to this team than BG?
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 5:08 PM CST up reply actions
I would.
I think this team has a dearth in the frontcourt. And Kaman would be a boon for us right now, and for the next four years.
Gordon is a arguably a better basketball player, but Kaman is more valuable in our situation.
And I realize, that we would instantly miss Gordon’s scoring, but I think offensive minded shooting guards are easier to find than big bodied centers who are proficient on both sides of the floor.
Kaman isn't half the player BG is
but I agree with you. An offensive option in the post would open up the floor and create easier scoring options for the rest of the team. Any shooting guard with decent range would be able to fill in, and get more open looks.
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
Yeah
I think in pure basketball skills Ben Gordon is much better than Chris Kaman, and on many teams Ben Gordon is far far far far far far far far (many more fars too) valuable…
But the way our team is made up with the dearth at the C spot, Kaman would be more valuable to our club, even though he’s nowhere near the player BG is.
Just like I’d say with Deng vs Noc (until this stretch—see above) we have enough guards with Hughes/Thabo and when healthy Kirk) to offset enough of BG’s production….but that glaring hole inside keeps us really from competing consistently.
Still though I’d prefer us keep Gordon and go after Kaman with a less essential piece for our future (Kirk Hinrich pehaps even though I like Kirk, we have Rose and Gordon’s a better player) and use Drew (not in our future plans at least I wouldn’t imagine so) as bait…
Also
While I’m on it…..I don’t know if I love the idea of us going after Kaman first…..but he can at least play C and isn’t Aaron Gray (so he can play major minutes)…..
Plus he might do well with Noah and Tyrus at the 4 spots (they wouldn’t need to be the offensive guys.
Aaron wouldn’t be bad as Kaman’s backup for 10-12 MPG max….
I don’t know who else is available….
Marcus Camby (not the answer, but I don’t think Kaman really is either) might not be bad as at least a defender that’ll help our holes inside…..and he expires….so I might prefer him at least to get through the year. Camby’s not a bad player, but not our future….
I just don’t know what other top tier bigs are available.
Although...
…one could argue that with the way Nocioni has been playing, losing gordon would put this team at a distinct disadvantage in outside shooting. Something like “clogging the middle”.
In addition, if you brought in Kaman, not trading Nocioni and Hinrich would entrench this team to mediocrity for the forseeable future. So if you trade away Hinrich (in addition to Nocioni), you’ve just lost the ONLY other outside shooter and the only legitimate guard to replace Gordon.
So yeah, the way the team is currently constructed, maybe they need to get a C. But if you trade one for the other, you’re putting the team in mediocrity or simply creating another hole.
Like you said, keep Gordon and Kaman and might have something. the idea is to kee the better players and replace the worse ones with more better players. ;-)
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
If Gordon was to go for Kaman
(not that I’m necessarily in favor of that trade) or any center, he would need to be replaced. I don’t think a long term replacement is on this team right now. If we had a legit post scorer I think any shooting guard with a good spot up 3 would fall right into the slot. With the lineups that are available right now that would be the ideal player at the 2, if we had to give up BG.
With a good center Noah or TT would play the 4 well, Deng (who I’m still confident will find his game) at the 3, insert NBA 3 point shooter at the 2, and of course the Great Poohdini running the show, then I think we have a +.500 ball club. Insert Bosh or Amare at the 4 in 2010…. Real contenders….
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on Dec 5, 2008 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
I would put them on a pretty even level
players who are entrenched starters, but never all-stars.
I thought Ben Gordon
was actually 5’ 2"?
Have you not seen the videos of BG getting posted up by Muggsy Bogues and Earl Boykins? ;)
As we all know, being TALL is the primary indicator of NBA success!
by Granny Waiters on Dec 6, 2008 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
Not to me
Though Kaman’s slightly a better trade since he’s going to make less money and is ever so slightly better….
There aren’t a lot of bigs that to our eyes seem relatively available.
God I hate that the Mavs didn’t freefall like they looked like they were doing……
He won't make
Bogut money and therefore when he’s a veteran, won’t be as costly to the org.
He’s not better than Bogut, but can be as effective or nearly as effective in a year or two for dramatically less $$.
Bogut can get some stats, but has more than his share of off nights, especially against the elite competitors..
But yeah Bogut is a billion times better than today’s Joakim….Noah needs to bulk up and come prepared next offseason or he might not get many chances post his rookie contract.
That is an awful lot
of ifs and ands….
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
If Noah gets a contract bigger than Bogut's
Today’s Forbes release is gone for good.
Noah’s on a contract path to something below Kaman.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
Well, he's actually good.
Which is MILES better than the crap we have at center.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 1:31 PM CST up reply actions
I couldn't.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 9:44 AM CST up reply actions
me neither. I'm an out of shape couch potato.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 4, 2008 10:16 AM CST up reply actions
Which would make you look even more sweaty and red-faced and try-i-rifica.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
haha, I don't get the red face. Luckily, I'm not an overweight couch potato. I'm just lazy
I’ve got a great metabolism though, so my couch potato-ness doesn’t make me fat. I don’t get the whole sweaty red-face thing going very much.
As regards Noc, I agree that he looks more and more like Philip Seymour Hoffman in Along Came Polly. He looks like the old dudes that I’ve played with occassionally in pick-up games that are really into the game, but are just physically broken. Noc is 29 going on 45 because of his years of international ball following the season. He’s just washed up and he’s under contract for 5 years from now (!) Thanks Pax. That’s reason number 1 in my book why Paxson ought to be fired yesterday.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 4, 2008 1:43 PM CST up reply actions
Not trading Hinrich this season and letting Gordon go...
…would be 4a and 4b.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
not resigning Gordon this summer should be another big reason
and hiring Vinny all look pretty terrible too, thus far this season.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 4, 2008 1:47 PM CST up reply actions
The blame is going to Vinny
It is Vinny’s fault. He’s the coach. Noc is just doing what he’s capable of doing so putting him in a position where he will fail is all on Vinny.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
Could not disagree more
He has retarded options for his rotation and that blame falls on Pax alone
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 1:34 PM CST up reply actions
I disagree.
And just went on a rant here.
The easiest lineup is to play the guys with the most potential. Developing the talent was the foremost reason Del Negro was hired. That’s what he sold Paxson. That’s what he sold us at the press conference. Wins and losses were really only supposed to be a by-product of that.
He has a two-year contract. Don’t try to match-up the first year. He’s a rookie coach and we’ll get out-matched most every time. Run the “most potential” lineup into the ground your first year. After that, go from there.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
If you are talking about potential...
Then you can only mean Rose, TT, Noah, and maybe Thabo?
Rose – Developing quite nicely, and getting plenty of minutes – Check
TT – Plays 22 minutes a game (maybe deserves another 5 if we are strictly trying to “develop him” but whatever).
Noah – Looks winded in the limited minutes he already gets.
Thabo – Did VDN really tell us he was going to develop him? Maybe he did, but I don’t remember.
I don’t understand the criticism?
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 1:56 PM CST up reply actions
sure he did
Tyrus should play 30 if Noc can’t play at all.
Noah’s a huge issue that he’s hamstrung with, I agree. But hell, he can’t be too ill-conditioned to only play 5 minutes to start each half.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 2:08 PM CST up reply actions
O.K. then...
TT should play 7 to 8 more minutes a game than he does. Obviously you and I have different feelings about TT, but still, he plays him 22 minutes despite the fact that he is shooting a career low FG% (of epic proportions) on a team that is constantly playing catch up. I’d say he’s pretty close to a reasonable balance between developing TT and still trying to win games. We do want to win SOME games don’t we?
I’ll grant you that Noc should never see the court, but that’s on Pax too. We signed the guy to an unreasonable contract over a long period of time. It’s not like Hughes who will be gone soon. Like it or not Noc is a part of the long term plan of the Bulls… THAT is not VDN’s fault, but he is trying to find a place for him in the teams development (which makes me throw up in my mouth when I think about it).
As far as Noah, he’s averiging just over 16 minutes a game, which is more than 5 minutes a half… That’s on Noah, and I can’t even blame Pax for that one.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 2:23 PM CST up reply actions
I doubt they do many windsprints in practices during the season.
He should be playing more and playing himself into shape. He should be in better shape now than he was to start the season, yet he’s playing fewer minutes. It’s not about conditioning. It’s about Del Negro having no set plan of rotation and going with just he flow of the moment.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
It is about conditioning
Noah has been gasping out there at times….
And he’s not any stronger than he was early on….
Jeez...
