Always a process, never a plan
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 8:35 AM CST
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PrintWith Drew Gooden and Tyrus Thomas out over the weekend (and who knows how much longer), it was a welcome surprise that the Bulls were able to win at home against the Jazz. I certainly was not expecting it.
Small-ball, in general, sucks. But Vinny really had no choice in that game. (Though maybe that's how he likes it.)
But I can't help but be a bit miffed that Mr. Matchups keeps Luol Deng on the bench for the final 17 minutes of the game. This is the second time this season it's happened with Deng.
It's one thing to accept a 'rotation' where young big men are largely ignored (Noah played very well Saturday yet also sat most of the 4th and 20 minutes overall), but is Vinny so beholden to 'matchups' that he can't even play his $72m (supposed) cornerstone SF ahead Nocioni, Hughes, and Thabo?
Is it too much to ask for this team to have an organizational plan? Find out what the young players have, let your best players on the court with Rose, don't try and gimmick your way through everything? Not everything is about winning that night's game, and they haven't shown to be able to do that more than lose them anyway.
Just make a trade already, so we can retro-actively call some of this nonsense 'showcasing'. I still think it's a coach still not having any idea who to play, and a GM not wanting to give any instruction.
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unfortunately...
…i think you are spot on. I hope there is a ‘secret’ plan that we haven’t fathomed, but I’m pretty sure this is just Vinny pulling stuff out of his you-know-what. He hasn’t been a complete disaster though, at least he plays Rose a lot.
by bullsfaninbigapple on Dec 22, 2008 8:55 AM CST reply actions
true
plays Gordon a lot too.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 8:59 AM CST up reply actions
i think you're right
i don’t see other teams do things like these. Look at Thabo, he actually started the first few games, then didn’t play at all, then resurfaced, getting burn in crunch time while Deng sits.
This is not even about Deng or Thabo, is about the rotation, stick to one and adjust only when you have to. Do you think the Jazz tought about not playing Deron because Rose showed he could drive by him? This matchups obsession is madness.
I don't even need a set rotation, they don't have enough reliable players
but there has to be some kind of base-line substitution philosophy. One of which should be playing Luol Deng, for chrissakes.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 8:59 AM CST up reply actions
Not sure I agreed with him playing Thabo late
He is a much more solid defender than Deng and he was shooting better than him even.
Deng of all guys
i mean, sure, maybe somebody defends better than him, shoots threes better, but c’mon, overall, Deng is our best option at the position.
Now u already know what I think about why Luol doesn't play at times Friendly BullsBlogger.
But I won’t argue with you here…LOL.
But I agree 1,000,000% that we need to establish some sort consistency with our lineups. I can’t stand it when coaches continue to tinker with the lineups and masks it by calling it “match ups” like Vinny does. It wreaks of what Avery Johnson did in the playoffs against Golden State when he played the matchups instead of just going out there and doing what it is you do. But I guess we’re just gonna have to see where we’re going with this whole thing.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Dec 22, 2008 9:27 AM CST reply actions
It's funny to see the lineup that sealed the deal in the 4th
Rose/Gordon/Thabo/Hughes(or Thabo?)/Nocioni
I wish Rose had an actual 4 or 5-man he can dish it out to in the center, and how easier this season would be if he did.
We are not sure what our identity is.
It seems that VDN is trying to find out who we are which is a factor in the multiple lineups. Despite my own, at times Noce hate Noce did a reasonable job at Center in the small lineup. I also liked Thabo getting some minutes which impacted Deng’s minutes. My sense is we are still a work in progress which means multiple line-up experiments. Wait until Hinrich returns to see the full extent of small lineups.
They were Rodman rebounds
Though still scored by the NBA as rebounds, Noah was tipping the ball back of the glass to himself. They were tip in attempts, but he just couldn’t make them. I had 6 of these offensive boards as just missed tip ins.
Stacey King was harping on Noah for this. He wanted Noah to just grab the rebound with two hands and go right back up for the dunk.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 22, 2008 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
i completely agree with stacey on this.
i was mentioning it on the game thread before he even started saying it on the telecast. he either needs to control his tip ins better, or he needs to get control of the ball and actually put it back up properly. some tips are ok, but his are incredibly wild.
Big man coach?
Yea, we need one. Gray has the same problems down low. he gets boards and then he brings the ball down to his waist. You might as well give the ball to Rondo.
Big men keep the ball high and they keep two hands on it. Just dunk it baby.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 22, 2008 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
we definitely need a big man coach
i was really disappointed that mike brown didn’t stay on with vinny. when you have 3 young, talented (well at least in the case of noah and thomas) bigs, you need to help them. we already wasted this opportunity with chandler and even curry. finally we get a big man coach on staff and he goes away.
gray has horrible hands anyway. i haven’t seen anyone since curry as bad as hanging onto the ball.
You must have suppressed memories of B*n W*ll*c*
taking inside shots.
by Granny Waiters on Dec 22, 2008 11:34 PM CST up reply actions
bulls
didnt have enough money to pay for both a big man coach AND a head coach. Actually they didnt have enough money for either so they just got VDN.
by Sambossanova on Dec 22, 2008 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
THE
fact that we don’t have enough money for this or that yet we’re something like top five in attendence makes me puke. I really would like to know how much profit the Bulls make each year.
by Bulls Mouthpiece on Dec 22, 2008 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
Tons
The Chairman is doing just fine according to Forbes. The Bulls were once again the most profitable club in the NBA last season.
All bets are off moving forward though. Every owner in the league will have ample data to cite to beg off the “Scrooge” moniker.
I think it’s safe to say the Bulls are in terrific financial position to weather the storm.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 22, 2008 12:09 PM CST up reply actions
The Bulls were already paying full price for one head coach.
He is in Milwaukee…there is very little left to spend when you are subsidizing the Bucks coaching staff.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
except, y'know, they are paying Vinny peanuts
and a big man coach wouldn’t cost more than a million a year and the Bulls had $55 million in operating income, I think they could spare it.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 22, 2008 4:56 PM CST up reply actions
This is definitely true
but just tipping the ball around helped us out a lot. A couple points, another possession or two…but mostly it takes some of the burden of our terrible terrible transition defense if they dont get every rebound uncontested like usual.
tipping is better than doing nothing
but we’d actually score more points on the putbacks if he’d just grab it and put it back strong. more chance of either a dunk or foul.
I honestly can't imagine this is a real problem.
And even if it is, that it can be taught to be stopped. Tipping the ball alive is perhaps Noah’s best attributes. It’s an instinctual thing. One has to be a good 4 or 5 inches closer to the ball to be able to solidly grab it with two hands. In fact, Noah is probably able to even get to many of the balls he tips because others are trying to grab it, and he reaches with his fingers, gets a little further and tips it in a direction he wants.
Of course, maybe it looked really bad this game, as if no one was around him reaching for the ball at all. But I would argue, (vehemently but with no evidence to back up my claim), that if tracked over an entire season, it’s far more beneficial for him to tip than to try to grab.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
it's situational, really
there were definitely a few instances where it would have been beneficial for him to just grab the damn ball. he also tips kinda aimlessly, and if he had more skill in doing so, it wouldn’t be so bad. but much of the time his flailing still gives the other team the ball.
Noah needs 2 grab the ball and then go up again strong....
He is to uncoordinated to do good tips…..and please refer to Noah,s wild tipping as slapping haha
It was the Jazz
and it worked. They’re one of the better teams in the West. OK, they’re not the best road team, but can’t they beat an opponent’s front court where nobody is taller than 6’7"? That’s pretty weak.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 22, 2008 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
if boozer had been playing
it would have been a disaster, i think. but memo can’t post anyone up anyway and they were playing paul millsap and AK, neither of whom are that tall.
i still would have liked to see deng in there though.
