Blog a Bull: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Around SBN: Recapping Granger's Desert Dagger Bar-right-arrows



spread the word

Cleveland Cavaliers 107, Chicago Bulls 93: Gimmicky Garbage

I am so frustrated watching this team, which has no plan from the highest levels of the organization to how they behave on the court. Reinsdorf bungles most things he touches, Paxson has no clue what to do with the roster except draft and stockpile more lottery picks, Vinny is completely searching for anything to work, and the players are showing him nothing really does.

So instead of watching a real basketball team, you instead get a series of gimmicks. And while it's not  fair to expect this team to know how to fit together yet, and the Bulls losing to the Cavs on the road is not unexpected, the gimmicks we've seen are obviously not a way to find something sustainable and successful.

The first one is the continued starting of Thabo Sefolosha. It's a gimmick: he starts over players better than him because he's tall. He can't really play, never really shown he's been able to, was scoreless in 17 minutes tonight. He did have 4 rebounds and assists, but Derrick Rose has to start each game with this pump-faking non-threat next to him, and it puts the team into holes to start the first and 3rd quarter. It was only -2 in the first and -1 in the third, but it's not criminal to see your starters take a lead, and there's been too many stints where Thabo gives them absolutely nothing on offense putting further pressure on Rose with no shooters on the court.

Now that they're put in these deficits, the next gimmick arises: play small. It starts with Nocioni at the 4, then mutates into 3 guards with him, and even then 3 guards with Deng, with the already-small-for-a-center Drew Gooden joining a lot of those combinations. Whatever fools' gold arose after the Orlando game was mined for again...and depending on the perspective they were good enough (that's the 'if you're demented' perspective), as they were able to shoot their way back within single digits. But it's still a gimmick, so even if it works it's not a long-term solution, so who cares?

The worst part is that these deficits and the desire to play small means that Thomas and Noah continue to see their minutes cut. 15 for Thomas, 9 for Noah. Tyrus rushed his only attempt of the game, but I thought he was still helping weakside (as he usually does) and hustling back on defense (I swear Skiles, I saw it). He gets a 2nd foul and doesn't come back in that half. I even saw Vinny literally pat Thomas on the head after he was taken out, so I don't think it was an effort question...either it was the need to go small (of course an athletic 4 like Thomas or Noah could go small too, but it's really 'go Noc'), or saving fouls he wasn't going to use (another gimmick). In the 2nd half they were down so far that Vinny felt he had to keep Noc and Gooden in there for any chance to get back in the game. They wound up unable to do it, and it's another wasted game for Thomas. So consider it two failures for the coaching staff and John Paxson's underdeveloped big men.

But at least we got to see Drew Gooden play 37 minutes and shoot 4-13. This guy is not the missing post player. He's a decent jump-shooter, and then on drives looks nearly as awkward as Thomas. He did a good job early bodying Ilgauskas and taking charges on defense, and the fact that he had to be paired with Nocioni in the frontcourt to end the game isn't really his fault. But he is way too aggressive with his shot, and any good he does only brings the fear that he'll try more of it. He certainly deserves to play, but not this much.

This frontcourt is not that deep, so I never imagined that Thomas and Noah would play so little, especially together. Nocioni played 26 minutes and couldn't follow up his good output on Monday. This is because if he did that all the time, he'd be better than he is. Though Noc also gets some reprieve for being paired with Gooden so much: it's just not a good enough rebounding and defensive frontcourt to be successful, and it showed as they were completely unable to secure defensive rebounds down the stretch. And of course for no reason, Aaron Gray, a walking lurching gimmick in and of himself, was put out there with Hinrich/Gordon/Rose/Deng. Vinny must've landed on poor Aaron in whatever spin-wheel he used to make substitutions tonight.

Some other observations:

  • Gordon had 31 points on 19 shots in 31 minutes. The attempts got a little more crazy as the night went on, but he looked inspired on both ends. He was creating (5 assists and 2 TOs), and even soared for a rebound and a shotblock on defensive possessions. You could tell how shouldering some of the offensive load helps Rose, though I would've preferred more of Rose creating for Gordon than the other way around. Can we just start Gordon already? please?!?
     