The guy is supposed to be a professional basketball player. If he needs to run windsprints and they don’t run them in practice then he should hire his ass a personal trainer. What kind of message does it send to the team that we will tolerate a player not being in shape by rewarding him with minutes so he can play himself back into shape? How many more excuses can we make for our crappy frontcourt? This has to be the worst one yet.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 5:01 PM CST up reply actions
Why is it about excuses?
Why not just say, “We want to win so we’ll play our best players.” Or “We want to develop our young talent so we’re going to play them.”
What kind of message does send to the young players when they let Drew Gooden throw up brick after brick? What kind of message does it send that they give a player a starting job because he bitches? And then, to play him less, instead of just telling him like they do everyone else, they need to have a sit-down meeting between coach and GM all respectful and nice?
Maybe the message would be: “This year, as told, you’re going to play no matter what. You’re going to get 30 minutes a game. Unless you want to look like a total fucking dumbass out there, you should get your ass in shape.”
Jeez…
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Drew Gooden...
Drew only throws up consistent bricks two out of every five games…
And agreed. Somebody needs to pull Noah aside and tell him to get his ass in shape.
I hadn’t worked out in two years, and I went to the gym 5 times last week…. the first time, running sucked, I ran a mile and then gasped my way through a 3on3 game…
Then I went every day, and by the end of the week, I was running 4 miles and playing 3 games.
I realize that NBA ball is different, and Noah has a different body style then me… but still, you work out, you get in better shape.
I think it's more like
Drew throws up consistent bricks 2 out of every 7-8 games….that 2 out of 5 was more his Cavs days….
But when he’s throwing those bricks he’s awful….
Way to change the subject there Tyger...
The point remains, you think Noah isn’t in shape and the only way that wil happen is for him to play… Yeah, that’s a WONDERFUL message to send. I can see TT running for the box of ho ho’s already.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 6:17 PM CST up reply actions
huh?
If he’s not getting in shape, whatever message they’re sending so far hasn’t been working.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
It's his job to get in shape...
The only message they need to send that will make that happen is his paycheck. As far as I know Noah continues to get paid, but he still remains out of shape.
It would seem that you aren’t against entitlement minutes at all, you just want them to go to Noah so he can get his lazy ass into shape.
How do you not see that as a horrible message?
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 5, 2008 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
why is the only recourse always a benching?
and how do you know he’s not trying to get in shape…maybe he’s contrite about the offseason and is working his way back.
I’m so fucking sick of messages. Just win, as message to me that you give a shit about winning.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2008 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
Why does it have to be a message?
If he can’t keep up, sit him down. We have reserves for a reason. When he gets into shape he can play longer. How is that even remotely a bad message to send?
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 5, 2008 11:29 AM CST up reply actions
I don't see a problem w/ it.
This year is supposed to be about developing the younger players. If playing him into shape isn’t done in a vacuum, then it’s not a bad idea. Talk to him. Tell him what’s gonig on. Tell him the situation.
As I said, his minutes the last 7 or 8 games are less than the first number of games. if it’s about being in shape, whatever message they are sending isn’t working.
I think the best messages are the ones that work. I understand that human beings are different and some neeed to be treated differently. I also understand that requires a lot of work in communication with all your players (or whatever such subordinates).
Treating everyone the same and managing in a my-way-or-the-highway style is old school. Skiles was like that. It doesn’t work for an extended period of time. Management styles of people evolve.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
The only thing we would be developing in Noah...
Is an awful off season work ethic.
This is his second year in the league. You play Michael Jordan until he gets his legs back, not Joakim Noah.
It’s not a reprimand, players realize that they can’t play if they can’t keep up. That goes back to grade school.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 5, 2008 11:37 AM CST up reply actions
but he is keeping up
so if you’re keeping him out as punishment for not getting in shape for the offseason, then it is indeed a reprimand.
If they’re literally playing him only to the point he gets gassed, then that’s fine. From what I understand you’re suggesting they punitively take minutes to force him (through a MESSAGE) to get in shape.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2008 12:31 PM CST up reply actions
That's not what I'm suggesting at all...
We suck at the 5 spot, and I would much rather see Noah than Gray any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
They should play him until he is tired, not fall down, can’t breath, kill me now, tired. Just until he is obviously not at top form. Noah is a fine player, but his game has always been predicated on “hustle play”. He doesn’t help us when he can’t hustle, he just becomes another big body that stands around and watches Rose.
I’m not saying they should TAKE minutes from him as a penalty, just don’t GIVE him minutes when he can’t do what he wants to on the court. This is obviously semantics, but the difference is that he isn’t in the “doghouse” and will play more as the season and his conditioning progresses. If he needs to workout at the Berto Center in his spare time then so be it, I wish somebody would pay me millions for that privelidge.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 5, 2008 12:40 PM CST up reply actions
Even when
Noah gets his stamina back, he won’t really get stronger until he can work on the weights this offseason….
So I say play him. He’s not performing too poorly when he’s outt here (sans the transition D, which he has improved a bit) but him not playing as many minutes as he could/should mean too many Aaron Gray minutes or just as bad too many Drew Gooden at the 5 minutes (where Drew gets annihilated due to his lack of consistently solid defense). Drew’s better both on O and D at the four.
well the way they seem to be using him lately
is starting him for 5 minutes each half and that’s it. There’s no way he’s THAT winded where he can’t have a second stint in the half.
I think we more-or-less agree on this though. ;-)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2008 1:14 PM CST up reply actions
What kind of message does it send
giving entitlement minutes to a big who can’t get in basketball condition, admitted he didn’t work on his game over the offseason, and has had his commitment to the game questioned?
You know what? This is how I believe, I’m from the old school. I would rather play with four people, and just get beaten on both ends all the way until we gotta do something else rather than play with five, when I know that right now that fifth person is not sold out to be a part of this team. It is more about their entitled development then it is about the team. Cannot play with them, cannot win with them, cannot coach with them, can’t do it. I want winners.
by messwiththebull on Dec 4, 2008 8:44 PM CST up reply actions
Samurai Mike, is that you?
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 8:48 PM CST up reply actions
Do you want winners or do you want "try-hard-ers"?
Yeah, they don’t have to be mutually exclusive, but starting Aaron Gray isn’t starting a “winner”.
I’m not too concerned w/ sending messages. The Bulls have always been about sending messages and it hasn’t worked so far. The Bulls mutinied on their message-giver last year.
It depends on the individual. If you really think kicking Noah in the ass is what will get him to the best of his ability, then fine. But if you think praising him and playing him or giving him “entitlement minutes” is the way to do it, then that needs to be done.
Look, after drafting a player, there is only so much “punitive” things you can do. After a certain point (and yes, I’ll admit it might not be there yet), you MUST get the most out of your draft picks. It’s less about turning them into model citizens (or in Gordon’s case, perfect players) and more about actually getting something for your lottery-drafted picks. If you sit Noah and he never comes around, and the same with Thomas, then you’ve just wasted the one great thing Paxson did in his GM regime—getting two lottery picks while competing in the playoffs.
Hell, if you really do only want “winners”, then at least play Noah’s ass into shape so some team less-concerned with these things and more concerned with talented basketball players will trade for him.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Comparing TT and Noah in this instance is not valid at all...
Tyrus worked on his game over the summer. Noah smoked weed and partied in Florida.
I’m probably one of the biggest TT critics on here, but even I can see that TT has tried to put himself into a position to succeed this offseason, and thus he has seen his minutes raise (maybe not as much as you want, but they are up).
When Noah is winded he should sit. It’s not like he’s coming back from a major injury, this is only his second year. If we start accepting the fact that every year Noah will come into the season like a bum and need 20 games to get his shit together then guess what, every year he will come nto the season like a bum and we will waste 20 games while he gets his shit together. Why you would want to give him the star treatment is beyond me, that helps nobody, least of all Noah.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 5, 2008 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
you're way to into messages->results
it’s possible that what Noah does is entirely independent of whatever message he’s sent by his benching. Or it has a negative effect. You seem to think that benching is the only way to show disapproval, and the only way for him not to repeat his summer. I disagree, and prefer methods that don’t also hurt the team on the court (where they play basketball).
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2008 11:30 AM CST up reply actions
You know what else hurts the team...
Guys that can’t guard anyone because they are too tired.
This isn’t a “message” at all. He’s playing until he’s tired, then VDN pats him on the back and says “great, when you get your conditioning back you can stay in longer”.
The sad thing is that I doubt Noah is even motivated to do that much.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 5, 2008 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
Noah is physically able to play more now than he is.
