Is Tyrus a Bust?
by houstonbull on Nov 6, 2008 2:11 PM CST
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PrintThis blog is so pro-tyrus, we have been amazed by his freakish ability to leap out of the Gym.
But I am starting to question whether this kid will ever 'get' it.
If I could but the manic energy of Noc into this player I would. he needs to focus on defense and rebounding and hustle plays.
But I fear that he will never be the player we want him to be.
Part of that is nobody is telling him what he needs to do. and he is unrealistic about his abilities. I remember hearing about how he wanted to work on his threes during the off season and how when he was drafted he wanted to play small foward. My point is that he wants to be thought of as a skilled player when his skill set at this point should be a defensive stopper and energy player.
He seems to think he needs to make 15 footers to be effective offensively.
We should not be putting him in that position. he needs to play off the ball, I picture a better ben wallace in his prime. That being said we need to pair him with a good offensive threat.
Are you ready to give up on tyrus yet? What type of player do you want him to be?
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well, he'll be considered a bust after this season
the question is whether the Bulls will play him enough to justify that label.
He’s certainly not playing well AFTER 5 GAMES.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 2:19 PM CST reply actions
He could be
I’d like to find out one way or another this season. But even if he is a bust, he’s still better than Aaron Gray, so there’s no reason he should be getting so few minutes.
There are people who pro-Tyrus because of youtube clips, and there
are people who are pro-Tyrus like me who value the substance of Tyrus. People who are understand that he helps the team already as he is. He can’t finish, misses assignments, and makes dumb plays. Despite that the team has been significantly better with him on the court the last two seasons, and what Tyrus already does is a big part of the reason for that. He wins the cost/benefit analysis on defense by creating enough positives to overcome the blown assignments and goal tends. He mitigates the poor shooting by getting to the FT line, and he’s shown that he can keep his turnovers down.
No coach is going to turn him into something he’s not. If he’s going to get better he’s going to be taking a lot of shots. He’s going to be taking a lot of 15-18 footers. All the bitching about Tyrus should be this kind of player or he should be this kind of player has reached a new level of pointlessness. Everyone either accept that he already is an effective player and can be pretty good trying to be the player we wants to be or at least quit complaining about how he’s not this or that.
by Scotter on Nov 6, 2008 3:12 PM CST reply actions 6 recs
exactly
that’s what hurts about this idea that he shouldn’t play because he’s struggling. He’s being replaced by people he’s better than (or at least comperable), with none of the benefit of developing his upside.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 3:29 PM CST up reply actions
Granting his positives outweigh the negatives in general
Can he be effective on this team playing that way?
I tend to think not. With Rose and Deng cemented as two of the starters and two relatively slight centers, are we going to succeed with a guy who puts up the stats of a good hep defender but in fact is not one?
For that reason I think we’re going to have a hell of a time being a good defensive team with him freelancing, even though his freelancing is helpful in the abstract and would be very helpful on a team that had better individual defensive players.
by Sports2 on Nov 6, 2008 3:30 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Does he really freelance that much?
What percentage of plays does he blow, or assignments does he miss, compared to say… Nocioni? Or Gooden? Or Noah? Just curious.
The only somewhat rational answer I can give is "more"
Because it’s the only reason a rational coach would play him less if he’s contributing more in other areas.
I guess if you broke it down, it’d be something like this.
Tyrus disrupts opposing offenses through big plays, but also disrupts your defensive system. Offensively he gives you very little.
Noc disrupts opposing offenses in his own way. Instead of rebounds and blocks, he steals, takes charges, and commits hard, borderline dirty fouls. I don’t know whether he blows more or less assignments than Tyrus. Offensively, he brings more to the table than Tyrus at this point.
Noah, at the moment is by far the best man defender, but he doesn’t really scare anyone or change a lot of plays. Since he’s apparently completely clueless at the moment as to how to play in the scheme (on both sides of the ball) this is probably why he’s behind both of them.
I'm still not buying it.
His great plays stand out because of his athletic ability. I think his bad plays stand out because of that, too. I need more than just an “I think I saw therefore it’s true” argument.
So why is it that three coaches (ok, two coaches and a one dumb-ass henchman)
have looked at this kid and decided their jobs depended on not playing him very much?
