So much for the guard glut

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 9, 2008 5:37 PM CST Comment 125 comments

As you all know, Hinrich's out for 3 months after tearing a ligament in his thumb during Friday's game.

It's a bad blow, because for all the talk about the many guards on the team, Kirk was one of three who was actually good. And also it shelves the immediate trade talk. With this 3-month estimate, hopefully Hinrich proves himself to be healthy before the trading deadline in late February, for the added options if anything.

So with Hughes still out (and this could all go to hell when he comes back) there's been a lot of Rose-Gordon. It's not running perfectly, but especially with the way Gordon's playing, it's great to see Rose having a threat next to him.

Is it a case where they're working as an ideal combination, with Rose handling the ball and Gordon playing off of it? No. It's more like they take turns attacking the defense with the ball. It's still effective since they're both talented scorers, but hopefully with more time they can help eachother in more ways than indirectly commanding attention.

And beyond seeing those two, this weekend has been encouraging for the entire team. They blew out the Suns in their best performance of the season, and simply were out of gas (and got LeBronned) after hanging close with the Cavs. The defense has been more active, and it helps that Tyrus and especially Noah are getting out of their early-season dregs. Even Thabo has chipped in on that end since he was mercifully banished from the starting lineup. One place where the Gordon/Rose myturn/yourturn offense does work well is off of turnovers, as they're both going right to the rim, and I for all his ballhandling issues, Gordon is actually very dangerous on the break.

So while they'd be better if Kirk was available, his absence could've hurt a previous Bulls team much worse than this one. Rose is going to play a lot of minutes, and BG/Thabo/Hughes can handle the backup PG duties in the spot stretches he doesn't. What a lot more playing time for Gordon does mean (and remember, just last week he was the 4th guard into the game) is that Rose doesn't have the responsibilty of carrying the entire offense as much...as for the first time in his career, Gordon is starting a season firing and hitting. Even passing a bit (highest AST% of his career) and defending too. I look forward to seeing if he can learn to more actively play with Rose....and maybe deferring a bit more in the 4th. If he wants to help out the most he can, he'll have to learn there's no shame in being the wingman to Derrick Rose. In fact, it's the only way he has a chance of staying beyond this season.

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This also could show Del Negro, Paxson the 'dorf...

…that Hinrich is expendable for the near-future of this team. If they can hit on most cylinders w/ Hughes/Thabo taking the Hinrich role in the team’s best 3-guard rotation of Rose/Gordon/Hinrich, then there isn’t much reason to keep Hinrich beyond this season. Of course, by not ponying up for Gordon this past summer, they could be putting themselves at the mercy of his negotiating… although we know the Bulls will never “lose” a negotiating, unless it’s to Nocioni.

This brings up a different point that your last sentence brought to mind: This is a great opportunity for the GM and head coach to work together. They need to communicate to Gordon that if he wants to stay on this team, he needs to recognize that it is Rose’s team in the future. If, in the ensuing three months, Gordon rarely defers to Rose, they can probably assume he’s checking out at the end of the season.

Of course, if they trade Hinrich and Gordon goes elsewhere, as you’ve said often enough, is losing both of them really the end of the world? It will make the team substantially worse over the next two seasons, but the financial flexibility would at least give them options to remedy that, even if it’s not the much-ballyhooed 2010 strategy. Or something.

by tyger1147 on Nov 9, 2008 5:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Absence makes the heart grow fonder

I think it’s probably more likely if the Bulls play well they say “and gee, we’ll really be hell on wheels when Kirk gets back”. And if they play poorly… “see, we can’t trade Kirk!”

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Nov 9, 2008 6:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm with you

Webster’s injury didn’t stop Blazer fans from saying the roster needed consolidated. They fell in love with the rookie Batum and now they all want Outlaw traded, because he’s not as good in the starting role as the regular starter. A lot of fans wanted to trade him before Webster’s injury to “consolidate” the roster.

Fans will always want a trade until there is an injury, then they’ll come up with another excuse for a trade. Trade talk is like heroin addition except it’s easier to get the heroin monkey off you back.

by tominhawaii on Nov 10, 2008 3:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

meh....