Well Milsap can hold his own quite well
He scored 32 points against the Celtics, and well he pretty much did whatever he wanted against the Bulls offensively.
Take note that the Jazz are the worst team in the NBA on the 2nd game of back to backs (1-6), and had just completed a hard fought OT battle with the Pistons the night before. On the other hand, while the Bulls played on Friday, the starters were on the bench after the 3rd quarter.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 22, 2008 1:22 PM CST up reply actions
wasn't a knock on millsap
but he is a little smaller than boozer, though boozer’s also undersized. and the point about the back to backs is fair enough – especially if they had boozer, both guys would be more rested. i’m just picturing the clips and zach randolph, and how if they had someone posting up every possession towards the end, there’d’ve been no way we could have trotted out a lineup with noc at center and not even have deng out there.
Yeah, all the gimmicky crap is getting pretty ridiculous.
I could absolutely deal with a few more losses if I felt we were moving in the right direction. I don’t think people around here want a trade only because we’d be getting a new (and hopefully good) player. It has more to do with finally being able to see what the heck this organization is thinking. Depending on what Pax does, hopefully we can get a feel for what he’s trying to accomplish and how.
Maybe the plan is......
to win the game!
Even though they totally blew it by not signing Gordon, they have won 13 games and 5 in a row at home. Last year, they were getting booed off the court after multiple home losses. Remember how bad it was?
I have higher expectations
and I did boo them off the court after watching that clippers game
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
So is it an issue of them not meeting winning expectations(for this year)
or is it an issue of them not playing their young players? I don’t see how, coming off of last season’s debacle, that expecations could be that high for this year. In my eyes, they have at least matched what I thought they would be able to accomplish this year.
"Derrick Rose is like a $500,000 Maybach parked in the driveway of a $200,000 house in the middle of nowhere" - Bill Simmons
by RogersPark Kris on Dec 22, 2008 11:44 AM CST up reply actions
I want them to play young players and as a result of that, win
Saying they’re going for wins by starting Aaron Gray makes little sense to me.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
The team is 6-5 with Gray starting
7-9 when he doesn’t.
MVP, MVP, MVP, MVP!
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Dec 22, 2008 12:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Sarcasm appreciated
but when I list the problems of the Bulls, 10mpg for a center who statistically is performing as an effective backup isn’t my worry. And it hasn’t hindered any victories.
sure it has
and besides, the problem is Vinny, not Gray. He thinks this is a good idea.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 1:02 PM CST up reply actions
You must be assuming superstar Tyrus/Noah were showing up
because TT/Noah, as currently playing, weren’t doing any better.
How can you validate Gray starting?
They don’t even go to him in the post, so what’s the freaking point? These drones on CSN always talk about how Gray is our “back to the basket” guy, well evidently no one on this team or coaching staff even trusts him to score 3-4 baskets in the post because I have yet to see them dump the ball to Gray on any sort of basis. Hell, he’s even a decent passer so you could run cuts off him and get Deng the ball in the post. I see that maybe once a game….and then never again.
So, for a guy with already limited basketball skills, what is the point of starting a guy who they don’t even bother using?
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 22, 2008 1:40 PM CST up reply actions
I validate it by the team's record when he starts
and his statistics, which show him to be a promising backup big. And playing 10-15 mpg qualifies as a backup big. He’s not out there in the 4th so there’s no reason to be up in arms about it.
He’s the one player on this team big for his position (I suppose Rose/Deng come close) and the players backing him up have played horribly this year.
Oh, and he has a positivie adjusted +/- (yes still only 27 games):
http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?year=2008-2009&team=CHI
And no announcers or coaches seem to have a problem with him. Only this site seems to hate him.
keyword backup
he shouldn’t be starting. it was a stupid ploy when thabo was starting and got his 10 minutes that way, and it’s stupid now.
i actually hate gray far less than most other people do on this site, but he should get his minutes with the second unit, because at best he’s a second rate center. i have no problem with giving him 10 min a game when we need a big body out there and he’s really not horrible. he’s just not a starting center.
So because he's starting it's a problem
The idea of starting is an artificial idea. It has no real value VDNs subbing patterns means everyone gets ample minutes with Rose if that’s your gripe.
Well, if the other team is actually starting their best players
and the Bulls clearly are not, then you’re giving the other team an advantage for 10 min/game. That difference may not be huge, but in a close game it’s likely pivotal.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
I would strongly disagree then.
That type of difference is so slim it’s irrelevant. Just like batting order has little effect on production in baseball and because most NBA teams don’t start their 5 best players.
Not to mention no other bigs have statistically outperformed Gray this year to any sort of signifance if at all.
Over the long run, no it's not likely to make a huge difference
As with baseball lineups, maybe in the optimal lineup/rotation results in 1 extra win. That 1 extra win could be big in the end. Plus, the ebb and flow of a basketball game and direct interaction of its participants is likely to make basketball rotation usage more significant than a baseball lineup. I don’t have any statistical evidence for this, so I’ll just quit.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Agreed
I’m not prepared to have it either. But 1 win for a baseball team is probably a lot less than 1 win for a marginal player, in 82 games, for 10 mpg which amounts to only 1 at bat.
lets get this back on a sensible path
when a player starts (with Rose, mind you)….it’s two guaranteed stints. We know Vinny basically figures out his rotations based on a dartboard ’who’s playing well’ that night. So if it was Tyrus or Noah every single night they’d get that many more opportunities to succeed. Instead we’re giving Gray these opportunities. And, yes, he’s big and slow and bad.
I mean, what the hell is wrong with this picture? Are we not rooting for a real NBA team? Why is this goof starting, to the point where we actually have arguments over his production and development. It’s friggin’ crazy.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 4:07 PM CST up reply actions
I just wonder if Gray
came out the year before, when he was projected mid 1st round, if you’d be saying the same thing. Hibbert is just as slow and I’m sure Pacers fans don’t care if he’s starting. You’re just caught up in him being slow and a 2nd round pick.
Other than being slow, he does very little else wrong. And Rose plays 38 mpg. So for 28mpg TT and Noah can get time. I doubt those extra 5-10 minutes they miss stunt anyone’s development.
The combination
of Rose/BG/Deng/Thomas/Noah has been used for a total of 34 minutes this year. That’s a problem
Especially when Rose/BG/Deng/Gooden/Gray is the second most used lineup.
by CrashDavis on Dec 22, 2008 4:55 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Of the top 10 most used lineups:
Gray is in #2/9/10
Noah is in #1, 4, 7, 8
Thomas is in #3, 6, 8, 9
All 10 have Rose in them. Guess that kills the Rose doesn’t get enought time with Noah/TT argument.
Things Aaron Gray does wrong
that aren’t about money or where he was drafted.
1) Ball handling for big men: he regularly brings the ball down to his waste leading to TOs.
2) He frequently falls asleep on boxing out instead thinking, mistakenly, that his size will give him all the position he needs to rebound
3) Standing tall and straight on defense: aka centers playing defense 101.
Good news. He can improve in all of these areas. Just show me baby.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 22, 2008 4:57 PM CST up reply actions
Notes
1)Gray has lower TO rate than TT or Noah
2)Gray has higher rebound rate than TT or Noah
3)Gray defends big centers better than anyone on this team.
agreed
Thomas and Noah have not had good starts to the season.
It has nothing to do with Aaron Gray. He has nothing to do with anything.