  • Hinrich has now had a second straight near-useless night, 2 points in 20 minutes. Though to be fair to him, he had to play the SF for a majority of his time on the court. Again, gimmicks. What happened to the Vinny plan of placing players in roles that gives them a chance to succeed?
     
  • One of the more positive things to take from this game: the reappearance of Luol Deng. He wasn't able to do much in the first half, but he wasn't forcing bad jumpers as a reaction this time. In the 3rd quarter he really found his stroke, and even finished 2-4 on 3-pointers. It wasn't a perfect game (not enough FTAs considering he played 40 minutes), but I think just getting his shooting out of this mega-funk was an important first step.
     
  • One of the aggravating byproducts (the most important thing was the tanking of the game) of the Gooden/Nocioni frontcourt was how Ben Wallace was able to rebound amongst it. It was too bad, as I enjoyed some classic Wallace awfulness, including Mike Brown using him to screen 24 feet away from the rim.
     
  • The Cavs did use some small ball themselves if the point was to bait them into it. But they have LeBron and the lead. And Varejao is a better finisher than Gooden or Noc.
  • About that: they couldn't finish when Rose was finding them inside. Gooden decided to drive into the defense for no reason, and Noc just jumped and flailed. Thomas and Noah should be able to convert this better, though the way Thomas has finished inside the past season I can't be so sure. At least he'd get fouled.
     
  • One accidentally positive thing the 3-guard lineup did was get James to turn his ankle. Then on 2 possessions where James was hobbled on the other end, Hinrich had a TO (led to a cherry-picked basket by James) and Gordon followed by almost turning the ball over himself.
  • Before resorting to gimmick-ball, I thought the offense was making a concerted effort to move off the ball to start the game. But the Cavs are a very good defensive team. The Bulls also tried to run as much as they could, which is always nice.
     
  • Oh yeah, Derrick Rose. He's still awesome. Please help him, Bulls.

 

0 recs | Comment 245 comments | Digg!

Read Related

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Yay

Derrick Rose only positive of the game!

by Option27 on Nov 5, 2008 11:37 PM CST   0 recs

thanks for not reading.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 5, 2008 11:40 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

sorry

forgot to add :)

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 5, 2008 11:41 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Great Post

-Derrick is proving his skills are not a fluke. (and that the rest of our team is nowhere near his league)
-Gordon’s got a chip on his shoulder (in a very good way)
-Deng was starting to worry me until he finally showed up yesterday
-(Gooden/Tyrus/Noah at the 4) I know that Tyrus and Noah are young, but they need to learn how to finish around the rim, both Noah and Tyrus looked like old ladies trying to dunk.
-We need a real Center!!!!

we have a lot of decent depth on the bench, and I would be willing to trade most of the rest for a center ala cartwright in the mj era….

Viable trade bait: Hinrich, Thabo, Nocioni, even Noah (I would add Huges, but only Washington would seriously consider wanting him)

I think we could compete with Rose NOW if we got a real center who could finish around the rim.

what excites me about this is that I’ve seen Paxson respond to the team’s needs once it’s clear to him.

and the more Rose plays, the more obvious this should be.

We got one star and 2 very good supporting players in Deng and Gordon.

Build on that Johnny boy.

by gman2849 on Nov 6, 2008 12:27 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Except...

He disappeared in the 4th quarter tonight.

"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson

by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 6, 2008 12:06 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Didn't he sit out half of it?

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Nov 6, 2008 12:07 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Yep...

Del Negro is still learning how to coach…but Kirk and Gooden were out there…

"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson

by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 6, 2008 12:09 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

And they kept running that stupid set

where Gordon takes over pg and the best player on the team goes and waits in the corner to run back on defense.

by CrashDavis on Nov 6, 2008 10:02 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Actually,

I was encouraged because Derrick got 20/7 on what looked like a very average night for him after that hot start. Those were layups he normally makes.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Nov 6, 2008 7:16 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Fantastic post.