We still won’t be as bad as last year… and at least Rose makes the games fun to watch. As long as he doesn’t get hurt, I’m still into this season.

This does give Gordon a legitimate shot showing what he can do this year.

by kidronmusic on Nov 9, 2008 6:01 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Is it my imagination

or isn’t Ben averaging like 30pts per game. He’s been virtually unstoppable. Gordon-Rose immediately becomes one of the better backcourts in the East. What team would not trade straight up? Philly? Boston? Atlanta? Miami? Milwaukee? Minny? My sister could be the third guard. Sure, we’ll miss Kirk, but we finnally have been forced to play our best backcourt.

This is like those John Hughes movies where the star player is longing for the home coming queen, who has serious personality issues and is a bitch who will brake your heart, besides, while not realizing that the cute little thang he left behind was perfect all along. And goddammit, she really cares. Starring Molly Ringwald as Ben Gordon. Give me any real production from Deng, Thomas, Noah, Gooden, Noch and we should win some games. Hughes and Thabo will be in school this year, but will transfer to a new school soon. We may need to get Noah out of detention for the big game. Kevin Bacon as the Coach. Get my letterman’s jacket out of storage.

by Cannoli on Nov 10, 2008 1:17 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs

I love this!

So is LBJ the cross town All State bully whom we have to hurdle in the state championships?

by PatBull on Nov 10, 2008 4:34 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs

Played by

of course, Matt Dillon.

by Cannoli on Nov 10, 2008 6:42 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs

This is a fun read!

by chgobr on Nov 10, 2008 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

TY

by Cannoli on Nov 10, 2008 8:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

How much is it going to suck when Larry inevitably gets the starting nod over BG?

Blech. That better not happen.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Nov 9, 2008 6:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I dont want none of those guys

running the point but Kirk and Rose..anybody pick up that washington cat yet? He was awesome in preseason

"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury's Head Tattoo

by Belize on Nov 9, 2008 7:24 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Europe. At least that's what was said a few days ago.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Nov 9, 2008 7:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ur right..ahh well…

"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury's Head Tattoo

by Belize on Nov 9, 2008 9:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I liked what I saw out of Washington as well

but I think the 10 minutes of backup PG duties (if even that) can easily be ate up by Gordon who has better better at assists lately and can handle four or five minutes a half if we need to get Rose a rest. I think we will be fine if we can keep Hughes on the bench and run with Rose/Gordon/Thabo.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Nov 9, 2008 9:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i think his assists are up..

cuz rose is usually the one he gives it 2..dont think hell be the same w/o him…hope im wrong

"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury's Head Tattoo

by Belize on Nov 9, 2008 9:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Do you really think we're going to keep Hughes on the bench

I mean, he was presumed to be the starter before he went down. Sure, it would be nice if he didn’t play, but let’s stop kidding ourselves.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Nov 9, 2008 10:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I hope that if I say it enough

it will come to pass. Spread it around the internet. Perhaps VDN will say, “I read somewhere, can’t remember where, that Hughes is crap. Now that I think of it he is indeed crap. What was I thinking?” And then VDN will bench him and the internet will be satisfied.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Nov 9, 2008 10:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Heh.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Nov 9, 2008 10:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hughes on bench?

*straight face*

Yes.

"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury's Head Tattoo

by Belize on Nov 10, 2008 12:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I will say..

that I play Hughes as a starter on 2k9..just cuz they made him nice like that…but that’s about it for him..he’s a bum, and I think Vinny just played him out of respect to see if it would work out…

"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury's Head Tattoo

by Belize on Nov 10, 2008 12:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I play Hughes on 2k9 in garbage time,

and I get him to dive and jump after the ball as much as I can. And every so often I enter ‘LARRY MODE’ when I have everyone on the team pass the ball to me so I can throw up random 20-foot jumpshots that miss the hoop.
It’s pretty fun.
Otherwise … no way! HUGHES IS THE DEVIL [disguised as a bad basketball player]

by Prevenge on Nov 10, 2008 3:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Some writers seem

to think Hughes will/should be inserted back into the starting lineup.

http://www.dailyherald.com:80/story/?id=249441

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/chi-10-bulls-chicagonov10,0,7047207.story

by sue369 on Nov 10, 2008 10:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

