A Few Thoughts From Last Night
by Bigred15 on Dec 10, 2008 8:10 AM CST
Email
Print[From the FanPosts. I didn't feel like doing a recap, so here's someone elses -ed.]
Last night’s game against the Knicks was particularly confounding to me, so I decided to put some stuff out there to see if anyone else is thinking the same things.
· If Gray is going to start, at least play more than the first 5 minutes of each half. Especially against a team as small as the Knicks. It’s like the beginning of the season all over again with Sefalosha. You’re starting someone just because they are tall, not because they give you any real advantages.
· Until the end of the game, there seemed to be little to no strategy at all. It seems VDN was content with the “just keep it close then give the ball to Rose at the end strategy”. Which is no real strategy at all. It wasn’t until the fourth quarter they realized that “hey, no one on the team can guard Drew Gooden in the post”. After they started doing that a strange thing happened; New York doubled him. Then it was just a matter of moving to ball to the open shooter. Wow, this basketball stuff is pretty easy when you actually sit and think about it.
· I am still amazed that it took until the half for the Bulls coaches to realize what the Knicks offensive (and defensive) game plan was when I’m sure everyone else noticed early in the first half. The Knick used the pick and roll and the Bulls switching defense to make Rose guard bigger players in the post. Since the Knicks don’t play defense, this was the closest thing they had to a defensive game plan, since they were hoping to wear Rose out of put him in foul trouble.
· In a game that would have played to their strengths and minimized their weaknesses, Sefalosha and Thomas did not play a single second. I thought Noah was the one who was in the doghouse, not Thomas. Which brings me to my next point.
· In my estimation, the Bulls are about 11 players deep. The Knicks only have seven players that are physically able to play. The Knicks were tired at the end of the game, imagine if we had went more than 8 players deep and ran a ¾ court press. The Knicks would have been gassed by the third quarter.
· Starting and/or playing certain players because of perceived matchups should only be done sparingly. VDN has been doing this all season and it needs to stop. You win games by enforcing your will upon the other team, by making them put other players in to counter the mismatches that your players have caused and making the other team play the way that you want. You usually establish this at the beginning of the game. So if you play to take advantage of the fact that you have smaller and more athletic players at most positions; then starting someone who has the size and mobility of a semi is counter-productive.
· How long is it going to take before the players realize that passing the ball to teammates makes it easier to score and wears out the defense. As a by-product, making a team play hard on defense makes them lethargic on offense.
That’s all I have for now, you may now return to your regularly scheduled program.
FanPosts are user-created posts from the BlogABull community, and are to be treated as the opinions and views of that particular user, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.
200 comments
|
2 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Good analysis...
Also, DR seemed really off his game last night, though when I looked at the box score this morning, it actually wasn’t that bad at all. He scored as many points at Du, who seemed to have a good game, though he had half the assists. It also frustrates me how no one ever seems to pass the ball back to DR when he gives it up.
by bullsfaninbigapple on Dec 10, 2008 8:38 AM CST reply actions
that's what happens
when DRose is passsing it to Hughes, Gooden, Noc and Gordon (which was a lineup used frequently during the game). They’re chuckers, plain and simple.
This game killed me too
I just really don’t get what the Bulls are trying to do with Noah and Thomas. It seems to me that they don’t think those two guys can play together. But what’s really mystifying to an outsider is to see Tyrus play his best little stretch of the year (admittedly only three fairly solid games) and then get completely shut down by the coach. And then see Noah, after riding the pine, get fairly significant minutes.
Maybe something’s going on behind the scenes, but it sure looks like they get jerked around from here.
De gustibus non est disputandum
I'm holding out hope
that VDN/Pax are showcasing Hughes and maybe Noc (thought that would be backfiring since he’s sucking) and Gooden in order to move them at the trade deadline.
I doubt that..
…they are all veterans, and GMs know them for what they are. If anything, we should be showcasing TT and Noah.
by bullsfaninbigapple on Dec 10, 2008 8:54 AM CST up reply actions
I wrote Sam Smith about it the other day in his "Hughes conundrum" post
My response is what’s the question here? The moment an acceptable contract is offered for Hughes, the Bulls should count their lucky stars and move him. Doing anything else is playing with fire.
His response was “but that’s what they often do”.
Yuck. I know many teams do this, but would it be too much to ask that the Bulls simply make this move before it kills them. There are 3 or 4 teams out there that are in obvious need of a SG. Get it done.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Dec 10, 2008 9:11 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm convinced they must be showcasing.
First, Paxson is a poor evaluator of talent. I think that much is certain. He has no clue more than you or I do about how good a player is, how good he most likely will (do you think he’s EVER looked at a statistical projection for even one of his players?), nor best how to use the players.
So… he thinks he really has decent players in Hughes and Nocioni. Not just okay players, but good, bonafide starters for most NBA teams. That said, he also recognizes their ages, and that they aren’t likely a part of the long-term plan w/ Rose (he would never rule them out, of course). So, that said, he’s willing to trade them. Since they’re good, though, he must play them a lot to show how good they really are. Besides, since they are good, the team will actually win while they’re playing, and once they’re gone sometime in February, a team of Thomas, Noah, Sefolosha, etc will have a winning record and take over from there. Because, you know, Gooden, Nocioni and Hughes will help provide that winning record.
This is all conjecture and alec-like speculative mind-reading, of course, and I don’t quite believe it yet. However, I’m starting to think it’s an actual possibility that Paxson thinks somewhere along these lines.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
That's funny dude.
Probably some truth. Yet, here’s another far fetched idea: Paxson strikes me as a guy the only played basketball because his brothers played also, and his father made it mandatory.
man up!
Again
With Hughes playing a string of solid bball, I don’t think it’ll hurt them at all. Everyone in the league is salivating over the 2010 free agent class. I don’t know/believe the Bulls will be major players in that with Deng locked up to a big contract and the pending future monstrous contract we’ll have to pay to Derrick Rose and likely a big contract for Ben Gordon….
I think though we might be able to get that very good C or PF we need by dangling Hughes and Hinrich this offseason….having almost $13M for a player who’s playing team bball and getting out of the Mike Brown induced system of chucking and watching Lebron, only to see it expire for the free agency of the century is a good thing to have. Hughes if he keeps this up will be a more valuable trade option than anyone else not named Derrick Rose, just given the circumstances. Larry’s not a godawful player, never was, he just wasn’t worth that contract….but having a more than credible player or even if you will average SG who can have the occasional above average game….and might be coming off a very productive season if this continues….
Not a bad asset to have. Gordon won’t be tradable if he’s on our club because of the BYC and contract extension beyond the free agent class….Deng won’t be tradable because the size of his contract. Hinrich might be tradable but only for the teams who feel they have all the pieces but not the PG and thus aren’t going to make a run for the free agency (maybe the Heat perhaps if they nab Boozer)…Tyrus and Noah won’t be more than throw in’s to make a deal more appealing….and Thabo probably has less value than Rodney Carney these days….
I'd still rather have two 2010-or-less contracts who can't play a lick
than Hughes, despite his recent ‘surge’.
Better yet, if the Bulls could swing to reduce 2009 payroll in a Hughes deal, it gets breathing room under the Luxury Tax for re-signing Gordon.
Sports2 is absolutely right: Hughes’ recent play is a gift, and there are several teams desperate for wing help of any kind. Sell high for once.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2008 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If the player is right sure...
But I don’t know if Kaman or worse yet Brad Miller are exactly those players (I don’t think we’d get Kaman for Hughes), I’d rather have Hughes marketability with the expiring contract next year.
Plus I still don’t think we’re selling Hughes high….he has a while to go to prove consistency before he gets over that Cleveland version of his game. His value is improving from Oct, but he’s nowhere near the peak, especially if this continues.
Dude... Hughes is a ticking time bomb of dissension and discord.
… If the Bulls screw this up and don’t have him gone at the earliest opportunity, the joke’s on them.
1. If the Bulls traded away all his competetion for PT, he’d get lazy and more selfish without a strong veteran team to keep him in line. And he’ll get hurt, because he always does. So you can’t keep him and trade the other guys.
2. If the Bulls don’t trade away the other guys, then Hughes will get mad and bitch. And ride the pine because he’s a worse player than the other guys.
It’s not a tenable situation. If the Bulls try to get greedy with it, they’ll fuck it up.
De gustibus non est disputandum
Agreed
There’s no timing the market with Hughes’s volatile stock. The second Pax gets a palatable offer, he needs to pounce.
by drew gooden's facial growth on Dec 10, 2008 1:31 PM CST up reply actions
I feel that
this is a real problem for the front office. they seem to never take a chance with anything. Hughes has caused problems and played badly, why can’t they at least try to deal him for whatever? Look at the knicks, they’re clearing out and their roster is a joke, but they aren’t worse than last year.
