Dec. 15th was Happy 'summer free agents can now be traded' day!
I have little to say about the re-re-re-re-re-emergence of Tyrus Thomas Saturday night. I was at the game, it was awesome, I have no faith that it'll happen on any consistent basis. Not because he's not consistent, but because he won't get guaranteed (as in, play even if you're having a bad game) playing time. Tyrus is productive when he plays, it's stupid coaching and general managing he doesn't, and I'm pretty tired of saying it. I guess the new wrinkle is that somehow Vinny 'called out' Tyrus (and Noah) and this is them 'responding'. OK. I was trying to peg Vinny early in relation to Skiles with the affinity for small-ball and general old and slow badness. But I really think his answers of 'matchups' after every game are not some facade, his strategy is truly just throwing out combination based on what he thinks are good matchups for that particular opponent, with little regard of his own roster. Tyrus Thomas is on the same level as Aaron Gray. So, based on that, knowing that it's impossible for Tyrus (or anyone) to have a great stint every single time he's on the court, I'm preparing myself for a continuation of his sporadic deployment pattern.
(I guess that was more than 'a little' to say)
What I can instead focus my hope on...is a trade.
In October, commenter Sports2 laid out the litany of obstacles Paxson faces (a lot of his own doing) when considering trades, especially financially: The Bulls are up against the tax this season, need to free up '09 payroll under the luxury tax if they want to re-sign Ben Gordon this offseason, and need to get rid of a couple long-term contracts (namely Hinrich and Nocioni) if they want to be players in the next offseason after that, 2010.
A few trends have emerged in the early season that I think changes some perspectives from the time that was written:
- Ben Gordon has played outstanding
- Larry Hughes has played way above his head
- Nocioni is one of the worst players with regular minutes in the entire league
- Kirk Hinrich is hurt and likely won't establish some new level of value before the trade deadline.
Ben Gordon being great is technically a good problem to have, but it makes the need to re-sign him even more important than it was in the offseason. That means freeing up 2009 tax room.
The Hughes and Nocioni performances somewhat cancel eachother out. Nocioni had always been the first person who should be moved, but I think that's nearly impossible at this point without taking a longer and/or more expensive contract in return, or having to package picks or prospects to get a team to take him. However, where I once thought moving Hughes was impossible, I could see a team desperate for wing help taking him, especially considering his 2010 expiring money. He's shooting the ball well and he's not making a fuss over being benched. This will not continue, especially once Hinrich returns. His streak of good play and behavior (I still suspect that meeting with VDN and Pax was telling him to play nice and he'll be moved ASAP) is a great thing, though it's almost been too great, to the point where some fans think he's worth keeping. No, he's not. Stop saying that.
I don't know how much Hinrich's absence hurts his trade value, but I figure that at the very least it eliminated the possibility of him having a great start to the season re-positioning himself as an above average starting point guard. Once he returns, it'll be nearly a season and a half since he's been at that level, the level he's compensated for (and fairly, if that's what he returns to be). However it may be at the point where in order to achieve the ultimate talent and financial goals of this trading season for the Bulls, he'd have to be moved for merely expiring contracts.
So what are those goals? Always in mind should be the search for a frontcourt star, or any young frontcourt player supplying talent and production. These players are very hard to find. I'm not even sure Chris Kaman qualifies, though I can somewhat justify a trade package including prospects/picks for him under the premise that an average 7-footer is more valuable than an average player at another position. Failing that (and especially if you don't need to use any young assets), it should be a fallback goal to acquire a less-than-stellar big man if he is at least competent and his contract expires before 2010. My favorite target, Brad Miller, would be the type of player I mean.
If some sweet deal of a disgruntled star or above-average big doesn't arise, the secondary goal should be getting some breathing room under the 2009 Luxury Tax to re-sign Ben Gordon. This could mean dealing Nocioni for expirings (again, very unlikely), Hinrich for expirings, or Hughes for some savings in 2009 (assuming expirings for him is impossible). I do not think getting any talent value for Hughes is a priority. So, for instance, a hypothetical deal with the Knicks for Malik Rose (expires 2009) and Jerome James (player option 2010) would be worth it, if only for a better chance to re-sign Gordon.
Then beyond that, dealing Hinrich and Nocioni to free up long-term salary is another item on the wish list. Both players have little long-term future here at their pay grade, and while the team isn't overtly gunning for 2010, those two don't need to disqualify them either. Depending on how much 2009 money can be freed up in a Hughes deal, it's possible a team would take either Hinrich's or Noc's long-term deals if they can pass off some 2009 money to get under the salay cap. The Timberwolves, Thunder or Pacers could fit his description. As mentioned above, it's possible Hinrich's injury dashes hopes to get real talent for him. If that's the case, so be it. I don't think Paxson can wait for the hope his value rises, and either Hinrich or Hughes should be gone by the trading deadline.
As you can see, there are a lot of things to consider when approaching this trading season. With December 15th now here and gone, it frees up a lot more options for Paxson. I'm not so confident he sees the same needs for a deal that I do (as he is the same guy who said he couldn't trade Kirk Hinrich in case Ben Gordon left), but if it proves to be merely a dream in terms of real-life practicality, may it be a guideline for the hundreds of trade machine proposals on this site in the future. Have at it.
5 recs |
276 comments
Comments
Not much else to add yfbb
but I did give you a solid rec, one of your best posts in a while!
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 9:23 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Nice Post
here is a trade proposal.. Have at it.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=19812456549617&teams=131344&te=&cash=
by Bulls4Ever on Dec 16, 2008 9:24 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Oh
it’s nice to dream.
Lamar’s not going anywhere on the Lakers….but I LOVE this trade and do think Captain Kirk would be another vital cog to them….
If Lamar gets traded, it’ll likely be for someone like Marion, not injured Kirk.
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 10:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Noc and Kirk
would help the Lakers more than Marion i gauranteee it! It really makes perfect sense for the Lakers. The get a little Euro toughness with an occasional trey from Noc and they get a defensive, better all around pg/sg in Kirk. Both play hard, would be wide open all the time playing with Kobe and both IMO would thrive in the triangle. Imagine these two playing with MJ about 10 years ago. These two guys are exactly what the Lakers would need to beat the Celtics. LO will not help the Lakers beat them.
by Bulls4Ever on Dec 16, 2008 10:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Odom clearly helps them more
Nocioni’s toughness is not championship-caliber. At that level it’s just ‘fouling’.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Not with the way
Noc is playing right now….
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 10:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
right now
Noc is playing like crap but trust me there is enough good tape on Noc over the past 4 years to sell him to a championship squad..
by Bulls4Ever on Dec 16, 2008 10:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe as a 9th man
$6 million a year is a lot to pay for a 9th man, though.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
by Big D on Dec 16, 2008 11:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Plus they have
Radman, Walton, Vujacic all locked up for 3+ years. They’d have to move at least one of these guys, and then also either trade Fisher or Farmar next summer. Not gonna happen.
by kig on Dec 16, 2008 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Again
maybe Kirk wouldnt help them because the pg glut they have. But Radman, Walton they suck as bad as Noc. Vuj isnt going anywhere.
by Bulls4Ever on Dec 16, 2008 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rumor has it
that the Lakers are trying to move Vujacic. If the Lakers can make this into a three way trade I can see them doing it. Kirks defense would be a big help to the Lakers. And the PG plays a different role in the triangle than a regular system.
by J Theory on Dec 16, 2008 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Odom
comes off the bench for them and will never win jack! He has no heart or guts, have you ever seen him play in the post season? Probably not because he’s invisible. While im very down on Noc a change of scenery and a more established team, veteran team like the Lakers would harness his dumbness. Noc could help them alot with his chucking, agravating defense, flopping… granted they already have two solid pg’s in Fish and Farmar. I think Kirk gives them a bit more. Phil doesnt like Odom trust me. I watch alot of Laker basketball because im a huge Kobe fan. Those two would be Vital cogs in the championship wheel…
by Bulls4Ever on Dec 16, 2008 10:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lakers have a Noc
in Vlad Radmonivic and he’s spectacularly awful on defense.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 16, 2008 10:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Questions:
Who are we cutting to accomodate the 3 for 1?