MAybe over time..

but putting him in on his 1st game back (or even 1st week) is stupid, asssinine and just plain retarded. I think I just lost my breakfast

"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury's Head Tattoo

by Belize on Nov 10, 2008 11:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I should have read

the comments farther down. I see these were posted below. Sorry.

by sue369 on Nov 10, 2008 11:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I really don't agree...

that we should keep Larry Hughes over Kirk Hinrich. Hinrich is younger, more consistent (compared to Hughes, anyway) and is known to be a good “Team” person. Hughes is…well…Hughes. He can out-tall Hinrich and that’s about it.

by PatBull on Nov 9, 2008 7:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Hughes is only worth keeping for the cap flexibility.

by fundamentallysound on Nov 9, 2008 7:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think any of us really think Hughes is better than Hinrich (hopefully).

The problem is that the rest of the league has caught on to Hughes’s terrible-ness, which, along with his contract, makes him a tough sell.

by potato0328 on Nov 9, 2008 7:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Good point.

Thabo and Gooden as Trade bait?

by PatBull on Nov 9, 2008 7:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for making my sportsluv day even bleaker Illini15 with your Larry the Upchucker prediction.

I was just getting over the Bears blues when I read your post. Does VDN have a death wish, or is he just infatuated with any guards taller than he is (ala Hughes, Thabo). If that’s his obsession, I think it’s time to experiment with Luol at the 2, especially when the Bulls are competing with less than stellar lineups. This frees up more minutes for our other bigs and keeps Larry the scattershot taking up more bench time.

I think Matt is correct that the offense needs more BG and once he learns to defer to our flower child, this will make him more effective. Scottie Pippen enhanced his rep playing second fiddle to MJ, although Ben is hardly in the same league with the P man.

The ball needs to be in Rose’s hands in crunch time, because watching the defense trapping BG in a sandwich that will inevitibly result in the meat squirting out to the floor as Ben or the ball does just as the Bulls are about to take a victory bite, leads to a giant case of fan indigestion time and time again. Let Ben be the pickle and cole slaw to the delicious and satisfying Rose Rueben and the Bulls fans won’t have to deal with acid reflux after every close game.

If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard

by Tyrusmancrush on Nov 9, 2008 7:39 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

But can Gordon ever accept that? Is being in the starting 5 enough for him or does he have to be The Man? I think he wants to be The Man.

by PatBull on Nov 9, 2008 7:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Suddenly so hungry... can't figure out why....

by potato0328 on Nov 9, 2008 7:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Mmmm... fries

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Nov 9, 2008 8:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think

you’re on to something with the Rose Reuben..

a Chicago food joint should make a Rose sandwich, that’d be pretty funny. Like the Larry David Sandwich, for all you Curb Your Enthusiasm fans out there…

"They wanted me to sacrifice things so we could win." -- Larry Hughes

by Evil Pax on Nov 9, 2008 9:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

All this BG/Rose talk.

This speaks so ill of our decision to give Deng 71 mil and offer Gordon nothing close to that. Maybe Deng would have taken an offer closer to what Monta Ellis took (6yr/66mil) and I have no doubt Gordon would have taken a deal similar to that.

by lexdiamonds0730 on Nov 9, 2008 8:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Well apparently he tried to accept the Bulls 6/$55M offer but they pulled it.

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Nov 9, 2008 9:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If that story is true

It makes me want to puke.

Once the puke is cleaned up, and realizing that that mistake is now a sunk cost, it makes me optimistic that we can work out something with BG this coming offseason. It’s really quite plainly obvious that he’s a better 2-guard than Kirk Hinrich, and losing him would be a huge blow to this franchise (prior to any 2010 considerations).