And he doesn’t defend big centers better. He can stand behind them better…and then foul them. And foul any guard coming out, or be late closing out on a shooter. He’s too slow.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 5:48 PM CST up reply actions
That's fine
but if you want to throw Joakim Noah out there against the Yao’s and Dwight Howards of the world, the team will never win those games.
So Gray has outplayed them in several key factors. And he hasn’t cost them games yet still you choose to bash him. With no evidence either, you just choose to think he’s horrible.
think of it this way
whatever Noah and Tyrus don’t become ultimately costs them games. For some perverse reason, Aaron Gray is taking minutes from them. So Aaron Gray is costing them games.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 6:39 PM CST up reply actions
No he's not taking minutes!
They are both playing. I suppose if they had 11 players, Noah and TT would fill those minutes, but it would just be filled by another big guy.
If they had Brad Miller, wouldn’t he be playing those minutes and then some?
there has been games
where Tyrus and Noah have been DNPd or received less than the 10 minutes they would’ve been guaranteed if they were starting
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 6:53 PM CST up reply actions
And they'd still be doing the same shit
that got them benched. Those DNPs are the best thing that happened to them both.
ha!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 23, 2008 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
Gray commits 9 fouls per 48
Why? Because he is too slow to play defense.
What does that cause when he starts? Other teams get into the bonus very early.
So Gray fouls
but Noah allows teams to dunk? I’ll take the fouls.
That's a factually-baseless claim.
Neither have blocked any dunks this year, but Gray has blocked half the rate Noah has. Noah defends centers better, too. C’mon now.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Depends on the center!
It’s not even close who better defends the Yao’s, DHowards, etc. Noah gets manhandled.
I want Noah to be good too. But you can’t be totally blind to his shortcomings.
Didn't say well,
but there is a pretty large difference. Noah will foul out in 15 minutes trying to cover Howard.
Gray had 5 fouls in 12 minutes against Orlando
So he would have fouled out in 14.5 minutes… still worse than your hyperbolic claim against Noah.
An athletic center can just go around Gray, he doesn’t need to worry about manhandling him.
so I take it
that you missed the first 3-5 minutes of each half of the Celtics game? Did you not see Gray get out-performed by Perkins? You must’ve had your eyes closed until Gray went out
http://theSpiderWebSystem.com/ANT2501
http://apspidermarketing.ws/scoreatwill/
our interior D is the worst in the league.
and it’s not close. that’s a product of Gooden, Gray, and Noc seeing heavy minutes at the 4 and 5 spots.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 22, 2008 11:24 PM CST up reply actions
But not Noah?
I agree TT might be the best interior defender, but Noah has been very spacey on D this year. And if you wanted Noah to guard Perkins more, Perkins might have had 40.
Wow. I guess baseless speculation...
…is a valid argument these days.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Noah is our best man to man interior defender
Thomas is our best weak side help defender and if those two things aren’t apparent to you, then I’m done trying to reason with you because you clearly don’t watch the games.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 23, 2008 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Potentially yes
but not in all situations. He also loses him man at times and is still a pretty weak help defender.
it also doesn't help that he starts with Gooden each game
and combined they’re either missing a rotation because they’re physically slow or mentally slow
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 3:38 PM CST up reply actions
announcers?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 3:05 PM CST up reply actions
fine
it’s curious that not a single trade proposed here ever has Aaron Gray mentioned as of any value to the other team.
He’s barely in the NBA. He’s not worth developing, and giving him 10 minutes every single game with Rose is ludicrous.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 3:08 PM CST up reply actions
Have you read the trade rumors?
Tyrus and Noah don’t have any suitors either.
I'm saying made-up trades
nobody brings up the idea of another team wanting Gray. I’m guessing it’s because they know he’s not even trade filler, not that he’s so important to keep.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 3:42 PM CST up reply actions
So because TT and Noah
are trade filler, yet Gray isn’t quite trade filler means Gray shouldn’t play?
Trade value and basketball production don’t always correlate.
I'm saying it's unfortunate
that we can’t open up trade discussions with Euroleague teams.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 3:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
hey
Will Purdue got traded for Rodman!
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith
I'd rather have Gray coming off the bench
I want us to run early. We’re built for that with Rose and Gordon. We have to get transition opportunities and that doesn’t come with Gray. We need Noah starting at center and Gooden at PF.
We can slow things down when Rose and Gordon need their burn by bringing in Gray and Thomas.
I really thought we be at this point already, but it appears Noah really is in poor shape. We can’t start him and only get 5 good minutes out of him. We need 7-8 in the 1st quarter and then another 7-8 in the 2nd quarter. I don’t know if has the conditioning to do this. That’s a big reason why I see Vinny starting Gray.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 22, 2008 3:11 PM CST up reply actions
Funk and Neil? That makes me wrong?
I don’t hate Aaron Gray, he’s a bad player being put in a position where he looks even worse, that’s on the coaching staff for being goons.
And, stop with this Noah/Tyrus aren’t playing that well, either. They aren’t playing well, neither is Gray!!!! I have yet to see Gray use his size consistently where it actually makes an impact. So, again, I ask the question, why does Aaron Gray start? When 3 players are all admittedly not playing that well, but 2 of them are far more integral to the long-term success of this team, why do they still get no burn? He may not be as awful as some say, but he’s definitely not even league average as a center. If anything, it screws with Gray’s mentality that he starts for a team, yet still only plays around 15 minutes a game. That’s just dumb, play him where his strengths are useful.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 22, 2008 3:14 PM CST up reply actions
Wait, you have yet to see Gray use his size consistently?
So there is room for development with Gray?
yes, 6 million dollar man style
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 3:43 PM CST up reply actions
Of course there is
Good teams know how to use their crappy players effectively, the Bulls just start them.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 22, 2008 3:46 PM CST up reply actions
No offense, not personal
but I’d rather hear what Neil Funk has to say about basketball than you.
Neil Funk is clueless
I mean, have you listened to him?
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
seriously
I loved Neil on the radio but how many shots did he call 3pters but the shooter was about a foot inside the 3pt arc!!
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith
Doesn't change the fact I value his opinion
over “Aaron Gray sucks because he’s big and slow”
If you listen to Funk
you’d think Ben Gordon sucks as well, even though he’s our clear-cut 2nd best player.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
that's your interpretation.
If you asked Funk, I’m sure he would tell you Gordon was either the best or 2nd best player.
Well
his idiocy is fairly apparent through his broadcasts. It’s not our fault you can’t hear it.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
I don't like his broadcasting much either
but to pretend like he doesn’t have basketball knowledge doesn’t make sense. He’s called games forever and been apart of the organization for a long time as well. He has access to info far beyond what anyone here does.
don't forget the bad hands
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 3:48 PM CST up reply actions
And I'd love to watch Norm Van Lier wrestle Johnny Red Kerr
Yet, here we are. Doesn’t change my view (and apparently the majority view of BaB) that Aaron Gray is not good, and looks even worse when he starts.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 22, 2008 3:49 PM CST up reply actions
Yet they win with him
and all statistical evidence points to you overblowing how bad he is.
Vinny's overblowing it
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 4:02 PM CST up reply actions
Do you really think they win because he starts?
You think they wouldn’t be winning if, say, Noah was starting in his place?
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
I'm saying he's not hurting
so why focus on it? If he was costing them games I get hit. But he clearly is not. I’m not saying he’s the catalyst to victory. But this idea that starting is only meant for certain people is stupid. The last 8-12 minutes of the game are the only ones that really matter. Everything else can be mixed however you want.