Why would the Wizards trade McGee when he’s shown to be a great draft pick and has his cheap rookie contract?
by arjoseph on Dec 16, 2008 1:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
In regards to your comments on the TT/VDN situation
Check out the intriguing details Poopsworld has to share (“Kissed and Made Up” paragraph):
by kig on Dec 16, 2008 9:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
The Bulls are still very much committed to Tyrus, but Vinny’s outburst in the press did cause the phone to ring in Chicago. Sources close to the situation say Bulls’ GM John Paxson heard from more than a dozen teams testing the waters on Tyrus’ availability and gauging what Chicago would look for in trade. The Bulls at this point have turned away suitors for Tyrus, but it is clear that if things get worse, there are options for Chicago in dealing Thomas – but as of today they remain committed to their young guy, and are trying to be patient as he transitions. Being patient with a 22-year old is not always easy, but even through all of this the Bulls remain committed to Tyrus, so don’t go trading him off just yet.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 16, 2008 9:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's hoping
VDN backs that up by committing some minutes to TT…
by reprisal on Dec 16, 2008 10:19 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Although this is encouraging
I can’t imagine teams are offering much for TT. Probably somebody else’s high draft pick that hasn’t lived up to expectations. Maybe in a package he has value, but other than that his stock can’t be that high right now. The Bulls are better off keeping him because his upside is still very high. He basically can’t get any worse, only grow from here.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 16, 2008 12:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Poopsworld.
Only deemed reliable when want to agree with the crap they write.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Dec 16, 2008 3:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ha!
I somewhat agree.
However I think my hate towards poopsworld was based on one writer, Joel Brigham, who was the chief rumormonger of the summer. Their ‘scouting’ articles are good enough, and I haven’t determined how full of poop the other rumor guys are. From what I’ve heard some are pretty legit.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Deal with the Heat
Heat get
Nocioni
Hinrich
Bulls get
Marion and his expiring 17.81 million
I think this puts us into luxury tax territory by about $105,000.
We’re one a few teams that would be looking forward to “leasing” Shawn Marion through the rest of this season.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 16, 2008 9:35 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Reportedly the Cavs and Heat are discussing a Marion deal
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-marion121508&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
The Cavaliers have had ongoing discussions with the Miami Heat about an Anderson Varejao and Wally Szczerbiak for Shawn Marion trade, a league executive familiar with the discussions said.
That’s a better deal for the Heat.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 16, 2008 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Stupid Wally
God I hate his pretty boy ness and the fact that he’s making way too much money and the fact that he’s expiring makes him tradable….
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Except
Riley has a crush on Kirk Hinrich for his grittiness/pluckiness and defense. And the same probably goes for Noc.
Plus, this way, the Heat no longer have to face Kirk Hinrich’s mean defense on Wade, like yanking his wrists. (Yes, Riley has really said all of these things about Kirk.)
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Dec 16, 2008 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But D. Wade
Hates Noc (fight a few years back and it seems they have issues ever since). Not going to piss Wade off with Noc, especially for Noc’s contract and the bad play he’s given this year.
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
meh
isn’t Noc supposed to be the guy you love if he’s on your team? I mean, I wouldn’t like my teammate jumping on my back when I have the rebound already, but as most of you know, I don’t have ‘the dog’ in me.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I expect Jordan and Pippen hated Rodman
until Rodman became their teammate and helped them win 3 championships.
by Granny Waiters on Dec 16, 2008 10:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would love this deal to happen,
because the Bulls would become the front runners for Brad Miller. Do it, Cavs!
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Dec 16, 2008 11:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
heh
good point.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 11:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
not to mention
that if they win a championship lebron is more likely to stay and knicks are less likely to be able to draw chris bosh which means he is more likely to sign with the bulls once we get rid of hinrich and noc contract!
by Sambossanova on Dec 16, 2008 1:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If the Heat are interested,
it means they are going for 2009 and Boozer. Otherwise, I think the Bulls deal makes more sense for them.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 16, 2008 12:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They don't appear likely to have enough C Space to sign Boozer outright in any case.
And Varejao will likely opt out at the end of the year (he’s got an option).
So my thinking is they’d just rather have Varejao, the 6’10" 250lb younger guy who works his ass off, than the 6’6" 30 year old noted for being unhappy and a poor fit for their offense.
If I were Cleveland, I’m not sure I’d make that trade. I don’t see Marion has a great fit with them either, and Vaejao is quite underrated IMO.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Dec 16, 2008 1:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If Shamsports is correct
they have about 44mm in committed contract next year. ETO are for teams right, not the player?
That should be enough to sign Boozer outright. Especially if Utah goes the lower price route in Millsap.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 16, 2008 1:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ETOs are for the player.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nevermind then.
They still need to make one more deal to get under the cap.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 16, 2008 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, they will be under the cap at $52M
But not enough to make a splash…in fact, I think the MLE will be a bigger splash than their cap space.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Dec 16, 2008 3:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
right, and when that happens
you’re technically over the cap (the cap calculation adds the MLE unless you renounce it)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you understand.
You don’t get an MLE if you are below the salary cap.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Dec 16, 2008 3:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If they are 6-8 million under the cap
Gordon may be a logical target. If he’s determined to leave, he could go there and be the 6th man.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 16, 2008 3:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think YOU understand :-D
When calculating the payroll, they add the MLE to it (as a cap hold, like they do with free agents) unless it’s renounced. Thus why there’s no ‘advantage’ to being over the cap as opposed to being only $2-3m under. It wouldn’t make sense if there was.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 3:37 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No...
It is not like a free agent at all…If a team is not over the salary cap, then they do not have access to the Mid Level Exception…the MLE only applies to teams over the cap.
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q19
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Dec 16, 2008 9:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I am wrong.
And I should have read the next question…God, the CBA is stupid…why do they call it an exception when it is not treated an actual exception to the rule, rather it is part of making the rule itself…anyhow, yfbb is right this time…
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q20
Stupid NBA CBA…the next work stoppage should fix these stupid rules.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Dec 16, 2008 9:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's not stupid
it’s language that fixes a loophole. Otherwise it’s actually (as you pointed out) an advantage to be over the cap instead of $2-3m under. The owners want teams to be under the cap, why discourage that :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 11:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Any thoughts on Drew Gooden?
He’s been playing better than I expected (though his 15 ft. fall away jumpers still make me nervous). His contract expires after this season… any idea if he’s worth anything to anybody?
by paxson43 on Dec 16, 2008 10:13 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
He's worth a
bag of poo lit on fire!!
by Bulls4Ever on Dec 16, 2008 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just let 'im expire
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 16, 2008 10:39 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I guess he's playing better than expected
though I’ve now seen him enough to where I can see why so many teams trade him.
He’s certainly an asset to use, but they have to be careful not to take on more salary in return. If the fact that he’s playing well and expiring means that to some other team he’s a sweetner to move Hughes/Hinrich/Nocioni, then he should be thrown in.
The problem is that expiring deals are mostly useful only to take better players with longer-term salary. The Bulls have to be careful to do that only if they player is way way better. Otherwise the expiring deal is useful if they expire.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 11:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather just have him play out the season
And enjoy the 6.5 million extra cap space to either sign Ben Gordon or sign Paul Milsap.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Millsap
Dude dropped a 30/10 on the Celtics last night. Ridiiiiiiculous.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 12:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
At this point the Jazz are more likely to let Boozer go than Millsap. Seriously
Viva la Rudylucion
by Norsktroll on Dec 16, 2008 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The jazz could get seriously screwed this offseason.
It’s gonna be interesting.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Dec 16, 2008 12:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that's an especially bad idea
if Boozer wants the max. (and not in the Gordon ‘wanting the max’ sense…as in Boozer may actually get it)
I think Boozer’s lack of defensive ability (at a frontcourt position) really keeps him from being that class of player.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Not to mention how poorly he played down the stretch last season.
…and into the playoffs. A team would have to think of him as their final piece to pay Boozer a max contract…I don’t see that happening.
Utah would be better served letting him walk and re-signing Millsap to a cap friendly $8 million per…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Dec 16, 2008 3:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
the Magic gave the Max extraordinare to Rashard Lewis, and the Wizards gave it to Gilbert hurt again Arenas after he missed most of last year and when he did play was a shell of himself, and likely too while his knee was still injured.
Boozer will help sell tickets, so he wouldn’t be a bad piece for a max. He’s a very good player too, lack of D also isn’t as noted by the fans….
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 3:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
To pick nits with you…the Gilbert did not sign for the max and raved about how he took less than the max to help his team improve…of course he is retarded and your example is designed to show the exception to the rule…yes of course some players are overpaid…though I doubt Boozer is one of those guys…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Dec 16, 2008 9:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I want Raef LaFrentz,
meaning both. :)
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Dec 16, 2008 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Great post.
