Bulls 100, Nets 87: yay...
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 29, 2008 9:18 PM CST
258 comments
The final 4:35 of the game had a frontcourt of Hughes/Nocioni/Gray.
Now, they did win. But tough for me to get excited over it. This team is talented enough to win some games in spite of themselves. Their backcourt was brilliant, Noc and Hughes shot relatively well, New Jersey sort of fell apart near the end of the game.
I thought Tyrus was doing some good things, though he didn't play the final quarter and a half. Must've had a real unprofessional halftime. Noah did get over 30 minutes, and we know that he and Tyrus can't both play together, because Noc and Hughes and Aaron Gray need their time. I'm kidding, they don't.
I guess that one way to look at it is that they'll need this win when they're going on a late season surge after this trade that has to come. Or if you want to be down in the dumps, it'll be a sign of progress in the eyes of Vinny, and maybe we'll see a 3-guard lineup of Rose/Gordon/Hunter again because it 'worked' tonight. Choose your own boring adventure.
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Nets frontcourt is crap
Lopez and Boone? Ugh. No wonder they got away with playing Hunter more then 5 minutes.
"Derrick Rose is like a $500,000 Maybach parked in the driveway of a $200,000 house in the middle of nowhere" - Bill Simmons
by RogersPark Kris on Dec 29, 2008 9:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Our frontcourt BEAT theirs?
I don’t care WHO it is, that’s an accomplishment.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
by Prevenge on Dec 29, 2008 10:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I heard the Bulls have a new player this year named Derrick Rose.
Is he any good?
by Granny Waiters on Dec 29, 2008 9:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Mehhh...decent
Maybe someday he’ll have more than 10 assists
"If there’s any haters in here right now that don’t have nobody to hate on, feel free to hate on me." - A.P.N.S.
by Belize on Dec 29, 2008 9:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I loved seeing
Derrick focus again on passing. He threw 2 awesome passes, I think a bullet to Noah (And Noah actually caught it) and again a bullet to Nocioni. Hopefully he will keep doing that, as those types of plays are open to a guy as skilled as Rose…..
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 7:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you see the pass to Thabo on the break?
I think it was in the second quarter. Stupid Thabo missed the layup though.
by robinhood on Dec 30, 2008 10:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I watched it about 10 times on tivo
It was 1st quarter and i couldn’t get a good angle to see if he went through his legs? Could anyone else tell? either way great pass, and one that thabo usually finishes
by BooRad16 on Dec 30, 2008 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I forgot about that one
D. Rose was ON FIRE. I can’t believe 6’ 7" Thabo didn’t dunk that one….that’s why he’s on my shit list….
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Tyrus got hurt and that's why he didn't return
by fundamentallysound on Dec 29, 2008 9:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
really?
well then that’s cruddy timing for him, yet again.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 29, 2008 9:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
noooooooooooo
"If there’s any haters in here right now that don’t have nobody to hate on, feel free to hate on me." - A.P.N.S.
by Belize on Dec 29, 2008 11:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you see anything on that?
I didn’t remember seeing it?
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 7:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
he kinda tweaked his ankle on one possession in the 1st half
he looked fine after limping for a minute or two though. his lack of pt in the 2nd had nothing to do with that and everything to do with del negros idiocy.
by Calogero on Dec 30, 2008 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That's what I thought
I mean unfortunately to a degree I understand the thought behind Gray….Gray tries hard, Noah sometimes looks like an idiot and gets winded, despite being 50 lbs lighter than the still somewhat heavy for teh NBA Gray….play Gray a bit as a motivator to Noah, and while Gray is out there at least attempt to use his fundamental foot work ont he offensive end, even if it’s too slow for post collegiate NBA levels…..I get that until well mid season (Ahem now)…..we need Noah.
But I don’t understand the over reliance on Nocioni when Tyrus is playing well and has the upside. And I like Nocioni, unlike many here, he’s done some nice things for us especially the past 4-5 games after his horrid stretch….but pulling Tyrus when Tyrus has made some unbelievable plays and looked focused and in it, is unaccetable……I’d rather do the Noc-Tyrus 3/4 at the close than the Deng/Noc 3/4…..have Tyrus quickness/athleticism hedge against the Noc hustle but slowness……
Tyrus really should be our future (Tyrus and Rose). We should focus on Noc for trades—since Luol’s unmovable, and have Luol take it easier this year since he’s not performing consistently and is hurt….just until the Feb deadline…..then Rose-Gordon-Luol-Tyrus——-and whomever we get in trades should play (presuming Hinrich, Gooden, Nocioni are goners with maybe Thabo, Hughes joining them)
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
hinrich, gooden, nocioni, thabo and hughes all goners?
so you’re thinkin the Bulls are just gonna trade away 5 serviceable veterans who know the system in the middle of a possible playoff race? sounds far-fetched that paxson would go for that big of an overhaul mid-season while the Bulls are still playing competitive.
other than that i agree with what you have to say
by Danny Satan on Dec 30, 2008 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus and Noah are too small to play 4 and 5 together
especially if we have a small 2 guard and Larry Hughes at 3.
by robinhood on Dec 29, 2008 9:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
You're joking....right?
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 29, 2008 9:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
100 percent dead serious
you need to be able to get points in teh post not from a guy dunking a missed shot or making a wide open cut.
by robinhood on Dec 29, 2008 9:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gray has offense and can pass.
Joakim has defense.
Tyrus has even better than defense.
We need someone to score with his back to the basket.
by robinhood on Dec 29, 2008 9:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gray has minimal offense
They tried posting him up several times……he couldn’t get a shot to hit the backboard with the almighty Brook Lopez guarding him.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 29, 2008 9:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm glad they gave him the opportunity in the post though
Gray has post skills, he made the NBA because of them. But it just takes him so damn long to get set. I’m in the minority of Gray backers here, but he’s got to get chances to hone his post skills if he’s going to be get minutes after this year.
by YaoPau on Dec 29, 2008 9:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you in that they must go to him in the post
If Vinny insists on keeping Gray in the game, then using him would be nice. Problem is, they don’t do anything of the sort. They’re essentially giving him just enough playing time to show why he’s a bad basketball player, and you rarely see the upside in him.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 29, 2008 9:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you in the Gray-backing camp.
Criminally underappreciated. He’s leading the league in offensive rebounding rate. He’ll never be more than a back-up, but every successful team needs a back-up big guy that can do the things he does.
Part of the problem on offense is that when we get Gray the ball in the post, nobody does anything away from the ball; they just watch and wait. It’s like a pick-up game. We should be running some motion to get some well-timed cutters, or a 3-point shooter coming off of picks to Gray’s side, so that after he has his shot to make a move (or draw a double), he has a ready-made option to pass to. Something like the Spurs run with Duncan could work, where the guy who passes the entry curls around the block (for a possible hand-off) and keeps curling around the court (rubbing his man off of a couple loose picks) to eventually end up back at the top of the key or cutting into the lane. Simple motion, but goes a long way.
(And no, I’m not saying Gray is the same as Duncan.)
by arjoseph on Dec 30, 2008 12:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The thing I love about Gray is that he is always looking to make the next simple play. Whether thats looking for the occasional cutter, kicking it back out to rose to reset, finding someone open on the perimeter, or even doin some work on a little post move. He is always under control, he seems to have cut his turnovers and mistakes down (no proof just observation). I agree, VDN needs to start using Gray (as strange as that sounds) to open up things for the rest of the offense. I think Gray is an adequate big man right now with room for improvement as he improves his quickness.
by BooRad16 on Dec 30, 2008 12:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i think
you’ve confused being slow with being under control. But, I agree when he is out there it couldn’t hurt to use him for that “post presence”
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith
by tyrus4prez on Dec 30, 2008 12:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreeance.
He actually looks like a basketball player. If he works as hard this off-season as he did last one (he’s slimmed down quite a bit), and works hardest on his quickness and jumping ability, he’ll continue to grow and become more useful.
(Of course, if he pulls a Sweetney, all bets are off.)
by arjoseph on Dec 30, 2008 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"quickness" and "jumping ability" are probably the hardest things...
…to improve, physiologically speaking
he’d be better off staying the same weight but adding muscle/strength.
if you’re gonna be a lumbering oaf, be the strongest mo-fo out there
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 12:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Haha, that's true
Gray can jump though. His vert measured 32.5" at the predraft camp. That’s higher than Loul’s 31.5".
by YaoPau on Dec 30, 2008 12:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Same as me. Same as Shaq.
Still, though, it’s really hard to improve it once you’ve already worked on it, which I assume he has. Maybe marginally.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
32.5"!
You’ve got to be shitting me.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 12:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's true.
Link.
But, his not step was only 27". That’s a pretty big gap for a big man. He’s so slow loading up to jump that it doesn’t matter how high he can jump.
by Scotter on Dec 30, 2008 12:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, well that's ridiculous.