He was at the beginning of the year. You know, when he was coming off of being sick and the horrible summer of non-conditioning. You know, like the sixth game of the year when he was forced (by Gooden being hurt) to play 30 minutes against the Suns and he grabbed 14 rebounds. Or the very next night when he played 26 minutes. Or the next game when he played 22 minutes. Then the next game when he played… oh… 3 minutes. About conditioning, though, right?
He’s not in worse condition now than he was then, and that’s exactly what you’re implying by saying his minutes are about his conditioning. When Del Negro has been forced to play Noah due to injuries, Noah’s been able to play and performed, for the most part, acceptably. As well as most 2nd year centers anyway.
Hell, even a gassed Noah is better w/ Gooden or Gray than Nocioni at this point.
If this were about winning games, Noah would be playing more.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I don't know
He was wheezing in Denver…..granted the altitude causes issues, but that wasn’t that long ago and he only played a few minutes and NOBODY ELSE was very tired (it was like 5-6 minutes)….
I like Noah
I think he has skills and nice GOOD role player upside for years to come….but he has not looked in shape and him putting his arms up asking to be taken out is a shock 14-20 games in….unless he played like 15-18 minutes straight of hyper active play, but after 5-6 minute stretches, that’s surprsing.
I remember someone commenting
that he got overly winded at the beginning of games in Florida, but if you give him a 1~2 minute break he’s fine. That might be what’s going on here.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
I guess I just doubt that.
Maybe Noah is that simple-minded. Maybe he would be fine w/ being embrassed because he can’t make it up and down the court for more than 8 minutes a half.
As I said before, the way I see it, you keep the guy in there past being gassed and don’t let him come out until he almost literally can’t make it up and down the court. If that doesn’t send a message that he needs to a work harder, than I don’t see how anything would. Plus, he’s getting into better shape a lot faster right now, too.
By sitting him, as I’ve said, you risk him thinking, “Well, I’m never putting in work if they’re only going to play me 8 minutes a half.” Then you’re losing a lot more than 20 games a season.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I just find it pathetic that it takes Noah
at least a quarter of the season to get into playing shape. Absolutely pathetic. I’d still like to see him succeed on the court this year, and it would also be nice to see a recent draft pick not named Rose actually live up to their draft position. That’s all.
by messwiththebull on Dec 5, 2008 7:32 PM CST up reply actions
I agree, just play Noah
he’s not playing that poorly, the team needs him. They know he has to get in shape, he knows it, so either it happens or it doesn’t.
However, if they think he’s not committed to himself as a pro long-term and this conditioning/workingout thing is always going to be an issue, then trade him.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2008 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
As I added above, that's part of it.
At least play his ass a bunch to get him into shape enough that someone else might give you something for him. If the coach banishes him and he says, “Screw basketball,” that’s possibly the Eddy Curry trade nullified.
So then, what else has Paxson done?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
and it'd be yet another 'character' guy proven otherwise
Which I don’t think is the case, or at least don’t think they think is the case.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2008 11:23 AM CST up reply actions
Believe it or not...
I actually like Noah, and want him to be a part of the Bulls. He has great size and plays with a lot of passion.
If/when he gets his conditioning back I would love to see him contribute more.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 5, 2008 11:40 AM CST up reply actions
You and me both....you and me both
I know you weren’t responding to me, but I think many on here can see the little things Noah can do (grab boards, blocks, grab some steals, pass, get in position for a nice put back…
He has skills to be a more than solid player (not an all star, but a career starter and better than avg role player)….but that conditioning factor is huge.
Seriously he’d be avg more than 12 pts a game and upper double digit rebounds if he wasn’t so soft that he doesn’t have the strength to get some balls in the rim that 99.5% of other Centers in this league would have converted.
All I'm saying... is Nocioni really the better option?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
he may have bad options
but if he picks the worst of those options, that’s on him.
I’d hope we’re above the level of discourse where it’s impossible to blame both the GM and coach. Sheesh.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 2:07 PM CST up reply actions
Further more, let me ask you this...
Have you EVER watched a Bulls game against a decent team where we “matched up well” (IE: where there wasn’t an obvious weakness on the floor for the other team to expose)?
How about 2 weaknesses in every lineup?
I’m not saying VDN is a good coach, but to judge him with these options is hardly fair.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 1:37 PM CST up reply actions
sure it's fair
He sits Deng in OT last game in favor of Noc. That’s on him. Plays Noc and then pairs him with Gooden and Gray instead of playing Thomas in that spot.
I don’t think I said anywhere that Vinny should be fired, but he can definitely be judged.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 2:10 PM CST up reply actions
Do we know why he sat Deng?
Seriously, I’m asking this.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 2:11 PM CST up reply actions
there's been quotes
saying he was unhappy with Deng’s defense.
which if you tie that in with his decisions (and really want to scare yourself), he thinks Nocioni is a better defender than Deng.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 2:16 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know...
I mean yeah, Deng isn’t a great defender, and if he sat him in overtime (in favor of fadeaway threes from Gooden in the corner) then that’s just not bright, but to me that quote still doesn’t address the overtime specifically.
Don’t get me wrong, I actually like Deng, and certainly on this roster he should always be on the floor, but he does have a history of getting hurt (recently in fact), and he could have just been fatigued in overtime… God knows I was.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
EVER?
Since you asked, the Cartwright, Grant, Pippen, Jordan and Armstrong lineup was solid. ;)
by Granny Waiters on Dec 6, 2008 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
Longley, Rodman, Pippen, Jordan, Harper
wasn’t too shabby either…. LOL
Argue abou Luc if you want to, but he held his own.
I’m pretty sure he was referring to the post Dynasty Bulls, even though he did say “ever”
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on Dec 6, 2008 12:29 PM CST up reply actions
Wow
I just realized how crappy our front court really is, when I was longing for the days of Luc Longley in the post….
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on Dec 6, 2008 12:31 PM CST up reply actions
Who the hell are those guys?
They must have played like… A decade ago?
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 6, 2008 3:39 PM CST up reply actions
15 years
1993 was the last time we saw that.
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
Considering Pax was there too...
He should REALLY understand how crappy our current roster is.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 6, 2008 3:50 PM CST up reply actions
I don't even think having Nocioni out of the game would have mattered.
There aren’t 5 good players on this team that can make a run on the court, cohesively, in sync, in both offense and defense. There are about 3 good players that are on the Bulls, and 5 bad ones with spurts of genius once every 4-5 games.
Even with Nocioni out and Sefolosha in, he would be more probable to have a shit game than a good one; which would have made me just as mad.
And lets say he decides to go ahead and leave Noc out for the whole game, and instead of playing Thabo, he just plays Hughes more; that would make me mad(der) as well.
The only possible lineups that wouldn’t piss me off is a Rose/Gordon/Deng/Thomas/Noah, with Gooden sprinkled in; but that would suck too since Noah can’t run the god damn floor for 5 consecutive minutes without being winded with Gooden sucking ass off the screen.
You can take a look at every possible scenario to this Bulls team, and every variant lineup, and there will be a gaping hole or holes. While I don’t think this a terrible team, it sure as shit isn’t a good one.
by NittanyCub on Dec 4, 2008 1:19 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
The point still remains
that I’m pretty sure Nocioni would be unable to guard Ben Wallace right now.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
[and his dominating offensive game!]
He’s got quicks!
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Now this is where I disagree.
I have no problem agreeing to the obvious (even the not so obvious).
Yes, Noce can’t guard Iguodala or Jefferson (or Brand or Bosh or LBJ or Melo etc…)
But I’m pretty sure Nocioni can guard Ben Wallace, Bruce Bowen, Chris Andersen, Robert Swift, Stromile Swift, Malik Allen and the like.
And yes, you will argue that I took it literally. My point remains the same. His defense suck but not to the point that anyone can score on him. Bet you we can’t score on him even if we went 2-on-1 on him.
Psh, we totally could 2 on 1.
And Bowen can hit the corner 3. Nocioni helps way too quick.
Honestly, these last few games … I don’t think he can guard those players.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Actually he's better off left unguarded on offense.
That’s how most teams play him anyway :)
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 2:03 PM CST up reply actions
DING DING DING! We have a winner!
There aren’t 5 good players on this team that can make a run on the court, cohesively, in sync, in both offense and defense.
Thats the freaking problem! Vinny has no cohesion because Vinny doesnt play the same 5 guys. If he does play the same 5 guys they arent the 5 best guys that should be playing.
This guy is in way over his head.
Let me talk about a few players here.
Gooden- This is why you can never like this guy. Besides the fact that he plays the worst defense ever. He will give you 20 and 10 for two nights then give you 1-11, 1-10 no boards at all really. I hate this guy and the sooner he can be shipped out for a 2nd rounder the better.. This guys a freaking primary option on this team! WHY? got me.. He’s older, looks stupid, doesnt know what position he is.. I hate him bad..