As Matt said, it's not necessarily a huge issue that's costing games
Still, it’s rather stupid to commit time to a guy who’s obviously no better than a 4th big in a rotation. Gray’s starts are more an indictment of VDN not seeing proper priorities when doling out playing time, which are:
1) Play the guys who could work well w/ Rose
2) Play the guys who are young and could be pretty good
3) Play the guys who will help you win
4) Play Aaron Gray
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Conveniently, items 1-3 fit very well together
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
but you fail to see
that both Tyrus and Noah play more than Gray. I could see your point if Gray was playing 38 minutes while TT and Noah are on the bench. But that isn’t happening. Gray is a guy who can play. On most teams he would see minutes, so why is everyone killing his 10 minutes a game for a team desperate for size.
because Tyrus and Noah should be
getting those 10 minutes with Rose building that future chemistry. Gray can have ten minutes, but give them to him when the other scrubs are in.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 22, 2008 5:33 PM CST up reply actions
Rose plays 38mpg
so Gray plays the other 10? Should Gray come in for Rose as a sub too?
by CJ Bulls on Dec 22, 2008 6:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
it's basically creates this situation
Noah and Thomas play so well that Gray doesn’t have to play at all. If Gray starts, this is an impossibility.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 7:05 PM CST up reply actions
But you act like Gray as a starter is a full time thing
Noah has started just as many games. If Gooden is moved, TT will lead them all in starts. If there is one thing you should realize, it is nothing is permanent. Gray started when the other two weren’t performing to expectations. Lately, Gray has been playing worse, so I would expect you won’t see him starting that much longer if he keeps it up.
because they're at the wrong time.
he should be playing against the 2nd unit! this would be beneficial to him as well, since that’s more likely to be a better matchup for him.
but it's not beneficial
to Noah or TT to play against the 2nd unit? They have the most room for growth.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 22, 2008 6:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
why are you killing us for killing his starting?
he shouldn’t start. if it doesn’t matter if he starts, then why have him start?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 5:49 PM CST up reply actions
god damnit I hate myself for getting in this argument
lesson learned.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 5:51 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Because it's so over the top
and irrelevant to wins and losses someone needs to set you straight. With too many people here it’s either love or hate. TT is awesome! Noc suck! I hate Noah! Larry should not be traded! In reality, there is a huge middle ground and as long as that middle ground isn’t being upset (an no playing AG 10mpg isn’t upsetting anything) then why act like it’s a horrible decision
The last time I checked the newspapers and ESPN, I have yet to encounter someone claiming starting Gray is even a remotely bad decision.
Marv Albert and Mike Fratello
were openly mocking the decision to start Aaron Gray during their broadcast of the Bulls Nets game on the YES network. Those guys aren’t new to this stuff, and they laughed at the idea of starting the guy for 6 minutes each half and then sitting him down. The subtext was, if he’s good enough to start he should be getting more minutes OR if he’s not good enough to get more minutes, he shouldn’t start. I don’t get why this is so hard.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 22, 2008 6:51 PM CST up reply actions
Well I didn't hear the broadcast so I don't know.
But the writers covering this team have yet to voice a concern over this. Maybe because it isn’t.
ha!
You use the Bulls beat writers as some sort of standard? That’s your first mistake.
http://theSpiderWebSystem.com/ANT2501
http://apspidermarketing.ws/scoreatwill/
that's because
Gray doesn’t matter. If you asked a national commentator (newspaper OR ESPN!) what he thought about Aaron Gray starting, he’s probably roll his eyes and say ‘well, the Bulls must be in trouble’. It’s a friggin’ joke.
Because they are in trouble, at least in the front court. And starting Aaron Gray does not help them get out of that trouble.
So now you’ve done it. I’ve been sucked in a dozen more times by this annoying irrelevant argument, so I had to put a disclaimer at the top of the blog to ward off any potential Aaron Gray fans.
My new pet goal for this team is not only to get Brad Miller, but to make sure somehow Aaron Gray is included in the deal.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 7:01 PM CST up reply actions
As I've always contended
Gray starting is a matter of Noah and TT struggling. To blame anyone but those two shows you don’t really get it. Gray has played ok, he’s an ok player. When someone else deserves to start, they’ll start. There just aren’t a lot of entitlement minutes with this team. I think that’s what you really want to see. It explains the complaints about Deng and why TT/Noah should be playing even when they are playing well below expectations.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 22, 2008 7:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
so Gray
SHOULD be playing/starting because he has NO expectations?
http://theSpiderWebSystem.com/ANT2501
http://apspidermarketing.ws/scoreatwill/
on most teams
his time would be cut in half. How you fail to see this, I have no clue.
http://theSpiderWebSystem.com/ANT2501
http://apspidermarketing.ws/scoreatwill/
So he'd be getting 6 minutes?
The point is Gray is playing because he does what VDN wants. He is more professional than TT or Noah. When those two play better, many of Gray’s minutes will be taken. Why is this so hard to understand for you?
The last 8-12 minutes
don’t matter if the team is down by 15-20 BECAUSE of who they started.
And he IS hurting them. He may not be costing them games individually, but his performances, or lack thereof definitely hurt.
http://theSpiderWebSystem.com/ANT2501
http://apspidermarketing.ws/scoreatwill/
According to what?
Other than your opinion. No statistic backs that up. PER, APM, team record in games he starts etc. Nothing shows that Gray hurts the team. You just choose to believe that.
Roland rating
And he has a lesser APM than Noah. So him starting is stupid.
Start.
Your.
Best.
Players.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Where is the start your 5 best players rule?
And Noah and Tyrus probably aren’t their 5 best players. If they followed that logic, Rose, BG, Hughes, Deng, Gooden would be starting at this point.
I guess Manu Ginobili sucks too then. Or Popovich should be fired, one or the other.
so just because a team
wins with a bad player in the lineup, that merits that player continuing to go about with no changes being made?
And unless we’re watching a totally different team, this team isn’t exactly consistently winning. So your “yet they win with him” is pretty blah because this team still wins badly. Bad wins don’t count.
http://theSpiderWebSystem.com/ANT2501
http://apspidermarketing.ws/scoreatwill/
How is he hurting the team?
So you think VDN is an idiot for starting him. And Pax is an idiot for letting him start, let alone drafting him. And Sam Smith is an idiot for in all his blogs never once mentioning Gray starting as a problem. The list goes on.
ya know....
Along with Sam Smith, there’s no mention in the original post about Aaron Gray either. Because he doesn’t matter. Nobody thinks he’s an actual answer to anything. You think starting him works as some motivational tactic for Noah/Tyrus (I think that’s your only explanation so far as to why he starts, besides ‘it doesn’t matter’, as if that makes sense), I think it’s just silly and pointless.
Thus why it’s just another thing that’s odd about the Vinny era so far.
Not that Gray doesn’t get a bunch of shit for being slow and bad, to the point of unfairness. But him starting is a joke, so I treat it as such. It’s not even a real argument we’re having, you don’t even think he should start, you’re just whining because you think he’s getting unfair treatment because he’s starting.
He’s not, because it’s not directed at him. Gray’s not even a real NBA player in this context, just a symbol of the Bulls ineptitude (especially in the frontcourt) at this point. So figure any complaints about him are complaints about that. That’s the joke that is starting Aaron Gray, not Gray himself bringing the ball down to get it stripped, or his insane foul rate.
Now you should feel ashamed for not understanding that and leading us down this insane path of arguing over Aaron Gray starting on an NBA team that someone would want to watch.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 23, 2008 12:12 PM CST up reply actions
You continue to go off the deep end.
Gray is an NBA player. He will be in this league for many more years still (provided he stays in shape). He’s a backup worthy of 10-15 minutes. Whether they are the first 10 minutes or 2nd 10 minutes or whatever, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t affect the end result of games and yes, can be a motivational tool for Noah and TT.