I was thinking it was 33", no step. P’shaw, Aaron Gray sucks.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 1:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"Hardest" is a bit too far.
Quickness is harder than jumping, but both of them are easier than (a) hand-eye coordination and (b) growing taller. Gray is already big enough; nobody except the biggest of opponents will be pushing him around. He certainly doesn’t need to add bulk, which would just slow him down.
There are very common and easy drills (at least, in a professional training facility; it centers on lots of quick, repetitive action against resistance or with weight on) that can help him with lateral movement, second jump ability, and jump explosiveness. Sure, he has a ceiling (he’s not going to become Tyrus), but even small gains for a 7’ guy can make a big difference in game situations. It’s basically just a specialized form of weight training, completely doable, and much more worth his time than adding bulk or working solely on cardio endurance.
by arjoseph on Dec 30, 2008 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I know all about that; I've trained in similar places.
And I assume Gray has practiced most of these things at least the past 5 years, if not longer. Doing that, he’s not getting much athletic. And I actually said “staying the same weight” but getting stronger. I don’t see the harm in turning his soft body into a harder one. Having muscle instead of fat would help as much as anything at this point in making him faster/quicker.
And I said “probably the hardest”, so no, it’s not a bit too far.
Plus, you can’t improve growing taller, so that’s just being stupid.
And I disagree that adding a 1/2"-1" in vertical is more helpful than adding enough strength to squat 100 pounds more or bench 50 pounds more. Lifting weights while staying the same weight and staying flexible and continuing to work on normal cardio drills and normal quickness drills never made anyone slower.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 3:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, I take your point on coverting softness into muscle.
And adding the leg strength would help him maintain post position one-on-one. I’m not saying he shouldn’t strength train. I guess I disagree with you on the extent to which he’s specifically trained for quickness and explosiveness in the past. And, as I said below, even if he has, these things tend to be cumulative; he hasn’t hit his ceiling yet.
by arjoseph on Dec 30, 2008 3:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no, they don't tend to be "cumulative"....
…although I’m not sure exactly what you mean. There is a definite second half of a bell curve effect to quickness and athleticism training than there is to strength training. (otherwise, you’d see guys jumping out of the roof at 30 years old instead of packing on muscle).
There’s a reason guys like Jordan and Kobe and Carter and… become more ground-oriented as they get older. Is Gray at his athletic peak? I don’t know. Would he make bigger gains in his game getting a lot stronger or marginally quicker? I say the former.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 4:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't positing the possibility of endless improvement.
I’m just saying that, to the extent he’s worked on improving his explosiveness and quickness, he should be able to keep improving at this point. The actions you do to improve quickness etc. depend on repetition and build over a longer period of time, thus the “cumulative” part. I never implied that strength training of the more major muscle groups wasn’t also cumulative, nor that it is more possible to keep getting stronger than to keep getting quicker (which you seem to think I’m saying). I think you can do both, and that Gray should do both. It takes more of a concerted effort and more time devoted to it to improve in quickness, though. I just think any improvement in quickness or explosiveness, even if it is just 1" on his standing vertical, will give him dimensions as a basketball player that he doesn’t already have (moreso than increased overall strength).
Also, dude’s only 24. He’s not even close to the period in his life when he’s going to start slowing down and naturally bulking up. He’s in his prime.
by arjoseph on Dec 30, 2008 5:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I said I didn't know what you meant by cumulative.
So… what you mean is if you work on something, you’ll get better at it? Wow, novel concept. I don’t doubt that.
It’s the law of diminishing returns, though. It happens with any part of becoming a better, but much more so with getting quicker and/or more athletic.
For me, it’s playing to his strengths. You want him to improve his weaknesses and think that he will be able to do it a lot and that somehow that will make him a dynamically better player. I say he plays to his strengths and gets stronger w/o adding weight or slowing down.
Whatever. We got to arguing about Aaron Gray and all I really wanted to argue was that professional basketball players can make noticeable improvements in their mid-20’s in their quickness and leaping abilities just by doing plyometrics and jumping around a bit. If that were the case, we’d see basketball players in their mid-to-late 20’s faster than the guys in their early-20’s. And you just don’t. That part is wrong.
However Gray wants to get better, I should care waaaay less.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 8:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you on this one
I don’t see quickness and explosiveness ever attributed to the big guy. If I could put him on one mission, it would be to develop an outside shot. He’s a good passer. He’s a big screen. Think of the possibilities if he could threaten/hit a shot off of a p&p. The lane would be clear for cutters and back screens, freeing up shooters.
I don’t really obsess over the low post back to the basket aspects of centers, as they tend to clog the paint with the attention they draw. Shaq was a freakish exception, but really, I think a lot more titles have been won by centers who played well from the high post or wings.
by California Al on Dec 31, 2008 2:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I want to see Gray lay someout out
to prevent an otherwise easy layup.
Go Old Skool!
by Granny Waiters on Dec 30, 2008 10:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I like
Gray as a backup, but I’m sick of him playing more than the 8-10 minutes per game. He’s too slow. He’s a nice 2nd round pick, and a nice breather backup, but unless we play one of the 3-4 teams in the league where his slowness isn’t accentuated by their height (Heat for one perhaps), Gray shouldn’t get more than breather minutes…..especially when Noah has the upside to be more than a career backup.
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
About upside.
Gray started playing basketball in high school. Noah always played basketball. Noah played at a great program with a great coach. Noah’s daddy is rich and I bet Noah always had the best trainers and what not.
My point is I really feel like Noah doesn’t have much upside. He is 23 and I think what you see is what you got. He was supposed to be ready for the NBa when he was drafted and now we’re waiting for upside. Gray is a 2nd round pick and he plays almost as much as Noah. I think that says it all.
Gray is a backup but i’d give him like 13-15 minutes.
by robinhood on Dec 30, 2008 12:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes!
Where can Noah’s game go? He might eventually develop one okay post move, maybe a PJ Brown-esque semi-jumper, but that’s really it. At best he becomes a good interior defender and vocal leader who’s marginal on the offensive side. I can’t think of one big man who came into the NBA without offensive skills and developed a post game.
Gray, though, has a post game. He’s a 7 footer with skills, and that’s rare. Sure, he’s slow, but he’s cut 20 pounds in the offseason, and if he does it again next offseason, who knows. Gray’s upside is higher than he’s been given credit for.
by YaoPau on Dec 30, 2008 12:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gray
Is already one of the slowest players in the league and he’s still really young. Gray is white and went to Pittsburg, which makes you think perhaps he wasn’t inner city poor like unfortunately a lot of the NBA (that’s not a fair stereotype but it’s true) so you can’t throw that out that just because Noah grew up rich, meant Gray had no advantages….
Noah is quick, has a high bball IQ and proved he can be much more than Gray as a rookie and in college….
Even if Gray cut 20 more lbs, he’d still be Paul Konerko slow….but the problem is in basketball especially in today’s game of quicker and more athletic bigs and the focus on the guard play, Aaron can’t just be hidden at first or DH, and Aaron isn’t in a class for his sport like Konerko or Thome are.
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 1:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sometimes it's good to be different
Big and slow is a matchup problem for the undersized quicker bigs playing today.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 30, 2008 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not when you're
slow as molasses and guys are running down the court before you’re there.
Big and slow is a matchup problem if you have Shaq…..not Aaron Gray.
I mean look at it this way Eddy Curry’s a better Gray and he hasn’t gotten a second of time this year.
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the slow argument hilarious
when Gray gets beaten up the court significantly less than TT/Noah. And no, I don’t have any stats to prove it.
Eddy comparison doesn’t fit. Gray is an excellent rebounder, Curry terrible. Curry also has significantly more offensive gifts.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 30, 2008 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And Curry's still
considerably better.
How about the Gray from the FT line defense then….both are atrocious, and Noah’s done a much better transition D game since he got his wind back in early Dec….
I can’t say I’m happy with Noah at all, but come on, it’s not comparable with the upside.
I like Gray in the 10-12 MPG spot minutes, but his days logging the 20’s and 30’s when we have Noah are ridiculous….
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose you can argue Curry is better,
but you’d have a hard time proving it. Neither player would play in D’Antoni’s system so it’s unfair to base Curry’s situation as a reason Gray shouldn’t be playing.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 30, 2008 3:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's inarguable
Curry was and is a better player over Aaron Gray…..even though I’m glad Eddy’s not on our squad….he at least had the post moves, but the offensive athleticism…..
And on games where Curry hustled he could snag a rebound, problem was he wouldn’t.
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 4:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually you're way off.
Curry does more in individual stats, but in team stats like adjusted +/-, Curry is one of the worst players in the NBA. Gray is nowhere close to Curry’s hideous numbers there. In fact, Curry was the 9th worst player in the NBA in adjusted +/-.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 30, 2008 8:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and most of the people worse
are scrubs.
by Jaina on Dec 30, 2008 9:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Curry combines Patrick Ewing level
talent with Benoit Benjamin desire. :(
by Granny Waiters on Dec 30, 2008 10:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Curry
Is still inarguably better than Aaron Gray.