Gray- Again i like this guy (my wifes fav Bull, cause he’s always so happy) he should not be playing more min than JONO or TT EVER!!!!!!!! I dont care what the circumstances are.
Noc- He’s gotta go somewhere, do like Matt said or something and put him to sleep for a couple months. This guys a cohesion killer all by himself, not to mention guys we already know are like Gooden, Hughes, BG (only when he’s playing for that next deal), These guys are good ballers but terrible team ballers. Noc i dont know what this guy needs! Maybe a perm or something. The way Vinny keeps leaning on him really has me curious. Its almost like Vinny has blinders on..
Tyrus- Whats the deal? He looked pretty solid the night before? Why the hell wasnt this guy out there causing havic, taking bad jumpers, being Tyrus? Is he going to jerk around our young guys min all season? Gee i cant remember, didnt a old coach of ours do that too? WTF man
Noah- Seriously if this freaking guys still has conditioning problems then yes he should be riding a stationary bike the entire time Vinny has him rotting on the bench. I know his game is weak alot of times but this guys getting jerked around as well.
Thabo- OOWWW poor Thabo. Where are you Thabo? Maybe someone should ask Vinny if he remembers Thabo is still on this team? Vinny is too busy sicking Noc on guys way more athletic than him he forgot to realise he has a nice raw gem sitting on his bench that guess what, likes to play defense!!!! Does anyone here think Thabo might have done better against Rjeff and Iggy than Noc? I think anyone in the world could see that.
I’m not even going to rag on Hughes at this point. Ill get too mad. He just needs to go.
Vinny needs to get his head out of his ass. The worst part is he has Del Harris and Berny Bickerstaff sitting next to him while all this is going on. I wonder what they think? Do you think they actually agree with this crap? Do you think they are the ones pushing Vinny to do this crap? Do you think they just want his crappy job? This really has me concerned. I thought we hired these guys so stupid 1st grade basketball coaches couldnt outcoach Vinny! Cause trust me i wouldnt be to hard. I sick of the excuses he has a messed up roster, blah blah blah. Thats a BS cop out. This guy couldnt coach his way out of a paper bag.
Ill say it again id rather the Bulls play the young guys heavy min the entire season and win what we can win (which will be a good bit with D Rose and BG) rather than play guys like Gooden, noc, hughes.
I want to see Thabo, Tyrus, Noah, Rose, Deng and BG. I want to see some cohesion between those guys.
Im sick of A. Watching Viny screw over the young guys. B. Watching Vinny blow games trying to learn how to coach while leaning on “vets” C.Watching Vinny do both at the same time!
u want to see thabo, tyrus, noah, rose, deng, and BG
but like u said noah gets winded real quick… so off he goes to the bench. whos up next for him? whos up next for tyrus when he takes 5 jumpers to start his game?
It aint easy bein' Piatkowski
Then you
play the other guys if you have too. And personally i dont take TT out when he misses 5 jumpers. I coach him and tell not to , i create set plays for him going to the hoop. He takes 5 jumpers cause hes not being coached to do otherwise. I would setup lob plays, i would setup back picks. When Noah goes out cause he needs a blunt i bring in Gray. You let the kids learn from there mistakes that is what coaching is all about. Anyone can let a player go out there and play stupid and go 1-18. A real coach wouldnt send him to the pine, he would coach him.
How many jumpers did he take in the game before this one?
3? In 30 minutes?
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
but if i remember right atleast 2 of them were in the final minutes of the 4th quarter
in both of the games aganist philly and the bucks. hes gotta know that in the final minutes the last thing he can contribute to the team is taking jumpers. the kid just doesnt seem to learn from his mistakes, he seems not to be paying attention to the details that can help his game.
It aint easy bein' Piatkowski
So basically you would turn him into a one dimensional player?
Congratulations, he already is.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 5:04 PM CST up reply actions
I have a problem
with a player who feels like the regular season is the time to play himself into shape, and 19 games in we’re still waiting for this guy. Does he need a quarter of the season to get into shape? Noah’s wasted second year – should it turn out to be a wasted year – is on him.
by messwiththebull on Dec 4, 2008 8:49 PM CST up reply actions
Tyrus was sick...
From the tribune…
Tyrus Thomas shook off an illness that left him without a voice to contribute seven points and two rebounds Wednesday night after his 14 points, 13 rebounds and three blocks on Tuesday.
In agreement with your post
Play TNT 30+ minutes a game for a month straight. I want to see how bad he really is. Right now I’m not sold that he’s a bust or if he’s any good.
by Bulls Mouthpiece on Dec 4, 2008 3:45 PM CST up reply actions
So what
The Sixers roster looked like garbage last season, but with excellent defense and superb transition they took a 2-1 series lead against the Pistons.
We have the parts to do this now. We just have to play them together.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
i just can't believe that VDN is not realizing how bad of a rebounding team he's got out there
when nocioni is the 4. noc just wanders around out there while the bull get killed by offensive rebounding.
it’s just brutal when noc and bg are on the court at same time. 2 terrible defenders who lose their men constantly, don’t rebound at all and then take turns jacking shots up on the offensive end with no court vision whatsoever.
all these games that we’re losing lately have had multiple clutch offensive rebounds for our opponents. VDN has to keep some rebounding bigs in there or it’s not gonna stop. with deng averaging a pathetic 5 REB/gm, the bulls have got to have the 4 and the 5 get to the glass. the best chance for that is gooden and thomas. then noah. then gray. but no more going small with the power forward position.
Cashing checks and having sex.
Crapping on BG for defense right now
is an indefensible position this season. It’s just not there. BG is playing well above his career average defensively this season. I would have put him on Jefferson last night instead of Noc.
Michael Redd had a good shooting night, but he only got 11 shots and 2 assists meaning BG’s defense was forcing him into areas where he could not get shots and could not create them for others.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
And
Redd is as electric maybe even more so because of the left hand thing than Gordon….
so that was great to see.
Realistically
I was expecting Redd to drop 30 on us last night. That didn’t happen, but the main reason for that was because there were so many opportunities for Jefferson to tear Nocioni apart.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
there was one play
where the ball was dumped inside and Redd was trying to break free on a cut, and Gordon hassled him for several seconds keeping himself between Redd and the ball…it resulted in the play being abandoned and the post player (i think it was bogut) putting up a brick.
It’s just one sequence, but I whenever I read the dismissal of Gordon’s defense as non-existent it’s reads as the observer (not you, NBAO) being friggin’ lazy.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 2:12 PM CST up reply actions
Ben's best strategy
on Redd was to be active offensively and force Redd to run around a lot – thus tiring him out since he was just returning from an injury. And for the most part, I think Ben did a great job last night.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
Noc was so bad last night.
His +/- for the game was -18 in just over 12 minutes…Hughes had the next lowest at -14, but it took him 24 minutes…
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
by Dionysus2.0 on Dec 4, 2008 7:34 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Matt
I’m agreeing with you on Andres Nocioni….sad to say. I hope he really is trying to play through injury….because I just don’t get it at all, he’s been beyond AWFUL the last 7-8 games….just fouling to foul (not even just to stop a play, just mostly frustration fouls), his defense, which while never upper tier, was always decent in the post has been atrocious….he’s driving into the lanes and throwing up wild shots (getting hacked a bit, but not anything worse than he’s doing to the other guys ont he other end and getting no calls for)….
And just not bringing the Noc game…..I don’t get it.
He did have that one moment int he 4th quarter of classic Noc, where RJ was out on the wing fighting for position, and Noc wrapped his arms around RJ and when RJ flailed to get free, Noc did a great acting job to get a foul…..but that was the only decent play of the past 3-4 games of Noc, and that was more cheap than anything anyway….
Nice to see Deng finally show up. Maybe I can be happy with him again…..
Onto Drew Gooden. He started off the circus trip with 2 atrocious games, then played 4-5 straight good games, and the last 2 he’s rebounding into the typicaly Drew Gooden awful game mode…..he’ll probably be good againt he next game…..this is why Drew isn’t a better player than he is. He was awful and helped kill the game for us.
Derrick didn’t play well. He made some stretches to keep in interesting at spots, but overall was sloppy.
BG missed a lot of shots early, but thankfully hit a hot streak to keep us in it….and was pretty succesful with Redd (even before Redd was slightly injured, BG did an ok job on him).
Tyrus again was a high point.