I can’t figure out what I’m more infuriated by:

A) The mess that Pax has created
B) The fact that Vinny is completely clueless

Since Pax hired Vinny, I guess I have to go with A. Because it appears that Vinny is also a part of the mess. I feel bad that he has to deal with this trainwreck roster, but he should be able to do better regardless of experience.

Why in the world were our most active, athletic shotblockers and arguably our best rebounders (Tyrus and Noah) only playing spot minutes tonight when we were getting abused inside? LeBron was having his way in the paint all night because, guess what? THERE WAS NO ONE TO GET IN HIS WAY! You think Drew Gooden and Andres Nocioni are going to be able to alter his shot? Hell no.

The Freaking Corpse was getting offensive boards all night. You think that happens if we actually have guys out there who can jump? Doubtful. I’m just angry because it’s like our coaching staff doesn’t even want the team to win. It’s really tough to watch. Nauseating, actually.

Yes, this roster is a disaster, but come on…it’s on the coach to mitigate this somewhat. It’s not that hard, is it?

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Nov 5, 2008 11:50 PM CST   0 recs

Totally, but imo the roster wouldn't be such a disaster at all

If the players we had were used correctly. Having our best offensive guard start the games for one thing, and having our two best bigs actually on the court would also help.

The disaster is how our ‘assets’ are being used, unfortunately – Not that the roster is perfect or anything..

by rquinsee on Nov 6, 2008 12:09 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Pax could still make the roster more 'coach-proof'

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 12:12 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Paxson needs to make this roster more coach proof.

He has until mid February to begin the overhall of this roster..a deal must be made by the deadline…

"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson

by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 6, 2008 12:14 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

sadly it wastes a half a season this way

these problems were obvious heading into the season. His desire for every player to have ‘certainty’ is a problem. “we can’t deal Kirk if BG doesn’t sign long-term”. I think it’s worth the risk, Pax.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 12:21 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Honestly though...

Kirk is undersized and struggles to play the 2. Now using him as a SF? On Lebron James?

VDN is waaaaaay over his head.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Nov 6, 2008 7:21 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Skiles put Duhon on LeBron

so I suspect the roster is forcing our coaches to do these outlanding things rather than their own coaching incompetence.

by messwiththebull on Nov 6, 2008 8:26 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

It was a bad idea then, too;

and I was hoping getting a new coach meant we wouldn’t be replicating the old one’s mistakes. Unfortunately, we are: early hooks for T2, benching Noah, midget ball.

It is a reflection of an imbalanced roster – no doubt. But what the hell? Just play your three guards: Rose, Gordon, Kirk. Albeit not at the same time.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Nov 6, 2008 8:41 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Im starting to think...

…maybe these players (TT, Thabo, Noah) may actually be at fault for their benchings (even those dating back to the Skiles era).

by PatBull on Nov 6, 2008 8:40 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Exactly. That's what a competent GM would do in a situation like this.

But I guess that’s too much to ask. Hand-sitting is much more fun, clearly.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Nov 6, 2008 12:25 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

VDN's probably got a lot of folks in his ear

1. Whatever his own judgements are
2. The players, who don’t seem to be buying what he’s selling
3. Whatever Pax and Reinsdorf are telling him about who should be playing and what he should be doing.

That’s a lot of agendas to balance.

by Sports2 on Nov 6, 2008 6:44 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Frustration really beginning to set in

1.Could this group really be worst half-court offensive team in history?
2. Anyone not named Rose, BG, or Deng can and should be traded for someone, ANYONE who can finish with authority around the rim.

by Just got mugged by Pete Myers on Nov 5, 2008 11:57 PM CST   0 recs

Incredible username. Please post more.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Nov 5, 2008 11:58 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Thank you, and I will.

I created it when ol Petey was still sitting on the bench, but it’s still very much an idea that’s in play.

by Just got mugged by Pete Myers on Nov 6, 2008 12:04 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

he's still there

just a row behind.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 12:12 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Something tells me his presence back there

makes Aaron Gray’s neck hairs stand on end.