In fairness, I don't wan them to take a chance.
I’d be happy with them playing it safe on this one… safe would be getting rid of him the moment they can.
De gustibus non est disputandum
Hughes
Has no stock int he market just yet, I wouldn’t be opposed to trading him now for a nice piece, but I’d rather keep him for the crap we’ll be offered and watch his stock rise dramatically just by virtue of the free agent year that comes to fruition after next season.
Who knows, if he keeps this up too, he might have some value to boot, and that’s the nice bonus.
Hughes was misused in Cleveland which brought his game to a standstill and caused him to be selfish. If he buys in like he seems to be doing, he’ll be decent for most of this year.
and after next year
his contract will be worth half of what we will need to sign Bosh!
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on Dec 10, 2008 4:50 PM CST up reply actions
no, give me the crap
Hughes is worse than crap, he’s something that will actively hurt.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2008 4:54 PM CST up reply actions
though this is under the premise
that he won’t continue to play like this. I’m fairly confident in that.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2008 4:55 PM CST up reply actions
How do we know that though?
Chris Paul certainly made Tyson Chandler look good on offense, maybe Rose will have that effect on Hughes.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 10, 2008 4:56 PM CST up reply actions
Chandler was a young, undeveloped player
that needed a new situation.
Hughes is an old dog that won’t be learning any more new tricks.
by drew gooden's facial growth on Dec 10, 2008 5:11 PM CST up reply actions
You are probably right...
But maybe… Just… Maybe… If we all clap our hands and believe…
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 10, 2008 5:15 PM CST up reply actions
If Chandler wanter to take the ball and take wild shots, then..
..Chris Paul would not have been able to make him better. I don’t see Hughes cutting in the paint or trying to set picks to rose.. He just waits outside the arc and everytime he touches the ball, he takes his shot… No way this is gonna improve..
Larry’s percentage is terrific right now, but this physically can’t last for ever.. I rather see it sink before Christmas…
So, Pax, give your fans and your players a nice present… wrap Larry in a nice Christmas box and send him away! :-)
Yeah
But of late, Hughes is PASSING the ball…..strangely after he was talked to by VDN and Paxson….maybe they said look Larry we need you to play basketball for the team or you will not play a lick of time and Jerry won’t buy you out.
Well I'm not
He’s really PASSING the ball….something he just hasn’t done in years. I don’t think that’ll just go away. I think he knows if it becomes Larry un-legend time everytime he’s out there, he’ll be benched for Thabo.
Plus it seems like Larry’s having some fun out there…..which is good because he’s always been talented.
I’d rather have him this year, build up the value and trade for something that might help us (Larry and x) for a really good player as Larry’s contract will be as valuable to a club really wanting a ticket spark next year as many of the all star caliber players (not superstars) in this league.
The problem is that Hughes cannot keep this up
Obviously if he could, his value would continue to rise, but I think there is a much better chance he gets worse from here. His improvement is all based on shooting precentage. He has never shot this well in his life, his TS% has never been close to what it is now. Larry didn’t suddenly learn how to shoot, and he didn’t go back to driving to the basket- the only way that this could be sustainable. The majority of his improvement is a statistical anomaly. He just isn’t this good a spot up shooter.
by JeffD on Dec 10, 2008 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
he's never played with a center like Aaron Gray
…and a PG like Derrick Rose.
We need marketing people. Get cracking Hudsucker Industries!
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 10, 2008 2:30 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Reoccuring nightmare
This Thomas playing time thing is starting to make me insane. After last season, I hoped we would finally find out what we have in Thomas, but doesn’t look like it. He’ll get 6 minutes here and there, get 20 minutes one night and look good and then get benched again. Forget it! If you’re not going to use him, trade him to another team. A team that’ll be smart enough to give him an opportunity and find out what they’ve got.
"Wait, just let me listen." - Scottie Pippen
This nightmare is beginning to resemble the movie "Groundhog Day."
As soon as Tyrus shows some potential, he is nailed to the bench again by our less than stellar coaching staff. If his punishment is being meted out for something behind the scenes, than this makes sense. Otherwise, it is a travesty which has to weaken the confidence of anyone who has been on a yo-yo like he has for the past 2 seasons. If he does eventually escape and turn out to be as good as some of us fantasize he could be with proper nurturing, than Paxson should be tarred and feathered (figuratively, of course), unless we can get Brad Miller for Nocioni or Hughes.
Matt’s analysis of VDN’s coaching decisions is 100% right on, which is depressing if he is going to remain stubborn and insist on overplaying his veterans to compensate for his own inadequacies.
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
by Tyrusmancrush on Dec 10, 2008 4:59 PM CST up reply actions
Glad to see you're hitting some of the right chords...
“Until the end of the game, there seemed to be little to no strategy at all.”
Yes, and that’s true of virtually every game, underscoring how lost VDN is. It’s also apparent in that he rarely calls ‘timely’ time outs, and the plays he designs out of time outs almost never succeed.
" How long is it going to take before the players realize that passing the ball to teammates makes it easier to score and wears out the defense"
Again, that’s a reflection of poor coaching. They should be reminded of that – and many other basics – on a regular basis, and in fact should be REQUIRED to execute that way.
The embarrassing offensive pattern which the Bulls show night and and night out – Rose or Gordon dribbling around the top of the key with (often ineffective) picks set for them – is yet another reflection of VDN’s lack of imagination and insight.
It’s painfully obvious that the Bulls will have little chance of competing with good teams if they continue to rely on outside shooting and one-on-one nonsense, yet VDN clearly makes no serious effort to get them to aggressively attack the paint.
Also, as good as Rose is, he continues to make basic errors which a halfway decent coach would have corrected by now. DON’T pick up the dribble, pause, and then pass. That spells TURNOVERS. DON’T make long, cross-court passes unless someone is wide open. Etc.
I mean, c’mon – Duhon outplayed him last night. And why was that? Largely because VDN wasn’t bright enough to tell Rose early on that he should back off CD, let him beat you with jumpers, but don’t let him beat you off the dribble and get to the basket. Duhon did that THROUGHOUT the night, and while Rose should have figured it out himself, he’s a 20yo rookie, and the coach should have pressed the obvious point.
I could go on, but my hand is getting tired, and Paxson’s not listening to me anyway…
by badnewsintennisshoes on Dec 10, 2008 9:15 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Amen
I’ll still give Vinny “Bada Bing” or “The Hair” or VDN or whatever else you want to call him, until the end of December before I start to really get critical of him, however he’s not showing good signs.
I was at last night’s game and I was shocked when he didn’t make any personnel changes after a time out where some of our guys were obviously not performing/running bad plays etc. You’ve already hit most of my complaints, but one other thing for those of you who get to go to the games…. Watch the coaches in the time outs. They huddle together and discuss strategy for about 75-90% of the time and then MAYBE they’ll talk to the players for a second. They did this for B***** last year too… I don’t like it.
There just doesn’t seem to be much instruction going on. Red Auerbach was once asked once about what plays he draws up during the game. His response was he didn’t have time to do that so he had the players prepare in practice to run certain plays which he would call during the time outs and shot out to the players. VDN is no Red Auerback, but he could learn a thing or two from history and be more prepared for the games. By the way, I can’t recall the last time I heard him shout a play out from the sidelines.
He still has a month or two to learn in my book, but by the January it would be nice to see some sings of coaching improvement.
Harris? Bickerstaff?
What the hell were they doing?
Shouldn’t they be telling Rose all that stuff?? Shouldn’t they be backing up VDN??
So far I don’t know what Del Negro is really doing, or the assistants…
As poor as we played……hard to believe we’re 10-11.
I know, mostly it’s because of Rose but still……
Hughes yes, Noc no
The persistency of VDN playing Noc, especially on the fourth quarter, is driving me crazy. I understand that Noc can hit some 3pointers, but what’s the point of having him on the game when:
1- he’s missing a lot of open shots, like yesterday (I think he only made one or two, despite one of them actually allowed us to cut the Knicks lead to 2)
2- he’s struggling a lot on offense, having troubles going to the rim, making silly fouls and giving the ball away
3- he’s not defending well, letting his guy open or letting his guy escape and go directly to the rim
4 – he keeps complaining with the referees, when we know that acting like that can only make them call more fouls on you
Noc was the first player to learn how to play with Rose, but he seems to be regressing. I think VDN is trying to restore Noc confidence, giving him minutes, but is not keeping him on the court when he’s sucking that VDN is going to do that. Right now, I prefer trading Noc and have Hughes coming of the bench. At least, Hughes is playing a lot better and, actually, helping us getting some wins – if he keeps playing like this, my hate for him might disappear a little
http://comunidadebulleana.blogspot.com/ - Comunidade Bulleana (O blog dos Bulls em Portugal)
I prefer trading Nocioni too...
but that’s just to get rid of his terrible contract.