Aaron Gray gets some kudos. He was the only guy offsetting Dan Gadzuric’s rebounding……yesterday was a game where Gray proved effective and I actually think VDN should have played him more after GOoden was forcing wild shots, not playing d, not boxing out and not rebounding….that was the adjustment VDN should have made, much as I normally am against it.
Oh boy!
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha (PER)
John Paxson might be one of the league’s worst GM’s.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Noc
has career lows in almost every important category. VDN and Pax need to realize this and sit him down or trade him. He has zero use on the court.
Did Thabo die or something?
Get this man on the court with Rose. We need defense creating offense and Thabo is the best guy we have at doing this.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
did we forget
Did we forget what happened when Thabo was playing? go back and read some of the comments on him
by NamingRightsOnSale on Dec 4, 2008 3:10 PM CST up reply actions
Playing against who though?
Spot minutes where Thabo can do the most damage should be utilized. You implode your opponents building using the gaping holes they reveal to you.
Why is this hard to understand? When we got into transition we dominated the Bucks.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
Noc
is hitting just as much right now as Thabo would anyway, all the while Thabo being a better defensive player. There’s no room for Noc at the 3…barely spot min at the 4 for him.
Have you not watched the last 5 games or so?
Noc and Thabo
Everyone is so wrapped up in positions… I dont care about positions, I care about matchups on defense, and what someone can do on offense to at least not hurt the team. Noc kills us when he guards people he cant guard (not all his fault) has had few bad games where his shot is off and is trying to do much. That’s coaches job to only use him where needed and against players he can guard. Thabo I havent seen improve in all the years he was here. I would love for him to improve and play more, all I was saying was did we forget how bad he played when given his chance earlier in the year. At some point TT, Thabo, Noah and all those guys have to be responsible for themselves and getting better. They can have all the potential they want, but they havent done squat yet in the league.
by NamingRightsOnSale on Dec 4, 2008 6:19 PM CST up reply actions
So basically
Noc bad=VDN’s fault
TT, Thabo, Noah bad=Their faults
Or the 28 year old whose been in the league for 5 years and continually shoots himself in the foot is being put in a bad position by the coach.
But the 22 year old, 23 year old and 24 year old who have been in the league 3,3 and 2 years are responsible for themselves.
Something about that doesn’t seem right to me.
When that second group
is played in position, but Noc is not, you can easily lay fault where you expressed it.
If Rose was asked to play Center and thus sucked, would you blame him or blame the guy to made him play center?
--Torch
I'd blame the guy who never gave him a legit option at center in the first place...
Johnny Pax.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 5, 2008 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
Not what I said
What I said was we are blasting Noc and giving these kids a pass. Noc is never gonna be much better than what he is. His ceiling is low, Ty, Thabo, and Noah have way higher ceilings, and I would like to see them work hard to improve their game and reach their potential. It frustrates me that they keep getting free passes from people here because of whatever the reason. Everyone is so quick to to stand up and give excuses why Ty, Noah, or Thabo dont play well because we see the potential in them and think that they are already there and the reason they dont do well is on other factors. But with Noc, this is it… This is as good as he is, so the coach has to use him that way. If you say that Ty, Noah, or Thabo are as good as they can be now and dont have the potential to get better, than I would say its the coach’s job to make sure they are only used with care to their limitations, which is what I suggested with Noc. Does it seem a lil more right now?
by NamingRightsOnSale on Dec 5, 2008 3:25 PM CST up reply actions
he's worse than what he was
the coach needs to use him on the bench.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2008 3:54 PM CST up reply actions
will our frontcourt ever play like real NBA players?
Seriously…they made Dan Gadzuric look like he should’ve been on the Olympic team last night. It was so bad that Skiles even ran a few plays for him…he didn’t just get garbage put backs. Our frontcourt is absoutely scared of playing any kind of defense at all.
And outside of the occassional Gooden and Tyrus offensive outburst, their offense sucks as well (I don’t get happy from an occassional 6 points from Gray like some people here).
Lu finally found his game last night, but dang, do we have to wait every 16th game for it to happen?
I’m really sick of Gooden trying to create for himself and take selfish shots. Granted, last night he did not shoot that many jumpers, but maybe he should have. It seemed like every time he tried to back down in the lane, his shot was blocked.
Noc – I don’t even have anything to add that hasn’t already been said. He sucks…end of story.
Our backcourt almost HAS to force their shots, because the frontcourt is so inept at anything. That’s why I can’t really come down too hard on Hughes and Ben (and some Rose – yes he forced a few last night too).
These are games they are supposed to be winning…yet they are looking less than sub-par.
It's obvious that if Gooden isn't shooting well
Bulls get very little front court scoring, but can’t someone at least get double digit rebounds??
Gooden – 23 minutes, 9
TT – 22 minutes, 2 f’ing rebounds
Noah – 17 minutes , 5 rebounds
Gray – 20 minutes, 8 rebounds
Absolutely pathetic.
"Derrick Rose is like a $500,000 Maybach parked in the driveway of a $200,000 house in the middle of nowhere" - Bill Simmons
by RogersPark Kris on Dec 4, 2008 9:07 AM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't mind if the Bulls targeted
Millsap instead of Boozer – tried to steal him while Utah negotiated with Carlos. He’s undersized, true. But he also rebounds, defends, and finishes down low. He’s much better than anybody we have and only 24.
I mean, we gotta get somebody.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Dec 4, 2008 9:12 AM CST up reply actions
Well
5 in 17 an 8 in 20 isn’t what I would call pathetic. Those figures in 35 min of play would average out to Noah at 10 and Gray at 12.
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on Dec 4, 2008 10:04 AM CST up reply actions
Seriously.
The only bad rate was TT and it was an aberration. There are much bigger things to worry about than those rebound rates.
Agreed
Rebounding is probably the only issue we don’t have with our front court.
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on Dec 4, 2008 11:44 AM CST up reply actions
except when Noc is at the 4
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
The frontcourt is just horrible
I don’t know how else to put it. Here are the numbers from yesterday by the bigs of Milwaukee (Bogut/Allen/Villa/Gadz) and the Bulls (TT/Noah/Gooden/Gray)
Milwaukee 19-37 45pts
Chicago 7/24 15pts
This isn’t the Lakers here with Bynum/Gasol. They can’t be putting the rest of team in such a huge hole to make up the scoring. While Nocioni looks bad, he’s nothing compared to the collection of guys we’re playing up front.
When
Villanueva is hot though, he’s one damn tough cover….and Charlie had a solid offensive game and a lot of those pts were from the outside.
At least Deng made a mockery (sans q2) of Richard Jefferson overall.
But yeah Gadzuric’s rebounding over us was atrocious because no adjustments were made at all.
Milwaukee's frontcourt
has to be in the bottom 1/3 of the NBA. And they took us apart in scoring, rebounding and defending (with their mysterious 27 interior strips, none of which was called a foul).
Great news
The Bulls are now even further entrenched as dead last in the by position PER Ranking
Bulls rank by position
PG 4th
SG 4th
SF 22nd
PF 29th
C 30th
O.K. but...
Weren’t you the one jocking Noc and saying how he was a “solid player” the Bulls can count on as a scoring 6th man?
We suck up front. Big surprise.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 1:47 PM CST up reply actions
Noc
has been a solid player worthy of a 6th man or a start on many teams….but suddenly he’s lost everything and is playing really awful. He started off the year ok, and has played well enough in the past.
I wonder if the knee that bothered him in the Olympics is back. I don’t get it…..I really don’t.
He’s having just a terrible stretch, almost half down from his normal stats accross the board….and it’s not like he was coming in Lebron James levels….so it’s really rough.
I think what happened was...
We got Rose. When you put him on the floor with BG and Deng then Noc has to play closer to the basket.
Noc was only ever good when he was launching 3’s… IMHO.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 2:38 PM CST up reply actions
Now that I think about...
That can’t be it…
I don’t know what happened, but Noc sucks.
Can we just leave it at that?
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 2:39 PM CST up reply actions
You, me, and everyone else here.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 2:42 PM CST up reply actions
We're paying Noc
We need him to play better to help us now and to help trade his contract.
That PER is a real deal killer right now.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
if getting better means he's tradeable
then yessir.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed...
If he scored 101 points and was traded the following day I can’t say I’d be upset at all.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 8:57 PM CST up reply actions
It's brief
Noc at the 4 is best because it pulls the opponents 4 out of the paint to deny them defensive rebounding. It looked much better when Noc would play the 4 and Wallace would play the 5 because Wallace used the tip out so effectively. It’s easier for Wallace if he has one less 6’10" guy in the paint.