It’s funny that you who fought so hard to see BG starting can’t understand starting is a priority for players. And by denying those starting opportunities, VDN might be motivating certain players to follow the ideas the VDN is coaching to.
You’re right I don’t care if Gray starts or not. I certainly wouldn’t be complaining if he wasn’t. Why? Because that idea is pretty irrelevant. It doesn’t affect games or production or development no matter how much you wish that to be so.
That was my point. To talk about something that is a problem for this team, instead of your made up “starters matter” idea.
Gray’s not even a real NBA player in this context, just a symbol
You think he is useful as a symbol. He doesn’t.
shrug
My apologies on glossing over that
Either way, he still is a real NBA player. VDN isn’t throwing out Elton Brown of some D-Leaguer. He’s putting a player out there who is capable of doing the job just as well as Noah/TT currently are.
oh my.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 23, 2008 1:42 PM CST up reply actions
for some reason
im not sure which side to take. lol. both of you ARE saying he is irrelevant. its not making much sense at this point.
Aaron Gray is the answer to the question the Bulls have been asking for years,
who will replace Will Perdue?
by Granny Waiters on Dec 23, 2008 9:57 PM CST up reply actions
Actually, Smith mentioned Gray just the other day
The other story is how the Bulls have to play and what, grudgingly, coach Vinny Del Negro is likely to do more and more this season, employing the guard oriented lineup he did virtually the entire fourth quarter with Rose, Gordon, Larry Hughes, Thabo Sefolosha and Andres Nocioni with Joakim Noah getting a few minutes in between.
It’s, in a sense, a reluctant acceptance of what this team is: One which is driven by Rose’s scoring and has to take advantage of its aggressive potential to open the court and play more a Phoenix Suns style ball.
Though Del Negro continues to protest that’s impossible to do on short notice and continues to start Aaron Gray, the team is likely to be most productive forcing the tempo and scrambling the game because there is no established system of defensive play and few lock down type defenders.
Obviously Sam isn’t just going to come out and say Gray sucks ass and he can’t believe VDN is still playing him, but this is about as close as a beat writer gets to doing that.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Dec 23, 2008 4:12 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
look up on that list... who's that? Oh right, it's Joakim Noah
with a higher APM than Gray… yet, Gray starts over him. That’s the problem.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 22, 2008 5:20 PM CST up reply actions
And look at the minutes list.
Noah plays more minutes! Who cares who starts. By your logic, BG shouldn’t be starting then because his APM isn’t higher than Thabos.
except that BG's APM IS higher than Thabo's.
Noah plays more minutes because he’s better than Gray. To have him not start makes no sense. Gray getting 10 minutes isn’t a problem, those 10 minutes coming with the starting unit IS a problem. Just because you refuse to see it, doesn’t mean it isn’t so.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 22, 2008 5:32 PM CST up reply actions
Here is the problem that is evident to everyone but you
When Gray starts;
Of TT’s 21 mpg, probably 10 are with Rose
Of Noah’s 19 mpg, probably 10 are with Rose
Of Gray’s 15 mpg, probably 15 are with Rose
You just made those figures up?
If you read above, you’ll see the most commonly used lineups:
Of the top 10 most used lineups:
Gray is in #2/9/10
Noah is in #1, 4, 7, 8
Thomas is in #3, 6, 8, 9
All have Rose in them
Those 10 lineups only account for 40% of the total minutes played
Not exactly complete data.
My estimates are based on the fact that Gray gets a guaranteed 5 minutes (likely 7 or so) with Rose at the beginning of each half. That is at a minimum 10 minutes per game that TT and Noah are not on the court with Rose when at least one c(sh)ould have been.
Fine how about this data
Player pairs:
Rose/Gray 234 minutes
Rose/Noah 291 minutes
Rose/TT 331 minutes
There are 7 player on the team who have played more minutes with Rose than Gray.
The data you are giving is irrelevant
It includes minutes from earlier in the season when TT or Noah were starting. The problem is with the last 10-12 games when Gray has been starting. Obviously data from the entire season is going to show what is currently going on.
Why are the games earlier irrelevant?
VDN shuffles the lineup often. So to just pick the last 8 games is irrelevant. Face it, it’s not as bad as you think it is.
yuck
it shouldn’t be nearly that close
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 23, 2008 10:36 PM CST up reply actions
I was expecting that from you
I thought you were done with this Gray business.
Not to mention Gray has been healthy
all season where TT and Noah have had injuries.
That has nothing to do with him starting
He still gets bench type minutes.
Him starting is some sort of weird superstition VDN has
I still say it matters
even if it’s 10 minutes.
Because it’s a guaranteed 10 minutes, and all of which are with Derrick Rose. It’d be nice if some other players had that consistency.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 1:33 PM CST up reply actions
I fail to see what's so hard
With starting Noah and putting Gray in when he’s winded. Gray is a backup, so freaking use him as one. I don’t mind seeing him getting 15-20 minutes a game when it’s spread around 4 quarters. Playing him with the starting (and ideally most talented) unit for 10 minutes, then seeing him for like 3 minutes after that is just idiotic. It screws with any offensive rhythm the Bulls might have, and serves no purpose.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 22, 2008 1:43 PM CST up reply actions
Couldn't it be
that Gray is doing things the coach likes, i.e.; good practices (or maybe just being on time!), knows the plays, moves the ball, sets good screens… And this is his reward? Which is a better message to send, Gray gets 10 min garbage time or 5 min to start each half?
Sounds like something P Jackson would do. Maybe VDN knows more than “we” think?
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
wow...
so we’re rewarding players for having good practices rather than being good in actual GAMES???
http://theSpiderWebSystem.com/ANT2501
http://apspidermarketing.ws/scoreatwill/
by NormVanBeer on Dec 22, 2008 10:01 PM CST up reply actions
agreed...
first, there’s no actual evidence that he’s been better than those guys in practice and I find it highly dubious to draw that conclusion, based on what Gray does in the games, which is best described as “suck.”
by fundamentallysound on Dec 22, 2008 10:03 PM CST up reply actions
To be fair, VDN has acknowledged that Gray has a better understading of what the team
is trying to do than other players. Still, Gray’s understanding isn’t enough to overcome his physical limitations.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
When were TT and Noah good in games.
Their production has been down. That’s why they aren’t playing. This wouldn’t be a topic if TT wasn’t shooting 35% with a ton of jumpers or if Noah was playing good help defense. That’s why Gray is playing. Him starting doesn’t affect anything.
I'm trying to remember... did Phil Jackson ever have a ceremonial 10 mpg starter?
I’m coming up blank. Did he sneak Malik Allen in there when I wasn’t looking?
De gustibus non est disputandum
Those minutes seem to come regardless
And Rose plays close to 40 mpg anyways so it all works out somehow eventually
Um...Deng, Gordon and Gooden.
Have all started more games with Rose than Gray…And only one of those guys is under contract after this season. In fact, the only inconsistency in the starting lineup has been the Center position, which is pretty much our weakest position. Go figure.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
OK
tell me again about Gray’s fundamentals too.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 2:04 PM CST up reply actions
What does that have to do with anything?
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
Gray has
1. height
2. size
3. low salary
4. er, can I get back to you?
by Granny Waiters on Dec 23, 2008 12:05 AM CST up reply actions
and if you couldn't read between those oh-so-subtle lines
I’m basically saying start Noah or Thomas over Gray. Every game.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 2:09 PM CST up reply actions
It is confusing...