Honestly, I don’t mind Larry’s contract at all. If we can trade him, cool, if we can’t, fine. Let him expire.
But Nocioni’s contract is brutal at this point. By far the worst on the team.
I was
stumped by the DNP-CD for Tyrus THomas, as yesterday’s game seemed a perfect Tyrus matchup game to boot. Perhaps he’s acting up, akin to last year’s not showing up for practice and not calling….because I don’t know what happened after a nice stretch of games to get 5 minutes and a DNP….
Really with our gluttony of guards, the lack of pt for Thabo isn’t as big of a concern…..once Thabo learns to shoot, I’ll feel differently, but him being unable to shoot and having a penchant for godawful turnovers….with our glut of guards he’s the odd man out….
I was disappointed in the lack of effort to get a guy on Al Harrington. I don’t know who was his main cover, but I would have rather seen Quentin Richardson get open shots than the constant shots of Harrington.
Al kept the Knicks int he game.
This is a game that by all accounts we probably should have LOST….the Knicks were getting countless wide open 3 attempts, especially early in the game, and had they hit 3-4 more of those, they would have won this one.
Chris Duhon played good, but there were those glimpses of the reasons why we hated Duhon, which was great to see (the horribly ill advised 3 pters in the 4th, the stupid drive to the rim with the more athletic Derrick Rose guarding him one on one (that lead to a game changing block/stop), the silly turnovers downt he stretch. He looked solid though for stretches, much as he did for us in the past….. but a good Duhon game, still I’m glad to see him gone as it was very irritating seeing all the Duhon minutes over the infinitely better Ben Gordon….
Drew made some silly travelling turnovers (I think he had 3 of them) which was a shame because as predicted he had a 22 and 16 (I think I thought 20 and 14) game….a good, but not great game, and I wonder if he was covering Al Harrington…?
D’Antoni’s system is a blast, I think it would have worked wonders with our guards, even last year’s guards of Gordon-Hinrich-Hughes (pre #1 draft pick), all can be good shooters.
Hope folks are starting to come around on Larry un-legend. He’s been solid for us of late and deserves a few kudos for playing team basketball. He’s quickly moving into top 6th man categories in my books….
We have a WAYS to go to be consistent. Rose wasn’t aggressive enough yesterday especially early in the game. Hopefully D’Antoni’s system of attacking Rose with the bigger guys when Rose is on D, will help Derrick see things in the films of what he can do to get out of those situations. I do think finally VDN and crew made several good adjustments, it was a shame though that it took a quarter and a half (2nd and half the 3rd) to start the process of adjusting, but then again D’Antoni’s a wizard for a reason.
We played well in the 4th quarter and saved the game….
An entertaining game, I don’t think anyone played their best bball of the year (Gooden was good offensively but the TOs and D keep him from that mark)….
I hope we keep it up with Memphis and get to .500.
Hughes, Gordon, and Nocioni...
Cannot be on the court at the same time. That’s just way too many quick, contested jump shots for my taste. Somebody needs to sit these guys down and explain to them that Derrick Rose is already their best player. Most importantly, Derrick Rose needs to understand that not only is he their best player but he is already one of the better players in this league as a rookie. He tried way too hard to get everyone involved through much of the game. I live in Jersey and watched the Knicks broadcast. Clyde Frazier pointed it out as well that he averages 18 a game but seems to only be looking to distribute. I know he is unselfish, which is great, but when you play with a group like this, you have to be a little more selfish sometimes. VDN should be encouraging him to have the ball at all times.
Ben Gordon
played a poorish game, and it’s not like other team’s are often stopping the Knicks pace….if they could shoot they’d be pretty good.
Nocioni’s still not playing how he can play and has played in the past. Larry’s doing a good job of late and his D’s been decent to boot.
Frustrating to watch - except the final score
Watching the Bulls play basketball is a painful experience. The only time this year I was excited about how we played was the Philly road game where we shared the ball, played good D and blew Philly away. We seem to have an ability to highlight players’ weaknesses not their strengths. VDN’s “system” is not apparent except to give the ball to Rose and pray. Which is way better than not giving the ball to Rose. Our game plan is to jack up as many jump shots as we can. This is despite having success going inside. That being said winning ugly is better than losing pretty.
No one's upset w/ Deng's play from last night, right?
Just wanna make sure since he’ll probably never have a good game again.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
he played fine
would have liked to have seen him hit the boards a little better, but he got a steal, had 2 blocks, and 5 rebs to go with his 16 points. 16 shots is too many for 16 points, but overall it was a decent game.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 10, 2008 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
16 points on 16 shots is pretty good.
That equates to 50 percent shooting, always good for a perimeter player.
"Rest satisified with doing well and leave others to talk of you as they please"
hasn't he played well the last 5 games or so
it seems to me whatever early season funk he had is over.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 10, 2008 11:18 AM CST up reply actions
Pretty sure he's being sarcastic
In that glorious way tyger can.
What do you see in a 14 ppg with no jumper that makes one think he will be better than a 26ppg\ 12rpg guy? Is there some kind of magic formula that tells you 14 > 26??
by Dabullsfan on Jul 1, 2008 10:19 AM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 10, 2008 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah
I thought Deng was active, played better than he has been D, grabbed some important boards, and was effective on offense.
He didn’t wow me with his play, but was the old typical Deng (do a bit of everything well, do nothing really in the ooohh wow great).
Actually
There were a number of plays where Deng used his quickness and long reach to finish impressively near the basket.
"Derrick Rose is like a $500,000 Maybach parked in the driveway of a $200,000 house in the middle of nowhere" - Bill Simmons
by RogersPark Kris on Dec 10, 2008 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
A couple of years ago
People were calling Deng one of the best finishers in the game. There’s no reason he can’t regain that form once he starts clicking with Rose.
by drew gooden's facial growth on Dec 10, 2008 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
Because he was one of the best cutters
That movement without the ball seems to be coming back, albeit slowly. He just needs to learn how to keep that aggressiveness within the context of the offense. He’s a great cog in the wheel because he’s not stupid and won’t try to win a game by himself, his recent games show me he’s getting more comfortable with Rose.
What do you see in a 14 ppg with no jumper that makes one think he will be better than a 26ppg\ 12rpg guy? Is there some kind of magic formula that tells you 14 > 26??
by Dabullsfan on Jul 1, 2008 10:19 AM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 10, 2008 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
Yep
Deng isn’t all that athletic. He needs to get a full head of steam going so his length and coordination can lead to easy buckets.
by drew gooden's facial growth on Dec 10, 2008 1:39 PM CST up reply actions
Deng is coming back around
Two seasons ago he was called ,by many, one of the best in the league at moving without the ball. The last year and a half he has had several injuries that have literally slowed him down. Two straight summers of international play haven’t helped the healing process.
I don’t think he is back to 100%, but he will be soon. I would hate to see him go. He plays above average defense, when healthy. He is not a selfish player and will very rarely make dumb mistakes with the ball.
One more thing that is overlooked is his poularity among the league with other players. Many superstars would like playing alongside Deng. The Kobe trade rumors never amounted to anything last year, but Kobe did say that if any trade involved Deng that he would not go. I believe having him here is another incentive to bringing in a star in 2010.
His contract really isn’t out of line for how he has played throughout his career. He is off to a slow start this year and he is coming back around.
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on Dec 10, 2008 1:46 PM CST up reply actions
Pretty good analysis
However, i think that pulling Gray was the right move. He can’t defend the pick and roll, especially if the guy is going to pop out and shoot 3s. I don’t think its the same thing as pulling sefo, because i think VDN trusts Gray more, for whatever that is worth.
Also, we may be 11 deep, but you can’t play 11 guys. I think its better to stick to an 8 man rotation. Right now Thomas and Noah are competing for minutes. I’d rather Noc not play but it is hard to trade the 11th man. The play of Hughes is keeping Sefolosha on the bench. Right now our bench is Hughes, Nocioni, Thomas/Noah. If Nocioni ever gets moved to the bench or traded, it would open up time for Tyrus and Noah guys.
The depth chart right now seems to be
Rose/Hughes/Gordon
Gordon/Hughes
Deng/Hughes/Noc
Gooden/Noc/Deng
Gray/Gooden/Noah
And I totally agree Rose has to be more aggressive. But its hard because Hughes and Gordon handle the ball so much, and they have done so every year of their careers. Those guys aren’t use to playing with point guards who dominate the ball handling responsibilities. In the long run, I don’t see either being a good fit with Rose.