"You ain’t as hot as I is / all of these false prophets is not messiahs /
You don’t know how high the sky is / the square mileage of earth or what pi is." - Nas

by Jivas on Nov 9, 2008 9:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah I wonder how much of the stalemate

was the agent, or the player

"They wanted me to sacrifice things so we could win." -- Larry Hughes

by Evil Pax on Nov 9, 2008 9:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He probably thought

he could always sign at the last minute. It is quite common for last minute deals, especially if it is giving in to the other side’s demands. If he was willing to sign for that amount they wanted him to and they pulled it they are the stupid ones now. They could have had him for what they wanted all along. Meanwhile they held up trading anyone because of the contract issues and ended up not getting Gordon either. Rather stupid way for the organization to waste the summer.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Nov 9, 2008 9:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agents are always getting slagged on

But sports agents aren’t much different than Real Estate agents. It’s in their interest to get a deal done as much or more than it is to hunt around for the best deal.

Suppose you want to sell your house for $100k. The agent gets 5% so $5k. Now suppose someone comes and offers $90k. What does the agent tell you? They get $4500 if you take the offer. In the grand scheme of things, $500 to them isn’t as big a deal as $10k is to you.

Likewise with NBA players. IIRC they get 4% of the contracts they negotiate. So the difference between a 55, 66, and 72M deal to Gordon was $2.2, $2.6M and $2.9M for Raymond Brothers. While more is always better, that’s a pretty insignificant seeming difference to me. Not getting the deal done, even if it can be recouped in a year, meant only a $250k payday for his effort. Ouch.

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Nov 9, 2008 10:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's a pretty big miscommunication

if Ben’s accurate and the his team thought the offer was out there and the Bulls had never left it on the table.

Isn’t this an offense worthy of dismissing your agent?

In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.

by NBA Observer on Nov 10, 2008 9:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It would be if it were the agent that miscommunicated

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Nov 10, 2008 11:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think his agent

has had BG’s best interest in any of this. I read that the Bulls made the offer and he/they rejected it and thought about it over night and decided to accept it the next day only to find the Bulls had pulled it from the table. Who knows if it was BG’s idea to reject the offer or his agents.

by sue369 on Nov 10, 2008 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i also question the way his agent handled things

and while it may have been stupid to totally pull the offer, the bulls were probably told in no uncertain terms what ben/agent thought of the offer and management was probably pissed, and also thought there was no way he’d come back and sign. not to say they shouldn’t have let him sign if he came back to them. but i think the agent made a gaffe here. i question how well the talks went from the beginning and that’s his fault.

by Jaina on Nov 10, 2008 2:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The final mistake was

still from the Bulls themselves. They made no trades over the summer because of the contract issues and then apparently had Ben ready to sign for the money they had been wanting him to sign for all along at the last hour (and plenty of contracts do come down to the last hour and all is forgiven after the signing) and then didn’t sign him. Talk about a waste of an entire summer. They had him and it would have been a deal, especially with how he has been playing so far this year. At that point it didn’t matter what his agent had been up to. Gordon was there to sign. Instead they decided to screw themselves over for no good reason.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Nov 10, 2008 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

there's also a conflicting report

about whether the bulls actually heard back from gordon (one of the articles mentions this).

i’m not saying the bulls were right, but they had their reasons for doing so. but i still think ben’s agent sucks.

by Jaina on Nov 10, 2008 2:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

also

the agent’s job is not only to get his client the best he can get, but also to communicate what his client wants to team management. if talks start out bad the onus is on the agent to smooth things over, not the player and not management. if the bulls and gordon were as far apart as all the reports said, the agent must not have been doing gordon any favors. gordon was clearly still considering all options, and while he knew what he wanted, he came to his senses at the end. his agent wasn’t working well with management here. if the bulls had any indication gordon wanted this offer in any sort of way, i doubt they would have pulled it. that’s the agent’s fault.

by Jaina on Nov 10, 2008 2:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Bulls could always

put the deal back on the table. They are the ones setting the rules and were the ones who had the deal to pull or put back. It is silly to think the Bulls had their hands tied when they clearly didn’t. They had Gordon right where they wanted him: 1) coming to him without his agent there to get in the way 2) ready to sign their desired offer 3) a way of them coming out on top after a tradeless off season. There was no reason to pull it and so far no reason for them not to put it back on the table since they were the ones making the rules up as they went anyway.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Nov 10, 2008 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

again

i’m not saying that i think the bulls did the right thing.