When you say that you want them to play young players, considering Aaron Gray is a second year player.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
I don't want to write "who are potentially worth a damn"
every time.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 2:30 PM CST up reply actions
really funny.
what’s worse: going small? or playing Gray?
by chicago-homesick-blues on Dec 22, 2008 3:48 PM CST up reply actions
hm...
well me and Vinny have different ideas of playing small. I think Thomas or Noah are fine centers when playing small. He goes more the lines of Deng and Noc. So if that was the option, I’d take Gray….though I’d make sure he was paired with Thomas/Noah. Seeing Gray/Noc and Gray/Gooden is worse than just Aaron Gray.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 3:51 PM CST up reply actions
Sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Unfortunately.
I’d rather see us play all the young guys and, well, whatever happens…happens.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
well, I assume they'd win
since they’re pretty good, and our ‘veteran’ options are not that good. This has never been like the Pistons sitting Amir Johnson for Rasheed Wallace.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly...we wouldnt get worse
probably get quite a bit better.
I just wish Pax
would mandate a starting lineup of Rose/Gordon/Deng/Tyrus/Noah and see how it works out for at least a 10-game stretch. And by starting lineup, I also mean lots of minutes together…not the stupid Aaron Gray-style gimmick.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
yES!
friendly blogger’s main point in all of this is that although the 5 min at the start of halfs dont statistically have an impact they take away from the opportunities that other players with more potential upside have to get going in a game.
the yES was for your starting combo
its so obvious those are the only relevant players on the whole team. relevant meaning they have even the slightest upside in this league.
seriously everyone else on this roster has their nba fate determined. We know the max potential of every single other player on this roster. With those five… we dont know the max potential.
It's also how they win.
A straight win total isn’t all that indicative for me. I figured, and argued, that barring trading good players for bad (for contract purposes—like Hinrich, for example), this was AT LEAST a .500 team. Taking into account their tough early schedule, the overall record is probably reasonable.
But part of that is that Rose played better than I expected, as did Hughes for a stretch. While I understand that for every player that exceeds expectations, you’ll probably have one that under-performs… that’s usually league-wide. Or hopefully someone like Nocioni or Hinrich that I wouldn’t have much use for going forward. But to have Deng, Thomas, Noah, and (in my eyes, the coach) underperforming means, I think the team as a whole is underperforming.
(I understand that probably makes no sense. I’m too confused to even try to word it better.)
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Vinny, Boylan and even Skiles do about the same..
All chose to try to win that game, that day, than develop the young projects. What I’ve seen in Deng is an overrated player. Maybe we all need to realize that the Bulls are better off with a player that can make his own shot, take a player off the dribble and Deng can’t do it. Noc is much better. Deng is pretty weak, he needs a guard that gives him the ball when he is wide open and he needs a team that plays weak defense. When defended by an average defender, he disappears. He plays small, he is like a 6’5" forward and needs a wide open lane to get to the hoop. In the 4th quarter, teams get more physical, and Deng disappears. So if you were a coach, you can play Deng, lose or give yourself a shot and sit his ass down when it counts. This team has a lot of projects, so the coach needs to be able to set aside his goal to win and play Noah, TT and Deng or he can go down with the players that can get him maybe 40 games in the season and at least a first round whipping in the playoffs. What I think he should say, after a loss, “we are developing players” and expect a lottery pick.
Although I tend to agree with a lot of what you said...
…I have to pin about 90% of the lack of development of the players (not just Deng, but Gordon, Hinrich, Thomas, etc…) on the Skiles staff. I talk all the time about what Deng should be…but maybe Deng shouldn’t be the target of my vitriol. His coaches should. We peaked a few years back (how strange is that to say about a group of young guys) because Skiles got the most out of them…but he failed MISERABLY when it came to developing our guys. Guys like Gordon, Thomas and Deng should all be much further along than they are. They don’t lack work ethic, but they lacked a coach who was capable of bringing them along. I think Deng should have a more refined back to the basket game at this point in his career, but when Skiles was demanding that his team play that drive and kick game then how was Deng supposed to develop one? Same for Thomas. The answer is that he couldn’t develop one because he had virtually no opportunity to do it in the games. Now I understand Skiles being more concerned about winning than developing players because although player development sounds nice, it usually means losing and we all know that in pro sports losing means getting fired, plain and simple. A coach capable of developing players is what I’d hoped we would get when Boylan was fired.
It’s too early to tell just exactly who Vinny is as a coach (and apparently he’s been great for Derrick Rose which is a good thing), but it seems he’s quickly gotten to the crossroad between player development and winning. In this aspect though it seems we may be lucky we didn’t get D’antoni because he wasn’t great at developing players either. Just look at the Phoenix bench the last couple years. He hardly ever used them because he didn’t develop them. Whatever though. Let’s give it some time and see how it turns out. If our guys come along, we can be very dangerous. Obviously not Boston or Cleveland dangerous at this point, but we can compete at a high level on a nightly basis (maybe as good as 4th in the East) and Chicago can look like an attractive team with a legitimate chance to win to prospective free agents in 2009 and 2010.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Dec 22, 2008 12:09 PM CST up reply actions
Lucky no to D'Antoni?
Didn’t develop players? HUH???
Who was Boris Diaw before D’Antoni? Barbosa? Joe Johnson seemed to do pretty well after BOS traded him to PHX. Amare became a perenial all-star without a back to the basket game. Nash’s 2 MVPs!
Or closer to home, who was Chris Duhon?
Who was being wasted on the PHX bench? Marcus Banks? Or Sean Marks?
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
Who was Boris Diaw WITH D'antoni????
Except for that one season he had he’s been regular as hell. He’s actually averaging about 15 or so out in Charlotte now though. Joe Johnson averaged about 17 in Phoenix. Nothing special. He became an All-Star in Atlanta. Amare would have became an all-star ANYWHERE and guess what…he’s gonna get better!! Steve Nash was already pretty damn good when he got to Phoenix. Marion didn’t really develop either. He was just a runner/jumper and he now he looks mighty ordinary on that Miami team.
Chris Duhon is the beneficiary of a more wide open game. He was always decent, but what he’s doing now doesn’t mean he’s any better than he was before. Different style of play. Look at Quentin Richardson in Phoenix…then look at him in New York. That’s my dude but he was nowhere near as effective in New York.
Tyson Chandler developed. He found what he was good at and at this point no matter what team he plays on he’ll probably give you a double double and some great defense. Hell, even Jamal Crawford developed….turned into an offensive machine. None of it happened in a Bulls uniform though.
I guess a better thing to say was that he didn’t use his bench a lot. The strength of this Bulls team (if we can say that) is our depth. The fact that we don’t lose much when we go to our bench when guys are playing well (I don’t know if that’s good or bad though because ideally you want your starters far better than your second unit) and i’m not sure D’antoni would have done that. New York has been short handed so he’s had to play 7 guys but we’ll see if he plays any more than that sometime soon here when they get healthy.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Dec 22, 2008 2:39 PM CST up reply actions
You tell me
nothing I don’t already know.
I truly don’t understand you.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
stopped at... "Noc is much better"
Hopefully, I won’t get lambasted.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
not a problem.. it is a sad statement that Noc is better
ok, just better. Noc can create, can play w/out the ball and drive into a defended area better. That only tells how bad Deng is.
there is a home for you
http://www.blogabull.com/2008/12/14/691950/busting-the-luol-deng-myth
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 1:59 PM CST up reply actions
Good post...
But I do feel like winning is still important.
I hated that people here were rooting for them to lose last year. I understand that it ended up netting us Rose, but I can’t boo a team in the hopes that we will buck the odds again. That’s just a lame way to watch basketball.