Right now we just have a mismatched team. Paxson needs to trade some guys and gets guys who better fit around Rose. I think that will be the story until Pax makes a move. I don’t believe we will finish the season with Hughes, Gordon, Nocioni and Hinrich on this team. A couple of those guys have to go, and Pax knows (or should know) it.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 10, 2008 11:32 AM CST reply actions
I missed the open thread last night and the beginning of the game...
did anyone ever give a reason for Tyrus not playing at all? Was he a DNP? If so, why? I hope VDN isn’t trying a new “tough guy” approach with Tyrus because Skiles/____ both tried that and all it does is make TT bring out the “poor me” attitude that leaves him sulking on the bench.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
why even ask anymore
the answer is going to be ‘matchups’.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2008 1:12 PM CST up reply actions
I think Bagaric junior Aaron Gray needs to be parked on the bench for good
He get’s beat down the floor by every big man because he is waddles. Provides marginal presence defensively, and never truly finishes the way he should with his size, hesitates and gets stuffed. Tyrus should be playing more than gray especially against the knicks doesn’t make sense, tyrus had 14 and 13 recently, mullet del negro is a marginal coach, needs to be more forceful on telling gordon to move the rock and tell d rose to penetrate and be more assertive on offense, to pressure the defenses.
Aaron Gray isn't great...
But to say he should be on the bench for good is just silly. I’ve said it myself in the past, but looking at what we have at the 5 is just pathetic.
Gray plays WAY too many minutes, but he’s a large (IE: Huge) body with 6 fouls to give and can play a few posessions in a half court set (IE: against slower teams that feature large centers like Shaq). Basically he should be used as a 2nd or 3rd string center to come in and change the dynamic of our team on both ends of the floor… For one or two posessions a qtr at most.
I think he should playing about 10 minutes a game, but that’s only if we get a real center. With what we have at the 5 now I can’t see any kind of rotation that works every night.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 10, 2008 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
Noc comments
I haven’t really watched much Bulls bball this year but the one thing that surprised me last night is that every time Noc got open at 3pt line it seemed that someone passed him the ball, including passes from BG and Larry. Noc finished 1-5 so this wasn’t actually a good thing, especially considering I remember them being open looks. I guess the thing I noted is that despite the Noc hate and his “chucker” rep with some Bulls fans his teammates are still passing it to him for 3pt shots.
If he hits those shots thats great and he becomes useful as a PF who can stretch the floor but you can’t have a PF shooting 1-5 who is not good rebounder or defender and expect to W consistantly. I was always Noc fan but I think they would have been better off with Tyrus with all those mins, especially with the uptempo game where Tyrus can guard multiple positions and Off rebound (Noah did good job of this). The could have gotten Noc “shooting” from other players and improved the D and rebounding by playing Tyrus or Noah in Noc mins at PF.
by NY Chicago Fan on Dec 10, 2008 11:57 AM CST reply actions
BG comment
BG seems to still have trouble trying to dribble create at top of key. At end of qrts it was frustrating watching Duhon do a better job with last sec shots then BG. If Rose is not in the game, Bulls should run different play, why continue to let BG dribble out the clock. If all you are going to get is BG jump shot, couldn’t you do that within different play with options where he isn’t under so much pressure
by NY Chicago Fan on Dec 10, 2008 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
BG is one of the best shooters in the league
But, for the love of god take the ball out of his hands and set a screen for him! Stop letting him dribble out the clock.
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on Dec 10, 2008 1:50 PM CST up reply actions
with all the consideration for bad comments on Thabo,
Sefo does grab defensive rebounds, and if there is no fastbreak opportunities, STAIGHT looks for D Rose to get him the ball. He’s not playing that “I can bring the ball up too” stuff that BG and Larry do so often..
Doesn’t it make you go nuts when you watch Gordon grab a rebound, D Rose call for the ball but BG raising his hand in the air to call a play – or, I should say, call for an Iso so he can pull up a contested shot?
Come on… Yes Thabo has had a bad % shooting and some stupid TO, but he plays wisely and commits to letting D Rose run the show and create plays… And that is exactely what Chicago needs..
Didn't watch the game
I’m shocked Tyrus got no time against such a small frontcourt, and not surprised at all they barely beat a Knicks team that plays 0 defense and allowed Duhon to almost notch a triple-double. Fuck Vinny and his snake-oil salesman routine, Aaron Gray against the Knicks?? Really?? REALLY???
What do you see in a 14 ppg with no jumper that makes one think he will be better than a 26ppg\ 12rpg guy? Is there some kind of magic formula that tells you 14 > 26??
by Dabullsfan on Jul 1, 2008 10:19 AM CDT actions actions 0 recs
Did I miss something?
When did Aaron Gray lose them the game? He did fine out there. Was he a mismatch, yes. But a mismatch works both way. He had 6 points in 10 minutes which is better than he has done lately. It also allows gooden to play against the other teams second biggest player which seems to help his offensive numbers.
The truth is there aren’t enough minutes available right now. The other day Noah got the shaft, today it’s Tyrus. That’s going to happen. As long as the team is winning I don’t expect to see that changing.
I think the focus should be on how the offense is coming together. Other than Gooden (who has become frustrating as he misses wide open cutters), it does seem like guys are looking to make the extra pass, a big step up from last year/month. The fact Rose didn’t have to score most of the game is refreshing.
Mismatches
As a coach you want to force the other team to adjust to your lineup not the other way around. Gray scored over Lee on the first play of the game. He has trouble chasing Lee on defense, but never got another play run for him on offense. They should have forced the Knicks to adjust. As pointed out, they finally did that with Gooden at the end.
My other major gripe with coaching is letting Gordon isolate at the end of quarters while the other four players stand on the sidelines. This has been proven NOT to work. What is his percentage scoring on these plays? It also sends the message that this is our best way to score encouraging more bad shots.
by El Toro de Goro on Dec 10, 2008 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
I really hated watching this game
I came in asking “how did the Knicks beat the Pistons?” Oh right, rebounding. But it was with the same group of players they threw out there against us. OK. Just make shots and the D’Antoni system will defeat itself. This made it painful.
As I’m watching, all I keep writing down is that if the Knicks rebound they’re kicking our ass. If the Knicks make some shots they’re kicking our ass. If the Knicks come up with these loose balls they’re kicking our ass.
Then Gray got a dunk. Then Noah got a dunk. And both were off good passing. But it’s against the Knicks. They’re defense makes the Suns looks like the Steelers’ Iron Curtain.
I did like Noah feeding off his own energy though. He seemed much more active, particularly after getting a stop. His height should have allowed many more opportunities, but alas Vinny only played him 19 minutes.
“Every Other Game” Gooden showed up last night. Cool. We’ll miss him for the Memphis game.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
Great point about Noah
I think it was his best game this year. If he could do that every game I think you’d see him 30 minutes a night.
Did anyone catch VDN
Stomping his feet, leaning onto the court and yelling at QRich as he took the three with about 30 seconds left right in frong of him. They showed it on a replay too. How embarassing to have your coach doing that.
was he maybe
yelling at our guys to run out and contest the shot? No sarcasm here, I didn’t see it – just wondering if that’s a possibility.
No
he was attempting to scare the shooter. Very blatantly. It seems like he should have gotten a technical or something.
Definitely bush league
"Derrick Rose is like a $500,000 Maybach parked in the driveway of a $200,000 house in the middle of nowhere" - Bill Simmons
by RogersPark Kris on Dec 10, 2008 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
Didn't
Skiles taunt Antoinne Walker into almost a fight 2 years ago….
I think that happens more than you’d think
I at least can understand that, there is some initiation on both sides.
but to basically step onto the court in a childish move to harass a shooter. I’ve seen bench players do it before and it bugged me. But I’ve never seen a coach do it. Watching the replay shows you just how pathetic it was IMO.
I don’t dislike VDN either. I just couldn’t believe he did that.
http://www.blogabull.com/2008/12/9/688077/open-game-thread-overflow#10591699
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith
Such mixed feelings about last night
Wanted the win but the lose would have made VDN look really terrible.
But instead, he gets the win and gets away with some of the worst coaching I’ve ever seen
You want him to look terrible?
Sheesh, the venom at this website has reached epic proportions.
Ulterior motives maybe?
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 10, 2008 3:35 PM CST up reply actions
Just to clarify...
VDN is not a great coach right out of the gate, nobody thought he would be, but to say that he has a steep learning curve is an understatement. The team is almost .500 and Derrick Rose is developing into the franchise player we need him to be. Do I think VDN will be the coach when this team is finally a legit title contender down the road… Of course not, nobody does… But to hope he “looks terrible” only implies that you want him fired, to which I urge you to consider how that worked out last year.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 10, 2008 3:48 PM CST up reply actions
To clarify my point . . .