Look, I said at the outset I want Tyrus playing more. And I can buy the argument that he’s been effective out there. I’ve made the argument myself!
But we’re getting to the point where the weight of the evidence against him is starting to get pretty overwhelming. I really want to give him every opportunity to succeed. I want to see him get another 10-15 games starting and playing significant minutes even if he screws up pretty routinely. I think we need to do that and I hope it turns out well. But I honestly don’t expect it to.
Because they're three coaches who...
…won’t tolerate any mistakes from a young player and wouldn’t give him/them playing time to work through because his team was supposed to be contending for Eastern Conference Supremacy. (I really do believe this and for a part, I don’t fault Skiles for it.
Another coach was an absolute baffoon.
The third coach STARTS THABO SEFOLOSHA AND FROM MOST REPORTS WILL START LARRY HUGHES WHEN HE COMES BACK!!!!
And these are the ones we’re using to justify not starting a mistake-prone, long-term project? While I disagree w/ Skiles, I can see why he would sit Thomas in the year his team was supposed to finish third in the conference and started off horribly. Boylan was an incompetent idiot from day 1. Del Negro, I’m sorry, is not looking much better. The lineup tinkering of hell gives me this impression. There is absolutely no continuity on this team. My conclusion is that there is no plan.
i think the bulls organization and the BAB community could all be satisfied
with a true 10-15 game stint of 25+ minutes a game for tyrus. let that be the test. if consistent minutes on an every game basis is not enough for him to show something, then it might be time to move forward. my frustration lies in the fact that i still don’t think the bulls really know what they have in tyrus. i know i don’t what he really is. we’ve seen good and bad, but the sample size has remained consistently small.
Cashing checks and having sex.
But coaching/mentoring will help turn him into a better something that he is!
And this is the major point of frustration for us who complain about Tyrus.
houston bull said ..
“Part of that is nobody is telling him what he needs to do. and he is unrealistic about his abilities”
jaina also said into a post ..
" i think he needs guidance.
vinny had said he had no problem with tyrus’ shot selection against boston, but in that game tyrus needed to be told to put the ball on the floor. he shouldn’t be going 2-17 on jump shots"
Our frustration is not centered at Tyrus being more than he is. I never thought of him as an Allstar, but I envision him to at least be a decent player at this stage who knew his strengths and weaknesses and tried to maximize his time on the court utilizing his strengths. And to add to this Tyrus is probably delusional in regards to his skills, this is not so uncommon in the NBA, therefore he needs guidance and direction to help him become the best that he can be.. Not leaving him to himself to figure it out. He might figure it out in 10 years and might not still be playing in the NBA if it results in 25% shooting.
Notice… everyone is speaking in regards to his development, mentoring, guidance.. And it still does’nt appear to be improving.. what the h… is Paxson doing or not doing
I agree w/ this more than I do w/ Scotter.
For the first time… ever.
I think it is possible to get him to be more aggressive going towards the basket and less jump-shooty. Maybe it will never happen, and maybe he’ll never sprint down the court, and maybe he’ll always want to lead a fast break, but I think it’s possible, in a teaching manner, not a sit-yo-ass-down-for-the-rest-of-the-game manner, to do this.
HOWEVER, if he still never gets to this, there’s another aspect of coaching that would help him, mainly: QUIT GIVING HIM THE BALL 15-18 ft AWAY FROM THE BASKET!!! If he’s getting the ball w/in 6 ft of the basket 80% of the time and only 20% on the pick-and-pop as opposed to the reverse (I have no fact to back that up), I think that greatly reduces his natural tendencies and increases his efficiency.
typer1147
don’t jump to conclusion so soon yet…
I still have loads more “ridiculous” posts to write and
also yfbb will continue to call me an “idiot” on many occassions in the future.
I agree, yet I believe the Org. will give up and trade him and someone will help develop him and we’ll speak with a fond envy as we do in regards to Ty1.
I just don't get that with your extreme distaste for 'paxdorf'
how you’re even a fan of the team.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 4:20 PM CST up reply actions
it's not about liking it
and being a fan is a different level than trolling this hellhole.
exult has cynicism to such an extreme that he has no faith they’ll do anything correctly, to the point where logic doesn’t even apply. So why not just wait it out instead of wasting time here.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 4:55 PM CST up reply actions
yfbb
read many of your posts “Gimmicks”, etc ,etc
My opinions are really not much different than yours.