I’m getting scared that Paxson really plans on keeping Kirk and playing him at the two. Seeing as we really don’t have any tradeable assets at the moment, i’m not gonna be as crazy about NEEDING to make a trade. But, I would really love to know Pax’s vision for our backcourt. Is BG gone for sure? Is Thabo done here? Sure would be nice to know what he’s thinking.
by Juiceboxjerry on Dec 16, 2008 10:38 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Pax has to be certifiably insane
to not see his backcourt of the future playing very well right now. They’re top 5 in PER differential playing together. This is outstanding.
Clear cap. Pay BG. If that’s not the plan be prepared to raise the black flag and start slitting throats.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 16, 2008 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
aren't their production numbers
a little inflated by the fact that when they’re on the court, they’re the only ones that actually do anything?
And that would likely change with the addition of a more solid scoring option, like a big man?
and besides, PER doesnt measure defence very well
by CJOliveira on Dec 16, 2008 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm scared of it too
they are likely going to play hardball with Gordon again. Give up Reinsdorf, you lost this negotiation. You have to pay him now. Letting him go while parading out Hughes/Hinrich (or both) as replacements next year is not a real option, unless they want to dress it up as the full-on tank job for 2010 (in which you’d deal Hinrich anyway)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Except
Now Reinsdorf will cite the economy as a main reason why he can’t go into the luxury tax to sign Ben.
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 12:01 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I crafted all this under the assumption that the Tax stance is not going to change
it’s up to Paxson to free up room under the tax.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 12:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i know
I was making an un-funny funny.
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 12:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Reinsdorf won actually
I think BG will sign the same contract he almost took (whatever you want to call it) this offseason. I think this economy means teams won’t be spending. The only team that really is scary as a destination is Portland, but that’s doubtful with Rudy playing so well.
So he got an extra year to evaluate BG for less than his value and still gets a long term deal in place.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 16, 2008 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The Thunder could still sign him as they will be WAY under the cap, I believe
and he would look really good in that backcourt with Westbrook, and then if they added Blake Griffin through the draft? They could go small ball and run Westbrook, BG, Durant, Green and Griffin next year. That’d probably be a pretty decent squad.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 16, 2008 3:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see Presti blowing cap space on anything but a max player.
Nor do I think Ben wants to take a huge step back in terms of winning games. And that team sounds horrible no offense. Talk about no team chemistry. Throwing Ben in with Westbrook and Durant could be disastrous. I guess they have nowhere to go but up as a team though.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 16, 2008 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Ben thinks
he can win a team games.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 3:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He should...
he’s doing it this season.
by kidronmusic on Dec 16, 2008 5:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that team would be better offensively than the one they have now
also, Durant and Ben are both high usage guys who put up a lot of shots, the two of them playing together would mean fewer shots for each and thereby would increase both of their levels of efficiency (especially Durant who is shouldering an unbelievable percentage of the offensive load for the Thunder this year).
by fundamentallysound on Dec 16, 2008 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What kind of backwards logic are you using?
They both take a lot of shots so by combining their high usage rate would increase efficiency? You are forgetting what a high usage player Westbrook is developing into as well.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 16, 2008 4:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
they both would reduce their usage rates as a product of playing together
and when you reduce usage rates, you become more efficient. the logic isn’t backwards at all.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 16, 2008 4:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I have never seen it in use
generally, the less basketballs to share, the more unproductive shots you take. Neither creates assists at a rate that would help each other out. Ben doesn’t shoot worse the more shots he takes. His first shot is just as likely to go in as his 10th or 20th.
See Nuggets with Iverson/Melo
by CJ Bulls on Dec 16, 2008 7:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Until Gordon gets an offer above the MLE.
Nobody has won or lost anything. It still remains to be seen if any teams with cap space will make an offer for Gordon over the Summer…While I agree that Gordon is playing well, overpaying a player is not a good way to build a championship contender.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Dec 16, 2008 3:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yabbut...
…you say that as if it never happens, or that all GM’s have collectively learned a lesson.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 16, 2008 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder how much fun Gordon is having...
and how much he likes being here. Basically, I’m worried that if we offer a similar contract that another team does, he’s gone.
My hunch is that if Hinrich is moved, he’ll be interested in coming back, because it will show that we are hoping to keep him in the starting backcourt. But if the captain is still around, he will be afraid of getting put back into his 6th man role. Which he clearly hates.
by kidronmusic on Dec 16, 2008 5:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
we need to worry less about the 'fun'
Ben is likely not having that much fun in the big-picture sense. The team has proven to not value him as much as they do others, and it probably gets at him since all he does is work on his game and do the best he can.
But he’s having fun on the level that they’re winning (somewhat) and he’s playing well. But I don’t doubt he’s thinking he shouldn’t invest too much emotionally in an organization that won’t invest monetarily.
But if he’s playing like this, who cares? Hinrich was happy and he stunk and then he moped.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 11:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
with trading for some expiring contracts as I have posted some deals on here before involving Kirk and Noc. It will open up more doors in the long run for us.
But one thing that I have to say…. Sorry….. but keeping Hughes around until his contract is up isn’t a bad thing either. Especially if Kirk is moved there won’t be that possibilty of Hughes complaining when Kirk is ready to play.
by J Theory on Dec 16, 2008 10:44 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Once Kirk is ready to play, that's when the fun begins.
I can’t wait to see how Vinny juggles that guard situation. His boss totally screwed him over with that situation.
by Juiceboxjerry on Dec 16, 2008 10:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And in January Gordon is an option to move
Not saying to get rid of him but Paxsons options will open up even more in Feb.
by J Theory on Dec 16, 2008 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not if Gordon doesn't want him to.
And at this point, Paxson and Del Negro will be broiled alive if they sit Gordon the rest of the season just so they don’t have to pay him.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 16, 2008 11:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It won't be easy to move Gordon
That’s for sure. Maybe if they move him to a team with cap room he’d agree.
by J Theory on Dec 16, 2008 11:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Indeed
Have there been any updates as to when Kirk is returning?
by reprisal on Dec 16, 2008 11:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
3 months from October (when he got hurt)
Places him coming back tenatively in January. Then the real fun begins with a guard rotation of Rose, Kirk, Hughes, and BG…..with one of those guards logging close to 40 min a game.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 12:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kirk said
the other night maybe the middle of Feb. He still has the pin in his thumb.
by sue369 on Dec 16, 2008 4:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
good riddence
so probably the 20th then, great
by reprisal on Dec 16, 2008 4:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good for Vinny
Bad for the Bulls long term future.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 10:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OK Matt...
The good:
I like most of your trade proposals.
The bad:
“Tyrus is productive when he plays, it’s stupid coaching and general managing he doesn’t, and I’m pretty tired of saying it.”
How can you justify giving a player minutes when his off-court behavior is “un-professional” (and I know Vinny was using his words carefully)? What kind of message does that send to the rest of the team that no matter how TT or Noah act off the court, they will get playing time? What message would that send to Rose?
Matt, have you ever coached a team? Why is your trust based only on what you see (on-court). Do you not trust Vinny or Pax at all that just maybe they know what they are doing and they are showing an extreme amount of patience with TT and now with Noah. Pax has made more good moves than he has bad. And Gooden’s comments today spoke volumes of how much respect Vinny has with most of the players. The issue is not Pax or Vinny.
One more:
Stop the BG love! Answer this question. It’s a very simple question:
Do you see BG as a starting SG on a championship team?
Pleeeeease give your justifications if you do…
by StephenAA on Dec 16, 2008 10:47 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
If we had any kind of frontcourt right now
we’d be hovering around 6-8 games above .500.
Do you see BG as a starting SG on a championship team?
I do. Let’s roll.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 16, 2008 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I could see BG as a starter on a championship team
With Rose at PG and a center added to the mix. I really don’t understand the question because let’s say Gordon was a starter for the Lakers with Kobe playing at SF and Shaq at center I can see it. Or Jordan bringing up the ball and Gordon out there with Pippen and Rodman; I can see it.
So as long as he’s not the go to guy or handling the ball I can see it. Just have to put him in that postion.
by J Theory on Dec 16, 2008 10:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But the question really is...
Does BG want that position?
Here’s a guy who turned down a really good offer a year ago, why, because he thinks he might some day be as good as Kobe, Wade, etc. All you need to do is score, right. The problem is, BG wants to be the go-to-guy!