The Bulls are competitive in a league full of average or below average teams. I used to defend VDN as much as anyone here but this shit is ridiculous.
So they had one game where they looked amazing against Phili? What else makes you smile about this year besides Derrick Rose?
The thing that really irks me is that I keep thinking that this season is going to be about seeing who goes and who stays after the year. An audition to see who blends in with Derrick and who doesn’t.
The main guys who I think would be playing would be guys like Tyrus, Thabo and Joakim.
Not guys who have no future with this team whatsoever.
And I don’t buy the “Win Now” attitude . . .
I can handle the losing as long as we see what works and what doesn’t.
This is Boylan all over again. As Matt said before, I can’t be mad at him for finally starting Gordon and letting Rose do whatever he wants or even sticking with Deng no matter how much he struggled but the development of our youth was the strong selling point of this year for me.
Gray, Hughes and Gooden have no developing left in them.
With that being said, the Bulls are not developing much
Noah had a chance to come in and play this year...
So did TT. For whatever reason it didn’t work out. We can debate about why until the cows come home, but that doesn’t mean we need to find a new coach.
You don’t like VDN, I get it, lucky for you he probably won’t be around for too long anyway. I can tell you this though, if you want to really screw with Rose’s development, watch what happens when we get a new coach (mid-season) and we force our rookie to learn a new system mid stride… It won’t be pretty.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 10, 2008 4:45 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
didnt' work out for 6 games
Vinny failed that test as much as the players.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2008 4:55 PM CST up reply actions
Do you really want him gone?
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 10, 2008 4:56 PM CST up reply actions
hey jerkface
read my post from a couple days ago.
I’m not disappointed to the point to where he needs to be fired, or that his hiring was a mistake.
He’s doing a bad job so far, specifically in the aspects he emphasized when he was hired. But, he shouldn’t be fired 20 games in just like Thomas/Noah shouldn’t have been given up on 6 games in.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2008 4:58 PM CST up reply actions
lol...
I did read your post, but you are the one who chose to come and weigh in on this part of the thread… Jerkface :)
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 10, 2008 5:01 PM CST up reply actions
well you're content with how it's gone so far
and I disagree.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2008 5:02 PM CST up reply actions
and
saying that he wanted Vinny to look bad isn’t the same as wanting him fired. It could be that he wants his tactics to look bad so he changes them.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2008 5:03 PM CST up reply actions
Even when they work.
IE: we win.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 10, 2008 5:04 PM CST up reply actions
Don't bother responding...
I already know what you will say…
TT and Noah are burning up on the bench. It’s the apocolypse!
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 10, 2008 5:05 PM CST up reply actions
I shouldn't bother
as it’d take some grasp of nuance to entertain the possibility that eeking out home wins against the Knicks and Wizards doesn’t quite qualify as ‘working’
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2008 5:18 PM CST up reply actions
Wins are all fine and dandy
But if the team doesn’t look good in the process, then honestly what’s the point? This isn’t a laughingstock franchise with no future like the Warriors or Thunder, a little progress, as in developing the key young talent, would be nice. And honestly, if they’re just not very good (the coaching staff and Paxson know far better if there really is a future for Thomas and Noah on this team), then fucking trade them already. Get Kaman, or an expiring contract, or Brad Miller, or whatever. But don’t bench Noah one day, Thomas the next, then keep saying you’re trying to “develop players.”
What do you see in a 14 ppg with no jumper that makes one think he will be better than a 26ppg\ 12rpg guy? Is there some kind of magic formula that tells you 14 > 26??
by Dabullsfan on Jul 1, 2008 10:19 AM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 10, 2008 5:56 PM CST up reply actions
This team needs headbands. And armbands. And a racing stripe.
Things that’ll make it loog good, you know? :)
De gustibus non est disputandum
More tattoos
What do you see in a 14 ppg with no jumper that makes one think he will be better than a 26ppg\ 12rpg guy? Is there some kind of magic formula that tells you 14 > 26??
by Dabullsfan on Jul 1, 2008 10:19 AM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 10, 2008 7:16 PM CST up reply actions
Thank you for clarifying
There is no coach out there right now that I would truly think could turn this ship around so fast which is why I was down to give Vinny a shot.
But he apparently was hired with the idea that our young players could develop under him.
This doesn’t seem to be working so far.
No need to fire him just now but how about sticking to the regime
That Flip Saunders fellow doesn't look like a total idiot
He’s no Mike D’Antoni though
De gustibus non est disputandum
Well
He’s doing a fine job working to develop our main young player.
Noah and Thomas need to start preparing like pro’s….
Then you for you the glass is half empty...
And once again we find ourselves at an impasse.
Merry Christmas Matt.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 10, 2008 5:04 PM CST up reply actions
yeah
I forgot that I already added ‘coaching’ to the things I can’t discuss with you. Well, fool me twice…
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2008 5:19 PM CST up reply actions
Who in here
needs a hug?
"If there’s any haters in here right now that don’t have nobody to hate on, feel free to hate on me." - A.P.N.S.
What?
I hate the Aaron Gray hate on this board.
The juvenile name calling makes no sense to me. Aaron Gray works hard and does his job to the best of his abilities… some people hate that the Bulls don’t have a better front court rotation, or that Gray plays instead of Noah… but, none of that is his fault.
And then seriously, I realize that Aaron Gray is slow, but people talk about Tyrus an Noah’s need to develop, and the fail to mention that Gray is in his second year in the league as well. He won’t get fast, but he can develop a better post game, learn not to jump at shot fakes, and learn better defensive rotations. And that can certainly help this team.
Oh c'mon... it was a joke
I’m far from a big Aaron Gray hater even. It’s pretty rare you hear me say anything bad about him. But I do wish he’d lose another 25lbs.
De gustibus non est disputandum
I know it's a joke...
The Aaron Gray hate certainly doesn’t stem from you. It gets thrown around a lot here. He lost a lot of weight this offseason, I assume he will continue to get in better shape.
There are a lot of comedians and critics on this blog, and often, I feel like the victims bring a bit of it on themselves (Larry Hughes doesn’t care about winning, Ben Gordon thinks he should be highest paid) But I don’t think Gray deserves it at all, and I am fairly pleased with his progress.
I don't like his floppy hair
and shit-eating grin.
Does that make me a shallow fan?
by drew gooden's facial growth on Dec 10, 2008 8:37 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well...
It makes you kind of a dick ;-)
When you get your cosmetology license you should send a few business cards to the locker room…
Not everybody can have a bad-ass beard like Drew Gooden.
if only he had more ability.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2008 7:46 PM CST up reply actions
Do you think
we could put Gray’s brain in TT’s body? LOL
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on Dec 10, 2008 9:49 PM CST up reply actions
He would be the white Diesel!
It’s frustrating to watch Gray play next to guys like TT. You can see how hard Gray works on his game and pays attention to what is going on on the court. He seems to really love to play basketball. He is just physically limited. If he had the athleticism of Noah or TT the guy would be destined to be a superstar. Gray is an NBA caliber player, but he will probably never be more than a reliable back up. Don’ thate on the guy for coaches misusing him.
If Noah or TT had his heart they would already be all stars.
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on Dec 11, 2008 10:19 AM CST up reply actions
Dude wasn't he a 2nd round pick..
It’s not his fault, the other two lottery player bigs aren’t good enough to keep Gray buried on the bench where he would be on most other teams.
man up!
exactly...
That’s why I don’t get that people bitch about Gray… Three coaches have come and gone… and Gray still plays, there must be something they like about his game.
If he did
drop another 25lbs though he MIGHT be more than a 5-10 MPG backup center….
He does have a nice post game, but is just too friggin slow on D and especially transition D to do too much, and his slowness also effects his overall offensive game.
Starting Gordon, letting Rose have freedom on the court
and letting Deng play his way back into the offense are GOOD things VdN has done.
by Granny Waiters on Dec 10, 2008 10:14 PM CST up reply actions
If he's not going to be here, what's the point of him?
Was it to develop players? Is he the only one who could develop Rose? He’s not developing anyone else so far. Oh, except Aaron Gray I guess.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
"To clarify..."
I don’t think anyone expected him to be a good coach in the X’s and O’s of a game. In fact, that would be the exact reason for the hopeful and optimistic hirings of Bickerstaff and Harris. Duh. what most of us did expect is some sort of plan. That doesn’t exist.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Then you should complain about...
Until he’s fired… Because that will probably work out great!
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 10, 2008 4:36 PM CST up reply actions
complaining's encouraged
don’t be Sue-esque and tell us next that we’re just on the internet and have no say in the matter.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2008 4:56 PM CST up reply actions
Listen, I realize why people come here...