All this is gone and Gooden and Gray are no Ben Wallace when it comes to retaining possessions.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
Noc can be effective
If he plays the way he has in the past….if he continues this pace, we should just eat the contract and give him time to rest that likely gimpy knee from the Olympics…..though I am just assuming that’s the case, since in the past when Noc has played crappy for a long stretch, it’s typically been that he’s been playing with injuries.
He was guarding Kobe alright in the summertime…..even with a bum knee at times in the Olympics….right now I think Aaron Gray would fly past him.
I don’t know what’s the matter, he’s playing horrible, looks frustrated, isn’t playing with the heart we’ve seen, and looks completely out of sorts, and even slower than usual. On D guys could get buy him but he’d always get enough charges/etc to make up for those slow mistakes, now he’s doing nothing but keeping the negatives….no postives.
I hate to say it...
But I liked this team better with Wallace.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
* with Rose too of course
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 2:02 PM CST up reply actions
The first year Wallace with the Bulls that could still rebound and
defend was fine. The second year Wallace who blew off the coaches, stunk on the floor and was mostly concerned about holding back Noah had to go, even for Chucker Hughes.
by Granny Waiters on Dec 6, 2008 12:59 PM CST up reply actions
well, somewhat
it’s a guard-heavy roster. and ultimately everyone’s here because of Pax.
However:
Two reasons for those figures is Deng’s awful start and Noah’s awful offseason. I think those problems will eventually correct themselves and should be let be.
Tyrus…who knows. I think it’ll certainly get better.
Nocioni falling off a cliff and playing too much is on Pax/VDN, Aaron Gray-ness is on both as well. Vinny could help a bit in some rotation decisions, but it’s also due to Paxson not realizing the usefulness of having some bigman depth.
BUT, one worry was that any bigman acquisition would squeeze minutes from Thomas and Noah. But now we know Noah looks like he needs the help especially, and the fact that this awful start from the frontcourt exists with Tyrus having a huge stretch of inactivity is just annoying by now.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
Noah/Tyrus
If we ever get a decent center, Ty and Noah would be great 4’s to a competent big man. Rose, BG, Deng can all space the floor pretty well, that leaves the post guy inside (if we ever get one, watch out), and Noah or Ty to cut off the high post. That would open up stuff for everybody else. When Ty goes to the High post and stays there, only person open is him, but if we feed the post and cut him through, now all 3 perimeter guys have a chance to be open for jump shots
by NamingRightsOnSale on Dec 4, 2008 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 2:17 PM CST up reply actions
According to those rankings
the grizz desperately need a non-crappy pg.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=198121712794&teams=2944&te=&cash=
Hinrich for Milicic and Warrick. This is mostly a 2010 cap room dump, but those guys they could also help the front court and perhaps create some other trade scenarios.
"Derrick Rose is like a $500,000 Maybach parked in the driveway of a $200,000 house in the middle of nowhere" - Bill Simmons
by RogersPark Kris on Dec 4, 2008 3:09 PM CST up reply actions
Really?
They have poor PG play cause they are developing Conley. If Conley keeps sucking, the have Lowry and Critteron to try there before giving people away for Kirk
by NamingRightsOnSale on Dec 4, 2008 3:15 PM CST up reply actions
Would the Grizzlies take his salary?
They’re losing a ton of money and they’re drawing no fans, so I can’t see them taking on any big contracts.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
I don't understand you at all...
First you say that Noc is a solid player, then you say (above) that Kaman is better than BG (I think that’s what you mean anyway), and now you lay this piece of obvious trivia upon us?
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 5:16 PM CST up reply actions
There is so many replies....
and I’m using a tiny laptop, who are you replying to?
Sorry, I just cant tell.
CJ Bulls...
It goes back a ways.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 6:18 PM CST up reply actions
See above to the Kaman response.
But in case you need clarification. If running across the bottom line, the following trade was written. “The Chicago Bulls trade Ben Gordon to the Clippers for Chris Kaman” I would not be suprised. I think that deal would be lauded by most analysts as a good deal for both sides. Thus I consider both players pretty equal in value.
Yes, I’ve stated in the past Noc makes a great scoring sixth man. That was before the season started. He’s clearly not the same player anymore. I didn’t expect his scoring/fg/3pt% to fall off the map.
What was the trivia?
No offense but...
Considering how wrong you were about Noc I’ll continue to believe that BG for Kaman would be a bad move for the Bulls.
The trivia was a reference to our league ranking PER numbers.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 8:51 PM CST up reply actions
How wrong I was?
Based on his past stats, I was dead on. I can’t help that his future actions didn’t hold up. I didn’t hear anyone, including you, predict that Noc would be averaging 7 less pts/40 and 38% field goals when he’s a career 45% shooter all of the sudden, in the middle of his prime.
To use his dropoff as the basis to judge all my other comments shows a lack of common sense.
O.K.
But I think it was pretty obvious that he lost a step last year. Maybe it didn’t show up in the stats that you cling to, but WATCHING him play I think many people knew he wouldn’t be able to thrive in an up tempo game with our new PG.
If you are seriously arguing that Noc sucks now because his FG% has dropped off by 7 points then you clearly don’t understand the makeup of this team. Even if you did then I would think it should only validate why we should hold onto OUR BEST SHOOTER in Ben Gordon over aquiring a big man… In a trade we couldn’t make without BG’s permission anyway.
There are so many reasons to not argue this with you.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 5, 2008 12:48 PM CST up reply actions
You're right....all statistics out the window
Do you just have some website column I can read for all my future NBA knowledge?
You’re right I dont understand the makeup of this team. Nor do you or Paxson or anyone. Losing BG won’t mean a thing in 5 years. It doesn’t mean he isn’t valuable or a good player, but you clearly have some sort of over-the-top love for BG. Pull back a little and maybe that will help.
I didn’t suggest a BG for Kaman trade. We were speaking hypothetically about player values.
Fantastic...
Then we agree to never talk about the Bulls again. I’ll meet you over at Blazer’s Edge where we can discuss another team from now on.
How do you feel about this new guy they got named Sabonis?
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 5, 2008 2:30 PM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't wish that upon my blogger enemies
and certainly not a blogger-friend like Dave.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2008 2:39 PM CST up reply actions
How does Dave feel about Tyrus Thomas?
It’s all I would want to talk about over there anyway.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 5, 2008 5:02 PM CST up reply actions
they're all ga-ga over their own guys
so they’ll conveniently forget that Aldridge boards at a Nocioni-level.
but, yeah, i’m sure they’re happy with the trade
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2008 5:16 PM CST up reply actions
I will smile
If I read we traded BG (who we will lose at end of the year for nothing, there is no way BG helps Pax or the Bulls after what happened this summer) for Kaman, I would have a smile the size of Alaska, because that would mean we were also able to shed a horrible contract with it just to make the numbers work..
by NamingRightsOnSale on Dec 5, 2008 3:28 PM CST up reply actions
I would have to agree
I didn’t like this trade idea at first, but the more I think about it…. It would be best for the team IMO Not very likely that BG ok’s a trade to the Clips though.
On a side note we would have to send out Noce too. Can you imagine the sight of those two playing together in the front court. LOL
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
If he won't help us at the end of the year...
What makes you think he would help us now?
We can’t make any trade with BG involved unless he gives us permission.
We’d be better off looking to move another player for Kaman anyway.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 5, 2008 5:05 PM CST up reply actions
BGs permission is the easy part
The thing holding back any trade is that he loses his bird rights and has one less re-signing option above the mid-level exception, presumably his best one, the minute he is dealt.
Why would BG
accept a trade to the Flippers AND lose his Bird Rights?
If Pax can pull that off, I see a Hughes for Dwight Howard trade in the works!
by Granny Waiters on Dec 6, 2008 1:07 PM CST up reply actions
The point is neither side would.
The Clips wouldn’t be able to pay him therefore esentially give up a valuable player for a rental.
Gordon wouldn’t want to go either because the Clips couldn’t sign him above the mid-level and the Bulls couldn’t either anymore.
If that didn’t exist I don’t see Gordon hating to play for the Clippers. They would have a formidable starting lineup, and he presumably would be getting paid once they extended his contract.
That's laughable...
The Clippers would NEVER pay BG the 10+ million he thinks he’s worth. They are one of the cheapest teams in the league, and they already have a ton of money committed to Baron Davis and Zach Randolph next year anyway.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 6, 2008 3:47 PM CST up reply actions
So.....
they were about to sign Baron Davis and Elton Brand this offseason. When Brand fell through, they traded their exception for Marcus Camby, taking on his 10 million dollar salary for nothing.