Will he ever accept being a 6th man?
Will he ever be a really good spot-up shooter instead of always having to come off screens?
Will he accept 6-8 million per year?
IMO: Answer to all of those – NO!
by StephenAA on Dec 16, 2008 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If the question is that then I would agree
in that regard; on this team – No.
If Paxson feels the same then they should see if they can move him before the trading deadline.
by J Theory on Dec 16, 2008 11:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think
Once/if Gordon is PAID to a contract he likes, he’d play any role given to him.
Gordon’s never complained or pouted about his role. He’s stated he’d like to start, but it wasn’t like he wasn’t competing and playing hard when he was a 6th man.
I don’t think anyone in BG’s position—top scorer and still best player on the team pre Rose—would not try to get more when the guy nipping at his heels but not there and might never be there Luol Deng got $12M more.
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That just might be true
The only time I questioned Gordon was when he had his “toe” injury. But if he was paid I think he would play his part. But is he worth the money to keep him?
If he ends up taking a contract that is similiar to what he almost took this summer I think it’s worth it. Deng and him shouldn’t be paid diffently but why over pay for both of them.
by J Theory on Dec 16, 2008 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The same for me
That toe injury was strange….but I think he learned his lesson after that toe injury cost him time early this year and had Kirk not been hurt, it might have really hurt him.
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 1:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
or he just injured his toe
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 1:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But...
The contract he would “like” gives him starters money!
by StephenAA on Dec 16, 2008 2:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And
he’s proving himself a starter in this league (And frankly had in the past with the 30 MPG and all the scoring, etc).
Bulls were a misffitted team for him in years past, he was our entire offense and the rest of the points were based off of defense, never his specialty.
Now that we have a 2nd offensive option (Still a guard) Gordon looks better overnight, as he doesn’t have to extend himself on O and can conserve energy for D.
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 2:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Based on his performance so far this year...
…the “really good offer” was below what he should be making right now.
It’s more accurate to say that the Bulls turned down a really good player, why, because they think they have just-as-good SG replacements in Hinrich and Hughes.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 16, 2008 11:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ill take a shot at this
Answer: No I dont see BG being a starter on a championship team.
He does have a man crush on BG. Been going for a few years now..
TT has been getting screwed around since day 1 so to think he might talk back or be a smart ass does not suprise me 1 bit. He’s only 22 and continues to get screwed around. the coach starts guys like Gooden who can play like complete crap but there are no ramifacations for his playing time. Kind of unfair IMO. I think they call it a double standard..
by Bulls4Ever on Dec 16, 2008 10:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You can win with Gordon
But I’d like for him to be our #3 option, behind Rose and . Unfortunately, Bulls have a #3 option and superstars don’t grow on trees. So, you make do with Gordon, and find help for the front court.
At this point in time, Bulls need to focus elsewhere besides replacing Gordon. A Championship isn’t going to happen this year or next, so improve on what you have, then go from there.
"Derrick Rose is like a $500,000 Maybach parked in the driveway of a $200,000 house in the middle of nowhere" - Bill Simmons
by RogersPark Kris on Dec 16, 2008 11:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's obvious that on-court production or abilities has little to do with determining playing time.
That’s quite a shame.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 16, 2008 11:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon a champion? Sure.
If Noah turns into a very good defensive player and very good offensive facilitator (which his skills and potential allow), Deng returns to form and improves even “marginally”, Rose turns into an uninjured Baron Davis clone, and the Bulls get Chris Bosh… um, yeah, he’s a great fit as a SG.
Sure, that’s a lot of if’s, but not one that I see as having a poor chance of happening.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 16, 2008 11:32 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 12:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And really...
Just because he’s ‘only’ 6’3" and has some bad turnovers from time to time, that all of a sudden makes him ‘not a championship-caliber SG’ even though when he’s on fire and hitting shots he’s one of the best offensive players in the game? Come the fuck on. I don’t get people. It’s amazing how bad this team would be offensively if he weren’t on the team, yet somehow no one realizes this. His 20 ppg average and occasional 30 to 40 point outbursts aren’t some joke. He’s really good and, with Rose, they could be the most explosive backcourt in the league in a year or two.
And honestly…how many better offensive backcourts are there in the league right now?
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 12:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Point...
“And honestly…how many better offensive backcourts are there in the league right now?”
If all you are looking at is scoring, look no further than Phoenix & GS in the last 15 years.
Let’s count all their championships: 0!
BG would fit right in on both those teams.
It has been proven over and over again that teams that focus on offense do NOT win championships. Defense wins championships!!!!!!!
Point:
IMO, BG will never be that good at defense to warrent starting on a championship team.
by StephenAA on Dec 16, 2008 2:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think BG's PER differential
is top 5 in the NBA because his defense is poor?
BG’s PER: ~19
The PER of the player BG is guarding: ~15
In other words, BG is killing his opponent offensively and BG is containing his opponent defensively.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 16, 2008 2:39 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Stats, ugh...
If all we had to do to make decisons was to look at stats we’d all be great coaches.
How easy decisons would be…
IMO, as I watch BG play, he will never be good enough at defense to be a starter on a championship team. Again, my opinion…
by StephenAA on Dec 16, 2008 3:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I watch BG play this season,
and I see him denying his man lanes and open shots. He’s been playing good D.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
by Prevenge on Dec 16, 2008 5:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Plus...
SG’s that shoot and play D are notoriously hard to find. And they tend to make the max, or close to it.
What would really help is finding a center who plays great defense, and can help out when Ben’s man get’s by him.
by kidronmusic on Dec 16, 2008 5:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think people expectations of SG play around here
(second coming of MJ) are set unreasonably high.
by Granny Waiters on Dec 16, 2008 11:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the fact that BG is so explosive
means that his opposing matchup is going to have to guard him. This makes the opposing player tired. Which makes it more likely that said player is going to not perform as well on the other end of the court.
The only other feasible option is to go after a guy like Joe Johnson in 2010, but I’d much rather know we have BG locked up than take that chance.
Okay, yeah…defense wins championships. But you need players who can score, otherwise you have no chance. The fact that you’re opposed to a backcourt that is this good at producing points doesn’t really make all that much sense. Remember what happened earlier in the year when our tall, defensive-minded SG, Thabo Sefolosha, started games? We couldn’t score, like, at all. Digging yourself a hole early is a recipe for disaster.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hope...
When Rose and then BG hit those succesive three’s last game in the 4th quarter, I did see some glimmer of hope that maybe BG’s offense could overcome his defensive inefficiencies. However, BG still seems to want to be the go-to-guy in clutch time and until that changes, he is hurting this team! Yes, I know Rose is a rookie, but he’s “the guy” and BG has to understand this – NOW!
BTW, Thabo is NOT a SG, he is a SF!! This is the one area that I have been baffled at with Vinny.
by StephenAA on Dec 16, 2008 4:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Funny because the Bulls just got embarrassed tonight
And Ben was notoriously absent from any plays the Bulls were running down the stretch. No screens for him, no isos, just giving the ball to Rose and hoping he creates something.
Ben can be “that guy”, especially against the freaking Bobcats.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 10:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah I see two ways about it
Ben deserved some touches, even if it led to some screaming. He’s good, and he can create his own shot (he can’t create against double-teams, that’s different).
But Rose should be the guy most of the time and if he messes up this time…it’s just a game. If it helps him close in his long future, so be it. I can’t claim to be for development minutes and then wonder what if they took the ball out of Rose’s hands.
Besides, they could’ve both got involved: if Rose creates and dishes to BG…win-win. One problem could be that they never seem to run much of a play besides iso at the top and stand around the 3-point line.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 11:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The biggest issue is they need to go to both to help each
If everyone knows it’s Rose all the way, they’ll clamp down on Rose.
If everyone knows it’s Gordon all the way, they’ll clamp down on Gordon.
If they give both a couple big possessions, it’ll keep the other team guessing. Though, if it’s the iso from the top play no matter what, it ain’t really gonna matter.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Dec 17, 2008 6:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Johnson...
I think JJ is a great target for us in 2010… but he is a secondary need, after a big man like Bosh or Amare.
However, if we sign Gordon now, and then want Joe Johnson, we might be able to use Ben in a sign and trade package to make that happen.
by kidronmusic on Dec 16, 2008 5:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Except championship teams can still have below average defenders and still win
I fail to see how Tony Parker is a good defender, he has 3 rings. Hell, the defensive domination duo of Mo Williams and Delonte West might win a title in a year or so.