but i just think his agent is more at fault. you have an agent to represent your wishes and he is not the first agent to have to have made a deal with bulls management. it can be done. the name of the game is get your client a good deal and gordon ended up on the QO. i’m convinced that with a better agent a deal would have been done without us all wondering what happened.

by Jaina on Nov 10, 2008 2:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But what we don't know is how

his agent came across to management. BG had said once there was no way he would ever accept a QO and yet he did. Maybe there were threats made to management that we know nothing about and management had had enough. There are always two sides to everything.

by sue369 on Nov 10, 2008 3:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

for what seems like the first time in awhile

you and i agree. :)

i think his agent sucks.

by Jaina on Nov 10, 2008 3:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Looks that way. :D

I wonder why he changed agents?

by sue369 on Nov 10, 2008 3:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Screw themselves?

Is it the summer of ’09 already? Have you been there; tell me what are record will be this year?

Stop over reacting it might turn out for the best and we might lose him for nothing, who knows. Just last year Varejo said he would never play for the Cavs again and look at where he is.

by J Theory on Nov 10, 2008 2:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Looks like we disagree.

The Bulls had a lot of trade assets over the summer and now one of their biggest is out three months. Had they locked in a shooting guard Hinrich could have been moved along with Noc and his double pumping old man legs. Now we have postponed the inevitable by not locking in our SG (who we could have had on discount) and didn’t move our assets, one of which is hardly an asset now with an extend injury to his shooting hand of all places. Our record doesn’t really matter. These things needed to happen regardless and IMO faster than ever since Rose is the real thing right now and there is little need to flounder a few years with a bad roster. Feel free to disagree. Complaining about some stupid agent and trying to lay the blame on someone like him is stupid when the Bulls were in control when the trigger needed to be pulled.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Nov 10, 2008 5:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

since gordon had waited so long to make a decision

there was not really a lot opportunity to make trades, imo. if they wanted to lock him up and try to trade, the deal needed to occur sooner anyways. it’s rare that such a blockbuster (ai/billups) occurs so early (a week!) in the season. they probably weren’t getting rid of hinrich till the deadline at earliest, especially given our lack of backup pg. i still maintain the best time to move him is going to be next summer (now if he can prove he’s healthy).

blaming the agent isn’t stupid, he’s the other side of the negotiations.

by Jaina on Nov 10, 2008 5:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

also

we’ll see if the deal would have been a “discount.” sure ben is playing great now, but i want to see that last through 82 games. i thought he was worth 10$mil per year and if he can keep this up i could be convinced of a million or two more. but then it will be the bulls’ fault for waiting, but we’ll have some more money when gooden comes off the books at the end of the year, so hopefully if ben earns the big paycheck, we can give it to him.

by Jaina on Nov 10, 2008 5:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

As I said above, there's really no reason for Gordon's agent to do this.

Gordon’s agent, probably proportionately lost more than Gordon did by not getting a deal done.

Of course, the fact that he didn’t offer to include a proviso stipulating he’d carry Kirk’s bags around would seem in Ben’s best interest to you :P

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Nov 10, 2008 6:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i don't think it was necessarily

that ben’s agent didn’t have his best interests at heart, the way sue says, though i do think it was his screw up. i think he just sucks.

by Jaina on Nov 10, 2008 7:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Meh

I think agents are convenient scapegoats.

Looking at his client list, Gordon’s agent has Zach Randolph, Caron Butler, Jamaal Tinsley and Paul Milsap. Oh, and Sean Singletary… who cares.

I don’t see anyone on that list who’s got a really crummy deal. Randolph got a great deal (for Randolph) and so does Tinsley. Butler’s getting paid like the upper-middle class player he is.

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Nov 10, 2008 9:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

eh, i dunno

paul allen isn’t known to skimp, and as for caron, well, they just gave a gimpy arenas 111 million dollars. tinsley… i don’t know the pacers reputation. but seems he hasn’t gotten a deal done with such a frugal owner.

by Jaina on Nov 11, 2008 7:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

also

i don’t typically blame agents (as for them being scape goats of sorts). i just didn’t get a good vibe about this whole thing.

by Jaina on Nov 11, 2008 7:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I guess we disagree.

by sue369 on Nov 11, 2008 9:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But he has got to realize...

that Rose is the Bulls franchise player. If he can’t, it will be a constant power struggle (like the struggle between Shaq and kobe, except without the heft, hype and rings).

by PatBull on Nov 9, 2008 9:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

It will take more than a few games to determine how he will fit.