It’s painful to see our team unprepared, for example .. running an offensive like a badly coached high school team. Not passing and everyone gunning without defined roles and not playing to their strengths.
There's a difference between improving what he is and trying to change him.
My problem is with the game thread posters freaking out like Johnny Red Kerr every time Tyrus misses a jumper. Or that believe he should never be taking a shot outside the lane, but yet longed for Josh Smith this summer. Or like houstonbull believe Tyrus should be a Ben Wallace type.
The too many jump shot complaints have been pretty far off base in my opinion, and reflect a serious lack of context. There’s nothing that wrong with his shot mix so far. He’s still taking over 1/2 his FGA’s in the paint, 16 out of 40 at the rim. He’s shooting 1 FTA for every 2 FTA, and is tied with Rose for the team lead in FTA in 48 less minutes. He’s taken a tad too many jumpers, but there is nothing fundamentally wrong with those ratios. Do I think good coaching and a novel idea like consistent playing time might lead to less mistakes and more consistency? Sure. And I think he’ll eventually finish better, but this is roughly who he is. If you can’t accept that then do yourself a favor and just get off the bandwagon completely.
His negatives really are worse than his positives
Those dumb 15 footers he constantly takes breaks any rhythm the Bulls are in offensively. And there isn’t much rhythm to begin with
Effective player, and the team is "significantly better" with him on the court???
Are we watching the same person? Tyrus has UNBELIEVABLE HIGHLIGHT REEL plays in games, maybe 3 to 4 (sometimes more) times a game, but the rest of the time he is out there he looks lost and plays poorly. He does have an occasional good game, but the majority of the time thus far he doesn’t. When I watch the games, I continually see a lot of poor decision making from him. Maybe it could be the coaching he’s had on the Bulls to date, or maybe it is that he is just so young still…. regardless, I just don’t see him having the positive effect on the game to date as you have portrayed it.
I dont think he is a bust
I also dont think he is what this team needs now. If we had an offencive threat inside (who? thats another story), then Ty could take sorta a Dennis Rodman-Type scrappy role, which I think he would thrive in
But the Bulls are so far off that now and I dont see Ty sticking around till it happens.
Imo better to package him once his stock goes back up, and go get something we can use. Noah would fill a similar role anyway
by rquinsee on Nov 6, 2008 3:20 PM CST reply actions
After reading what Thorpe said about
Tyrus this summer – what a great jump shot he has, how his attitude and development are really coming along – I’m not convinced that Tyrus would ever WANT to be a ‘role’ player and just concentrate on defense and rebounding and finishing at the rim. I get the feeling that he’s been really practicing his jumpshot and he’s convinced that he can hit it with regularity…hence the 2-17 against the Celtics. And maybe he hits them all the time in practice, and that’s why Vinny is not upset with him taking the wide open ones. And maybe thats a reason for all of us to be patient with him taking those shots.
I really think Ty just needs to grow up and settle down out there – you can tell his head is just spinning when he has the ball in his hands. His body is rarely balanced and relaxed. Once he learns to do that, I think he’ll be able to hit the 15-18 footer consistently – and paired with a more filled out body that will come with age, he can be a real asset on offense.
by kig on Nov 6, 2008 4:33 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
That's what I think (or hope)
And my concern is he gets prematurely benched, goes back in his shell and never comes out.
i want him to succeed
but the best players still find ways to score even if their shot isn’t falling. after tyrus takes a flagrant from big baby, the next play he gets out of control. i don’t mind if vinny encourages his jump shooting if he also encourages him to get to the basket when his shot’s not falling. that’s what a star does.
I also agree
We all think Tyrus can be a great player because of his athletic ability. But, if the dude is taking 15ft jumpers and missing 80% of them, he is not taking advantage of his natural abilities. It is is 3rd year and I don’t know when and if he will understand what his strengths and weaknesses are. He has a nice stroke and I think you are correct that he doesn’t seem balanced and relaxed when taking them, so the coaching staff needs to convince him to not go to jumpers until he feels comfortable. If he could explode to the basket during the game a couple times before he starts the jumpers, then I think this game plan would work to his advantage. The reason he is not getting playing time is that the Bulls get themselves in a hole and they need offense. Noc is providing offense, so he plays.