I’m here for the same reason, but we know what happened when Skiles was fired. I’m just trying to remind him of “he who shall remain unnamed”.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 10, 2008 4:58 PM CST up reply actions
well, just because a replacement could be worse
means nothing.
Shoulda hired Flip. Or at least interviewed him.
Tyger’s correct in that we should expect VDN to be bad in some aspects of coaching, but in exchange he was supposed to place more of an emphasis on development. ‘new vibe’, all that crap Pax said. Right now there’s little benefit to Vinny’s inexperience besides being cheap.
Heck they coulda hired Larry Brown if we wanted to see small-ball and rely on ‘right way’ guys.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2008 5:01 PM CST up reply actions
I guess I just think he is developing our young talent...
Derrick Rose.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 10, 2008 5:06 PM CST up reply actions
Which anyone could say, "Here's the ball, get out of the way."
Developing Rose shouldn’t be the sole purpose. A big one, yes, but I’d expect an NBA head coach (or three, actually) to do more than that.
here’s the secret: the more players they have that they can develop and turn into “legitimate” players, the few they have to go get later.
Having Rose is great, but starting over from absolute scratch in 2010 is the bare minimum of expectations… and would have been a failure for Del Negro and Paxson.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
VDN does seem to have a plan, you just don't agree with it.
He seems to have settled on a rotation with Noah/TT fighting it out for the last spot. He definitely favors the veterans. I guess in the end it’s not a big surprise. Veterans are what win games in the NBA and veterans are what keeps the locker room happy. I think after the disaster of last year that is VDNs #1 goal.
Not saying I agree with it necessarily, but it produced a win the last two games at least.
What last spot, though?
“last” as in ninth man? “last” as in guy who comes in after Nocioni, Gray and Gooden.. and even Hughes?
You’re right, I don’t agree with that plan at all. It’s so god-awful horribly ridiculously stupid that I didn’t even think of it.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Last spot in an 8 man rotation
It seems he has Rose, Gordon, Hughes, Noc, Deng, Gooden. Then more likely, TT, Noah, and Gray fight over 30-40 mpg. I know you don’t like it. I can’t say I like it. But it is a plan. And I would assume they might win more games short term with that strategy.
Glad you didn't take offense.
I didn’t mean that last line to be, but when i thought of it, I could see how some might. Then I wasn’t around a computer to explain myself.
Yeah, I don’t like it. It’s stupid. It’s a career-starting lineup, not a franchise-building one. Someone made the comment that Del Negro is coaching right now for his entire future career. If he starts Thomas and Noah and plays them a lot, and they bust and the team wins < 30 games, he’s screwed. Absolutely dicked.
However, if he hovers around .500 winning record for two years, even if he gets fired, he’ll be able to explain away: I had two absolute idiots, a me-first SG, a money-hungry SG, a cheap owner, etc. He’ll get another shot.
This is why it’s ultimately on Paxson:
A) for drafting “absolute idiots”
B) not forcing Boylan to play them more last year to have a better idea of their talent
C) hiring a guy who will want to win more than develop young talent
D) not forcing Del Negro’s hand to do what is best for the franchise
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Agreed
especially point B.
Although C and D remain in question. I know it’s easy to say now in light of the latest articles, but this could be just a short term benching to force the players hands in working harder. If he can get them to improve while watching Noc suffer, it will be easier to bench him as the season moves on.
At least that’s my optomistic view of things. Gotta stay positive!
Which is weird coz I thought VDN had Noce at the 10th spot the last 10 games.
DRose, Gordon, Deng, Gooden, Noah.
Hughes, Hunter, TT, Gray, Noce (with Noce last off the bench)
Thabo and Simmons as bench guys.
After using Hunter a lot the first 3 games Hunter was here, he seemed to have joined Thabo in the MIA list.
But I would have been thrilled with Flip...
I put that blame on Pax.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 10, 2008 5:07 PM CST up reply actions
JR likes cheap
as long as the seats in the United Center are filled.
by Granny Waiters on Dec 10, 2008 10:29 PM CST up reply actions
Either Harris or Bickerstaff
would be a much better coach than B***** was.
Heck, we could have a “College of Coaches” with a BaB member chosen at random for each game and be better than B*****.
by Granny Waiters on Dec 10, 2008 10:27 PM CST up reply actions
seriously
there should be a pool of 82 names from Blog a Bull and each person should get to coach one game. It’d probably be ugly…but it’d be fun :)
by NormVanBeer on Dec 10, 2008 10:32 PM CST up reply actions
O.K. then...
By that rationale we should fire every coach we hire after 20 games if it doesn’t look like it’s working out… I would hate to work for you.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 10, 2008 4:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Firing him for the sake of firing him probably wouldn't be smart
But if we could pick up Eddie Jordan, I wouldn’t mind seeing VDN go. In fact, I’d probably celebrate it.
by drew gooden's facial growth on Dec 10, 2008 4:45 PM CST up reply actions
I would love to have Eddie Jordan
but 20 games for the guys isn’t fair. He deserves 2 years minimum. I could probably argue for more. He isn’t trashing the team, just doesn’t seem to excited about developing the young bigs.
The dollar amount on his contract
is the only consideration he deserves. If we can upgrade at any position (and do it relatively cheaply), why not pull the trigger?
by drew gooden's facial growth on Dec 10, 2008 8:41 PM CST up reply actions
Because he's a developing coach
much like a developing player. I’m surprised all the people hating VDN for not playing the young guys enough are trying to pull the quick hook on him. Maybe he needs some more time to grow as a coach.
If I had to guess, and yes this is guessing, VDN probably figures if he benches the vets in favor of underperfoming young players, he risks killing the team chemistry. If Gooden and Hughes and Noc are unhappy with their minutes, they will let it drag the rest of the team down.
Fine. Let him grow
On some other team. Coaches aren’t drafted, so there’s less (maybe no) incentive to “develop” them.
Even if he does develop and becomes just as good as Eddie Jordan, why waste the three or four years that would take when we could have Eddie Jordan right now? That’s like turning down Amare Stoudemire today because we think TT might become just as good a few years down the road.
by drew gooden's facial growth on Dec 10, 2008 9:19 PM CST up reply actions
To a certain extent you're right
but continuity matters a lot in the nba. More than you are counting. If you just fired a coach every time you found a better one out there, you risk placing little value on the coaches status. Once the players realize that, their respect for the coach goes out the window. Once that happens, you end up with last year’s results.
I'm with you on the continuity point
And I’d be with you all the way if we’d brought in a proven coach that wasn’t seeing success right away.
I realize that this is not as black and white as I’m framing it. But, on balance, I think replacing VDN with Jordan right now would result in a net benefit to the team.
by drew gooden's facial growth on Dec 11, 2008 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
Eddie Jordan is an underrated coach
who shouldn’t have been fired. I also think he’s most likely going to always be a better coach than VDN. The timing is just bad right now.
Hopefully VDN progresses. To be honest, I’m happier with him after reading his outburst in the papers today, although I might be in the minority.
yeah
Eddie did very little to drastically improve the Wizards though. He had 2 all stars every year and every so often 3, and yet he did nothing to improve their defense. I know Arenas is not a good defender by any stretch, but he could have been better, and Butler is pretty good to offset him…
They had 2 physical bigs, who while hardly great, could easily man the paint if directed as such (folks who disagree, could watch what Skiles already is doing with the softer Bucks).
Eddie was a coach who succeeded because of talents, not because he was a great coach. He’d be a GREAT offensive assistant coach though….
Disagree
He was supposedly running the show in NJ when they went to the finals. He had some all-stars but little else surrounding them. The next best player they had was Antonio Daniels, maybe?
2 physical bigs isn’t saying much. We have one physical small forward people aren’t enamored with. Gooden is better than Haywood or Etan Thomas. Both of which couldn’t stand each other. He’s also going to be the first of the fired coaches to see himself re-hired. Kind of a backhanded compliment, but it’s worth something.
Yeah
Gooden might be better than Haywood or Thomas, not dramatically better but better, and consistently better, but Arenas, Butler and Jamison are all consistently better than our big 3 (Deng, Gordon, Hinrich)—old big 3 as a unit and probably also individually too.
I guess it's what you value.
They have 3 stars (although no superstars) and absolute garbage after that.
The Bulls have more decent guys but no one is making the all-star team.
Even so, he did make the playoffs every year basically and kept them competitive. I guess we’ll learn more on Jordan’s next job.
I don't know
Gilbert Arenas sure is a superstar…..I don’t know who you were watching…..he’s as electric as they come.
And still Butler and Jamison have consistently been better stars and all stars than any Bull.