Frankly I don’t understand the argument whatsoever. Curry can at least score the bucket with ease in stretches….he can’t be counted on for major minutes downt he stretch because of a lack of effort…
by majoyenrac on Dec 31, 2008 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No, the word inarguably is wrong.
Please read above. Just because you score points doesn’t make you better, especially when you’re a center who doens’t rebound and allow 3 points for every 2 you score.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 31, 2008 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There's a difference between half-court "slow" and transition "slow," too.
Gray will never be a run-the-floor center; he’ll always be slow that way, and more athletic guys will always beat him down the court. To the extent that we give up 1-2 five-on-four fast breaks in a game, I guess that matters.
That does NOT mean that he has to be slow in the half-court. As I posted above, with focused workouts you can improve your stand-still athleticism (second jump ability, lateral quickness). If Gray works on those, he could be a nice defensive presence in the post (especially if we have a shot blocker like Tyrus on the weak side to help). It would also mean he would have more chances off the boards or on post moves to create offense. That makes him a valuable center.
by arjoseph on Dec 30, 2008 3:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're saying those as if he's never worked on them.
Hardly any professional athletes get noticeably quicker or more athletic past the age of 24. I do challenge you to name some.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 3:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They do by significantly losing weight.
Strahan jumps out in my mind. With that said, and it was said somewhere in this thread, losing too much weight isn’t in Gray’s best interests when his size is his biggest strength.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 30, 2008 3:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just off the top of my head:
(1) Elton Brand (worked on getting quicker and lighter in the ‘04 off season, and it was both noticeable and effective, I remember because I read about it all off-season and was ready to snag him in the late second round of my fantasy draft; he beasted it that year, and was 25); (2) Shaq (I forget whether it was his first or second year with the Heat, but Shaq worked all off-season on quickness and on keeping lean — ostensibly to avoid injury, but it was noticeable on the court in how he could once again execute quick spins and drop steps to the rim). I’m sure there are more examples from the ranks of marginal NBA players who saved their careers by improving in these ways, but I don’t follow every player in the league.
Also, it doesn’t count against him if he’s worked on these things before (which I doubt he has that extensively, as he probably didn’t need to at Pitt, and last off-season was really the first he seemed to try to improve himself). Are you contending that Aaron Gray is at his physical peak right now? Just looking at him disproves that. And even if he has improved on quickness and jumping in the past, that doesn’t mean he can’t improve further. These things tend to get better through repetition and cumulative building until that point that your muscles and tendons lose recovery power and elasticity (usually, somewhere in the late-20s, early 30s). Gray’s in his physical prime right now, so that doesn’t apply.
by arjoseph on Dec 30, 2008 3:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's a fact that people are in their "physical prime"...
…in terms of quickness and speed in their early 20’s. A sports prime is later because players learn the mental part of the game and/or they’ve gotten stronger as well.
And yes, it doesn’t count against him if he’s worked on it before. You can decent gains if you’ve never done speed, quickness or plyometric work before, but their are very marginal gains after someone has worked on it before.
Shaq and Brand were significantly better athletes than Gray ever was. Shaq got fat, then lost weight to regain athleticism he already had. That’s a lot different than trying to create athleticism that was never there.
Brand, I don’t know enough about to refute. You can have that one person if you want. And expect Gray to be that one player, fine.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 3:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lets put it differently
As it stands, I don’t see much value to Gray. So what’s the downside of him losing weight?
There’s only upside.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Dec 30, 2008 3:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Losing his bulk advantage.
Seriously. I’d rather see him at 7’1", 270, 7% body fat than than 7’1" 250, 7% body fat.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 4:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gray lost 20 pounds in the offseason
and became noticably faster – I went to preseason game and wrote about it on BaB the next day. You’re looking for an example of a player getting quicker during his NBA career, and it’s Aaron Gray.
I’d love to see him stay at 270lbs and gain quickness, but it’s not going to happen. Gray is almost 7’2" with shoes on, so even if he drops another 20 he’ll still have a size advantage. But he has to get quicker, he’s too much of a liability defensively right now.
by YaoPau on Dec 30, 2008 4:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
See, he won't get quick enough
Even when he was “noticably” faster, you still said he was too slow. Even if he gets a little quicker, he’ll still be too slow to match up with the Patchouli’s and the Kaman’s and the Biedrins and Cambys.
He should maintain his current level of quickness and get stronger. While he still won’t be able to be fast enough to guard the skinny guys, now he’ll have the strength the better defend the Yao Ming’s, Shaq’s, Nene’s, Marc Gasol’s, Joel Przybilla’s. If he loses fifteen pounds, he might get a hair faster, but he’ll still be too slow and now those bigger oafs will push him around that much easier.
Bad idea.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 8:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
In addition to the ones arjoseph mentioned
I think Brad Miller came in at 270-280 during his first year with us. He was dreadful.
He worked at it and got back to his more reasonable 250-260 and looked much, much better.
I’ve said pretty continuously that Gray at 250-260 would be a meaningfully better player. He’d still be bigger and stronger than 95% of the league, but, although he’d still be slower than average, he might not be painfully slow.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Dec 30, 2008 3:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If Gray becomes Miller, that'd be great.
It could happen. I’m not saying it’s impossible. I’m just not counting on it. I don’t think losing another 15 pounds makes Gray so much quicker that he becomes some awesome athlete.
I’d rather he stay the same speed and size and become stronger than 100% of the league. Talk about a mis-match!
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying he'll be Miller
I’m just saying he’d be better. There’s a pretty straightforward case to be made for it.
On the other hand, I don’t see much case that he gets worse by losing another 15-20lbs
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Dec 30, 2008 4:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As I said above, I disagree.
Players 6’9", 250 will be able to get better leverage on the same weight, 4" taller Aaron Gray. Give him 20 pounds of muscle in his hips and thighs and no one’s moving him ever.
I look at Yao Ming as my example. Tall guy with little athleticism but some smoothness. Once he added strength, he was finally able to get and keep the positioning he needed.
Obviously, like you with Miller, I’m not saying he’ll be Yao Ming, but rather that’s the way I’d rather see him go.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 4:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Look at this way.
he lost 30 lbs and worked on his quickness this past off-season, right? let’s pretend it’s a straight one-for-one thing like arjoseph claims. it’s not, but let’s assume.
how much quicker and more athletic is he this year?
so he loses fifteen pounds… add half the quickness he just gained and he’s still slow.
I just see it as playing to his strengths. Yes, he needed to lose weight and work on quickness. That was good. I’d rather now see him add the strength (while losing fat, so staying the same muscle) and maintaining his marginal quickness he’s gained.
i dont think he has the body to get much quicker. i do think he has it to get a lot stronger.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 4:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
For a guy with a "reading comprehension" signature, you sure are putting a lot of words in my mouth.
I never said there was a one-to-one correspondence between losing weight and getting quicker. Getting quicker is different than getting lighter. I agree with you (as I’ve stated above) that if he stays the same weight but gets leaner and stronger, that’s a good thing. I’ve also stated (above) that I think he can get both stronger and quicker. In fact, if he gets stronger, he’ll probably add muscle mass, which is heavier than the fat he’d lose by getting in better shape, and thus GAIN weight. And that would be fine, as long as he’s also been working on the smaller, twitchier muscles that can move him laterally and up in the air more explosively.
Whatever. As someone said above, Gray’s a backup. I think he can be useful (and will probably remain a cheap contract his whole career), but it’s not that big of a deal.
by arjoseph on Dec 30, 2008 5:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's as much for me as others.
I just know that I at least try most of the time.
And I don’t see how losing a pound of fat and gaining a pound of muscle makes anyone heavier. It’s a lot easier to lose fat than to gain muscle. He could lose 10 pounds of fat in just a few weeks and work all summer and barely add on 10 pounds of muscle.
And no one is saying lift weights at the complete expense of anything else. Football players don’t. Why should he? I just don’t want him being 7’2", 250 pounds. He’ll lose a lot of usefulness then.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 8:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, this board has more Aaron Gray discussion
than Derrick Rose discussion. ;)
by Granny Waiters on Dec 30, 2008 10:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're giving him credit because our frontcourt is awful
Noah’s game can escalate like Tyson Chandler, or Marcus Camby, 2 guys who have gotten along fine with no discernible post moves or jump shot. PJ Brown was a post player in his younger years, if Noah could emulate his career I’d be quite happy.
Gray is not that good, period. If he gets better, that’s awesome. Fact of the matter is, he can’t go 1-on-1 in the post and get you 4-5 baskets, and if he scores he automatically gives it up on the defensive end.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 30, 2008 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Remove Camby from the discussion, and I'll agree.