This season is a test for all the players. Not just Gordon. We’ve already seen some improvements during the first three quarters. It is possible that with more time together the 4th quarter will run much smoother too. If not it will be easy enough to show Gordon and anyone else not fitting the exit.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Nov 9, 2008 9:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gordon is not the PERFECT fit next to Rose

But that is not an issue we have the luxury to concern ourselves with. He is, by acclimation, the best 2-guard and best fit next to Rose that we have on our roster, or that we can realistically obtain with the resources that we currently have. Gordon may be imperfect, but he is an extremely, extremely important part of our franchise.

"You ain’t as hot as I is / all of these false prophets is not messiahs /
You don’t know how high the sky is / the square mileage of earth or what pi is." - Nas

by Jivas on Nov 9, 2008 9:40 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs

Bingo.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Nov 9, 2008 10:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

x2

by rquinsee on Nov 10, 2008 12:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

if there's a power struggle, the solution is easy

Goodbye Mr.Gordon. Have a good flight. Thank you for visiting DEREK’S CITY. Hope you enjoyed your stay more than we did!

by JayDangles on Nov 9, 2008 10:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He could probably spell Rose's name right, though.

by tyger1147 on Nov 10, 2008 7:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I doubt BG and Jeter would get into a power struggle.

by messwiththebull on Nov 10, 2008 9:01 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs

Over the summer, we reportedly had 126-130 million for the next 6 years to sign Gordon and Deng

So why the HELL didn’t the Bulls just give Gordon and Deng identical deals of 63-65 million over the nxt 6 years. That’ about what tey’re worth, though maybe that’s a bit too generous to Deng. Pax has some explaining to do. No just for this, but for everything.

Get the rock to Rose!!

by stupidgenius on Nov 9, 2008 9:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Ben's been great lately,

but he’s still Ben. Only now is he starting to play D again and pass somewhat frequently. Those aren’t things he does very much or well usually, but I’ll give him the credit he deserves for his recent attitude adjustment. We all know it’s to prove his worth in the league for free agency, but is this Ben Gordon ready to commit to balanced play and not dribble off his foot multiple times per game?
  If he does, he might have a future still in Chicago next to Derrick Rose as an explosive backcourt duo that could easily put up points in bunches. However, I still am yet to be convinced that Ben will maintain this level of all-around effort for an extended period. I certainly hope he does though.
   Rose is definitlely a star and there’s no doubt about that. It must put things in perspective a bit more when he stops and compares the normal Ben Gordon with what 19 yr old DRose does on the court. Ben’s playmaking ability usually isn’t this good, and DRose’s presence might be forcing BG to rethink his approach a bit to justify big bucks after the very weak interest in him across the league this last off-season.
    Either way I’m keeping my fingers crossed. Also, Hughes is not too great but better than everyone expected this year. I’m thinking DRose’s enthusiasm and commitment to the team concept is spreading and causing some players even besides BG to hold themselves accountable. I am amazed by what Rose brings to the table for this Bulls team. Rose is a special PG who will return the glory to the Bulls!

by JayDangles on Nov 9, 2008 10:24 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

a Rose By Any Other Name

would be Deron Paul.

If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard

by Tyrusmancrush on Nov 9, 2008 11:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Sounds like Ben knows what his options are in the 4th quarter now

Gordon said he talked to Rose after Saturday’s loss about better understanding each other’s tendencies and learning to play off each other.

“We have to jell quickly,” Gordon said.

Trib article

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Nov 10, 2008 8:49 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

nice column from KC

McGraw has a similar one, though he still thinks Hughes will provide defense, ugh.

Hughes is so going to start when he gets back…the question is if VDN will at least stick to his guns and make him prove he’s healthy first. I remember being told that missing practice is a big deal.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 10, 2008 9:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I would just love it

if Hughes had to prove that not only he was healthy but that he suddenly knew how to play basketball. I think he’d fail at least at that last point. It would seem it isn’t a requirement for him though.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Nov 10, 2008 9:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

also we get the opposite of Tyrus "who will be shopped" Thomas

Kirk “not like he was shopped” Hinrich!