You act like a defensive stalwart SG is just so easy to find. Pray tell, how many 2 guards in the NBA actually play shut down defense? Kobe Bryant? Raja Bell and his flops?
BG may not start on a championship team, but SG Candidate 5 doesn’t exist for a reasonable price.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No no. Don't ask him to provide examples.
He’s too busy.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 16, 2008 2:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
BG's turnovers are so overrated anyway
Just because it looks worse when BG dribbles off his leg than when Wade turns it over trying to thread an entry pass doesn’t make it any more or less of a turnover.
by JeffD on Dec 16, 2008 2:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh you're wrong there.
Didn’t NBAO create Ben Gordon Turnovers?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 16, 2008 2:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
not sure it was him
but I remember it had a some sort of multiplier involved that made it worse.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 3:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not justifying this
though I’ll offer that I consider myself the coach of this blog. It’s a biiiiiig doghouse.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
BG
could definitely be a starting SG on a championship team – surrounded by the right players. One of those players could definitely be Derrick Rose. The other 3? Well that’s the million dollar question.
Let’s think at what Gordon’s biggest strength is: Shooting. I think we can all agree on that. Now would he make a good shooting guard? I have to say yes, he would. He’s not a Joe Johnson or an Iggy but the man still puts up the same points night after night. Put some big men in there who aren’t slower than this economy and/or high and watch as defenders leave Ben open for 3 after 3.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Dec 16, 2008 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Correction Ugh
He’s not a Joe Johnson….Gordon’s a better player consistently than Iggy right now. Iggy has more tools though and that’s a bridge that might open up in the future….but I wouldn’t say Iguoldala is hands down better and he’s certainly not playing better today.
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 12:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's funny because I think the Sixers would have been better off with Gordon at the 2
Than Iguodola. Many will hem and haw over that crazy notion, but I think it would have made good sense to pull a sign and trade during the summer.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 12:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's not that crazy
they’re sorely missing outside shooters right now. imagine if they had only kept korver.
by Jaina on Dec 16, 2008 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't have had the cap space to sign Brand.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
And I think we would have been better off with Iggy over Luol….
That’s the paradigm of it all.
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 1:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't saying
Iggy and Johnson were necessarily better players than Ben – though it’s arguable – I was just noting the physical differences in their respective games. The point is whether it’s a layup, floater, dunk, shot or a bounce of the head, a ball that goes in the basket counts – and Gordon’s line will look just like every other top SG – so we should keep him on our team so the points count for us.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Dec 16, 2008 1:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Iggy is no 2
He’s been abysmal this season playing most of his time there. He can’t shoot for shit.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 12:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow...Bold Prediction, Flimsy Premise.
I mean, so could the other 27 starting SG’s in the NBA that have not won a championship.
by Rose'sWickedCrossover on Dec 17, 2008 12:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who cares if he's a starter or not?
I can see him logging 30+ MPG and being on the floor when it matters on a championship team. I don’t care if he’s starting or not (frankly I’d like him to come off as a 6th man but only if there’s a capable 2 guard starting in front of him).
by messwiththebull on Dec 16, 2008 12:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So sort of like a Manu Ginobili?
That’d be fine w/ me.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Dec 16, 2008 12:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
There is some notion by many that there is some great 2 guard just waiting for us to sign that will play lockdown D and hit all the open 3s in the world…..but this guy doesn’t exist. If the Bulls sign D-Wade that’s another story, but I don’t think it’s likely.
Ben Gordon is good folks. Maybe if the Bulls tried to develop Thabo into that athletic 2 who could defend and hit some open shots people wouldn’t be so scared of BG starting.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Remember when VDN told us that he was all about development?
Yeah, me too…
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 12:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We'll see
He’s doing a fine job developing and working with Rose….and we’ll see if the benching tactics etc work on Tyrus and Noah….
I mean it’s not like Tyrus and Noah didn’t have their issues before. It’s more on them to come prepared and want to be pros than it’s on Vinny to let his guard down just to play guys who aren’t working as hard as the rest to learn the system (even if they’re better long term, they aren’t there yet, and frankly the better long term is a hope based on their athleticism only). I think it’s more than possible, but they need to work to be the good players they should be.
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 1:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What's rose doing that he hasn't done in college?
So he’s letting him play? Or he’s forced to let him play? That’s good, but hardly the sign of a good coach.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 16, 2008 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And Rose playing right now isn't even primarily about his 'development'
The reason he’s playing almost 40 minutes per game is because, you know, he’s the best player on the team. Even VDN gets this.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The improvements Rose has made
Mainly his surprising shooting touch…how much did the coaching staff help? Did Rose just take 1000 shots a day, or did Vinny actually teach him something about his form?
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It does seem like he has a good rapport
with whoever our shooting coach is. I forget his name.
But I definitely think it’s mostly about Rose’s apparently absurd work ethic. Frankly, though, I never really understood the knocks on his jumper in college. It wasn’t that bad.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 2:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I know it helps
that Rose is a mega talent, but what coach hasn’t succeeded who didn’t ahve at least 1 mega talent.
Facts are facts Rose is ahead of the curve, VDN and crew have managed to create an offense that features solid shooterso n the wings where they should be, and open area for Rose to do his thing and inside post players who unfortunately can’t play inside.
Rose looked pretty shaky his first few games and then it clicked, and you can see the rest of the guys are learning to play with Rose.
If the coach has NOTHING to do wtih that, then why have a coach in the NBA anyway?
I mean, sure it might not all be Vinny, he has a great staff with Harris and Bickerstaff leading the charge….people forget that, it seems the coaching is learning the staff we have and doing a fine job, much better at motivating too than Skiles of last year and he who shall never be named again.
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 3:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't mean to write that as an indictment
I genuinely wonder how Rose improved his shot. Since we don’t have a beat writer to ask that stuff, or maybe I missed it, I wonder how the “no jumpshot” Rose got one.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 3:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly
I think it was just way overblown coming into the year.
I watched him a lot at Simeon and he was hitting the high school three with good consistency his senior year. And that’s pretty much what he takes most of the time now, about 20 feet out.
by CrashDavis on Dec 16, 2008 3:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
From
preseason to now I’d say Rose is doing a lot of things better. It’s also a completely different level. Look at what many other college studs are doing in the pros (Morrison, Reddick, hell unfortunately Thomas and Noah—though they do have potential).
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 3:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why would you want him to come off the bench if he's playing 30 mpg?
So we get off to a terrible offensive start?
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 12:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ideally
if the Bulls were ever to get to a point where BG would be coming off the bench, they’d have a few big guys to go into and establish the post game and then, at about the 4 min. mark put Gordon in for a nice 9-0 run to end the quarter. At least that’s the world I hope to someday live in.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Dec 16, 2008 1:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah BG is a 6th man only on a team with a go-to scorer inside
And a 2 guard who is excellent defensively (and really he’d have to be good to keep BG out of the lineup) and can hit the open J.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 2:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The only team I could see taking Nocioni
would be Toronto. Several reasons: they have a low payroll and can take him on, have the scrubs to match (Kapono, etc), they have a Euro feel, lack toughness, and love to shoot threes. Otherwise I can’t imagine anyone taking him. He’s that bad.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Dec 16, 2008 11:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I agree Toronto is a possible destination, but they're so thin I don't think they can trade too many bodies
how about the Timberwolves?
Right now, the Wolves sport the 29th ranked PER differential at the 1 and 3. Their 3s are the worst scoring group in the league. Their 1s are the 2nd worst bunch. Say what you will about small ball and Love/Jefferson, but this team’s biggest personnel problems are around the perimeter. They are absolutely dysfunctional in the back court.
Not that Nocioni would help PER differential at this time…but it’s possible the Wolves could think he still can :). We also have a spare PG somewhere.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 12:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Either are possible,
but to my way of thinking, it’s more likely to happen with Toronto. Colangelo is on record as saying he needs to make a major move before the deadline, and Toronto knows that the only 2010 free agent that they have a hope of signing is Chris Bosh. Additionally, there’s that league-sentiment that veterans win in playoff time, and Toronto fancies themselves contenders…so why not Noc? Queue up the “happy birthday” game and the Olympic tapes.
As for the Wolves, of course I love the idea of dealing both Hinrich and Nocioni is one fell swoop, and it’s true that they’re backcourt is possible the worst in the league. I mean, Hinrich would be their best guard…they might even want Thabo now that Corey’s out…
Overall, though, it’s slim pickings. The only silver lining is that, by 2010, Noc will be making less. I think I’ve heard his contract will be down to 6 million at that point.
Fact checkers?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Dec 16, 2008 12:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
6.65 to be exact
I think the Twolves are great destination for Kirk and would give us nice return pieces and cap relief.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 16, 2008 12:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
thanks
for future reference, where did you find that?
And yeah, Kirk to the Wolves, Noc to Toronto, and I’m a happy man. Slowly but surely I’m convincing myself that, while everyone’s watching 2010, we’re going to find the answer to our interior troubles by picking up 23 y.o. future 18/10 guy, Paul Millsap, in the offseason. Not only that, the dude plays defense.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Dec 16, 2008 12:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's 6.85
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-player-salaries/team/Bulls/
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Milsap is a dream
The Jazz know which of their big men is more valuable to them at this point. Given Boozer’s age, injury history, I wouldn’t give that guy a max extension ever.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
he's restricted, right?
I wonder how much the Jazz are willing to pay him.
honor rasheed wallace
by Cablinasian on Dec 16, 2008 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Unrestricted, I thought,
and the Jazz are basically going to have huge contracts to Williams, AK-47, and Okur. I agree with Ozzie that Boozer isn’t worth the max…but if they do sign him, I hope to God Pax moves quickly. Of course, that would mean freeing up cap space now, and for Paxson to…move quickly.
Oy.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Dec 16, 2008 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What a luxury to have when you
develop players that display talent and potential and surround them with really really stinking good players to boot.
I need a Paxsons dart board.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 16, 2008 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Jazz will have to move one way or the other.
While Reinsdorf hems and haws about the tax, the Jazz probably pretty legitimately can’t afford to pay it.
They’re looking at salary of $73M next year if Boozer ($12.3M) and Okur ($9M) don’t opt out of their deals.
I’d be willing to bet Boozer opts out, which means he’s probably expecting more than $12.3M.
Matt Harpring is non-guaranteed, so you can subtract out $6.5M from that, but there’s no freaking way that lets them resign-Milsap. Plus you’ve got to add another million or three for draft picks and minimum salary guys to round out their roster.
I have to think that if I’m Utah, I’d try to move Boozer sooner rather than later and make re-signing him someone else’s problem. Get an expiring contract and a draft pick, and you’ll still have room to turn around and keep Okur and Milsap. You can probably keep Milsap for a bit less than what Boozer was due to make anyway. Match any offers since he’s an RFA.
Do we have any interest in Boozer, or perhaps not since Jim and John Paxson are probably not willing to go there?
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Dec 16, 2008 2:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If the Bulls wanted him
Let’s suppose Boozer for Gooden, Gray and our 2009 number 1st rounder.
We’d pay the luxury tax this year barring another trade, and we wouldn’t have enough money to re-sign Gordon.
So to pull a trade like that, we’d have to do something like turn around and trade Hinrich for LaFrentz or the Hughes for Malik Rose/Jerome James trade Matt suggested. Likely both.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Dec 16, 2008 2:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't really work for either side
Yes for the Bulls if they get assurances Boozer will re-sign. Given his past backstabbing, I wouldn’t trust it. So now they have to work to re-sign both he and Gordon?
The package is very unappealing to the Jazz. They are making a title run. Why drop an all-star for basically nothing in order to gain a 1st round pick.?They already have a project center in Koufos. What happens if Millsap gets hurt. It hardly seems worth it.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 16, 2008 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
I would like to get Boozer. But I think the Jazz are better off trying to win a title this year. At least getting deep in the playoffs.
They have been quietly winning a decent amount of games with their best players injured this year. I wouldn’t be too surprised to see them have a great second half of the season with everybody healthy.
by kidronmusic on Dec 16, 2008 6:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think they adopt the Phoenix strategy
And just sell their draft pick to stave off tax concerns?
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 2:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Jim's
off our team I thought (I thought he left last year). Hopefully John can see talent over personal issues. Boozer would be a nice addition, though we’d still need more from Noah and Thomas.
A defensive presence down low though might be our best bet, as Thomas’s upside could make him better than Boozer by the time Boozer’s contracts up…..signficantly better (Thomas somehow has developed a nice curve to his shot, he just seems to get frazzled and they aren’t dropping)…..that’s a remarkable improvement technically from last year….
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 2:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if Tyrus/Noah could play next to Boozer
Okur seems like a pretty good fit because he’s a high post guy. Noah and Tyrus doing that is a softly whispered dream.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Dec 16, 2008 2:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Man if we kept Hughes
and got Okur, I’d be ecstatic come 2010…..imagine too if we could rid ourselves of Kirk and use Kirk money to keep BG.
We run for Bosh and have a Rose-BG-Deng-Bosh-T2/Noah team. Athletic, quick, versatile, skilled, a bit small but who cares.
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we should sign Kendrick Perkins to a 3 year
80 million dollar contract.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't get the sarcasm
I was merely indicating it would be tough to get Okur with the 2010 climate, but there is a chance we could try to use Gooden (expiring—essential for Utah) with Nocioni (a Sloan type gritty player who though he’s awful so far this year is a better player than he’s shown and might give a talented Jazz club the proper kick in the groin they’ve needed), Thabo, and our draft pick and come out I don’t know (haven’t seen if it works) with Okur and Harpring, that perhaps we’ll be ok and have room to be major players in that free agency….
If we had $22M to spend, Bosh or Bosh like will come crawling.
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 3:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think dumping Noc for Matt Harpring and Jarron Collins
seems like a decent value for Noc (Collins expires this year, Harpring in 2010). Harpring is a pretty similar player to Noc, although less offensively talented and better on defense. I’m not sure the Jazz would do it given the length of Noc’s contract, but it’d be worth at least proposing to them.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 16, 2008 4:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Shamsports.com
Most accurate public web source I know about.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 16, 2008 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that's outside of the family
You get to off one of my guys now.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 16, 2008 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kirk for McCants and Collins?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 16, 2008 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
in a millisecond
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 1:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Take the 14 million in cap space from those 2 and Gooden expiring?
Use it to sign either BG or a competent big man (my man crush Milsap)? Ohhhhh ya, we’d all do this trade.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Would Minnesota?
I’d have to think so, no?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 16, 2008 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He's an obvious upgrade for them
I’m just not sure if they want to get incrementally better, or want to go after some big name free agent eventually. They have a new GM so it’s tough to know what their long term plans are (since under McHale they had none other than milk KG for a decade).
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
a problem with getting under the cap
the ‘09 free agent class isn’t that great, and FAs wouldn’t put the TWolves on the top of their list. Unless they wanted to go after Ben Gordon, who I assume would go anywhere if he got paid at this point.
They can always get under the cap and then deal for Hinrich if FA options don’t pan out.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Won't Kirk
make McHale happy as a Danny Ainge 2.0?
If McHale is getting the band back together, can we help him out?
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 16, 2008 2:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that still wouldn't put them under the cap
Think Milsap would take the MLE? Jazz would match that, they did match a similar deal for CJ Miles.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 1:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And the more I think about this
you know McHale would just LOVE Kirk’s grittiness, veteran presence, hard-nosed defense…the list goes on!
The T-Wolves have got to be a pretty realistic destination, especially now that they think Foye is a 2.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Their problem
is they think Foye’s an NBA player.
zing!
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Dec 16, 2008 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Remember when they wanted him over Roy?
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
they can still think he's a player...at the 2
And Kirk has experience playing alongside a diminutive backcourt mate (or two). The Bulls beat writers can forward their excuse list when Hinrich has to defend bigger players :-p
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
we can save Minne some time...
there’s no need to forward anything when they’ve got all the excuses they need right here. just need to look in the archives a bit.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Dec 16, 2008 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You need cap space? Then we obviously need to reunite Tyrus with his nemesis LaMarcus ;-)
Trade
Viva la Rudylucion
by Norsktroll on Dec 16, 2008 11:45 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
E gadz, man,
never, no way, no, uh-uh, ::head shake::, and also, last but not least, heeeeeelllls no.
On the other hand, Oden’s looking awesome! Is blazer-nation in a state of bliss?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Dec 16, 2008 11:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We could add some cash and give you your second round picks from the Ömer Asik trade back…
But yeah, while I think the Blazers were one of the teams that called about Tyrus and Hinrich I don’t think that exact trade would really go down.
Viva la Rudylucion
by Norsktroll on Dec 16, 2008 11:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The only thing that makes sense for us
is RLFZ for Hinrich, more or less straight up. That way we could resign BG and go after Paul Millsap, he of the 32/10-against-the-Celtics! game, in the offseason.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Dec 16, 2008 12:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To answer your question
Blazer fans have kind of decided to reserve judgment for a few months with Oden. At this point, he is still lacking his athletic prowess that made him such a force… go youtube his summer league 2007 highlight videos. He was fast, cat-quick, and jumped out of the gym.
The fact that he played 42 minutes and put up a 15-15 is encouraging, but I don’t want to judge him either way until he is 18-20 months back from microfracture. I mean, Amar’e took three years to fully regain his athleticism… It’s a work in progress.
I like Greg though. Hollinger wrote a story recently that showed how good of a guy he is. The NBA needs Greg to be a star… such a class act. Fans would fall in love with him all over the league. Except Sam Smith. Apparently he knows more than everyone.
Raef for Hinrich? I’d do it in a flash, but I’d try to throw in some other pieces to balance out the roster. We’d have Sergio, Bayless, Hinrich, Blake, and Roy playing point. We’d trade Blake to you guys probably.
honor rasheed wallace
by Cablinasian on Dec 16, 2008 12:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't mind Blake
and Ike Diogu is intriguing (as long as it’s still 2006)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 12:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ha.
Blake has been really good… kind of like a Hinrich who can’t drive or play defense… but he doesn’t turn it over and he shoots the three well. He’d be a solid fifteen minute per game player on the Bulls.
And don’t bag on Ike. He is going to be a star in this league. I bet if given minutes he’d get at least a 5/5 every night. He’s Charles Barkley without the personality, scoring and rebounding. In other words, an absolute beast. Plus, Jay Bilas says he has great length.
honor rasheed wallace
by Cablinasian on Dec 16, 2008 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Why is Blake your starting PG?
I still don’t understand this. Isn’t Sergio a better player, about the same shooter? Hell, what about Bayless and just let Roy run the offense?
I like the Blazers but the Kevin Pritchard Paper Champs confuse me sometimes.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 12:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
McMillan does seem to have a bizarre rotation
but, since they’re winning, it MUST be a bizarrely genius rotation.
by potato0328 on Dec 16, 2008 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
Or maybe because Brandon Roy is really good, and they are just insane with their rebounding at center. Oh, and I guess that sissy Aldridge is a decent player :(
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
still a sissy though.
never forget!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 1:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No
Sergio is not shooting anywhere near the same percentages as Blake. Blake is reliable and also works well as an off-guard when someone else is handling the ball, just waiting for open threes. He really is a less expensive but somewhat worse version of Kirk.
Sergio has improved again from his horrible last season and gets more minutes, and some Blazer fans will still tell you he is the next coming of Steve Nash or at least Jason Williams, but that is a really high ceiling. His shot is flat and fairly inconsistent. He doesn’t finish at a high rate around the basket. He is a pass-first point guard who would be great in a running offense (which we don’t have, not even on a second unit that could do that). Nice backup, room for improvement.
Bayless is the guard of the future next to Roy with off the charts athleticism compared to the other two guys, but he needs time to learn leading a team and unlike your young prodigy Rose (why were there ever discussion about drafting Beasley again?) also two players ahead of him. He is working very hard in training, and will see more consistent time as the season progresses. Expect to see him a lot in a year or so.
Viva la Rudylucion
by Norsktroll on Dec 16, 2008 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
re:
why were there ever discussion about drafting Beasley again?
How many suicides would there have been from this blog alone if Pax took Beasley? It really is hard to believe it was even a “debate.”
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 1:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather take the 'safe' backup
since he’d only be getting 8-10 minutes behind Rose anyway.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sergio would drive you guys nuts.
Blake would be a good fit. And he could play off-guard with Rose occasionally if needed.
honor rasheed wallace
by Cablinasian on Dec 16, 2008 1:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nvm about Sergio then
I’ve only seen him a few times, I’d much rather have a backup who is reliable and a consistent outside shooter. Plus a guy like Blake would probably make Pax’s heart flutter.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 2:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sergio can not shoot.
His shot is very, very flat. Kind of like a line drive. Plus he can’t finish at the rim.
Blake is the starter for this year. He’ll be supplanted next year… my money is on Bayless. The reason Bayless isn’t playing much now is because McMillan hates playing rookie point guards.
Pritchard has said that they were targeting Bayless before his freshman season at Arizona. They believe he is the prefect complement to Roy… and he will be. My favorite part of the season, ahead of every win, was watching him not being intimidated by KG. KG tried to front him and Bayless walked straight through him. Didn’t even acknowledge his presence. Kid is a stone cold killer.
honor rasheed wallace
by Cablinasian on Dec 16, 2008 1:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That trade, to me, looks as though a Blazer fan took all of Chicago's good players and gave them crap back.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
by Prevenge on Dec 16, 2008 5:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, OK, not good players,
but I don’t want Portland’s scrubs, really. :P
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
by Prevenge on Dec 16, 2008 5:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice post. I totally agree on BG
the dude deserves to get his more than Luol did IMO. I just wish we heard more from Paxson on his goals for this team other than “working hard, competing”. If I were Reinsdorf I’d put Paxson and Kenny Williams together for a while and then maybe we’ll see some of the fire that Williams has in Pax.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Dec 16, 2008 11:52 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I dont' like getting too much into the psychoanalysis of Pax
as it’s ‘exult’ territory. (“psycho” in general is also ‘exult’ territory)
But if you listen to both of them talk, it sure sounds like Williams really loves his job. Paxson always sounds fatigued nowadays.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 11:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right.
I think it can be agreed here that Pax laying out a blueprint of his plans for the next two years would not only be impossible at this point, but also very foolish. I don’t care about his mood/feelings, just his ideas about the direction of this team.
We used to be the gritty, defensive team under Skiles. Now we’re …? Rose’s drive-and-kick team? Luol’s slashing/spot up shooting team? Does anyone know? Does Paxson know that there is a clear blueprint out there right now for beating this team on a nightly basis? I sure hope he does, and is doing something to fix that.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Dec 16, 2008 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
he has said that the 'identity'
is that we have Derrick Rose. So everything is about that.
But then when he says you can’t trade Kirk Hinrich as insurance for Gordon…that doesn’t follow with the philosophy.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 12:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Pacers eh?
Anybody seen Hibbert play? Is he legit?
Good post btw
"If there’s any haters in here right now that don’t have nobody to hate on, feel free to hate on me." - A.P.N.S.
by Belize on Dec 16, 2008 11:56 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Might as well throw
my hat into the ring. Pick away.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Dec 16, 2008 12:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I've thought about something like that too
but I don’t think the Mavs give up Dampier without getting some size back in return.
by arjoseph on Dec 16, 2008 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
agree on that point
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta disagree on the TT consistent minutes
He got relatively consistent minutes through November. During that time TT strayed further and further from the basket and wasn’t rebounding very well. Then he was given the cold shoulder from VDN.
Now we’ll see how he responds to more consistent minutes.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 16, 2008 12:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
...maybe the coaches should have told him to play closer to the basket
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that's the point
the coaches were telling him this and he wasn’t listening. Hence the benching.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 16, 2008 1:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you have a quote/link that says they were telling him to play closer to the basket?
Because I doubt this happened.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No I do not
But I have Vinny’s rant about playing the right way. There seems to be a general consensus TTs game is going towards the basket not away. I just inferred the rest given his below 40 fg%
by CJ Bulls on Dec 16, 2008 2:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The point is that they should have "coached"
him through this instead of just flat-out benching him. How will they ever know what they really have in Tyrus if he’s shown the pine every time he fucks up?
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 2:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
All I ever heard Vinny say
was that he was fine with his shot selection.
by JeffD on Dec 16, 2008 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
A good coach would pull him aside and say “Hey, Tyrus. Clearly your mid-range jumpers aren’t working right now, so play closer to the basket and look for offensive boards and easy dunk opportunities. That should help you get going.”
Is it that difficult?
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 2:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
VDN has noted to not speak out about players
so I doubt he’d come out and say, “Well I told him to stop shooting jumpers but he just keeps taking ’em.”
That being said, I think they have told him. For the first month and a half they told him and he doesn’t listen. So they bench him. Then he listens. That’s the point. For all the complaints about how VDN has handled the situation, Tyrus had his best game of the year after the outburst. Can we not read something into that?