"That was a great play by me."-Champ Bailey

by Just got mugged by Pete Myers on Nov 6, 2008 12:19 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

In the Bulls program

he’s listed as an assistant coach…

by Edicus2288i on Nov 6, 2008 1:10 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

They need to trade Hinrich NOW

as i’ve been saying, the guy is useless without the ball. And when you give him the ball he pounds into the ground for 15 seconds. His defense is overrated. He is a streak shooter. Every time I see him come off the bench before Gordon I want to puke.

Hinrich has no role and no future on this team. He knows it, we know it, PaxDorf better figure it out, and get what they can, while they can.

by DangerMouse on Nov 6, 2008 12:00 AM CST   1 recs

Agreed.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Nov 6, 2008 12:03 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

It's gotta happen,

but there’s a snag.
Hinrich would arguable get the biggest return in any trade, but trading BG would make sense too, given the fact that he’s most likely gone after this season. What to do, what to do…

by Just got mugged by Pete Myers on Nov 6, 2008 12:08 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

hinrich and bg aren't interchangeable

if/when BG leaves, Kirk Hinrich will not be an adequate replacement for what Gordon brings. So it doesn’t make any sense to try and keep Hinrich as a contingency for Gordon. He isn’t going to score, he isn’t going to give you the 3pt shooting, he is nowhere near the threat at the offensive end, and he can’t play with Rose. None of that changes whether Gordon is here or not.

by DangerMouse on Nov 6, 2008 12:11 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

So then best-case scenario

would be to trade Hinrich and some spare parts for a legit, two-way SG, and bite the bullet when it comes to BG in the offseason.

"That was a great play by me."-Champ Bailey

by Just got mugged by Pete Myers on Nov 6, 2008 12:15 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

who are these legit two-way SGs

and how can that package get him?

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 12:21 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Sadly,

the best-case scenario I speak of involves Pax drinking a few fellow GM’s under the table.

"That was a great play by me."-Champ Bailey

by Just got mugged by Pete Myers on Nov 6, 2008 12:23 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

even after he did

he’d have to call reinsdorf in to check that the GM is actually under the table.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 12:28 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

There aren't a lot.

The best I can think of would be Martell Webster. Get him and some salary relief so re-signing Gordon is an option.

That way we’ve at least got our bases covered. We sign up Ben if we can/should, and if not, we’ve got a young 2/3 we can plug in at a reasonable price.

by Sports2 on Nov 6, 2008 6:48 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

The draft is probably the only shot

and it looks like we’ll get that shot.

by messwiththebull on Nov 6, 2008 8:27 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

What package is needed?

I thought we were just waiting for Hughes’s shoulder to heal for the season to really start.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Nov 6, 2008 8:36 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Agreed

Hinrich is a very expensive luxury w Rose here, and BG’s probably gone anyway. I’d definitely be looking at Krause’s early MJ stategy and stockpile some picks. Who knows, we might come up with a future announcer like Stacy! I’d think a package that includes Hinrich and Gordon could be very attractive to the right team, w BG an expiring super sub and Kirk a serviceable veteran pg. We’ve got #1 and #3 of a big three; how to acquire Robin, there’s the $64,000 question.

by California Al on Nov 6, 2008 9:45 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Isn't this supposed to be a craptacular draft?

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Nov 6, 2008 10:22 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

outside of the top 4,

yes, it’s truly awful.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Nov 6, 2008 10:39 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Eh....

I want to see Derozan and Mullins play before I dismiss them. Harden I saw twice last year and he shocked me – I have no idea why people assume he’s unathletic. And Griffin is an animal. I saw him quite a bit last year…the athleticism, strength, intensity and strength of that kid is rare.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Nov 6, 2008 4:21 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

He has ...