But they wouldn’t trade for Ben Gordon, the one who you think is so great regardless of statistics, in a scenario where they’d also be sending out salary to make the deal work?
NEVER is quite a strong word.
Oh CJ...
Sometimes you just talk, but don’t actually have the facts straight. I wouldn’t expect anything more from a guy who thought the Bulls had a great deal in Noc’s contract anyway.
Camby will be making 8 million this year (not 10 million). Next year he will make even less at 7.65 million.
FYI, BG wanted quite a bit more than 7.65 million (somewhere in the neighborhood or 10+) for at least a few years I’m sure. But the point is moot anyway.
I can’t believe I’m actually arguing this with you when you think BG and Camby’s contracts are interchangeable. I honestly can’t think of two players who are more disparate in their skill set, especially when Camby only has 2 years left on his deal and BG would MOST DEFINITELY want something longer. So yeah… They would NEVER pay BG 10+ million with Zach Randolph and Baron Davis already making a pile of cash for the next 3 years. But please, by all means proceed to explain you think they will.
Before you do though, here is a link that shows the salaries of the Clippers, before you start quoting wrong numbers from thin air again…
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/la_clippers.htm
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 6, 2008 6:09 PM CST up reply actions
They aren't as cheap as they used to be
They extended Brand once, were ready to give him another big deal and gave Baron Davis a large contract as well.
They also signed Tim Thomas to a large (but stupid) contract after his nice stint with the Suns.
Sterling is still a fool and should be slapped in the face for firing Elgin Baylor and keeping Dunleavy, but he’s not that cheap.
"It never is, because I'm the Shogun. And before you get to the Shogun, you gotta go through a lot of ninjas."
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 6, 2008 6:18 PM CST up reply actions
Their entire roster is roughly 12 million LESS than ours...
And we refused to go into the luxury to pay our leading scorer.
In fact only 3 teams (27 out of 30)have a lower team salary than the Clippers. How is that not considered a cheap team?
http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm
Elton Brand for the max is a no brainer, and Baron Davis is a hometown guy (ie: sells tickets) who can flat out dominate when he wants to. Tim Thomas is inexcusable.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 6, 2008 6:38 PM CST up reply actions
* That should read...
That out of 30 teams only 3 pay their roster less.
If you can’t call the Clippers cheap, then we should never complain about the Bulls.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 6, 2008 6:39 PM CST up reply actions
My mistake...
I think you were just saying they used to be cheaper.
But we can agree they are still cheap right?
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 6, 2008 6:46 PM CST up reply actions
Ok check two sources
first the ESPN trade machine:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/trademachine
second shamsports.com:
http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/clippers.jsp
Both list Camby’s salary at 10 million.
Maybe you should do some more research. And can you actually comprehend the posts I make. I never stated that BGs and Cambys contracts are interchangeable. I was making a point that the Clippers are spending money. In the last 6 months , they’ve added Baron Davis, Zach Randolph, and Marcus Camby. All 3 with large contracts. To assume they wouldn’t trade for BG when they would be sending out salary to acquire him and then extend him is stupid. No better word to describe it. No better word to describe you at this point.
Yes I must be stupid...
I did in fact argue for days about how Noc was an awesome 6th man who was well worth what we paid for him… Wait a minute was that me?
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 6, 2008 9:18 PM CST up reply actions
LOL... Again...
Camby’s base salary (what the Clips will pay) is 8 million. His Salaray cap figure is 10 million because of 2 million that he got in bonuses LAST season (2 million, is what Denver pays, and NOT counted against the Clippers).
Again, check your “research” CJ.
Should we go for round 3?
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 7, 2008 5:34 PM CST up reply actions
4th in the league in PER differential at SG,
with the midget Gordon playing almost 36 minutes per game? What do the BG haters have to say?
RE-SIGN GORDON, PAX!
by Granny Waiters on Dec 6, 2008 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
Drew
Needs to stop trying to always shoot jumpers…..while he can hit them when he’s hot, we have better shooters playing a more natural position for shooting in Deng, Gordon, Rose, even gulp Larry Hughes, and while he’s in a funk he has been in his career Luol Deng.
Drew can play a good post game, but doesn’t prefer to do so, and with our team as construed that’s what we need.
I was surprised when I saw the only 2 boards for Tyrus, as not looking at stats, and just looking at the game, I thought he played very well.
Aaron Gray actually was yesterday’s best big man though, and that’s the recipe for a loss.
Tyrus didn't play poorly
but he was as big a culprit as any on allowing those defensive rebounds to go to Gadzuric
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 2:23 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed
But Tyrus did a lot of little things on D to at least offset some of the board mistakes….unfortunately he kept blocking the shots or tipping the balls back to Gadzuric…
I just thought in watching the game on TV without really focusing in too closely on stats, etc, that Tyrus was active and played well….just didn’t who up on the stat line.
Drew Gooden I think was the biggest factor in the Milwaukee killing us on the boards last night….but Drew’s played 2 awful games in a row, so we’re looking for a decent Drew game the next 2-3 then 1-2 really good Drew games before another 1-3 damn awful drew games coming up.
The last two losses have been infuriating and disheartening.
That is all.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
BTW
DAvid Thorpe analyzed the Bulls/Bucks game in 2day’s daily dime
"If there’s any haters in here right now that don’t have nobody to hate on, feel free to hate on me." - A.P.N.S.
Some random thoughts, Thorpe-style.
At the beginning of the game, I thought we had our best lineup in (Rose, BG, Deng, Gooden, Noah) and were playing pretty well; Noah was really active, we were running Deng off of screens to get him involved (interspersed with moments of improv from Rose and Gordon), Gooden was attacking and rebounding, and we were right in the thick of it.
And then Noc came in. Not only did Noc come in, but we took Noah and Rose out, too. Larry Hughes was playing some good on-ball defense, but basically our whole team defense collapsed. Oh, and we had no more offensive flow with the best “court sense” guys we have sitting down. If we insist on playing Noc, we have to play him with Rose so that he can be more of a spot-up shooter and board crasher, and not feel compelled to create off the dribble.
Question: why won’t VDN play Tyrus and Noah at the same time? They both did a lot of the hustle and heads-up type things that win basketball games last night. But Tyrus was almost always playing with a horrible supporting cast, and Noah didn’t get back in enough after playing well to begin.
When Aaron Gray first came in, I actually yelled at the TV. But then he got like 5 offensive rebounds in a row and actually slowed down Gadzuric a bit. If only he were more athletic, he could actually be a good center. Even now, though, he has his uses.
For all the Gooden haters, reflect: he was mostly taking 6 foot jump hooks. Those are high percentage shots that he has made his entire career. Remember the end of last year when he averaged around 18/10 on around 50% shooting? We want Gooden to do these things, just like we want Gordon to shoot open threes. Sometimes they won’t go in, and sometimes those guys will have off games (like last night, for both), but in the long run these shots are positives.
The Thomas-Noah thing is ridiculous.
It goes waaaay back to last year, too. It’s been so frequent that it became obvious to me early on that there is a definite decision to play the two together as little as possible. Drew Gooden jacks up 10+ misses, no problem—he’s in for offense. Tyrus Thomas does it. OH MY GOD! OH MY GOD! OH MY GOD!
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Thomas-Noah
It hasn’t worked out very consistently. Then again neither of them have done anything very consistently.
On a side note does anybody else ever wonder what T1 and T2 would have been like playing together?
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on Dec 4, 2008 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
I agree that it hasn't looked good
but in reality there’s only 4 guys who can play in the frontcourt right now, and one of those is Aaron Gray. So it’s strange that the combination is completely abandoned.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
I'm completely, 100% baffled by it.
I understand the arguments against (they suck, they’re skinny, they’re not good offensively), but I don’t think they’re strong enough to completely dismiss using them together.
A) Drew Gooden and Aaron Gray suck, too.
B) Drew Gooden and Aaron Gray aren’t good on defense. While they have a place (a small one) in defending big, um… bigs, it’s rare, and it’s not like they help much anyway.
C) Both have the potential to be really good offensive players—they can dribble and they can pass—two rare, and therefore, underrated qualities in big men.
If Rose and Gordon are the future backcourt, they’re going to be better offensively than defensively. If Gray and Gooden were that much better offensively, I’d understand—put your best players out there. But if it’s more like: Meh, they all suck. Why not go w/ some sort of balance… or, most importantly, the guys w/ the most potential?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I guess what I don't understand is Del Negro's lack of vision.
On one hand, I do understand it. He’s a new coach and wants to prove he belongs so he wants to win at all costs.