That being said, Deng is a good player and he (more than anyone at his position) gives us the best chance to win nightly.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 22, 2008 11:44 AM CST reply actions
that's more my point
Vinny wants to win (great) but thinks that gimmickry is the only way, not playing his best players (both the best now and who’ll be the best later)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 11:48 AM CST up reply actions
I think you are over-reacting to one game
Deng wasn’t playing well, Noc and Thabo were. Deng more than gets the benefit of the doubt for his slow start, so one game not finishing isn’t wrong, especially in a win.
The organizational plan is crowded by too many players on the roster. The only thing clear is that after Rose, Gordon, Deng, the next best player is a mystery. At this point, it could be Thabo! So VDN messes with the lineups until they figure out what they have. Playing the hot hand seems like a winning strategy.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 22, 2008 12:34 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
For the first time CJ...
…you and I agree on something. Rose, Gordon, Deng then ????. In all honestly it’s probably Gooden or Hughes at this point, but neither figures to be here in a year or two so they don’t count.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Dec 22, 2008 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
Good post.
I feel bad for Vinny, because Pax has dealt him a confusing, shitty hand. I get pissed at his ‘match-ups’ philosophy, but I won’t fully judge him until he has a manageable roster. The one he has now is a jumbled disaster of spare parts, many of which (somehow) deserve to be playing. At least he plays Rose and Gordon a ton. That shows that he at least knows who his best guards are…and as simple as that may seem, it’s not exactly something that would be expected to happen in this bumbling organization.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Rose and Gordon...
…potentially the best backcourt in the NBA in the years to come. To have only played 25 or so games together they are remarkably effective. Both must get better defensively (Rose has the tools to be a great defender but he must get after it) in order for that vision to become a reality though. They can be the new age Isiah (big time clutch performer was as tough as they come on the court and as solid a lead guard as there has EVER been) and Dumars (cold blooded shooter from deep with a calm demeanor and killer instinct). Again though, BOTH must get much better defensively. But I like how they look so far.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Dec 22, 2008 12:48 PM CST up reply actions
Hold up
I will agree that Gordon and Rose are playing well together but comparing them to two hall of famers( I think Dumars got in ) is a joke. As you said with Ben out there they will never be as good defensivly as Joe and Issiah were. Where does the Bulls backcourt rank in the east?
I’d say below Boston, Atlanta cause Joe Johnson, Miami cause Wade is 2nd in MVP, and tied with NJ and Detroit.
I never though I'd be saying this, but...
…thanks Tyger for pointing out the “potentially”…LOL. No way would I insinuate that they are the best right now.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Dec 22, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
well if it's clear Deng is one of the best players on the roster
then why isn’t he in for the 4th? That’s the kind of ‘coaching’ I enjoy, just playing the best guys.
And like I said in my post, this is the second game it’s happened. The first was that overtime loss at home to the Sixers.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 12:42 PM CST up reply actions
With deng...
I feel if someone is not getting it done that game and someone else is (thabo in this case) why not play the player that is getting it done. While i agree that there is no way we should start gray i feel that the way vinny is coaching i can not complain because when a player is getting it done he is in. That is why we are seeing more min from tyrus becasue he has been playing well but i dont feel we should play him 30 min in a game were he is playing like complete shit. Now i am not saying he should not play when he is playing bad, but he should only play limited min those games.
by bullzfan148 on Dec 22, 2008 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
this isn't 8th grade
where everyone gets a chance.
If Deng’s not playing well, I guess you lose. That decision was made by Reinsdorf over the offseason. And I don’t fully buy into the idea that just because someone’s having a bad stint means he’s guaranteed to have another one. Rest Deng, put him back in. Win or lose with your guys, especially in the case of Deng where he’s the clear option at that position.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
there are 12 guys on the team
i’m sure the 7 guys on the bench would love your “it doesn’t matter how bad you play” philosophy. Entitlement minutes create dissension on a team. If Deng is playing well, he plays the 4th. If he is playing mediocre he plays the 4th. The only time Deng doesn’t play in the 4th is when the guy behind him is obviously playing better. I don’t see how you can fault VDN for that.
Deng isn’t Jordan or Pippen. He is a solid starter. He can see the bench like anyone else.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 22, 2008 6:59 PM CST up reply actions
yes!
play people who you have signed! even if they are playing badly! If deng is playing badly we should lose. We shouldn’t lose because he is playing badly AND he is replaced by noc or thabo or whatever.
Deng really wasnt playing that poorly either
He wasnt shooting that well, but hes been looking better recently.
So the 2 games you are citing
out of 27 total are the 76er game where they came back after trailing in the 4th to force overtime and the latest Jazz game where they also won the game based on their 4th quarter play? I don’t see what there is to be upset about, VDN appears to have made the correct decison.
yes.
it should happen zero games. And I’m not reacting to just the one thing, just shoveling it on the VDN worry-pile.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 1:03 PM CST up reply actions
Well you need to really work on your priorities for the worry pile.
Oh no, VDN subbed out a player and the team played well without him!
piles have priorities?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 2:00 PM CST up reply actions
I think you should file it under the
“irrational complaint” file.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 22, 2008 2:56 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Deng is regressing
I don’t buy the excuse that Deng hasn’t figured out how to play with Rose yet. Deng’s only ability is to catch and shoot from 17-19ft and to come off curls through the lane and finish WIDE OPEN layups at the rim. He still is horrible off the dribble, the post moves that Skiles wanted to try last year are dead, and his defense is just so so because of his lack of athleticism. I want Vinny to give Thabo 20-25 mins at the 3 for a couple weeks because he is a better defender and better in the open court game the Bulls want to play.
if Thabo handles the ball as much as Deng
that won’t be good for Deng.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 22, 2008 1:04 PM CST up reply actions
if that's true
they have huge problems. So I’d rather not cross that bridge yet.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 1:04 PM CST up reply actions
Deng...
Is not as good as we all thought he was. I was really happy that he got money but it should have gone to gordon because gordon has consistently produced at what he is good for. Deng had that one year and the playoffs where he played sweet. He did not even do well against the pistons all he really did was tear up a heat team that was passed its prime.
there's a thread for this (where I no longer venture)
http://www.blogabull.com/2008/12/14/691950/busting-the-luol-deng-myth
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 1:08 PM CST up reply actions
I'd
rather visit an insane asylum.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
wow... someone did their homework
to show what my 10 year old realized while watching a couple of games with me. I just hope that someone like Larry Brown would trade a real player like Wallace for our “man from Sudan”. Larry likes players that are good guys and listen to him. Deng is very good at this. I just hope he does not go to blogabull to know what fans think of him.
Vinny's Objective
I think Vinny’s objective is to win games until the trades come down and shake things up. If that means go small for 9 mins of the 4th quater every game so be it. If that means not playing Noah and Tyrus because they haven’t read the scouting reports, ok. If it means sitting Deng, for a more productive Thabo, fine. Since the roster is going to change drastically in 18monthes then who cares about guys getting consistent minutes. Derrick is going to play 38-42 and then I’m fine letting Vinny do what he wants.
Why play Noc over Deng then if Noc is hopefully more likely to be gone
unless…..puke…no I cant say it.
It's not like Deng is complaining about being benched for entire 4th quarters
Maybe VinnyPax sat him down to “explain some things”, ie “we just signed you to the biggest contract in Bulls history if you forget about that corpse guy and have you see the other contracts on the team. We need to help get them out of here.”
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 22, 2008 1:46 PM CST up reply actions
haha
i’ve wondered if the large part of the reason that noc and hughes are getting so much playing time – is that management/coach just want to pump up their stock to make a trade. And “fool” a team into taking these players.
That makes ‘their playing so much’ sit with me much better.
Doesn’t explain why gray gets so much pt. he will never be a good trade asset.
this implies communication between the GM and coach
I’m doubting it
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 2:14 PM CST up reply actions
Hughes example?