DOUBLE STRENGTH!

by Prevenge on Nov 6, 2008 9:13 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

LOL

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Nov 6, 2008 9:21 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

sad but true

Pax just has to accept that Ben Gordon probably wont be here next year, and that Kirk also doesnt fit into the future plans

Best bet for pax would be to throw all the chips out on the table now, take a gamble for once.

by rquinsee on Nov 6, 2008 12:16 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

The odds of Gordon being here next year depend greatly on what happens this year

I mean, if the Bulls are going to play him as the 7th man no matter what, then he’s going to tell them no way.

If they start him and give him a fair shot at having a long-run future here, I’d guess the odds of him signing go up quite a bit.

by Sports2 on Nov 6, 2008 6:50 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Trade Hinrich for a big or something.

Or trade him for two competent-but-not-that-great guards. Like… Webster and Blake/Rodriguez???

by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 8:20 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Too many guards?

I count Rose, Gordon, Hinrich…. Who are these others you talk of?

by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 8:24 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

If they're going to start Thabo, then Hughes will most definitley be starting when he's back

"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"

by Ozzie Montana on Nov 6, 2008 12:13 AM CST   0 recs

i hate to say it but

I’d rather have Hughes chuck than Thabo. Sometimes Hughe’s shots actually go in.

Thabo Sefolosha: His last name sounds like a disease, and his game IS a disease.

by chibullsfan03 on Nov 6, 2008 12:26 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Once out of eight to ten games.

At least Thabo has a chance of keeping his shot number to a minimum if he isn’t going to make them anyway. Hughes will keep shooting, make them or not. And most often it is not. I don’t want either to start preferably.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Nov 6, 2008 8:18 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I think you are right

and I hope Kirk is in Pax’s office as we speak begging to be traded and I hope Pax makes it happen as soon as possible.

by sue369 on Nov 6, 2008 2:01 PM CST to parent up   1 recs

Exactly! Hughes was supposed to start but he got hurt. Hinrich was to be the first guard off the bench.

They cannot reward Gordon (and in fact must punish him) for not signing as a warning to the other draftees. So he’s #7 in the lineup too!

That contributes to the slow starts and the small lineup to try to catch up. Also, exposes the lack of scoring ability in the front line.

by hhirb on Nov 6, 2008 3:17 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

hahahhahah

dude(dudette), that was hilarious satire

by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 4:03 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Not satire. That's the way big business works!

Seriously! Can’t let the inmates run the asylum!

Fans show up anyway—particularly with Rose around for the extended future.

by hhirb on Nov 6, 2008 8:57 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

If Hughes starts at ANY POINT IN THIS SEASON

The revolt against VDN will start.
We need some glue to glue his ass to the bench. No. NO HUGHES.

by Prevenge on Nov 6, 2008 3:30 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I'm fully prepared for it

yet I will still be furious :)

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 3:31 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Pax needs to make a trade or be fired. Clear out some of these garbage players.

Thabo, Kirk, and Noce should get packaged. Even if it’s for garbage. They aren’t providing much and they are making things too hard on Vinny because he feels obligated to play him. Now, Vinny should know better and not play him, but he clearly doesn’t, so Pax needs to take his toys away.

by fundamentallysound on Nov 6, 2008 12:28 AM CST   0 recs

and by garbage I mean guys on bloated contracts that won't demand time (paging Stephon Marbury)

we could trade those guys for Steph and buy him out. I honestly wouldn’t mind at all at this point.

by fundamentallysound on Nov 6, 2008 12:29 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

his contract expires after this season, correct?

Thabo Sefolosha: His last name sounds like a disease, and his game IS one.

by chibullsfan03 on Nov 6, 2008 12:31 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

if I recall correctly D'Antoni really liked Thabo and Kirk and I'm sure he could use a no defense

playing SF/PF tweener who likes to chuck from deep in that “system” of his.

by fundamentallysound on Nov 6, 2008 12:32 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

That "system"

you speak of would look a whole lot better than Vinny’s does right now. Hmmm, if only D’Antoni had been interested in the Bulls vacancy…

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Nov 6, 2008 12:39 AM CST to parent up   0 recs