On the other hand, I don’t understand how he can’t possibly see that he has an entire ‘starting lineup of the future’ out there. It’s looking more and more unlikely, but I would have just started Rose-Gordon-Deng-Thomas-Noah for the first half of the season, god-damn the wins & losses. If nothing is coming around by then, fine. If it is, well, you just might have something special. Larry Hughes or Drew Gooden or Andres Nocioni or Aaron Gray coming around will NEVER be anything special.
I just don’t get it.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 4, 2008 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
completely agree
the issue is especially glaring because at the time it seemed that Vinny was hired precisely for this reason. And it would compensate for the fact that he likely was going to have some off nights as a rookie coach. Instead we get those same goofs and none of the promised vision.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 2:25 PM CST up reply actions
Well Tyrus
Is getting something like 7 more minutes a night…..which is 50% more than th epast.
I think it’s early to be completely on VDN.
If Tyrus continues to play well, I bet Tyrus’s MPG will continually creep up. Last thing they want is him playing 30 MPG just jacking up shots…..and I think Tyrus is learning the system better…..or at least I hope that’s the case.
I do like the look of the form on his shot though…..like someone posted yesterday he seems to get nervous with the shot and is likely much better in practice…..I was like that as a kid in baseball, but then again I wasn’t making millions of dollars…
I think we reached a point where one of either Tyrus/Noah should be moved
for a veteran, even a marginal one. They have similar style games, as in they should focus on defense and rebounding, and another offensive minded big around the leftover of the two could help them focus more. Kaman/Miller remain the only two who seem to fit that mold.
I don't see how they fit together long term either.
I don’t see how either of them works particularly well with Kaman either, however.
Miller would be a good fit, but extremely short term IMO. Maybe a guy like Bargnani, but like I said in the other thread, I don’t see why the Raptors would even consider trading him.
De gustibus non est disputandum
I don't associate winning at all costs with playing Nocioni and Gray
Rather the opposite.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Dec 4, 2008 3:16 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, yeah, me too.
I’m saying Del Negro doesn’t, though. He’s going the old coach-thought: “try hard, make few mistakes, who cares if you do anything good.”
(although, you were probably making a sarcastic comment about Del Negro… so my fault.)
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP.
He was the 6th man in the gold medal winning argentinean squad and a starter in the bronze medal winning one.
And now,
HIS LEGS ARE BROKEN.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
That sounds like a summer movie pitch or a bad NBA promo...
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 4, 2008 10:36 PM CST up reply actions
starring Rob Schneider
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2008 12:07 AM CST up reply actions
As a carrot.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 5, 2008 1:01 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think the better question is
what Rose and Ty1 would have been like playing together.
Now I’ve done the calculations, and I might have to check again with the lab results, but it’s always conclusive that it would have been awesome.
Look at the foul diffferences
Bulls
1st quarter: 1
2nd quarter: 9
We made Jefferson effective with our fouling.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
Haven't been able to really watch a Bulls game this season, but
what is up with Nocioni?? He was really good for a couple of seasons and how come he is plummeting??
"Charles Tillman is one of the best strippers in the NFL" - John Madden 11/30/08 Chicago Bears vs. Minnesota Vikings game
he was never really good
but he’s simply slower and less athletic than before. It’s a problem.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
He was never
REALLY good, but he was good….that is.
He was always starting caliber on the lower half of the teams…..and now he’s an abomination.
But he has played hurt before...
played a lot with plantar foot problem last year…and it really limited him, couldn’t jump, or cut, etc.
Doctors say it tends to come back….
Of course, it’s hard to tell how bad a player might be hurt, because of general lack of coherence predominant on the court.
That was two years ago
Nocioni shut himself down in the 2007 Summer to get himself fully healed for the 07-08 season. He played 82 games last year. The plantar fasciitis was a problem in the 06-07 season because he played the full 2006 Summer with Argentina in the FIBA World Championships.
I have not heard or read anything about the PF issue bothering Nocioni last season or this season.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
stand corrected....though he could still have had a relapse
thanks for the correction: yep Plantar was 2 years ago.
I haven’t heard anything either that would indicate PF as the problem now.
Other than in lieu of plausible explanation….one wonders what is going on…
PF has been know to recur, and it’s something a player often will play with, but not play well with. Did Kukoc ever fully recover?
As mentioned, hard to pinpoint causes of poor play this year, as well as last year, with coaching problems and incoherent court play, IE " lack of teamwork" and constant talk about selfish play. Noc might be revisiting frustrations of last year a bit when he finally couldn’t swallow any more shit from ‘coach’.
Maybe Noc is the canary in the coal mine…when he’s acting out, one knows that things have gotten pretty bad in team morale dept.
when you start with carry over problems from last year with contracts, odd roster, gunner/whiners like Hughes, add a brand new coach getting a “try out” ….and a superstar in waiting rookie turning any semblance of team “plan” inside out….not surprising that a number of players are going to “have troubles”.
On the other hand, should team gain some stability and coherence despite the circumstances, say by after the allstar break, and assuming pre requisite backcourt for frontcourt trade… then it would be quite a coup for VDN. Nigh on a miracle…which means, go ahead, bet your GM stock, but otherwise don’t get hopes up.
Can someone please explain the point of the play the Bulls run seemingly every time down the court
Gooden sets pick for Rose. Rose dribbles through it and is double teamed. Gooden then camps out at the 3pt line and just sits there. Rose, recognizing the double, passes to Gooden. Gooden pump fakes a college three and then does nothing. He either passes back to Rose or another player. Not net gain whatsoever. And the team has 6 less seconds on the shot clock.
It seems like Gray is the only player
that sets the screen and knows to roll to the FT line and put the paws in the air until he receives it.
Tyrus and Gooden are terrible at this. They leak out to the perimeter like Noc when they have to get in the paint and be the facilitator when Rose or Gordon gets doubled.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
no reason Tyrus shouldn't recognize he needs to dive to the basket there
I get when he feels lost when not involved in the play (and told to stand outside instead of trolling baseline). But when he’s setting screens, he has to just let derrick go and follow him. It worked at the end of regulation against Philly.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2008 2:26 PM CST up reply actions
I fire mind bullets at Thomas when this happens
I really don’t know what else to do with him. At some point he has to recognize that slipping off screens to stay on the perimeter put him in the lesser of two positions. On the perimeter he’s given the jump shot as bait to get him to drive to turn it over via a charge. If take the second option and rolls to the rim he’s in perfect position as pass facilitator or close enough to attack the rim with a dunk.
You’d think that by now we could hear this on broadcasts. Bickerstaff and Harris yelling “ROLL TYRUS. ROLL.”
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
Yeah everyone's been on Tyrus for not rolling enough (on the teevee that is)
Tyrus is adept at drawing fouls when he’s close to the basket. He’d get less charging calls if he didn’t start with the ball so far away from the hoop…..and if he can’t get something going he can always pass back to Rose or Gordon for a bailout shot.
Instead we get a screen, Tyrus with the ball…..wait……wait……shoot……clank. When it goes in I jump for joy, but the rate at which it’s falling is so low it must be abandoned.
"It never is, because I'm the Shogun. And before you get to the Shogun, you gotta go through a lot of ninjas."
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 4, 2008 3:32 PM CST up reply actions
Fourth quarter
Haven’t this team learned yet?
In the fourth quarter, everyone except DERRICK ROSE completely dissappears. It showed in the Denver game, the Spurs game, the Philly game, and now this game. And it will continue because this team is full of mental midgets. I think only Rose and Larry freaking Hughes have some balls at this point (and I mention Hughes because only he’s not afraid to take ANY shot).
What the hell happened to Gordon’s clutchness?
Remember his rookie days when he couldn’t miss in the fourth quarter??
So the solution is simple
In the fourth quarter, give the ball to Rose….everyone get out of the way.
And Rose HAVE to start looking to score….he can’t do this passing thing all game long….because we’re falling down by double-digits EVERY GAME now.
If you’re falling down by double digits every game….something is SERIOUSLY wrong.
Why we're down double digits
http://www.blogabull.com/2008/12/3/679354/bucks-97-bulls-90-maybe-in#10445428
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
yfbb your summary ..
Noc is uncoach and needs some direction. He needs to play on a team with players light years better than him. Or players and/or coaches who would tell him to stop being a knuckle head chuckler.
Therefore, he doesn’t fit this team any longer, which isn’t all his fault.
man up!
NOC is a mediocre player
on a mediocre team. If he gets to play under 3 coaches, then he must be contributing something to get the playing time.
The reason we're all up in arms
is that, as of recently, he has been playing horrendously. He was playing great as the season started, and now … poop.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
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