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 22, 2008 2:35 PM CST up reply actions
ah, true.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 2:38 PM CST up reply actions
Seems pretty legit
considering the fact that Hughes has kept his mouth shut in recent days.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
I think the point is
the decision shouldnt be about playing Thabo over Deng, its about playing Noc at the 5 where i guess he is better at guarding 5s then Deng? Since Thabo was playing so well, why not Noah, Deng, Thabo, BG, Rose, instead of Noc, Thabo, Larry, BG, rose or wtf it was?
by reprisal on Dec 22, 2008 1:32 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Next 10 days
Noc is gonna be the 4 or play the 4th quater PF mins now that Goodens out a 7-10. I could see a lineup in cruch time like Rose Gordon Thabo Ty Noc. But Aaron and Noah won’t play in the 4th because they can’t guard.
Very likely
I hope Thomas returns tomorrow for the Piston game. After that it’s the Heat and Hawks. How much bigger is Horford and Pachulia compared to Nocioni?
I don’t want to see any more of it, but small ball just won’t go away.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 22, 2008 1:49 PM CST up reply actions
Thabo
was on Okur most of the 4th, I thought.
Right on, Okur isn’t a post player. So they posted him against the Bulls’ small lineup. Okur was 7 for 20, I believe, and the Jazz went outside their normal system for that performance. So this is bad coaching?
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Dec 22, 2008 1:46 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Agree - I thought the Bulls lineup confused Utah and made Utah play to their weakness.
Thabo on Okur took the 3 ball away from him. I think Nocioni likes playing the 5 because he seems to like banging people. This is a challenging lineup to coach because of its imbalance. I get pissed at VDN but by-in-large he has not lost the players, Rose is playing a ton and our record is 13-14. It could be worse.
"it could be worse"
the new “love it live!”?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 2:05 PM CST up reply actions
my personal favorite
“everything can change in the blink of an eye”
or something like that
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith
I could swear that
I saw Larry Hughes take a charge on Matt Harpring that night!
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
When we are discussing who guards 5's better....
…Nocioni or Deng, then we’ve got problems. Truth is NEITHER of them should be subjected to that. Even when we go small. We gotta find a bigger player who is capable of doing this for us…or is effective enough for us not to have to go small so often. I don’t know about you guys, but I don’t wanna be Golden St. I wanna win and although we may eke some out here and there playing like that, I want legitimate players on the court. I want a CENTER guarding the other teams CENTER. And if the other teams center is a guy like Okur who drifts to the perimeter often, then I want OUR center to punish him on the other end.
But maybe all this is just wishful thinking seeing as though to this point Paxson has been averse lately to acquiring players over 6’9" capable of providing offense consistently (or defense for that matter).
by lexdiamonds0730 on Dec 22, 2008 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
i could see tyrus playing the 5
in small ball. especially against a guy like okur, who is a really good matchup for him.
I would LOVE that!!
But we need Tyrus to step his game up and keep it there. Having him in there at the 5 while playing small ball is probably what Vinny envisioned. It’ll be nice to see on a consistent basis if we’re gonna have to keep going small.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Dec 22, 2008 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
Not really.
Playing a perimeter oriented Center pulls Tyrus out of the lane where he is the most effective defensively…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
Thomas can do it.
Not regularly, but better than Nocioni. Too bad he wasn’t available.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I'm pretty sure he
actually was playing some at the 5 early in the season, which was interesting. I don’t love it, but yeah, it’s far better than Chapu moonlighting there. That’s just fugly, even when his flops are successful.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
If someone were to manage completely on contracts and egos to not rock the boat.
it’s go something like this:
1. You have to play Gordon because he’s playing for a contract. So is Gooden. Irrespective of whether they deserve it (I’m not saying they’re undeserving… just saying it’s irrelevant), they’re made guys who need to be out earning.
2. You have to play Hughes and Nocioni enough minutes to justify their contracts, at least enough to potentially trade them. They’re made men.
3. Deng is a made guy, but he just started his big deal and is effectively on vacation. You play him, but if you have an immediate need you need to get settled first (like trading Hughes and Nocioni), you can shave a few of his minutes. Sure he’ll look bad, but so what, you’ve got him for five more years.
4. Thabo is under contract for next year and he’s not made. He’s not gonna bitch, he’s from Switzerland forchrissakes. You know he might be pretty good, but the short-term imperative is to trade Hughes and Noc. So he can sit for a while.
5. Tyrus, Noah are the guys you’re trying to coach something out of, but who you think are a couple of nitwits. They can bitch, but they aren’t really that important, so they can’t bitch that much, and they need to be out on the court proving it. Your tool to control them is playing the big lummox.
This seems to perfectly fit the strategy being employed by the Bulls. Or the Sopranos.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Dec 22, 2008 1:53 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
Sopranos
Great analogy. Can we get Uncle Jun as GM?
by El Toro de Goro on Dec 22, 2008 2:00 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know if you have to play Gordon or Gooden.
Because even though you think they are made guys, they may not be willing to stick around the organization next season. They could be whacked (traded) or flip to the enemy (sign with another team)…so, their playing time should be on an as needed basis.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
they pretty much need them a lot, no?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 2:39 PM CST up reply actions
Need?
I thought you wanted the young guys to get minutes over the “veterans”…the last thing the Bulls need is more of Drew Gooden’s terrible defense and 20 foot jumpers…
On a related note, Ben Gordon is scoring a lot.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
can't help but smile at any continued doubting of Gordon by now.
But on to the bigs, since perhaps you’re open to rational thought on that front: They’re not going to play Noah and Tyrus 48 each. Gooden can play. Don’t play Noc, don’t play Gray. They stink. Solved that riddle for ya.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 2:49 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Heh, on my board theses days, you'd smile a lot.
Our two most consistent Bulls board guys are like the eternal yin and yang struggling over Gordon. One of them, whom you might know, will find a thousand reasons he’s at the root of every loss, and the other one, whom you also might know, is sure to fine a thousand excuses to match the thousand reasons.
It’s truly the debate that never dies (despite being stabbed, shot, clubbed, drugged, drowned, disemboweled, and electrocuted). It’s sort of fascinating, in a pulling out your pubes one by one sort of way.
(Guys, if you’re reading, I’m kidding… mostly)
De gustibus non est disputandum
Lol, I see Bullshooter appears to be a prominent poster over there.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
hmm, I'll have to lurk that out
did you take in JoeJoe too? ;)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 3:39 PM CST up reply actions
I remember when I first started posting here
and Bullshooter thought I was JoeJoe. Even though I have no idea who JoeJoe is…and probably don’t want to know.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
alright done lurking
bullshooter already pissed me off
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 3:47 PM CST up reply actions
I stopped lurking after I read that "Rose is selfish" thread
Blech.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
OK, I just looked and saw that dude
who’s username I have no idea how to type out, is claiming Rose is playing selfish ball….
WHAT?!?!
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
I assume that's the dabullz.com guy
and he’s basically poking fun at the idea that if Gordon said similar things, he’d be labeled selfish.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 3:41 PM CST up reply actions
Seems to me that he's actually pissed about what Rose said, which is stupid.
I don’t want this out of Derrick Rose. I want him to have a Chris Paul or Steve Nash attitude, not this.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
heh, well that is stupid
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2008 3:43 PM CST up reply actions
i noticed that comment too
which is pretty much dumb. paul and nash are both capable of scoring big when need be and do whatever they can to help their team win.
also
Gray is like 20 months younger than Gordon
I’m just not going to talk about Aaron Gray, ever again. I’ll forget he’s on the team.
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