I’ve heard many a former player on telecasts comment the one thing players respond to is playing time. Taking away minutes is a form of coaching.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 16, 2008 2:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Meh
I think you’re reaching on multiple assumptions here.
One, that Tyrus wasn’t listening. I think they told him to keep shooting, as Tyger noted, which I think is stupid since he was missing horribly. Encourage him to play closer to the basket, at least until he can start getting himself some easy buckets so his confidence could be improved.
Two, his outburst the other night probably had little to do with the callout. Tyrus does that type of shit all the time when he actually gets real minutes. Seems like a fairly obvious “coincidence” to me.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 3:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
I don’t think Tyrus has had 3 alley oops all year?
He also hasn’t beaten anyone down the court all year until that game. I don’t think that’s a coincidence at all. Same with Noah. Both played with significantly more “energy” for lack of a better term.
I understand it may be reaching, but I feel relatively confident about it. That’s just my opinion though.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 16, 2008 3:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why
would he say that publicly though:
Press says: “What do you think about Tyrus’s 2-17 shooting tonight”
Vinny replies: “Kid can’t shoot, he’s awful, he needs to play more inside and stop shooting.”
I think Vinny handled that fine and then talked to Tyrus about it.
Tyrus too you may remember WAS hitting those shots in preseason and game 1 this year…
by majoyenrac on Dec 16, 2008 3:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Vinny also stated that Thomas had worked on J over the summer...
…and didn’t want to hurt his confidence by telling him not to shoot it.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 16, 2008 2:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe if the Bulls handed out big David Thorpe masks to everyone at the UC
Tyrus would stroke those J’s.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was totally on board with that sentiment
especially since he had his jumper going well in the preseason. But it’s not there right now, and Tyrus has to focus on what he does well before he should focus on expanding his game.
I’m assuming the coaching staff have expressed those sentiments. It may be a reach, but I think it’s convenient that has been a theme of Stacy King’s broadcasts the last week or two. I don’t think that happens by accident. I think he talks to the coaches and they discuss these things.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 16, 2008 3:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Camby?
The Clips need some SG help, and maybe we could get them to take Hinrich.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=1981125&teams=124&te=&cash=
I know this is a straight one for one, and more may be needed to make the trade happen. I just think that Camby can help us now, and then he comes off the books in 2010. They need to get rid of a big man in Clip land, and while everyone has been talking about Kaman I ask, why not Camby?
If we aren't careful, the leanness we now feel will be the starvation of those we serve.
by Chi 'Till I Die on Dec 16, 2008 1:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
works for me.
I’ve long said Camby isn’t the perfect mate for Tyrus/Noah like my guy Brad Miller. But he certainly is competent, and it looks like statistically he’s playing out of his mind right now.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 1:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Here is a link...
to the Clippers blog and a post about Bulls-Clippers trade possibilities…
the deal they thought made the most sense was Hughes+Noah+pick for Camby+filler
I would do that in a heartbeat.
by kidronmusic on Dec 16, 2008 6:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Meh... not giving up Noah
I think I’d probably give up the pick, but I’d be much more inclined to do Thabo or Tyrus.
Noah and the 09 and 2010 picks are cheap assets we’ll have going into the 2010 offseason. Moving one of them for short-term gain hurts more than moving Thabo or Tyrus, who won’t be on their rookie deals any more.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Dec 16, 2008 6:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that deal could work
for Kaman, not Camby as he would just be a rental.
You could make a case that Tyrus + Hughes for Camby would work. But that only makes sense if you play on going after a free agent in 2010.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 16, 2008 7:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If you follow the link...
the Clippers fans are pretty sure that we have no shot at Kaman. He is one of MDSR’s favorite’s and they don’t think he would give them up for anything we have.
by kidronmusic on Dec 16, 2008 7:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe Dunleavy is gone soon too :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 11:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
looks pretty reasonable
They definitely could use some guard help. Seems like there should be some kind of match there.
by reprisal on Dec 16, 2008 1:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
they need wing help so bad
they may even take Hughes. Not sure if Hinrich could play alongside Baron Davis, for similar reasons that he can’t play the SG here.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 1:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Can you imagine the chucking
that would go on with a Baron/Larry backcourt? I think the addition of Hughes is the only thing that would make that team even more hilaroius
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 2:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ricky Davis plays for them
Hughes is a better player than Ricky (and less of a cancer). They are assuming Eric Gordon becomes a really good player, Hughes for a season and a half might not be a bad idea for them.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 16, 2008 2:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I'd be selling them on if I'm Pax
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 2:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It would be a thing of perpetual terror
Over under on how quickly Larry Hughes would become regular punching bag in Simmons work considering he goes to alot of Clippers games?
If we aren't careful, the leanness we now feel will be the starvation of those we serve.
by Chi 'Till I Die on Dec 16, 2008 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It would be amazing
Simmons couldn’t have season tix for a better team right now. His diatribe lambasting Dunleavy a few weeks back was unbelievably hilarious.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Dec 16, 2008 2:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So true
say what you will about BS, but the man knows a good amount about the NBA. I read that article when he talked to the father and son at the game. Heard a stat about how the Clips have dipped almost 17% in attendance. It’s a dark time to be a clippers fan.
If we aren't careful, the leanness we now feel will be the starvation of those we serve.
by Chi 'Till I Die on Dec 16, 2008 3:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be all over this,
but I don’t know if the Clips would. I don’t see how they trade Camby instead of Kaman. Sure, Kaman is younger, but on that team Camby makes so much more sense. He doens’t need the ball at all to get his stats and influence the game, and he expires (or rather, his contract expires — though with his injury woes, I guess you could say his career might expire any minute) at a very attractive time if the Clips want to shake it up. They’ve got their SG of the future in Eric Gordon, and they’ve got their expensive PG in Baron. I would think they’d be looking for forward help in whatever trade they make, so I don’t know how attracted they’d be to Hinrich.
But like I said, sign me up. I guess you never know with Dunleavy.
by arjoseph on Dec 16, 2008 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that's very true
assuming they won’t be able to move Randolph, keeping Camby makes more sense.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 1:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That is valid
and my biggest fear. Like I said, I know the talk is about moving Kaman, but I wonder if we can get Camby. Reading the responses to my initial post I do think Hughes would be a better fit in a trade (Keep hitting those game winners Larry!) and hopefully looks more attractive. I know Gordon is the SG of the future, but i am hoping the old School Dunleavy will want some “veteran” presence at the 2 spot. Again its a long shot, but I just love the idea of having Camby for 2 years before 2010 and letting Noah and Gray develop during that time.
If we aren't careful, the leanness we now feel will be the starvation of those we serve.
by Chi 'Till I Die on Dec 16, 2008 3:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
can somebody tell me
why the bulls didnt go out and get camby this summer when the nuggets were giving him away?
by jpm356 on Dec 16, 2008 6:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
because the Nuggets wanted cap relief and the Bulls couldn't offer it.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Dec 16, 2008 6:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was because Paxson had no balls
or Deng had no balls. Or Gordon had too much balls. WHO HAD ‘THE DOG’ AND WHO DIDN’T!!!!!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 11:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're really getting
good use out of that “dog” line. I wonder how many people missed the other thread and just think that you sound like an idiot now.
by kidronmusic on Dec 17, 2008 1:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's what "Having the Dog" encompasses
Just because a guy is the board leader in getting floorburns doesn’t make me like him anymore. I respect the talent and the will to win. If he happens to get a floorburn then that’s cool.
by reprisal on Dec 17, 2008 1:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd pretty gladly give them Thabo if it'd seal the deal.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Dec 16, 2008 3:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Bulls should try to give Thabo up in any deal that stays with in the rules.
The more salary of not-integral players to rid for next year, the better.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Dec 16, 2008 3:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Thabo is a throw-in type player. It’d be nice if he was around if Noc got booted, but not to the point where they have to keep Thabo just in case of that event.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 16, 2008 4:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Great points about Tyrus
it’s so frustrating when there’s such overwhelming support of him from the fanbase, but the coaching staff hardly believes in him.
by mjthor on Dec 16, 2008 1:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Well according to
hoopsworld, he’s still not being discussed in trade talks, so I wouldn’t go so far as to say they have no belief in his ability…..based on his play on the court this year, you’d think they’d deal him for Antoinne Walker…..which is saying a lot.

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