No Way!
He went off for 27 and 9 with 3 blocks last night. Oh wait, that was LaMarcus Aldridge. I want Tyrus to succeed, but this trade is going to go down as one of the worst in Bulls’ history.
After I saw Lamarcus Aldridge last night...
I almost cried thinking we could have had that instead of a freak athlete.
agree.
sad thing is, I get that feeling everytime I see Aldridge’s stats. that’s because the guy is mad consistent.
Since the bulls aren’t going anywhere this season anyway, give Tryus 1 more year. At the end of this year either try to move him, or let’s pick up another PF.
by chicago-homesick-blues on Nov 7, 2008 9:13 AM CST up reply actions
LMA isn't a perfect PF -- he doesn't play in the paint well enough for my taste...
………………………. but in a world where the Blazers ain’t gettin’ Chris Bosh, he’ll do.
One question about Tyrus… How the HELL is a PF shooting 30.6%??? Does he think he’s a shooting guard or something?
"I’m glad Sergio played well in pre-season, but he should be getting killed for whining. He ain’t that important to the country of Spain, let alone the Trail Blazers." --Mortimer Pritchard
Updated: 24 and 13 v. Timberwolves...
…………………………….. But that was the softest 13 rebounds you’re ever going to see, I was cussing his mama all night long — until he came up with a big one during crunch time. Still, LMA is not an elite PF at this juncture: no Garnett or Al Jefferson or Boozer or Bosh…
"I’m glad Sergio played well in pre-season, but he should be getting killed for whining. He ain’t that important to the country of Spain, let alone the Trail Blazers." --Mortimer Pritchard
We should have kept Aldridge
My brother and friend both try convincing me Tyrus Thomas is some studd basketball player. Hes not. Hes a good athlete whos head is so far up his ass that he doesnt play to his full potential. Thomas is that guy in high school that knew he was better then everyone else and only talked to the best looking girls and the most popular guys. Going into college he probably expected VIP treatment everywhere he went, and probably got it. Guess what Thomas, your in the NBA. Some of the guys you are playing against can eat you, and with less talent then you have, but with more focus, these guys are ALL much better NBA players then you. Bulls, what were you thinking not taking Aldridge!>!>!>!
WOW WHAT A SEASON!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Nov 7, 2008 11:35 AM CST reply actions
In a word, meh
I agree with Matt that if he doesn’t improve this season, it’s definitely time to give up any big dreams on him. After 5 games into the season, I won’t call him a bust any more than Deng has been a bust so far. There’s a difference between giving a young player minutes to grow, yet still taking him out of the game if he’s really struggling, and playing a guy then taking him out at first sight of trouble. If he’s never going to learn how to get himself out of a funk (by not taking so many jumpers, or having a good game on D if he’s sucking on the other end) then he will always be maddeningly inconsistent.
I maintain the problem with Tyrus is he’s too excited, too eager to go out and get a double-double every game with 5 monster jams. Given by the quotes from Deng and BG, it seems everyone is confused about their role in this offense, and I think that adds to his struggles. His rookie year he was a major asset because his role was defined as “energy man off bench capable of starting.” Since then, he’s been a starting PF who has been buried on the bench for games, a role player who gets spot duty, yet his mistakes are analyzed like a superstar, and now a starter who’s poor play is maximized because the whole team lacks continuity on offense.
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
It seems like Tyrus has become very tentantive this year. He is also rushing all the mid range shots that he has been taking. He doesn’t seem to have that same hunger and drive to attack the rim like he has shown in the past. He may have done a lot of work over the summer to get stronger and improve his shot, but it sure hasn’t showed. If he would look to dunk instead of these finnesse layups he would finish more.
If he will start to attack the rim I think he will become an all star. If he keeps trying to be a big guard then he is a bust. imo
Stick with the plan
Paxson and Del Negro both said that this whole thing was going to be a work in progress when they drafted Rose. I think that the Bulls should start Rose, Gordon, Deng, Thomas, and Noah until the trade deadline and make the decision whether to keep both Noah and Thomas. That gives both of them enough time to develope and know their role.
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