And they’ve had athletic bigs and a decent bench. Inconsistency with Haywood and Thomas, but together those two were a more than adequate 5.
I haven't been watching.
He’s done virtually nothing the last 2 seasons.
When he did play, he hasn’t been himself.
Adequate is a best case scenario to describe Haywood/Thomas. So how good should the Wizards have been. Best case they could ever win was 50 games in my eyes. And I believe they did that once. Should Eddie Jordan have been coaching them into the Finals?
I disagree (obviously)
He made the most of the talent he had. The Wizards have regularly been without their best players because injuries, and Jordan’s teams have still competed and made the playoffs.
Also, Jordan has always stressed D, but his two best players have never much been interested in playing it.
by drew gooden's facial growth on Dec 11, 2008 3:57 PM CST up reply actions
Well I disagree
He kept his teams in the playoffs in pretty weak at the bottom East years…..I mean even last year where the East overall was better 37 wins made the playoffs….
The top 2-3 out East have been solid for years, but the rest have been a bit lukewarm…..
And he wasn’t ever in those tops with the 1 superstar and 2 all stars next to them.
I know injuries play some part, but they had a few healthy years and did nothing.
By saying he preached D, it seems to me he talked about defense to save his ass, but he wasn’t able to COACH it, which essentially means he failed.
I mean, much as Skiles bugs me long term, he’s got a far less gifted and far less interested in defense Bucks team going from 30th in defensive efficiency to 14th in defensive efficiency (and improving there)….
Wow. That's exactly right.
Look, I know nuance is tough for you. That’s obvious, but come on! As if there’s no in-between hands-off and firing a guy.
I’ll try to explain briefly: If Paxson has to completely re-haul the roster from right now, except for Rose, he has a monumental task in front of him. There are a lot of great players who got close but never won championships. However, if he can sit his coach down and say, "Hey, Nocioni, Hughes and Gooden aren’t going to bring the Bulls a championship anytime soon. Stop playing them. I know they aren’t good now, but I need to see if you can develop Gordon, Deng, Sefolosha, Thomas and Noah. If one or two of them can fit around Rose, it makes my job easier. "
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Dude...
Please… You don’t have to explain anything to me. You don’t know nearly half as much as you think you do… Seriously.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 11, 2008 12:14 AM CST up reply actions
Witness the latest rumours that TT and Noah aren't putting in the work to earn minutes...
But clearly that idea is blasphemy. It’s all VDN’s fault, I get it Tyger, you can stop teaching me already.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 11, 2008 12:33 AM CST up reply actions
Of course you know "get it all". You know everything.
Of course.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
And honestly, what do I care if I am wrong?
I’ve been wrong plenty of times. I’ve admitted it plenty of times. You calling me out as “not knowing everything” is hardly some kind of personal insult you seemed it to be. Nobody knows everything. You’re the one who seems to get some uppity satisfaction out of being “right”.
Besides, answer me this: Would it be better for the Bulls to have two or three complementary pieces to Rose on the team right now, or is it better to be forced to completely dump everyone around him and build from scratch?
That’s the only point I was making. I’m sorry you took it so personal again. I’ll try to stop insulting you so darned severely.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
It's not about being right and wrong...
What I want, and what is actually happening, are two different things.
Do I want the Bulls to have great complimentary pieces… Um… Of course, who doesn’t? But that’s changing the subject completely.
This all started because you called out VDN as not doing what he said he would, but I think it’s become clear that neither of us knew what was really happening. A good coach doesn’t just blindly state what he will do, and then completely fail to adapt when it becomes obvious that it won’t work the way he needs it to… But still, he should do it because he said he would… In a TV conference!
Honestly Tyger, the problem I have is that you condescend to me as if I have never watched an NBA season before, but I honestly don’t really care what you think. Say whatever you want about me.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 11, 2008 10:27 AM CST up reply actions
With all the ranting, it seems as if you care very much.
I don’t try to come off as brash, but I obviously do. I will make a special effort to be nicer when replying to you. Seriously.
And yes, that’s exactly what I perceive the problem to be with Del Negro. I’ve yet to hear a convincing argument that what Del Negro is doing is in the long-term benefit of the Bulls franchise. Playing Gooden, Nocioni and Hughes will not benefit the Bulls in 2011 or beyond. Unless it’s to “showcase them”… which it’s clearly not because of Del Negro’s recent calling out of Thomas and Noah (and I guess Sefolosha).
There are two ways to look at this:
1 — Thomas and Noah suck and will likely never get it so playing them more doesn’t help for the future. Play the better team now so they can at least win now.
2 — Gooden and Nocioni and Hughes really aren’t that good, and have no future with this team. Gray can improve, but will almost certainly never be a full-time starter for a good NBA team. Thomas and Noah and Sefolosha might not have much of a chance, if any, for panning out with the team, but if they do, it would be awesome for the future of the franchise. Therefore, play them more. Be more communicative. If they still can’t get it after full-time, consistent minutes and soft-handling gloves, then whatever. Its not like the team lost anything in the interim.
I feel I know exactly why Del Negro likes the former thought-process. He’s coaching for his career. Every extra win on his resume is a HUGE deal. I can understand the mentality for a fan w/ the first mindset as well. I disagree with it. Whole-heartedly. For the simple fact that even if these two guys supposedly “never get it”, they’re still league-average players in NET total of things. And even those are valuable.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
He may be
I think he’s doing a fine job learning on the go. The team is playing together and they’re building unity, and mostly the guys seem to be having fun (Larry-Derrick-Ben-Drew and now that Luol’s coming around possibly him too).
The youngs are projects still, not VDN’s fault.
He needed to build team comraderie first after the in fighting and mess of last year, and I think that’s the most important first step.
The offense is coming around with solid ball movement and from day 1 to today you really can see some big differences there.
Sure at times we get out of rhytym and start overdribbling as the offense stagnates, but compare that to the last 2 years, and you’ll see dramatic improvement on ball movement, and having guys move without the ball.
Del Negro can’t help that our front court sucks and that Drew mostly plays a jump shooting big man game on a team that needs him inside.
He’s doing a good job with a horribly mish mash of players that features way too many guards and too few viable inside threats.
Now our main thing to work on is D and mostly transition D, but with the inconsistent Tyrus Thomas, Joakim Noah and frankly Drew GOoden (who’s a bit more consistent on offense though can have wildly awful games) but is awful on defense).
We need a trade, blasting VDN for playing the talent he has mostly to a near.500 clip after a tough start schedule is too much.
Completely agree...
He might not be Phil Jackson right now, but he’s certainly not some cancer that we need to eliminate tomorrow.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 10, 2008 4:54 PM CST up reply actions
I'm pretty sure something "epic" concerning criticism happens every other week or so here.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I think what we would like most is for VDN to not suck.
but that is not likely. So whatever will get him out of here. I mean Noce is not a center. And Joakim Noah is out of shape. To me that is the biggest indictment. Joakim is outta of shape but is he being benched: No.
If Tyrus
was playing as well as Gooden (or Hughes), everyone would be pissing themselves. VDN has no idea what he’s doing, but Gooden and Hughes are not the problem. Not a long term solution, but not the problem. And you can bet that if, for some strange reason, VDN were let go mid season, either Harris or Bickerstaff, who are competent, experienced head coaches, would get the nod. I was at the game, and it seemed that Noc was the issue. Every time he was on the floor, we looked bad. I didn’t check his +/1, but I bet it was atrocious. Deng was very aggressive, and did some really good things that did not show up in the box score. And, just for fun, how good would Harrington have looked in a Bulls uniform. He could have scored 50 last night if Du hadn’t jacked up so many (bad) shots at the end.
Yeah
I thought it was funny that Duh was having a solid game, a very solid game, but down the stretch he did all the little things he used to do when he was with us that cost us the games (but didn’t necessarily kill his shots). I mean he’s a streaky shooter at best, and wasn’t hitting the streaky shots, but Al Harrington was on fire the whole game. Still Duh decided to be the aggressor while covered and shoot 1-2 3’s and that awful decision to drive man to man on the much quicker and stronger Derrick Rose….I mean it’s not like Derrick hasn’t been in the league and Duhon hasn’t watched the film, or seen the block of Andre Miller….I don’t know what he was thinking. He cost them that game after playing a very solid game for 3.5 quarters.
yeah, maybe
cause they would’ve looked better as a team.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 10, 2008 7:48 PM CST up reply actions
give it a rest already
we get it…you hate Gordon…hooray
by NormVanBeer on Dec 10, 2008 10:07 PM CST up reply actions
If he had a better game they would have won by 15
And everyone would be uber-happy about blowing out the Knicks.