I think Noah is much more similar to Tyson, although with better hands around the basket, and a better basketball IQ. Camby actually has an effective jump shot, and is in a unique class athletically. He’s broader and more explosive than both Tyson and Noah. But I agree with your general point, that Noah seems like he should develop into a useful starter-caliber player in the Tyson mold (like Tyson with Chris Webber’s passing ability).
by arjoseph on Dec 30, 2008 3:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gray and Duncan
There’s a very big gap between their interior passing abilities. That may be a big reason why you don’t see as many cutters when he gets the ball deep.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you sure?
Duncan’s obviously better, but I thought Gray was a pretty good passer for a big guy.
by YaoPau on Dec 30, 2008 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a huge gap between
“pretty good for a big guy” and actually running the offense though Gray. Gray’s an adequate passer, nothing special.
by Scotter on Dec 30, 2008 12:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You've compared Tyrus to Shawn Kemp and Noah to Ben Wallace
I’m not here to judge those comparisons, but I find it strange that you compared Tyrus and Noah to NBA all-stars, yet you don’t see any future for Gray.
A career 13.7 PER and .528 TS% isn’t bad for a 24 year old, especially since oafey 7 footers (Kaman, Przybilla) seem to continue improving through their mid-20s.
by YaoPau on Dec 30, 2008 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm realistic about Gray.
He’s been reasonably productive, but there isn’t any significant upside there. I don’t have an issue with him playing 10 minutes next year. He can play 15 minutes next year if it means Gordon’s back and Gooden’s gone.
Przybilla and Kaman comparisons don’t work. 1st, they were both 21 during their 1st NBA season, not 23 like Gray. 2nd, Przybilla is a guy I like a lot now. He was a guy that had a lot of athletic ability, but was completely raw offensively and needed to add strength. That’s nothing like Gray. Kaman is a closer to Gray, but I think Kaman is heavily overrated. Kaman is also more athletic, and ambidextrous as a post scorer. But, I don’t want Kaman anywhere near this team unless he only comes for trash.
For the record. I compared Tyrus to Kemp because he was the only similar player to Tyrus. I compared Noah to Ben Wallace in terms of their statistical similarities to each other in 2007/2008and because of their unconventional nature. I don’t think I’ve ever said that Noah is a future DPOY candidate like Wallace. The most similar player to Gray based on his rookie season was David Harrison.
by Scotter on Dec 30, 2008 2:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's reasonable
I’m interested in why you’re comparing Gray to Harrison, though. They seem like completely different players.
Per36 rookie years:
Harrison: 6.4 rebs, .6 assists, 2.6 blocks
Gray: 9.9 rebs, 2.4 assists, .9 blocks
by YaoPau on Dec 30, 2008 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I cherry picked that from
Hollinger’s similarity scores. I’m not sure I completely agree with it, but I’m not very motivated to look for a better comparison.
When I really want to look for similar players, I spend a lot of time looking at the individual statistics of dozens of players at B-R. That’s how I was talking about Kemp and Tyrus being similar before Hollinger’s similarity scores even came out for Tyrus.
by Scotter on Dec 30, 2008 3:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, someone actually agrees with me on Kaman!
Yay!
(I’m believing I said similar things and no one else did, even if that’s only partially true.=) )
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 2:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well Gray certainly is not the long term answer
but i really do think we will have a problem if are two low post players have narrow bodies and no post moves. That’s what really scares me. We need a player who can score with his back to the basket and Aaron Gray is very sadly one of the best players the bulls have at that especially with gooden out.
by robinhood on Dec 29, 2008 9:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why not try it and see?
Since, you know, they spent two Top-10 draft picks on the guys, wouldn’t you at least want to try it for… 25 minutes per game? You say they’re too small. I say everyone else is too slow to guard them.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 8:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What if Gray was the long term answer?
It’s not probable, but it’s easier to develop footspeed than a post game. His Per36 stats this season are 9.7 points, 12.1 boards, 2.5 assists. If he comes back from next offseason another half-step quicker, we have something.
by YaoPau on Dec 30, 2008 1:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"it’s easier to develop footspeed than a post game."
it is?
I’m trying to avoid Aaron Gray silliness, so I’ll just focus on that point and not how it pertains to Gray.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2008 1:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That is a bad comment.
It is absolutely not true*. We can David Thorpe this one tomorrow if YaoPau doesn’t believe it.
*Okay, not absolutely, as in every single case. It’s much easier to develop skills than athleticism. Not that’s easy, just easier.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 1:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
Can you think of any big man that came into the NBA without a post game, then developed one? Kwame, Tyson Chandler, Stro Swift, Sweetney, Drew Gooden, Przybilla, Araujo, Olowokandi…
On the other hand, guys like Chris Kaman, Joel Przybilla, and closer to home, Luc Longley and Will Perdue all became active enough to be serviceable. I’m not asking Aaron Gray to become Dwight Howard, but he can improve his quickness to not be a gaping hole defensively.
by YaoPau on Dec 30, 2008 2:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Upon challenge by Scotter
I hereby retract Przybilla’s inclusion in the second grouping and move him into the first. He’s right, Przybilla was skinny when he first came into the league. It’s hard to find a recent NBA comparison to Gray.
by YaoPau on Dec 30, 2008 2:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Paul Davis
Pryzbilla was skinny. I think he was really freaking young too. I guess he was sold on the “this NBA thing is about youth so throw your name in the hat”.
He became effective when asked to do what he’s very capable of doing: dunking, rebounding, and blocking shots. These happen to be the same three things I think we need out of our center.
I’d love to be renting Joel for the remainder of his contract while Noah is developing in the wings. Gray’s just inexpensive right now so his ineffective traits aren’t overbearing his effective traits.
This is partially the fault of some dude with a last name that starts with a “P”.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 3:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good one
I suppose Davis is about as close as it gets, although at 6’11", Davis isn’t an oafey center, he’s a normal sized center who just happens to be slow. Aaron can afford to be slow because he’s so huge.
It’s hard to gauge Davis though. He’s played just 600 minutes in three years, while Aaron’s already over 1000 in two.
by YaoPau on Dec 30, 2008 3:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Przybilla either
got kicked out or left school because of a coaching disagreement. That’s why he was in the draft so young. And he was a pretty good prospect obviously.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 30, 2008 3:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Was that it?
It’s not like he was drafted low. He was a lottery pick. So he had plenty of supporters to elevate his draft stock.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 31, 2008 8:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's surprising he was taken so high.
The coach suspended him for missing class so Przybilla decided it was time to leave. Seems like it should have been a huge red flag, guess not.
http://sports.findlaw.com/basketball/tarnished/01/index.html
by CJ Bulls on Dec 31, 2008 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt your case examples.
But I don’t have enough NBA history stored in my brain. I don’t understand what listing a bunch of players proves. As if there aren’t a few hundred NBA players in the league and that there aren’t at least 54 NBA players right now.
Besides, Sweetney had a post-game in the NBA, don’t know about college.
Shaq didn’t have a post-game but developed one. Dwight Howard is developing a nice post game. Carlos Boozer’s definitely wasn’t as good as it is now. I can’t imagine Eddy Curry’s was anything being a physically-dominating 7-footer coming out of college. Dirk Nowitzki and Pau Gasol have excellent post games and if you say they had refined post skills as 19-year-olds coming out of Europe, you’d be the first.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 2:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The list was of
all the lottery picks in recent memory who were supposed to develop a post game but didn’t, because it’s really hard.
Boozer and Pau had post games coming in. Of course they weren’t refined, just like Ben Gordon’s jumpshot wasn’t refined. But Boozer and Pau used more than just size and athleticism to score before they entered the NBA. The point was, players that only used size and athleticism to score in college (Tyrus, Noah) never develop a post game.
Dwight Howard’s an interesting case. You’re right in that he had no post game coming in. I’ve seen him a handful of times this year and saw a lot of slick baseline spin moves and drop steps, but nothing like a Boozer post game. If anyone breaks the trend though, it’s Howard.
by YaoPau on Dec 30, 2008 3:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If anyone breaks the trend I think it would be Garnett.
Everything he learned about scoring in the post, he learned in the NBA.
by Scotter on Dec 30, 2008 3:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
While that's true
I wouldn’t consider Garnett an established post player. He’s good at turning around and shooting over people in the post, but it’s not reeeaally a post game. There’s a reason why 73% of his field goal attempts this year are jumpshots.
by YaoPau on Dec 30, 2008 3:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get how this is a refutation to the original point.
I don’t want Tyrus Thomas to be Carlos Boozer or Chris Kaman. And I can’t find anyone who thinks he was going to be. If he learns enough post-moves as Garnett, that’s all I’d expect.
You’ve gone from saying “without a post-game” to wanting them to being only a post-player.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 3:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
You’re saying Garnett has learned to score from the post, therefore he has a post game. I see it as Garnett is one of the better jumpshooters in the NBA, and because he’s 7’1", a good portion of those jumpshots have come from the post.