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 10, 2008 9:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

As I've said and we all believe deep-down:

Kirk Hinrich and Andres Nocioni will be in Chicago for the duration of their contracts. I can’t imagine a scenario otherwise.

by tyger1147 on Nov 10, 2008 9:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If hughes starts on his first game back

I’m gonna…..well…im gonna think of sum’ nasty to say

"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury's Head Tattoo

by Belize on Nov 10, 2008 10:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

There's also a

poll on the trib website… gordon isn’t winning by nearly enough. :-/

by Jaina on Nov 10, 2008 11:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

really, 106 votes for Hughes?

Does Larry have a church congregation or something? This is ridiculous.

In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.

by NBA Observer on Nov 10, 2008 11:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i think it's hughes

going to the website over and over and voting for himself. :D

by Jaina on Nov 10, 2008 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Looks like I was able to vote for Gordon three times

In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.

by NBA Observer on Nov 10, 2008 12:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

Why did I google Hughes and Church and get this?

http://neoxenos.net/inside/2008/09/hughes-church-finds-its-groove/

"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury's Head Tattoo

by Belize on Nov 10, 2008 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Pastor Stacy King

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 10, 2008 12:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

King is brutal

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Nov 10, 2008 12:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

In all fairness

Not that Hughes and Sefolosha are lockdown defenders by any means, but if Gordon doesn’t have to spend the first six minutes of each half with a tough defensive matchup, the better off he’ll be.

by messwiththebull on Nov 10, 2008 11:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it's dumb.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 10, 2008 11:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

mcgraw's article

is one of the most preposterous things i’ve ever read. he advocates starting thabo or hughes for no reason other than that they are taller than gordon, and he actually thinks that the way to stop lebron (32% career 3 shooter, 19% on the year) is to not give him open threes and to let him drive. Sometimes I wonder if these guys stop for a minute and think about the drivel that they are about to publish

by Calogero on Nov 10, 2008 11:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and i forgot to mention that line

about the “psychological edge” the bulls will get if they can somehow be tied after the 1st quarter with their best scorer on the bench. personally, i prefer scoreboard edges to psychological ones

by Calogero on Nov 10, 2008 11:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

We get a psychological edge

if we win without playing our good players!
By this same idea, Cleveland should sit Lebron to start the game. If Cleveland’s still in it after the first, oh man. Psychological advantage time! Yes!!!!!!!!

by Prevenge on Nov 11, 2008 1:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, that was garbage

I mean, does it not occur to anyone that, say, Joe Johnson would have to pay no attention whatsoever to Thabo Sefolosha.

I don’t know, I guess he’ll pay some attention to Hughes, but it’s such erroneous logic it defies credibility.

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Nov 11, 2008 8:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You could say the same in reverse

He doesn’t have to worry about BG making shots because he can the score at will on the other end.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 11, 2008 12:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But that's not really true, is it?

Unless you have some evidence you’d like to use to support that claim.

by tyger1147 on Nov 11, 2008 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Last time I checked, outscoring the opponent gets you wins

Thabo vs JJ means JJ scores at will and doesn’t work on defense.
Gordon vs JJ means JJ scores at will and works on defense. Which, the theory goes (when applied to Gordon), takes away player’s ability to score at will.

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Nov 11, 2008 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gordon CAN NOT guard JJ when he is playing well

1 of 2 things will happen

1)JJ will score 60 points
2)BG will foul out.

Either way, bad news.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 11, 2008 4:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

::disdainful shake of the head::

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 11, 2008 4:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

::adds nothing to the discussion

by CJ Bulls on Nov 11, 2008 6:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

::chuckles at CJBulls lack of understanding of the '::' ::

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 11, 2008 6:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

::doesn't change anything

the “::” should probably just be kept to yourself.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 11, 2008 7:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Evidence??

What about the claim, “Joe Johnson would have to pay no attention whatsoever to Thabo Sefolosha.”

