Trade proposal - Noce to Raps
After hearing Pax's comments about him 'actively' looking at trade proposals, I started thinking about what teams right now would be really willing to deal. It's got to be either a crap team looking to shed crappy contracts (Like Sac insisting Kenny Thomas go with BMiller) or a big time underachieving squad that needs a shakeup. Under that category it's undeniable that the Raps are at the top of the heap.
The knock on the Raps so far has been their un-inspired wing play, lack of 'toughness' and underachievment of their #1 pick from a few years ago, Bargnani. Seems like the door is open for Pax to help Colangelo remedy those issues.
Here's my proposal: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2456~3028~3030~2987~2010&teams=28~28~28~4~4&te=&cash
That's Noce + Thabo + Simmons for Bargnani + Kapono
For the Bulls, the main incentive is to unload Noce's contract. Getting back Kapono, who's contract runs thru 2010 (he has player option for 6.6m that year) isn't ideal but he is a dead-eye shooter who can now hit 46% of the threes that Noce now takes and hits at at 37% clip. Plus I really don't think his d is that big of a downgrade from Noce. Yes, Noce still flops his way to some offensive foul calls and will valiantly try to guard 4's, but I can live without that if it means 5 less years of the overpriced and aging Argentine. Plus that means VDN is forced to give TT more time in the 4th quarters. And Bargnani - all I can say is he only has this year guaranteed, so if he plays well in pick and pops with DRose, keep him for one more year. If not, let him loose. Saves us dollars to re-sign Gordon in the summer or go after someone else.
For the Raps, they get supreme Intensity! from a wing position, a good, young athletic guard in Thabo that can spell the shell-that-was-Anthony Parker, and some inside help from Simmons, who can steal a few minutes for Bosh/O'neal, who don't have ANY inside help at all. I really think they're fed up enough to take a gamble on Noce bringing a fire to the team that re-ignites them. Plus, Colangelo LOVES the euro ballers, so to get a two for one swap might make him drool.
I'd love to see this happen as the first of maybe two deals Pax makes before the deadline - the second of which would shed either of Hughes/Gooden/Hinrich for a more useful big man (ala BMiller or Kaman) or give us big time salary relief for next year and 2010.
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42 comments
Comments
Love the idea, Kig,
and in totally agreement that Toronto would be one of the few places where Nocioni could be dealt. I don’t think they’re willing to give up on Bargnani so soon or for so little in return, however. A more direct deal might be Nocioni for Kapono and Joey Graham, whose contract expires (2.5 million) expires this year. That would preserve our 2010 dreams and gives us some extra cash for B.G.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Dec 18, 2008 10:42 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
exactly...
That was my first thought… and I would gladly do Nocioni for kapono and Graham.
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
by kidronmusic on Dec 18, 2008 5:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think the Raps give up on Bargnani
I do like the general idea. It really makes out the Raps to be saps (sorry), but they do need rebounding and toughness (especially from the wing), and if they want to pay ~$7m for the next 4 years (and get themselves into the luxury tax this year), that’d be awesome.
Maybe if they didn’t have to give up Bargnani and instead included Graham+Ukic.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 18, 2008 10:50 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I tend to agree
The Raps value Bargnani more highly than anyone else does, which is why I don’t seem him being dealt in the near future.
That said, I iike Kapono in our offense, and Bargnani has some upside. The Raps might do it if we throw in a first-rounder.
by RM on Dec 19, 2008 1:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bargnani is to the Raptors
What Tyrus is to the Bulls.
I feel like the Bulls have been rebuilding for like 10 years......... oh wait they have!
by ImmanuelKant on Dec 18, 2008 10:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
ture
but if they really want to be competitve this year and next, which they have to do in order to have a shot at re-signing Bosh in 2010, they need to make a move. The Bulls don’t need to make a move on TT because we’re not supposed to be competitive this year. I think that’s where the difference is, and it might push Colangelo over the edge enough to make this deal.
by kig on Dec 18, 2008 11:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well I'd take it in another direction then if I were them
Bargnani should get them someone better than one of the worst contracts in the league.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 18, 2008 11:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
10pts and 4rbs at 40% shooting in 27mins/game
plus a universal ‘soft’ label is not going to fetch you much, even if he was a #1 pick.
In regards to the worst contract that is Noce, it’s all about perception, both of the player and the needs of the team. What other wings out there are they going to be able to get for just Kapono and Bargnani? No way Larry Brown takes back two softies for Gerald Wallace. Maybe Maggette, but his penchant for one-on-one play probably doesn’t sit well with Colangelo. I really can’t find anyone else that fits the mold.
by kig on Dec 18, 2008 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And potentially, he could help us.
Bargs does all the things that make Andres fit Rose (run floor well for a four and hit threes), and he does them better. He does the thing that make Andres stink (get lost on defense), but he does it less. He’s also cheaper.
So I’m not sure why the raps trade him.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Dec 18, 2008 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The #1 pick thing worked for Kwame in a few deals...
and the big euro thing worked for Darko in a few deals…
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
by kidronmusic on Dec 18, 2008 5:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't speak for Kwame,
but Darko was considered a significantly better prospect than Bargnani. Darko just happened to enter the draft the same year as Lebron, where Bargnani entered the same as Tyrus Thomas.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 19, 2008 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Darko had the misfortune that the three players drafted after him
will be consistent All-Stars throughout their careers.
With hindsight, the choice between Wade, Anthony and Bosh would not be an easy one.
by Granny Waiters on Dec 19, 2008 5:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bosh...
Big men are harder to find, that excuse blows if the talent isn’t close, but to me, Bosh and Wade are on the same level.
And Wade hasn’t won much without a big man… then again, Bosh hasn’t won much either, but I blame Toronto management for that one.
I definitely have Melo third on that list though…
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
by kidronmusic on Dec 20, 2008 12:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree on your order if I was trying to get one of these players for the Bulls,
but if a team had a decent 4 and big hole at the 2 or 3, I doubt that a GM would be receiving much heat for taking Wade or Melo over Bosh.
by Granny Waiters on Dec 20, 2008 7:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
of course.
I was ranking the players as if it was an expansion draft and this was the first player taken… so, all things equal.
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
by kidronmusic on Dec 20, 2008 2:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Stop it...
“one of the worst contracts in the league.”
The more you say that publicly, the more other GM’s will believe it!
Or am I mislead into thinking GM’s read blogs? :)
I will say this though, fans read blogs.
And while it is not the ultimate decision maker, GM’s hear what fans say!
So just stop it already! :)
Besides, Noc’s contract decreases the next 3 years. It is NOT one of the worst contracts in the league (unless you are only judging his performance from last year and some this year). Prior to that, Noc was excellent, and can return to that form on the right team.
by StephenAA on Dec 18, 2008 11:30 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I really think it is one of the worst
usually with the bad contracts it’s someone really overpaid but they can play (like Nene or Kenyon Martin) or someone who can’t play at all but doesn’t have a long-term deal (like Brian Cardinal).
Nocioni’s contract does indeed decline, but it’s still $6.65m in 2011/12. At this rate, if Nocioni was a free agent in that year, he would get less than half of that.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 18, 2008 11:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
First of all...
…Noc has never been “excellent”. Noc is and has always been a role player, a glue guy, a 7th or 8th man, etc. He does have one of the worst contracts (no fault of his own) because Paxson’s (or JR’s) inability to think like a real GM. There is no way a person of his skill set should get anything over the MLE.
Just like I said below, Noc’s contract, at the MOST, should’ve matched Kapono’s (dollar wise). And to give him a 5 year extension (or whatever it was) was just plain dumb.
This is the first season in about 2 years when Noc is “healthy”…but he’s playing like crap. What’s the excuse?
http://apspidermarketing.ws/spiderweb/
http://apspidermarketing.ws/scoreatwill/
by NormVanBeer on Dec 18, 2008 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To Norm and Matt: A real GM?
Noc has been “excellent” regarding his role.
Of course he’s not “excellent” relevant to Kobe. Sheesh.
“And to give him a 5 year extension (or whatever it was) was just plain dumb.”
Oh really?
Let’s look at this closer:
If Pax can trade Noc and get back not just salary relief (although that alone would be good enough to prove Pax knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he signed Noc to 5 years – he was giving himself options!) but assets in return, how then will you think?
Put it another way:
If you believed that your player’s 5-year contract could be pawned off for expiring contracts at any time (because you had PROOF at the time that he was in demand – e.g. Memphis), isn’t that a good contract while still leaving you the option that you may want to keep that player for 5 years (and 6-7 million for a player coming off the bench on a championship team is not that much more than the MLE)! Time will tell of course if Pax was right and you and Matt were wrong, and that time may be coming soon…
This reasoning would apply to any long-term contract out there. If a team can at any time get rid of that long-term contract for expiring contracts alone (while not losing any other assets), then that long-term contract was not a “bad” contract. Please keep in mind, I am not evaluating the player here, just the contract. The GM’s evaluation of his players and direction for the team is a whole different issue.
Therefore Norm:
Please enlighten us how a “real” GM thinks…
I have been reading this blog for awhile, although only started posting recently.
Matt and I think a lot a like, except for a thousand things.
My next goal is to enlighten Matt on BG!
by StephenAA on Dec 18, 2008 12:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's wait until he's traded...
I’ll believe it when I see it.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 18, 2008 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
not a bad point stephenaa,
thats pretty sound logic. however I would just add that while it is not a “bad contract” as long as it can be pawned off, as you state, it would still be a better contract if it were smaller: it could still be pawned off, yet would be more feasibly held onto as well.
Asked what kind of player he expects to be in the next five years, he said: "Not a star, but like, a superstar. Something around, like, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, something like that."
by BigBenign on Dec 19, 2008 1:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think this argument works...
for Kirk’s contract, cause he should always be a solid distributor and decent Point Guards always have value…
But aging back up small forwards on long contracts for more than the midlevel exception aren’t the kind of players most GM’s clamor for. Pax unloaded Wallace, but had to take back Hughes… if he can trade Noc for an expiring deal then I will be impressed, and pleased. But I will refuse to believe that it was some plan to have a bad contract to trade.
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
by kidronmusic on Dec 19, 2008 3:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think the Raps management have had issues with Bargnani's 'professionalism'
they don’t seem to be at the ‘fed up’ level that the Bulls seem to be with Tyrus.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 18, 2008 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How about...
they have both underachieved then? In different ways.
I feel like the Bulls have been rebuilding for like 10 years......... oh wait they have!
by ImmanuelKant on Dec 18, 2008 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I like the idea
though it saddens me to see Kapono’s salary and then look at Noc’s. Anyone in their right mind knows that Noc should be making the same thing as Kapono.
http://apspidermarketing.ws/spiderweb/
http://apspidermarketing.ws/scoreatwill/
by NormVanBeer on Dec 18, 2008 10:56 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
don't get me started on Matt Bonner again.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 18, 2008 11:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would LOVE this trade
We get more height at least and an untapped potential that still lingers from the bust of a #1 Bargnani, who knows though…..he might be ok at some point.
If it doesn’t work, we have $10M to use for the 2010 class….not bad.
I hate the Nocioni ire, even if it’s been more than justified by his play this year. He was one of the few last year who came to bat every game, and was very good during our Skiles heydey….plus he’s a bit better than folks give him credit for….presuming he can get some sort of consistency.
Kapono rides the pine and is even more a 3 pt specialist with us.
by majoyenrac on Dec 18, 2008 11:04 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
The two option years for 1st round picks...
…have to be picked up before the start of the season before the option year, i think. We had that discussion about Thabo this year. So, I assume Barnani’s option for 2009/2010 was already picked up.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 18, 2008 11:26 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Dont see any good (realistic) options for the Bulls
If a straight salary dump was wanted, Darko for Noce would work, but unless Memphis still loves him I doubt you would see it.
ON PURE POTENTIAL & HYPE ONLY AND ON PAPER, Tyrus and Darko could play off eachothers game.
by Jesse07 on Dec 18, 2008 2:07 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
what about the Noce block last night!
I know its been discussed… but it was at least worth 1 million for the entertainment value alone!
man up!
by exult463 on Dec 18, 2008 4:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
No way Colangelo trades Kapono and Bargnani— his Italian-American Federation membership would be revoked. I think they’d stop serving him at the Olive Garden, too.
by Stay Chisel on Dec 19, 2008 12:29 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Maybe Colangelo will panic about re-signing Bosh
and trade him to the Bulls. (Not holding my breath)
by Granny Waiters on Dec 19, 2008 6:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kapono is like
JJ Redick… except he can hit the three.
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
by kidronmusic on Dec 20, 2008 12:52 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Kapono is an arrogant jerk?
Although it must be harder for JJ to taunt, now that he mostly rides the pine.
by Granny Waiters on Dec 20, 2008 7:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a Tarheel fan
and I still never thought he was that arrogant.
When your 19 or 20 and your shattering records, and your the most hated player in college basketball… it’s pretty easy to adopt a “fuck the world, I know I’m good” attitude.
I would go so far as to say that attitude is healthy.
And yes, I think he was hated before he developed that attitude.
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
by kidronmusic on Dec 20, 2008 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why not just trade for Bosh
Trade Noc, Deng, Gooden, Ben, Hughes(or atleast three of these players) and trade the other two to another team for another complimenting piece.
by chi on Dec 20, 2008 12:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
because...
Noc is horribly overpaid, Deng is nowhere near as good as Bosh, Gooden is a rental, Ben has to approve any trade, and Hughes sucks…
And Bosh is a super-duper-star. Would you make that trade? I wouldn’t trade Bosh for all 5 of those players.
The most attractive thing about those 5 players is that Ben, Gooden, and Hughes all expire before 2010, but so does Bosh, an he’s better than all three combined.
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
by kidronmusic on Dec 22, 2008 2:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

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