If Tyrus never develops a post game but makes nearly 50% of his jumpshots, you won’t hear me complain. But this thread started with my saying Gray had an outside shot at being our answer at C if he cut weight and gained a half-step. And the chances of that are better than Tyrus/Noah developing a post game or developing a Garnett jumpshot.
by YaoPau on Dec 30, 2008 4:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No, it isn't.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 4:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Of those 73% a significant number
are turnaround jumpshots from the post. And he pretty much has .
by Scotter on Dec 30, 2008 6:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
become a guy who
demands a double team down there. And he’s a guy who the offense can run through. And he’s skilled at scoring from the post. That’s every I want in a post scorer.
by Scotter on Dec 30, 2008 6:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But Garnett does not have the classic back to the basket
low post game that very few players have these days.
by Granny Waiters on Dec 30, 2008 11:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He stilled became a completely
competent post player in the NBA in terms of skills. The original argument I was responding to was that those skills can’t be learned.
by Scotter on Dec 30, 2008 11:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Never? Seriously? You're going to make that claim?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 3:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It was past tense
as in, it’s never happened since I started watching basketball.
by YaoPau on Dec 30, 2008 3:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Even though you just agreed that Howard has done it?
And Shaq definitely did it, too. If anyone used athleticism and size to score in college…. and while he used being bigger and more athletic in the NBA, he had a post-game, too.
Andrew Bynum and Chris Bosh are others who have done it.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 3:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bynum has the advantage of being coached by the all
time great low post player.
“I would breath on his goggles and hope they fog up” – Red Kerr
by Granny Waiters on Dec 30, 2008 11:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The point doesn't change.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 31, 2008 8:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course it's hard.
I could list a lot of guys who were supposed to develop a jumpshot. Or get a better handle. We’re talking about improving to be among the best basketball players in the world. THAT’S A HARD THING TO DO.
The point is that it’s harder to get more athletic than it is to develop a post-game.
(I am also glad that you only refuted 2 of the 838 guys I mentioned.)
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Eddy Curry was drafted straight out of high school,
but likely would have benefited from playing in a good college program (or playing next to Elton Brand as a rookie).
by Granny Waiters on Dec 30, 2008 11:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Will Perdue was valuable for the Bulls.
But where can we find a Dennis Rodman level player in trade for Aaron Gray?
by Granny Waiters on Dec 30, 2008 11:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Brook the almighty!
lol
That was even a movie! Yah.
by BAB-Bass on Dec 30, 2008 12:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus's
Athleticism and quickness will allow him to get the points we need in the post. He definately can play with Noah, if Noah comes prepared like he did last night to play. Problem is Noah often looks like he’s sleeping out there….
They definately CAN play together and I think VDN needs to put them out there. Saying we need offense in the post and that’s why it has to be Tyrus and Gray is ridiculous. Aaron plays hard, but he can’t run, and is too slow to defend, so he’s been killing us out there anytime he gets more than 5-10 minutes per game.
To me Aaron Gray’s become this team’s Chris Duhon, except that Duh was a much better player…
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 7:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
VDN has been playing Noc at the 5
So I highly doubt he’s concerned about any lineup being “too small.”
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
by Big D on Dec 29, 2008 10:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lopez
He is actually pretty good.
Jo had an effektive game.
We aktually held someone under 100, Gooden can take his time with this injury.
by C Smoove on Dec 29, 2008 9:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Yay!
:::::::high 5’s everyone
"If there’s any haters in here right now that don’t have nobody to hate on, feel free to hate on me." - A.P.N.S.
by Belize on Dec 29, 2008 9:44 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Come on, yfbb...
you enjoyed tonight’s game a little bit…right? I thought it was Rose’s finest performance – he was totally in control of the team, and he and BG played off each other beautifully. Noah picked up 4 blocks, and – this might just be me – actually looks to be putting on mass and strength. Tyrus was good in limited minutes, and Nocioni actually played well. Well enough to get Colangelo in a lather, anyway…
we hope.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Dec 29, 2008 9:48 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I already know Rose and BG are good :)
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 29, 2008 9:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
point taken!
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Dec 29, 2008 10:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No mention on Derrick's amazing game?
It deserves something, jeez
by Option27 on Dec 29, 2008 9:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
maybe it means more that it doesn't get a mention?
I sort of expect it.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 29, 2008 9:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I figured that you might have just decided "It's what I expected"
But still seems notable especially due to the Harris match up and arguably his best pro game to date
by Option27 on Dec 29, 2008 10:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
VC gets out of control
the wild 3 he threw up…. he did that at the end of the last game we played them… and it killed their mojo the same then! he’s a great scorer and all… but that shot was total suckage.
by Jaina on Dec 29, 2008 10:07 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
That's what you get with him, offensive brilliance coupled with wasted possessions
He had a sourpuss on the whole game, probably pissed he couldn’t defend any of our midget guards. I smiled a little when he fouled Nocioni, I wanted to see if Chapu would use his “toughness” and start something.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 29, 2008 10:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That foul was my favorite moment of the game.
You could see it coming the whole time. I wish Noc would have pretended to be really upset about it. Instead he just took it pretty quietly.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 30, 2008 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Vince
though was AWESOME yesterday. Scorers take a bad shot here and there, but they would have been completely annihilated without Vince Carter. That was one of the best games of his I’ve seen in a long long while.
It’s funny because for a good 3-4 years there I’d always end up getting to see both Nets games in Chicago……I saw a lot of big VC scoring nights, but many of those seemed to come with a ton of forced shots. Yesterday, Carter wasn’t forcing much besides perhaps 1-2 attempts and was amazing.
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 7:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the comment
was definitely not to discredit the rest of carter’s game… just kind of amazing that he still takes those boneheaded shots. as i said he did it in the last game too.
by Jaina on Dec 30, 2008 8:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Vince posted Thabo
Vince posting BG? Meh.
Did the Nets even call this play once?
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Is it just me or is the nets coach really bad?
It seems like he doesn’t exploit any of the weaknesses we talk about on BAB constantly. Hell MPG wrote the guy a game plan.
And if I remember correctly in the first game simmons was really hot in the first half and then sat the rest of the game.
And finally I believe Stacy and Chuck said he calls a play ever time down.
by robinhood on Dec 30, 2008 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know.
Seems to me the Nets are completely overachieving…..and seems like Simmons was missing a lot of open shots, but making some covered shots.
The Bulls are and will forever be a tough team to beat if we get that kind of performance from Derrick Rose, while having everyone else focus on defense…..our guards are just too good when Derrick’s on fire like he was. Yesterday was Derrick’s best pro game on both ends.
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 12:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't know
I remember him missing everything I saw, and most of them were open. I was merely commenting on robinhood’s comment that he got streaky and thought perhaps he made a couple and those must have been covered, cuz I thought he missed every open shot attempt I saw.
My bad for not double checking.
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 1:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no worries
i had just recalled the NJ announcers saying he was 1-6 and i didn’t recall him making a shot after that point.
by Jaina on Dec 30, 2008 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
In the first matchup between the nets and the Bulls
Bobby Simmons was 5-11 fg 2-6 3pt 10 bds. 33 minutes. I thought I remember Stacy pointing out that Simmons was sat at a time when he was on a hot streak. Maybe, I don’t know.
Anyways I feel like no team should get outscored by 15 at home in the fourth quarter. Don’t know if that is Frank’s fault but something is bad in NJ. Gives me hope that bulls are headed to playoffs.
by robinhood on Dec 30, 2008 9:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ben Gordon was on too.
Certainly if DR and BG can continue to play that way together, they could be in the class of Thomas/Dumars as a back court tandem.
by Granny Waiters on Dec 30, 2008 11:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
they were all over Frank on the NJ blog
he deserves credit some credit for getting Devin Harris going.
They didnt seem to really have a whole lot of a game plan last night tho other than pray Vince saves us.
by reprisal on Dec 30, 2008 1:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Again though
When Rose has a game like that, and BG and Noc and Hughes are engaged (add in any other 3 Bulls in lieu of those) we’re an average team having a great night. Rose made Frank have to go into “please save us Vince” mode. THe Bulls have too much talent to be outmatched by a thin front court team when Rose is on like he was last night.
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thats not how it works
You make a game plan, you try to attack weaknesses. You try to minimize your weaknesses. You adjust your game plan, etc…and then if you lose, well you lose.
They were in save us Vince mode in the 1st quarter. Fortunately for them he was 8/10 and still taking pretty good shots.
Im not necessarily saying they should have won or not. Im just saying this is one of the few games this year where its very clear that VDN was NOT out coached.
by reprisal on Dec 30, 2008 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
When
the team is on fire though like the Bulls were, you can’t attack the weaknesses because you’re first trying to control the fire…..Vince was the only cooling factor they had early as Tyrus, Gordon were engaged from the start, and Rose was playing unbelievable.
Frank used Vince to weather that storm, hoping to stick close while tweaking the team’s play a bit to focus on their weaknesses, and he did turn the 10-12 pt turnaround into a lead, before D Rose and crew took over again.
It helped that our bigs and Noc had their best defensive games of the year……
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 1:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Noah had 32 minutes
Gray had 16. That means we played 48 minutes with someone you could somewhat reasonably call a center!
by reprisal on Dec 29, 2008 10:15 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Progress!
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
by Prevenge on Dec 29, 2008 10:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Can we just see a line up of...
Rose, Gordon, Sepholosha, Thomas, Noah? I mean throw them in the fire. Making the playoff would be nice but lets be real it would be 3 and out by Boston or Orlando so…I mean see what you have for next season.
Guys like Hughes, Nocioni, Gooden I really don’t wanna see back next season.
Let the blue chips play damn it!!!!!!!
why do I watch this team again?
by ImmanuelKant on Dec 29, 2008 10:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
We're so bad they won't let us play the last one?
;)
by BAB-Bass on Dec 30, 2008 12:21 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
New rule this year.
Win the first three, get the fourth free.
by arjoseph on Dec 30, 2008 12:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Recap for those ( like me ) who had to work =(
"If there’s any haters in here right now that don’t have nobody to hate on, feel free to hate on me." - A.P.N.S.
by Belize on Dec 29, 2008 11:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
LOL at 38 seconds.
Noah displaying his offensive awareness.
I just thought that was funny
by Syxx on Dec 29, 2008 11:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank ye.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
by Prevenge on Dec 29, 2008 11:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
liked that last highlight with the BG three
the possession before, Noc had the ball in the paint but brought it out to milk some clock. So BG could have done something similar, but was like ‘fuck it, I’m open’ and just launched the dagger (anybody miss Wayne’s ‘daggers’?)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2008 9:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wayne's daggers
May have been the most annoying thing about Wayne for me. The first one I heard use the term was Durham right at the end of the game. That was great. Wayne was up to about three or four “daggers” per quarter. I found myself yelling at the TV, “It’s the first quarter! That’s not a dagger, you idiot!” Maybe a pin prick.
by El Toro de Goro on Dec 30, 2008 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I miss Wayne in general
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 30, 2008 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sue me, but I miss Red Kerr getting excited and screaming
(not that it happened after MJ retired).
by Granny Waiters on Dec 30, 2008 11:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
just stating the obvious
but rose was awesome! i thought he was way more creative tonight than he has been in awhile.
by Jaina on Dec 29, 2008 11:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Nocioni on his 10 point fourth quarter:
“Sometimes I can do it, you know?” Nocioni said, smiling. “I was confident. But I took my open shots. That’s it. I did nothing special. When Derrick passes me the ball, I’m going to shoot my shot. I’m wide open.”
- Link
He may really be stinking it up lately and probably does need to be traded, but I still love the guy.
by Juiceboxjerry on Dec 30, 2008 12:00 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
i'm not sure if anyone else caught this play
Noc is on the perimeter darting back and forth wildly between his man behind the 3 pt line and VC in the post. Entry pass comes, VC spins, burns his man, and somehow Noc has already slid past his teammate in front of VC to draw the charge. It was a small and most likely overlooked play that sums up Noc’s defense pretty well – pure effort. The play was called a block but it was absolutely incredible that he rotated that fast. Noc was really in the game tonight.
by jeff_boschee on Dec 30, 2008 1:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that's ill
better than this:
smh @ myself for paying 60 bucks for his jersey
"If there’s any haters in here right now that don’t have nobody to hate on, feel free to hate on me." - A.P.N.S.
by Belize on Dec 30, 2008 2:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What kills me about this picture
and today’s Daily Dime is that with all of the Lopez-love, you’d think that New Jersey won last night…
--Torch
by torch on Dec 30, 2008 8:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it is?
Tyrus made him look bad early too.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2008 9:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's for the Bobcats and Timberwolves
Both of whom passed on Lopez despite the fact that both teams needed a center.
Heh, both teams still do need a center.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 10:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's insane...
he was okay. Nothing more. I thought Noah played just as well, frankly.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Dec 30, 2008 11:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought
Noah outplayed him……and Tyrus destroyed him, but they focus on the one play….those New Yawkers….(new jersey, but ya know who’s reporting it’s New Yawk and Conneticutians).
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 12:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
PS
Lopez took four steps on this dunk. It was a pretty good “Aaron Gray Shuffle” if you ask me.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
to be fair to the refs treatment of Noc
that was an offensive foul when he clocked Boone in the face
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2008 9:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Return no call
for the elbow Noc took to the face from Jarvis Hayes?
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 10:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
But Boone fouled him before the clock in the face too though. You just really hate Noc eh?
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 12:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
indeed
I hate his style of play and don’t find his antics endearing in the least. Not even in the ’you’d love him as a teammate’ kind of way.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2008 1:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What about it the
You’d love him as a teammate if he made $3M/year for 5 year’s kind of way :).
I like some of his antics, even when they aer a bit dirty, they’re not Dennis Rodman dirty….the complaining is a bit much at times, but the hustle makes up for that.
Then again I’ve always liked Sheed to a degree (though less so post the 2005 season Pistons as that whole team is just irritating nowadays and Sheed’s unprofessionalism in the playoffs is ridiculous).
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I want Noc's antics out of the league
seriously, flopping is an epidemic that just gets real players hurt.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2008 1:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Noc
to me at least hasn’t been the flopper of yesteryear…..this year. He has done the twist my arm tactic into the other guys to force a call, but that’s just as Stacey says “a veteran move” and that’s been in the league far longer than Noc has been in the league.
He used to fly all over the court on Defense and try to force calls, he’s not doing that because he’s not getting the calls, and since he’s not getting the calls, he’s really getting hacked more this year than he did in the past.
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 1:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Last of a dying breed
"If there’s any haters in here right now that don’t have nobody to hate on, feel free to hate on me." - A.P.N.S.
by Belize on Dec 30, 2008 8:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I never saw Rodman being a cheap shot player
in the way Bill Laimbeer was. The media overemphasized what Rodman did, while giving players like John Stockton a pass on their cheap shots.
by Granny Waiters on Dec 30, 2008 11:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Noc
reading between the line. I don’t force shots and it is up to Derrick to get me the open shots, instead of driving himself.
by Fastbreak on Dec 30, 2008 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Noc did drive last night
It helped that the Nets cleared the runway for him.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 11:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I was shocked again that Tyrus who to me looked to be playing very well again sat so long.
Frankly, I’m so sick of Aaron Gray these days……I wish he could just be injured. Joakim Noah again proved that he’s both the big with the much greater upside, and the more effective big in general (Aaron’s defense seems to have gotten worse of late, and it was awful to start with).
I also don’t understand the whole Thabo starting bs. Larry Hughes has been playing better ball all year. I know Thabo did adequately in the Hawks game and Hughes had an off night, but time and time again Thabo looks a bit out matched, and is being outplayed by the “un-legend”. Why not play a rotation of Larry/Noc at the 3 and just keep Thabo in our trade pile? The alleged lock down defender Thabo again could not guard Vince Carter at all yesterday.
Rose was spectacular, 2nd awesome game in a row. God I sure hope he keeps this up after a lackluster 2-3 week span prior to the Hawks game.
Devin Harris looked and played like complete crap yesterday. You can see his speed, but in terms of overall skills, I still see advantage Rose. Harris used to be a bit better as a defender, now he’s let that aspect slip and is trying to be more offensively oriented…. I know he’s better than he showed yesterday, but he’s no all star.
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 7:44 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
hard to have guys buried in the trade pile, for one
and I’m fine with Hughes off the bench. With Rose and Gordon starting, why have Hughes taking shots?
But I agree that Thabo proved once again he’s not a lockdown defender, despite having the body type for it.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2008 9:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I do agree and like Hughes a bit in the old Gordon spark off the bench kind of role (Especially since Hughes is likely ours til the end), but I don’t see why it’s Thabo and not the better Hughes and Nocioni in Deng’s absence I guess…..both of those two likely are more tradable than THabo, and THabo’s stock really has dropped a bit this year after dropping significantly last year to start only to get mediocre again…..
Noc and Hughes may have some real takers….
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 12:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Noah was too out of shape to play that long.
At least, that’s what I’ve been reading on here.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 8:15 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
you missed it
he was really professional in the layup line
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2008 9:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ya know, if Nocioni could play like he did last night more consistently...
…he’d be good and wouldn’t have to be traded.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2008 8:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, he wasn't that bad yesterday.
He had his rough patches, but down the stretch he played well. (Was +25, best on the team)
by BAB-Bass on Dec 30, 2008 8:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
he basically has to shoot 50% on three-pointers to be a net positive
but looky here: Toronto lost again (in Oakland)!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2008 9:25 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
heh
We even were witnesses to Vince Carter giving Nocioni a taste of his own foul medicine. I really wanted Nocioni to put a smirk on his face and complain about the contact. Where’s that acting ability when you really need it? Come on Noc. Dance.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 10:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yay we now have a lead for the eighth seed!
gotta love the NBA playoff system
BCB Works Miracles: It saved my English grade!
by Chanman25 on Dec 30, 2008 9:59 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Those rascal 8th seeds
Have eliminated the #1 seed in the West two years ago and last year in the East took the #1 to a 7 game series.
Playoffs are the second season. Everyone is undefeated at the start. The NY Giants dominated the NFL regular season last year.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
not applicable
this team needs a 5th seed to avoid Boston, Cleveland, and Orlando
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2008 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
orlando looks great now
but they dont put the fear of god in me come playoff time like cleveland and boston. i’m highly skeptical that orlando can be this good all year
by Calogero on Dec 30, 2008 12:13 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
They won 50 games last year
And only look better. If Dwight Howard doesn’t put the fear of God in you….then you are a brave person.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 30, 2008 12:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
especially against this group
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2008 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bulls played Orlando very tough in Orlando
I will be interested to see what happens tomorrow…especially if Gooden doesn’t play. Be interested to see what works better against Superman the wide bodied slow Aaaron Gray or the Fast/athletic but thin and weak TT/Joakim.
by robinhood on Dec 30, 2008 12:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
But I thought one of the reasons for our close game against Orlando in Orlando was that Hinrich’s D was on target all game…..Hinrich’s the bigger loss from early season to now than Gooden would be against this Magic team, especially if Tyrus can play like he’s been—and if he recovers from the “injury” folks are saying here.
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Our injured
and unfortunately now that we have the better Derrick Rose too much maligned PG, an upper tier PG in the league coming off a horrible horrible year who was looking better and then got hurt….
I’ll miss Kirk when he’s gone, but unfortunately because we need front court depth, I say trade him….it would really have been nice though to keep the nice 3 guard rotation of Derrick-Ben-Kirk…..:(
by majoyenrac on Dec 31, 2008 12:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We'll see though
I thought our quickness was a problem to a degree against Orlando…..of the big 3, they’re the one’s I’d want to face….of course we’re going to face them this time without Hinrich, so we’ll see……
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 12:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Howard's awesome though
But I do think our team is less in awe of them because they still tend to force the offense through Nelson/Turkoglu/Lewis first before they force it to D-Howard, and really if I were the coach, it would be Howard first second third, and then the other 3 in equal distant fourths….
I think because the others are featured too prominently on O, when they’re off their mark, Orlando can be beaten.
Of course Orlando’s been hot right now and the Bulls really haven’t, and we’re injured without Drew, Deng, and Hinrich….so for now not a fair fight, but of the big 3, I’d prefer Orlando in the East….and who knows the way Orlando’s going they might squeak into a #2 seed, it’s not out of hte question.
I think our team is too in awe of Boston….and James is the scariest player in the league in the post season (Kobe and D Wade included even if those 2 have been even better than James in bigger NBA finals stages.).
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Orlando is playing better
becaues Jameer Nelson is playing better. Howard gives you the same old 20, 14, and 3 every night. Nelson has been playing out of his mind lately.
They still take a ton of three point attempts. They’ll be EC contenders if the play of Nelson keeps up.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Agree
But I wonder in the playoffs if Nelson will flounder….that’s why of the 3 they are my pick. But yeah Nelson’s looking All Star credible to date, I just don’t see it continuing.
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It never has continued
Nelson was scoring almost 30 a game in college by getting to the rim and hitting outside shots. That wasn’t going to translate to the pro game, but a decent portion(17 a night, 5 assists, 40% from 3pt, and 6 FTA per night) should have translated.
He’s been inconsistent at the very time the club cleared out of all their other PG options.
You never know. Put a solid player on a good team with all star godfathers like KG or Kobe and you might have something special.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Aaron Gray
Am I dreaming?
Do you people understand what you are seeing?
There is a REASON all the Bulls guards want Aaron on the floor when they play.
Its because even though he really doesn’t score, he opens the entire paint up for them to drive.
He is a mountain in the middle, and THEY know it.
Noah flashes around, waves his arms and opens nothing.
His moving picks l;ast nanno seconds and then he moves as if he is THE play maker.
The other bulls see this and want Gray on the floor.
Coach is just starting to run a few plays into Gray, he then can take it or send it back out to open, and hopefully MOVING Bulls players.
Why can’t you see what his teammates see?
by ppellico on Dec 30, 2008 10:01 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
i never heard the other bulls want gray on the floor
what are you basing that on?
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 30, 2008 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"We just ran out of baskets offensively and couldn’t buy one," Nets coach Lawrence Frank said. "Give Chicago credit. They turned up the defense. [ o_O -ed.] We missed some open looks and our mistakes just sort of multiplied."
"I like to use 'I Can't Believe it's Not Butter' on my toast in the morning, because sometimes when I eat breakfast, I like to be incredulous.
How was breakfast? Unbelievable."
by chibullsfan03 on Dec 30, 2008 10:05 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I didn't know "turned up the defense" and Chicago Bulls would ever be said again in the same sentence
by chgobr on Dec 30, 2008 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Let’s hope “turned up the defense” follows this team…..I guess that’s one thing to not having a healthy Drew Gooden on the court.
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Benching Tyrus
Was he hurt? That’s a better rationale. He did tweak an ankle in the 3rd quarter, but looked like he was able to walk it off.
I do know that Vinny wasn’t too pleased with Thomas’ defense in the 3rd. Tyrus got yanked for not boxing out Yi. Now that’s bad because Yi camps on the perimeter. The Nets don’t even put him in the paint. And on the play, Yi had a clear path to the rim to follow a Harris layup miss for an easy dunk. Tyrus had stepped over to guard Jarvis Hayes who had his man leave him to help on the Harris penetration.
This game is too easy for Tyrus when the opponent makes it even easier with a simple task like guarding Yi and boxing him out. That’s all Tyrus has to do. Don’t space. Don’t lolleygag. Box out your man on every possession.
If Tyrus was not hurt, there was little chance he was going to get back into the game with Noc shooting well from the 4. Noc was even rebounding(thanks NJN frontcourt). Maybe Tyrus could enter as the center with Boone out there. But Lopez would have been able to push Tyrus around.
Oh how much I love to watch Larry Hughes shoot himself from 5-9 in the first half to a 6-15 for the game. At least he had the 5 assists. It could have easily been a 6-20 night.
A road win is a win, but the Nets are horrible home team.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 10:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
i think he was taken out for the ankle
When he tweaked it he was limping up and down court for the next two possessions. The NJN announcers made some comment after the second possession about how Thomas was still limping and looked hurt.
The next possession the ball went up, and Tyrus went from nursing the ankle to aggressively boxing out his man. I think the Yi thing was just another one of Tyrus’ mental slip ups – he’s usually quite good about boxing out.
by jeff_boschee on Dec 30, 2008 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus forced about 3-4 shots in a row
He started to play the way he played at the beginning of the season. I thought he was out of control trying to take over the game when, mercifully, he was benched and did not come back. He can’t just let the game come to him, he gets confused and starts to take bad shots, drive to the basket when it is defended and takes well-defended shots leaning back. I hope he learns to pass when he is confused and he’ll be a better player. I get the impression Tyrus is not the brightest of fellows on the court.
by Fastbreak on Dec 30, 2008 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus took 2 shots in the 3rd
one was a fade and one was a jump shot…I agree the fadeaway wasn’t a great shot but the other shot was a wide open jump shot. If he passes up the jumper and drives it’s a charge waiting to happen. It’s amazing if he makes that shot it turns into a good shot but if he misses it’s an awful shot attempt.
I hope VDN took Tyrus out because of his ankle not those 2 shot attempts. It sure seemed like he blamed the slow start in the 3rd on Thabo and Tyrus.
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith
by tyrus4prez on Dec 30, 2008 11:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Know Your Personnel
If he passes up the jumper and drives it’s a charge waiting to happen.
Guys that don’t take charges: Vince Carter, Vince Carter, Vince Carter.
The player standing between Tyrus’ jump shot attempt and an open lane to put someone in a poster: Vince Carter.
We need Tyrus’ mind to catch up to this athletic ability. If it can get there he will be awesome.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 11:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry
but I can’t hate on him for taking a wide open jump shot
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith
by tyrus4prez on Dec 30, 2008 12:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope Vinny took Tyrus out because of those shots
I want Tyrus staying in the paint all game. Tyrus is a terrible shooter, and he has to understand that.
by YaoPau on Dec 30, 2008 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
a PF needs to be able to hit an outside jumper
I have no problems with him taking it if he’s in rhythm and open. When he dribbles into it, or jab steps…then it’s trouble. Saying he should always be in the paint is off-base, especially in the ‘get out of Rose’s way’ offense.
And he does not have terrible form, anyway.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2008 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He also
has greatly improved the form and the arc in his shot, something rare for a big man so early considering how awful it was early on. I think Tyrus’s issues have been mostly confidence….he forces a shot to say “look at me” but then gets too excited and the shot rims out.
He’s been markedly better of late.
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus can make these jump shots
if they’re in rythym and he doesn’t hesitate to take them. His opponent is giving him the shot. Catch, gather, elevate, release.
Thorpe told us many times over the Summer that Tyrus can shoot the ball and should have plenty of chances to showcase the skill.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 2:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you want him to pull Tyrus
for an open 11 foot jumper that hit the back of the rim?? jeez talk about a quick hook. If this was the case around the NBA, there would be no players left to play.
Everyone says he needs to develop some sort of an outside shot, which he has. It’s a work in progress but he should be able to shoot when WIDE open. The fade away is a different story but it just seemed like Thabo and Tyrus got the blame for the slow start and were done for the game.
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith
by tyrus4prez on Dec 30, 2008 2:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He took two bad shots
And, granted how many people are going to pass up an open 16 foot jump shot? It’s a very short list there.
The thing that Tyrus HAS to work on is preventing Rose from getting zoned off after setting a screen. Stacey has pointed it out countless times by now. Tyrus or other big man sets a screen, and just chills at the top of the key. Rose drives hard to the hoop and is met by 3 defenders. Rose now has to go back out, reload and drive again, or pull off a crazy pass in traffic. Tyrus just has to run down the middle of the floor, force someone to guard him, and Hughes/Nocioni/Gordon will always have a jumpshot to take if Rose finds them.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 30, 2008 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know for sure, but his missed 6 of 9 shots.
I recall that he started the game well. Taking good shots and making one or two when opened. He also drove to the basket and scored. That means that we must have been maybe 1 for 7 in the second and third quarter. I decided to not stay home to watch the Bulls anymore if I have something to do. So I stopped watching at the start of the 3rd quarter. I think he was benched for forcing shots. I prefer that to being injured. I also wish, he’ll play more. The team can only get better when the young players improve. Even Gray can improve and Noah is just a motivation issue.
by Fastbreak on Dec 30, 2008 4:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Except for Golden State who has played 20 road games to 13 home games
the Bulls are tied for second with Milwaukee at 18 road games and only 13 home games. Now if we could only play like we did last night. Rose is truly amazing me the way he is taking over this team. Next up, the daunting task of Aaron Gray trying to dominate superman. LOL
by chgobr on Dec 30, 2008 10:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Nocioni actually committed a foul!
Did anyone else notice in the 2nd quarter, devin harris slid under Nocioni to take a text book charge. Now normally this doesn’t mean much in the grand scheme of things…but i’m pretty sure this was the first foul all season where Nocioni didn’t put his hands up a)put his hands up awkwardly b) give the whatttt meee?? routine to anyone who will listen c) stare down a ref or d) repeatedly look at the scoreboard hoping for a replay to prove his point.
I have seen every bulls game this year, and this is by far the most annoying thing about this team (the same team that has given me headaches all year) do you think that Nocioni has finally learned that this is not helping his case and that he will continue to rack up foul calls and generally not get the benefit of the doubt? I think any non-spurs fan can agree that this “tim duncan” routine does not help. Now I’m only midway through the 2nd quarter in my late viewing of the game but one can only hope that i’m not making a quick conclusion and that nocioni is finally coming around as a professional basketball player.
by BooRad16 on Dec 30, 2008 11:35 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
The Noc hands dance will return in the 2nd half viewing
I really hate the complaining. Pocket the thoughts. Communicate them to your coaches. Let them do your bidding from the sidelines.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 11:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Couldn’t agree more. I feel like he was making a conscious effort not to argue, but old habits die hard and i just saw him do it again. I feel that other players (mostly hughes) spend a lot of time talking with the refs after Noc does his song and dance trying to do some damage control. I can just picture them saying, “hey he does this every game, just ignore him…don’t hold it against us everyone else in the arena knows it was a foul except him…” makes me sick
by BooRad16 on Dec 30, 2008 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone ever seen?
Larry Hughes goes up for a shot. Doesn’t take it because Noah is open underneath. Passes to Noah. (Wait there’s more.) Noah catches the ball (still more) and puts it in the basket. Sign of the apocalypse?
by El Toro de Goro on Dec 30, 2008 12:01 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
It's a wonderful life
Cavs fans tell me everytime Hughes gets an assist an angel in heaven gets their wings.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 1:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you know
i can’t believe no one has mentioned the ball bouncing off noah’s head yet.
play of the game right there!
by Jaina on Dec 30, 2008 12:25 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
it was his back
I don’t give him too much flack for it, if I saw Gordon jump in the air with the ball, I’d assume 99 times out of 100 he’s shooting it and turn for the rebound.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2008 12:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
looked like it was his head.
and no, i don’t blame noah at all. it was just funny because it bounced right to hughes who still got the layup.
by Jaina on Dec 30, 2008 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
or should i say, i remembered it being the back of his head
but i could easily be wrong.
by Jaina on Dec 30, 2008 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Did Noah get scored with the assist?
He has 1 in the box score for the 3rd quarter.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2008 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Can the Blazers please have Kirk Hinrich?
We’ll give Raef. Thanks. Nice doing business with you.
by Cablinasian on Dec 30, 2008 1:28 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
done.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2008 1:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
done
squared. Maybe Raef and Webster for Nocioni and Hinrich….though I don’t know what Webster’s contract status is, I know it’s an extention, but don’t see it on Sham.
We let Raef go, we let Gooden go, we sign Boozer or a decent big this offseason and resign Gordon….
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 1:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Webster's getting about 4 million per season.
From all indications from Pritchard, he isn’t leaving. We don’t want any part of Noc either.
by Cablinasian on Dec 30, 2008 1:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
nobody does :(
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2008 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't hate Noc
But with Deng, Noc is ridiculous. I think Noc might do well, and as a fire sale to make you guys much better with Kirk, you should have to take our unnecessary contract.
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think if we have to take Noc back
we don’t make the deal. Hinrich’s contract is bad enough… you’d probably see us add young talent into the deal before we took back a bad contract.
by Cablinasian on Dec 30, 2008 2:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Noc
on a contender off the bench though is quite a force. Having him come in to give that spark plug would be great…..
But whatever, I don’t think the Raef firesale is the best bet for Hinrich either.
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 3:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"Hinrich's contract is bad enough"
Uhh, wasn’t it you who said please just a second ago? First rule of business: you need me, youkiss my rear. Ineed you, I kiss yours. Let’s see, do we need Raef? Realistically, you should be talking about Joel. A good trade is one that makes both sides say ouch a little, but accomplishes higher purposes for both.
by California Al on Dec 31, 2008 12:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
my point was that
the Blazers would probably rather take one bad contract and give up young talent, as opposed to taking two bad contracts. I just can’t see Pritchard tying up the cap like that.
by Cablinasian on Dec 31, 2008 2:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point, but
it’s kind of Blazer-centric. Kirk is a very good point guard. In fact, until the emergence of Paul and DWill, he was considered elite, getting a looksee with the Olympic team. Pax ought to be able to get better than expiring for him.
I don’t think Pritchard can be too concerened about the cap. You know Roy and Oden are going max, with LMA not too far behind. As far as young talent goes, we’re kind of full right now, unless you’re talking about one of the big three. Paxson’s indicated that there is a “type” of player he wants around Rose; not too sure what that type is, but I’m thinking a good catch and shoot wing, possibly a good-shooting screener.
by California Al on Dec 31, 2008 2:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
its obvious to me that noc
plays because he stretches the floor and plays hard. I think that beats out his defensive lapses in VDN’s mind.
by mandoman10 on Dec 30, 2008 2:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh!
I want this to go down and then see everyone next year complaining how Pax dumped Hinrich for nothing and should be fired.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 30, 2008 2:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we should dump Kirk
For Howard Eisley.
by majoyenrac on Dec 30, 2008 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's this taxing life we live
blame the chairman.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2008 2:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Are they though?
the tax is going to be around 72mm next year with only 56 in committed salaries right now (Gray, Gooden, Gordon not included). It sounds like they should be ok if they re-sign Gray and then one of the other two, presumably Gordon.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 30, 2008 3:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Tyrus looked good starting
too bad he got hurt early on. Seems to me that every time he has gotten run in the past month he is producing for us. He has just had some really bad timing with injuries (dizziness and now this ankle). Im not sure i agree with the implication that VDN benched him for his usual odd reasons… I just think he got hurt or something.
I really see Tyrus coming on strong. He is making jumpers. Driving to the hoop well against slower pf. Producing steals and blocks. and getting to foul line. hes still learning but he is producing on the floor.
by mandoman10 on Dec 30, 2008 2:29 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
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