What do you see in a 14 ppg with no jumper that makes one think he will be better than a 26ppg\ 12rpg guy? Is there some kind of magic formula that tells you 14 > 26??
by Dabullsfan on Jul 1, 2008 10:19 AM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 11, 2008 11:04 AM CST up reply actions
That's a good point, actually;
as badly as the Bulls played, they still won with their leading scorer having an off-night, and their best player being pretty passive. It’s not as if the Knicks suck anymore, either. They just beat both New Jersey and Detroit – playoff teams, apparently.
Granted: playing badly stinks. But if the Bulls can beat an average team on and off-night, that’s a good thing, right?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Now I know why VDN plays Noce so much. I don't agree but well...
When asked about TT’s DNP-CD and Noah’s inconsistent playing time, this is what VDN said.
“They’re young and have to find their way. When you’re on the court, you have to value those minutes. The guys who are focused, know their role, commit to it and come with effort every day will play.”
“I can handle mistakes. But I can’t handle lack of effort. And I can’t handle lack of commitment to the team. Those guys know that. They’re working better. That’s always a work in progress with a young team.”
Hence, noce can miss the open threes because it’s his job to shoot (and miss) those. Hughes, Gooden and Gordon can hoist up ill-advised shots as long as they are committed to the team.
Still don’t agree. Trade Noce now, even if we need to throw in Thabo or TT to get a Kaman or a Scola or a Diogu/A. Randolph.
more on VDN's commitment philosophy
“Commitment is coming in with energy every day, with focus, trying to get better, lifting weights, being on time, paying attention in meetings, being ready to play, knowing what your role is, who you’re guarding, what their strengths and weaknesses are, how you can affect the team in a positive way,” he said. “Commitment is being a professional, working every day to get better individually. As that happens, the team gets better.”
So as long as Gooden knows who he’s guarding and how to guard him, it doesn’t matter if he actually guards him? Sheesh.
i'm sorry
but these are some pretty dumb comments. How is what Noc is doing affecting the team in a positive way?? So is including Thabo in this too? Is Thabo not being professional, not lifting weights, not being on time? What accounts for his lack of PT?
Vinny seriously hasn’t a clue. It honestly sounds like he’s just throwing shit against the wall here.
by NormVanBeer on Dec 10, 2008 10:10 PM CST up reply actions
also
4 games ago (vs Phil), Tyrus played 32 min…3 games ago (vs Mil), he played 22 min…2 games ago (vs WAS) he played 5 min…last game he gets a DNP
So you’re telling me that in between the Mil game and the Was game he all of a sudden became uncommitted and became unprofessional?
Bullcrap…
by NormVanBeer on Dec 10, 2008 10:21 PM CST up reply actions
Thabo...
is in a crowded backcourt and pretty much sucked it up when Vinny put him in as a starter in the beginning of the season.
Especially now that Hughes is a contributor, I’m not surprised to not see Thabo.
its really late ...
and our imagination just goes wild! Why would Washington do such a trade.
Did Etan Thomas rape – rob – or shoot someone that would cause the Wizards to trade
him for Noc’s contract.
Yet, as I said before if JP could make this happen.. it would be
a great first step towards his redemption.
man up!
I would be happy if the Bulls got a big stiff for Nocioni.
Don’t read anything more into it.
Of course the Whiz gave the questionably healthy Arenas a 0.111 BILLION dollar contract, so who knows what they might do?
by Granny Waiters on Dec 11, 2008 5:55 PM CST up reply actions
I'm a harsh critic of much in this organization, but
I refuse to have anything bad to say about VDN this season, a rookie no-experience coach. Actually under those circumstances. His grade probably is a A+.
I refuse to bash Aaron Gray, a 2nd round draft pick.
man up!
by exult463 on Dec 10, 2008 10:14 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, some people seem to think that Gray should
provide All-Star level play at the league minimum salary.
by Granny Waiters on Dec 11, 2008 5:58 PM CST up reply actions
I think he should play minimum
at his minimum salary.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 11, 2008 6:52 PM CST up reply actions
Playing the young movement is far too overrated.
Please name the last NBA team that won the championship with a nucleous of youths.
“like never”
Some of you guys speak “entitlement” for the two overpaid, spoiled, out of shape, stupid, lack of discipline, pick too high “lottery” draft scrubs:Thomas and Noah.
VDN knows what he’s doing. Championship are won with a mixture of youth and mostly veterans. Do the research… and stop this Tired Thomas and Joke Noah crap!
Let thoses guys carry Gooden and Hughes luggage to the bus for a couple of more years then maybe they’ll get serious and learn post moves and how to shoot a jump shot with proper form.
man up!
I agree somewhat
I agree that both TT and Noah need to shape up and get things going in the right direction, but Hughes is part of the problem. Gray as stated earlier is a 2nd round pick, overplaying his value. (Thats a good thing) TT is under performing and so is Noah. The funny thing is the two guys that the debate was over while drafting those two are having way better pro careers. (Aldridge and Hawes) At some point TT and Noah have to live up to their potential and the hype we drafter them for. They were supposed to be players from strong college programs who had discipline, but they are turning out to be a couple of kids who have to be guided closely to mature. Noc is doing what he can, its on Vinny to put him in a better position to succeed, and when he is stinking it up, its the coach’s job to sit him. Its hard to criticize his effort, its up to the coaches to deem if he is good enough to get minutes and how much.
Thabo also falls under the same group as TT and Noah. He hasn’t lived up to his potential even when he was playing. I agree he hasn’t been given much of a chance, but I am sure if he was killing at practice he would get that shot. That is the one aspect we miss as fans; we don’t see practice and what happens behind the scenes where players have to earn time. From the sound of things and judging by the season so far, VDN had the intention of developing TT, Noah, and Thabo and played them early more than they might have earned because his intentions were like ours. At some point these guys regressed to a point where they didn’t earn those minutes even with the coach’s intentions to want to play them. Guys like Gooden are having career years, which is good for us since he will be good trade bait, and as much as I cant stand Hughes, I wish he plays this well till we sucker somebody in to taking him. I am not sure how much I disagree with the coaching, but I can surely criticize management and drafting and player evaluations.
So basically at some point TT, NOAH, and THABO need to step up and show day in day out how committed they are to earning minutes. If they wanted it as bad as we want them to have it, they would be way better by now…
by NamingRightsOnSale on Dec 11, 2008 2:33 AM CST up reply actions
I agree with your comments.
In regards to Thabo, both guys ahead of him on the food chain have scoring mentailities. Hughes and Gordon will shoot until their shot comes back.
I believe it will be impossible for Thabo to get minutes until one or both of those guys leaves. If Thabo then only competing against Kirk, then things could be different or else both might still suck as a starter in SG position.
I believe VDN is trying to change the culture and thought process here in Chicago as it related to entitlement of young players more in line with the NBA and other good teams. Good teams allow youngings to develop without this entitlement Paxson has implemented going back to Kirk Hinrich, Luo Deng, etc. He shipped all veterans out of town, to allow Kirk to develop without a mentor.
Boston did this same thing, it shipwrecked, and they were fortunate to bring in KG and Allen to form a champsionship team together with a youngster Rondo.
Interesting to see how Portland fares, as I believe Bulls young talent was better than Boston’s during their youth movement and the Bulls made it to the playoffs, Portland’s young talent is better than the Bulls so it will be interesting to see what becomes of this team. I’d bet they won’t win a championship until they mix a good mix of veterans with the young guys.
Don’t misunderstand me they are exceptions like a Derrick Rose or LBJ who earn respect with exceptional talent and can play immediately..
man up!
Future wise
future wise, we need to get another great player. I think J Rich would have been a good SG next to Rose, but we are late on that. Kaman can help in the middle. We are going to need a way better SG than anything we will have since BG leaving almost a certainty. NO way he comes back to the Bulls after how disrespected he felt about the whole thing. We got Luol at the 3, We can play TT/Noah if they ever develop at the 4, and we can get a real center like a Kaman or someone else half decent. NO way you can get a great center easily. They are too rare. Its easier get a start SG. Thats what I thin we need to do for the future.
by NamingRightsOnSale on Dec 12, 2008 4:02 AM CST up reply actions
If Noah truly lacks commitment to improve his game
Pax should exile him to Des Moines .
by Granny Waiters on Dec 11, 2008 6:03 PM CST up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Jeremy Lin’s teammate snaps of picture of his famous couch
- Dwight Howard picks a strange time to ask for more fourth quarter shots
- Spike Lee texts to thank the coach that cut Jeremy Lin before seeing him play
- LeBron threatened to beat up a heckler. You gotta problem with that, tough guy?
- Jason Whitlock apologizes for his unfunny Jeremy Lin comment on Twitter
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