So what, he can let Thabo just stand under the hoop for layups and double DRose instead. That makes no sense. Even after a slow start, Thabo is shooting 35%.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 11, 2008 4:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's under 35%, and that's not good.

Thabo—career PER: 10.4 career FG% 42.4% 3fG% 32.4

Want an easier number to handle? How about 23 shot attempts in 100 minutes for Thabo? So let’s see… Thabo will shoot once every four minutes he’s in a game, and then only one out of every three of those shots will go in. So if they play him 24 minutes, he’d make… two shots. I’d say “pay[ing] no attention whatsoever to Thabo Sefolosha” is certainly hyperbole, but not by much.

Gordon vs. Johnson: Not much better than his career averages, and definitely not better than what he’s done since Gordon came into the league.

If you wanted to make an actual argument that had some sort of merit, you might try to say that Johnson will guard Gordon better than most because of his length. You wouldn’t argue that Johnson will have his way w/ Gordon.

Ahhh… this is fun. I guess we’ll find out tonight. One of us will eat crow. Or neither of us.

by tyger1147 on Nov 11, 2008 5:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's all relative. The point is the original statement

quoted no numbers so why should I in the reply. I’ll put the formula down simply

Johnson, good O adequate D
Gordon, good O bad D
Thabo good D bad O

And as general as those statements are, we can agree there is plenty of evidence to back those 3 statements. So either you spend energy at SG slowing Johnson down, or trying to keep up with his scoring. The point is both can be successful. I wasn’t suggesting Thabo should start, because Gordon has been playing very well lately. But the idea that it’s completely illogical to play Thabo against Joe Johnson is off the mark.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 11, 2008 6:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ugh

I wonder how insufferable you’d sound if BG wasn’t having a spectacular start to this season.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 11, 2008 6:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

At least you admit it's spectacular

and aren’t pretending like this is BGs usual game. I hope he keeps it up, on the surface he and Rose appear a very complementary tandem. But defense is half of the game. How do you not understand this? How do you not see that when the Bulls were winning it was with defense and not scoring. Someone here needs to play devil’s advocate to the over-indulgence of BG love.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 11, 2008 7:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

but when the bulls won 49 games

Gordon was their starting 2 guard, no matter how you rate his D.

by DangerMouse on Nov 11, 2008 7:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So we should trade Gordon for Kendrick Perkins

I mean he was starting for the Celtics and they won the championship.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 11, 2008 7:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I see fatigue really start to set in

both from a temporarily short guard rotation in Rose, Gordon and Thabo and then some psychological fatigue once Hughes is back in the rotation.

I think we’re really going to miss Kirk’s ball handling, but most of all the ball pressure he provides. He’s our best defender with real productivity on the offensive end. The only way we minimize his loss is with excellent play from Rose and Gordon and Thabo forcing turnovers that lead to fast break opportunities.

If we can run, we’ll be fine. If we have to use the half court to get back into games we’re going to lose most of them.

In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.

by NBA Observer on Nov 10, 2008 9:26 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

It might get pretty ugly

if our opponents have big time scoring at the guard position.

In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.

by NBA Observer on Nov 10, 2008 9:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Most opponents have some kind of scoring threat at the 2

This week they’ll face Joe Johnson, Jason Terry/Stackhouse, and Dunleavy Jr. This is Thabo’s chance to shine. If he was ever going to be anything more than a mop-up duty player, he will be the big guard who can play pressure defense for 10-15 minutes a game.

"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"

by Ozzie Montana on Nov 10, 2008 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Pipe dream, but alas...how sweet would Joe Johnson look next to Rose?

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Nov 10, 2008 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

oooooooo

"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury's Head Tattoo

by Belize on Nov 10, 2008 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Very nice

"They wanted me to sacrifice things so we could win." -- Larry Hughes

by Evil Pax on Nov 10, 2008 3:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Dunleavy's still out.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 10, 2008 12:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He's on my fantasy team grrrr

But my point remains, who cares if the opponents have a scoring 2 guard, they all do! Let Thabo do the heavy lifting, and if the rest of the lineup is as active on defense as they were Friday and most of Saturday it’ll be ok.

by Ozzie Montana on Nov 10, 2008 3:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs