Cleveland Cavaliers 107, Chicago Bulls 93: Gimmicky Garbage
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 5, 2008 11:25 PM CST
245 comments
I am so frustrated watching this team, which has no plan from the highest levels of the organization to how they behave on the court. Reinsdorf bungles most things he touches, Paxson has no clue what to do with the roster except draft and stockpile more lottery picks, Vinny is completely searching for anything to work, and the players are showing him nothing really does.
So instead of watching a real basketball team, you instead get a series of gimmicks. And while it's not fair to expect this team to know how to fit together yet, and the Bulls losing to the Cavs on the road is not unexpected, the gimmicks we've seen are obviously not a way to find something sustainable and successful.
The first one is the continued starting of Thabo Sefolosha. It's a gimmick: he starts over players better than him because he's tall. He can't really play, never really shown he's been able to, was scoreless in 17 minutes tonight. He did have 4 rebounds and assists, but Derrick Rose has to start each game with this pump-faking non-threat next to him, and it puts the team into holes to start the first and 3rd quarter. It was only -2 in the first and -1 in the third, but it's not criminal to see your starters take a lead, and there's been too many stints where Thabo gives them absolutely nothing on offense putting further pressure on Rose with no shooters on the court.
Now that they're put in these deficits, the next gimmick arises: play small. It starts with Nocioni at the 4, then mutates into 3 guards with him, and even then 3 guards with Deng, with the already-small-for-a-center Drew Gooden joining a lot of those combinations. Whatever fools' gold arose after the Orlando game was mined for again...and depending on the perspective they were good enough (that's the 'if you're demented' perspective), as they were able to shoot their way back within single digits. But it's still a gimmick, so even if it works it's not a long-term solution, so who cares?
The worst part is that these deficits and the desire to play small means that Thomas and Noah continue to see their minutes cut. 15 for Thomas, 9 for Noah. Tyrus rushed his only attempt of the game, but I thought he was still helping weakside (as he usually does) and hustling back on defense (I swear Skiles, I saw it). He gets a 2nd foul and doesn't come back in that half. I even saw Vinny literally pat Thomas on the head after he was taken out, so I don't think it was an effort question...either it was the need to go small (of course an athletic 4 like Thomas or Noah could go small too, but it's really 'go Noc'), or saving fouls he wasn't going to use (another gimmick). In the 2nd half they were down so far that Vinny felt he had to keep Noc and Gooden in there for any chance to get back in the game. They wound up unable to do it, and it's another wasted game for Thomas. So consider it two failures for the coaching staff and John Paxson's underdeveloped big men.
But at least we got to see Drew Gooden play 37 minutes and shoot 4-13. This guy is not the missing post player. He's a decent jump-shooter, and then on drives looks nearly as awkward as Thomas. He did a good job early bodying Ilgauskas and taking charges on defense, and the fact that he had to be paired with Nocioni in the frontcourt to end the game isn't really his fault. But he is way too aggressive with his shot, and any good he does only brings the fear that he'll try more of it. He certainly deserves to play, but not this much.
This frontcourt is not that deep, so I never imagined that Thomas and Noah would play so little, especially together. Nocioni played 26 minutes and couldn't follow up his good output on Monday. This is because if he did that all the time, he'd be better than he is. Though Noc also gets some reprieve for being paired with Gooden so much: it's just not a good enough rebounding and defensive frontcourt to be successful, and it showed as they were completely unable to secure defensive rebounds down the stretch. And of course for no reason, Aaron Gray, a walking lurching gimmick in and of himself, was put out there with Hinrich/Gordon/Rose/Deng. Vinny must've landed on poor Aaron in whatever spin-wheel he used to make substitutions tonight.
Some other observations:
- Gordon had 31 points on 19 shots in 31 minutes. The attempts got a little more crazy as the night went on, but he looked inspired on both ends. He was creating (5 assists and 2 TOs), and even soared for a rebound and a shotblock on defensive possessions. You could tell how shouldering some of the offensive load helps Rose, though I would've preferred more of Rose creating for Gordon than the other way around. Can we just start Gordon already? please?!?
- Hinrich has now had a second straight near-useless night, 2 points in 20 minutes. Though to be fair to him, he had to play the SF for a majority of his time on the court. Again, gimmicks. What happened to the Vinny plan of placing players in roles that gives them a chance to succeed?
- One of the more positive things to take from this game: the reappearance of Luol Deng. He wasn't able to do much in the first half, but he wasn't forcing bad jumpers as a reaction this time. In the 3rd quarter he really found his stroke, and even finished 2-4 on 3-pointers. It wasn't a perfect game (not enough FTAs considering he played 40 minutes), but I think just getting his shooting out of this mega-funk was an important first step.
- One of the aggravating byproducts (the most important thing was the tanking of the game) of the Gooden/Nocioni frontcourt was how Ben Wallace was able to rebound amongst it. It was too bad, as I enjoyed some classic Wallace awfulness, including Mike Brown using him to screen 24 feet away from the rim.
- The Cavs did use some small ball themselves if the point was to bait them into it. But they have LeBron and the lead. And Varejao is a better finisher than Gooden or Noc.
- About that: they couldn't finish when Rose was finding them inside. Gooden decided to drive into the defense for no reason, and Noc just jumped and flailed. Thomas and Noah should be able to convert this better, though the way Thomas has finished inside the past season I can't be so sure. At least he'd get fouled.
- One accidentally positive thing the 3-guard lineup did was get James to turn his ankle. Then on 2 possessions where James was hobbled on the other end, Hinrich had a TO (led to a cherry-picked basket by James) and Gordon followed by almost turning the ball over himself.
- Before resorting to gimmick-ball, I thought the offense was making a concerted effort to move off the ball to start the game. But the Cavs are a very good defensive team. The Bulls also tried to run as much as they could, which is always nice.
- Oh yeah, Derrick Rose. He's still awesome. Please help him, Bulls.
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Yay
Derrick Rose only positive of the game!
by Option27 on Nov 5, 2008 11:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
thanks for not reading.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 5, 2008 11:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
sorry
forgot to add :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 5, 2008 11:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that was the best trade idea I've seen here in a while
:)
by Option27 on Nov 6, 2008 2:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
what trade idea are you referring to?
by fundamentallysound on Nov 6, 2008 11:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's weird
I replied to the one below involving the 3 for 1 (Marbury)
by Option27 on Nov 6, 2008 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Great Post
-Derrick is proving his skills are not a fluke. (and that the rest of our team is nowhere near his league)
-Gordon’s got a chip on his shoulder (in a very good way)
-Deng was starting to worry me until he finally showed up yesterday
-(Gooden/Tyrus/Noah at the 4) I know that Tyrus and Noah are young, but they need to learn how to finish around the rim, both Noah and Tyrus looked like old ladies trying to dunk.
-We need a real Center!!!!
we have a lot of decent depth on the bench, and I would be willing to trade most of the rest for a center ala cartwright in the mj era….
Viable trade bait: Hinrich, Thabo, Nocioni, even Noah (I would add Huges, but only Washington would seriously consider wanting him)
I think we could compete with Rose NOW if we got a real center who could finish around the rim.
what excites me about this is that I’ve seen Paxson respond to the team’s needs once it’s clear to him.
and the more Rose plays, the more obvious this should be.
We got one star and 2 very good supporting players in Deng and Gordon.
Build on that Johnny boy.
by gman2849 on Nov 6, 2008 12:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Except...
He disappeared in the 4th quarter tonight.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 6, 2008 12:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't he sit out half of it?
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Nov 6, 2008 12:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep...
Del Negro is still learning how to coach…but Kirk and Gooden were out there…
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 6, 2008 12:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And they kept running that stupid set
where Gordon takes over pg and the best player on the team goes and waits in the corner to run back on defense.
by CrashDavis on Nov 6, 2008 10:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fantastic post.
I can’t figure out what I’m more infuriated by:
A) The mess that Pax has created
B) The fact that Vinny is completely clueless
Since Pax hired Vinny, I guess I have to go with A. Because it appears that Vinny is also a part of the mess. I feel bad that he has to deal with this trainwreck roster, but he should be able to do better regardless of experience.
Why in the world were our most active, athletic shotblockers and arguably our best rebounders (Tyrus and Noah) only playing spot minutes tonight when we were getting abused inside? LeBron was having his way in the paint all night because, guess what? THERE WAS NO ONE TO GET IN HIS WAY! You think Drew Gooden and Andres Nocioni are going to be able to alter his shot? Hell no.
The Freaking Corpse was getting offensive boards all night. You think that happens if we actually have guys out there who can jump? Doubtful. I’m just angry because it’s like our coaching staff doesn’t even want the team to win. It’s really tough to watch. Nauseating, actually.
Yes, this roster is a disaster, but come on…it’s on the coach to mitigate this somewhat. It’s not that hard, is it?
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Nov 5, 2008 11:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Totally, but imo the roster wouldn't be such a disaster at all
If the players we had were used correctly. Having our best offensive guard start the games for one thing, and having our two best bigs actually on the court would also help.
The disaster is how our ‘assets’ are being used, unfortunately – Not that the roster is perfect or anything..
by rquinsee on Nov 6, 2008 12:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Pax could still make the roster more 'coach-proof'
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 12:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Paxson needs to make this roster more coach proof.
He has until mid February to begin the overhall of this roster..a deal must be made by the deadline…
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 6, 2008 12:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
sadly it wastes a half a season this way
these problems were obvious heading into the season. His desire for every player to have ‘certainty’ is a problem. “we can’t deal Kirk if BG doesn’t sign long-term”. I think it’s worth the risk, Pax.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 12:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly though...
Kirk is undersized and struggles to play the 2. Now using him as a SF? On Lebron James?
VDN is waaaaaay over his head.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Nov 6, 2008 7:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Skiles put Duhon on LeBron
so I suspect the roster is forcing our coaches to do these outlanding things rather than their own coaching incompetence.
by messwiththebull on Nov 6, 2008 8:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It was a bad idea then, too;
and I was hoping getting a new coach meant we wouldn’t be replicating the old one’s mistakes. Unfortunately, we are: early hooks for T2, benching Noah, midget ball.
It is a reflection of an imbalanced roster – no doubt. But what the hell? Just play your three guards: Rose, Gordon, Kirk. Albeit not at the same time.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Nov 6, 2008 8:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Im starting to think...
…maybe these players (TT, Thabo, Noah) may actually be at fault for their benchings (even those dating back to the Skiles era).
by PatBull on Nov 6, 2008 8:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. That's what a competent GM would do in a situation like this.
But I guess that’s too much to ask. Hand-sitting is much more fun, clearly.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Nov 6, 2008 12:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
VDN's probably got a lot of folks in his ear
1. Whatever his own judgements are
2. The players, who don’t seem to be buying what he’s selling
3. Whatever Pax and Reinsdorf are telling him about who should be playing and what he should be doing.
That’s a lot of agendas to balance.
by Sports2 on Nov 6, 2008 6:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Frustration really beginning to set in
1.Could this group really be worst half-court offensive team in history?
2. Anyone not named Rose, BG, or Deng can and should be traded for someone, ANYONE who can finish with authority around the rim.
by Just got mugged by Pete Myers on Nov 5, 2008 11:57 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Incredible username. Please post more.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Nov 5, 2008 11:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you, and I will.
I created it when ol Petey was still sitting on the bench, but it’s still very much an idea that’s in play.
by Just got mugged by Pete Myers on Nov 6, 2008 12:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
he's still there
just a row behind.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 12:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Something tells me his presence back there
makes Aaron Gray’s neck hairs stand on end.
"That was a great play by me."-Champ Bailey
by Just got mugged by Pete Myers on Nov 6, 2008 12:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
In the Bulls program
he’s listed as an assistant coach…
by Edicus2288i on Nov 6, 2008 1:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They need to trade Hinrich NOW
as i’ve been saying, the guy is useless without the ball. And when you give him the ball he pounds into the ground for 15 seconds. His defense is overrated. He is a streak shooter. Every time I see him come off the bench before Gordon I want to puke.
Hinrich has no role and no future on this team. He knows it, we know it, PaxDorf better figure it out, and get what they can, while they can.
by DangerMouse on Nov 6, 2008 12:00 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
It's gotta happen,
but there’s a snag.
Hinrich would arguable get the biggest return in any trade, but trading BG would make sense too, given the fact that he’s most likely gone after this season. What to do, what to do…
by Just got mugged by Pete Myers on Nov 6, 2008 12:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
hinrich and bg aren't interchangeable
if/when BG leaves, Kirk Hinrich will not be an adequate replacement for what Gordon brings. So it doesn’t make any sense to try and keep Hinrich as a contingency for Gordon. He isn’t going to score, he isn’t going to give you the 3pt shooting, he is nowhere near the threat at the offensive end, and he can’t play with Rose. None of that changes whether Gordon is here or not.
by DangerMouse on Nov 6, 2008 12:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So then best-case scenario
would be to trade Hinrich and some spare parts for a legit, two-way SG, and bite the bullet when it comes to BG in the offseason.
"That was a great play by me."-Champ Bailey
by Just got mugged by Pete Myers on Nov 6, 2008 12:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
who are these legit two-way SGs
and how can that package get him?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 12:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sadly,
the best-case scenario I speak of involves Pax drinking a few fellow GM’s under the table.
"That was a great play by me."-Champ Bailey
by Just got mugged by Pete Myers on Nov 6, 2008 12:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
even after he did
he’d have to call reinsdorf in to check that the GM is actually under the table.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 12:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There aren't a lot.
The best I can think of would be Martell Webster. Get him and some salary relief so re-signing Gordon is an option.
That way we’ve at least got our bases covered. We sign up Ben if we can/should, and if not, we’ve got a young 2/3 we can plug in at a reasonable price.
by Sports2 on Nov 6, 2008 6:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The draft is probably the only shot
and it looks like we’ll get that shot.
by messwiththebull on Nov 6, 2008 8:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What package is needed?
I thought we were just waiting for Hughes’s shoulder to heal for the season to really start.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Nov 6, 2008 8:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Hinrich is a very expensive luxury w Rose here, and BG’s probably gone anyway. I’d definitely be looking at Krause’s early MJ stategy and stockpile some picks. Who knows, we might come up with a future announcer like Stacy! I’d think a package that includes Hinrich and Gordon could be very attractive to the right team, w BG an expiring super sub and Kirk a serviceable veteran pg. We’ve got #1 and #3 of a big three; how to acquire Robin, there’s the $64,000 question.
by California Al on Nov 6, 2008 9:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Twolves 1st round pick that LAC has!!
by hlac on Nov 6, 2008 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't this supposed to be a craptacular draft?
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Nov 6, 2008 10:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
outside of the top 4,
yes, it’s truly awful.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Nov 6, 2008 10:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Eh....
I want to see Derozan and Mullins play before I dismiss them. Harden I saw twice last year and he shocked me – I have no idea why people assume he’s unathletic. And Griffin is an animal. I saw him quite a bit last year…the athleticism, strength, intensity and strength of that kid is rare.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Nov 6, 2008 4:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
sad but true
Pax just has to accept that Ben Gordon probably wont be here next year, and that Kirk also doesnt fit into the future plans
Best bet for pax would be to throw all the chips out on the table now, take a gamble for once.
by rquinsee on Nov 6, 2008 12:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The odds of Gordon being here next year depend greatly on what happens this year
I mean, if the Bulls are going to play him as the 7th man no matter what, then he’s going to tell them no way.
If they start him and give him a fair shot at having a long-run future here, I’d guess the odds of him signing go up quite a bit.
by Sports2 on Nov 6, 2008 6:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Trade Hinrich for a big or something.
Or trade him for two competent-but-not-that-great guards. Like… Webster and Blake/Rodriguez???
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 8:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rodriguez will be in Portland for awhile
I have given up on Ty Thomas
by Knowledge32 on Nov 6, 2008 8:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Too many guards?
I count Rose, Gordon, Hinrich…. Who are these others you talk of?
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 8:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If they're going to start Thabo, then Hughes will most definitley be starting when he's back
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Nov 6, 2008 12:13 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
there's no doubt he will and get at least 20 minutes if not 25
by Tobo on Nov 6, 2008 12:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i hate to say it but
I’d rather have Hughes chuck than Thabo. Sometimes Hughe’s shots actually go in.
Thabo Sefolosha: His last name sounds like a disease, and his game IS a disease.
by chibullsfan03 on Nov 6, 2008 12:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Once out of eight to ten games.
At least Thabo has a chance of keeping his shot number to a minimum if he isn’t going to make them anyway. Hughes will keep shooting, make them or not. And most often it is not. I don’t want either to start preferably.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Nov 6, 2008 8:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you are right
and I hope Kirk is in Pax’s office as we speak begging to be traded and I hope Pax makes it happen as soon as possible.
by sue369 on Nov 6, 2008 2:01 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly! Hughes was supposed to start but he got hurt. Hinrich was to be the first guard off the bench.
They cannot reward Gordon (and in fact must punish him) for not signing as a warning to the other draftees. So he’s #7 in the lineup too!
That contributes to the slow starts and the small lineup to try to catch up. Also, exposes the lack of scoring ability in the front line.
by hhirb on Nov 6, 2008 3:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
hahahhahah
dude(dudette), that was hilarious satire
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 4:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not satire. That's the way big business works!
Seriously! Can’t let the inmates run the asylum!
Fans show up anyway—particularly with Rose around for the extended future.
by hhirb on Nov 6, 2008 8:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If Hughes starts at ANY POINT IN THIS SEASON
The revolt against VDN will start.
We need some glue to glue his ass to the bench. No. NO HUGHES.
by Prevenge on Nov 6, 2008 3:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm fully prepared for it
yet I will still be furious :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 3:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Pax needs to make a trade or be fired. Clear out some of these garbage players.
Thabo, Kirk, and Noce should get packaged. Even if it’s for garbage. They aren’t providing much and they are making things too hard on Vinny because he feels obligated to play him. Now, Vinny should know better and not play him, but he clearly doesn’t, so Pax needs to take his toys away.
by fundamentallysound on Nov 6, 2008 12:28 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
and by garbage I mean guys on bloated contracts that won't demand time (paging Stephon Marbury)
we could trade those guys for Steph and buy him out. I honestly wouldn’t mind at all at this point.
by fundamentallysound on Nov 6, 2008 12:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
his contract expires after this season, correct?
Thabo Sefolosha: His last name sounds like a disease, and his game IS one.
by chibullsfan03 on Nov 6, 2008 12:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
if I recall correctly D'Antoni really liked Thabo and Kirk and I'm sure he could use a no defense
playing SF/PF tweener who likes to chuck from deep in that “system” of his.
by fundamentallysound on Nov 6, 2008 12:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That "system"
you speak of would look a whole lot better than Vinny’s does right now. Hmmm, if only D’Antoni had been interested in the Bulls vacancy…
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Nov 6, 2008 12:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't mean to belittle D'Antoni's system, I just was joking about the lack of D
in it, but certainly it’s offensive genius is not to be underestimated. Also, the subtle defensive strategy of not fouling and thus not sending guys to the line and getting yourself into the penalty is pretty neat, even it doesn’t balance out all those easy layups. It counteracts that effect a little bit.
by fundamentallysound on Nov 6, 2008 12:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
if D'Antoni liked these guys so much
why couldn’t he have waited 1 week and find out we’d just won the newest best point gaurd?
oh yea… money. damn.
Thabo Sefolosha: His last name sounds like a disease, and his ballgame IS one.
by chibullsfan03 on Nov 6, 2008 12:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Revisionist history
The Bulls had a 1.9% chance of winning the lottery. Nobody in the world expected the Bulls to end up with Rose. Pax cared so little about the draft lottery that he sent Steve Schanwald there. D’Antoni had no way of knowing the Bulls would get him, and the Knicks had a much better chance of winning the lottery.
by Big D on Nov 6, 2008 4:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, though, am I crazy?
Who here wouldn’t do this trade?
Clear out Thabo, Nocioni, and Kirk and get back Marbury. Either buy Marbury out or allow him to play 10 – 12 minutes a game when Derrick is tired. We’d have his big contract coming off the books next year (to throw money at BG, assuming he gets his shit together, or sign someone else) and then Larry’s big contract coming off the books in the 2010 summer. It doesn’t sound like that bad of a plan does it?
I don’t know if the Knicks do it though. They get three decent players who could do very well in Mike D’s system, but they might prefer to use that $20 million on some other parts or just leave it and try to cut payroll until 2010. But it’s worth making that call, no?
by fundamentallysound on Nov 6, 2008 12:47 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
As much as the salary aspect is tempting,
this transaction would cause two major things to happen to this Bulls team that trouble me.
1. With Noc gone, it would pretty much force Michael Ruffin into action.
2. Again, with Noc gone, the Bulls would be softer than Erick Dampier. I actually like how every opposing player hates his guts. It’s always a positive thing to have one of those guys around.
"That was a great play by me."-Champ Bailey
by Just got mugged by Pete Myers on Nov 6, 2008 1:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
WE NEED TO KEEP NOCIONI
He seems to be the only player on this team that understands it’s Rose’s team.
He’s a role player, and he knows it.
And he’s a pretty dam good one.
Besides Rose and him play pretty well together.
by Edicus2288i on Nov 6, 2008 1:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Bulls
are softer than Eric Dampier.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Nov 6, 2008 8:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
always hilarious
(no, it’s not)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 9:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I prefer Lasagna Flop myself
when bashing Maverick centers.
by messwiththebull on Nov 6, 2008 9:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If we're seriously rebuilding,
then this trade is great….but if we want to win and get to the playoff, then I don’t see this happening
"Worker bees can leave.
Even drones can fly away.
The Queen is their slave."
by jpchi on Nov 6, 2008 9:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the Bulls need to tear this team down and rebuild around Rose
some of the guys might be able to fit and stay, but many, many of these guys need to go. This would be the first step in that process. This doesn’t look like a playoff team as it is, so might as well begin the process of truly making this Derrick Rose’s team.
by fundamentallysound on Nov 6, 2008 11:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
start with a new GM
honestly, if this means turning over the whole roster again, I do not want the guy responsible for all the spare parts in charge of it.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 11:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Our only hope
is that Paxson comes from the Danny Ainge white-combo-guard-turned-GM school of management and that he has a doozy up his sleeve…
still hoping…
by kig on Nov 6, 2008 12:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately, the only former teammate of Paxson's out there to save his ass is MJ
And while Jason Richardson is a nice player, he’s certainly no KG.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Nov 6, 2008 12:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The KNICKS wouldn't do it
Why would they trade an expiring contract for 3 mediocre players worse than anyone on their roster? Their contracts run for many years as well. So obviously the Bulls would be thrilled to do it.
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by mindfeck on Nov 6, 2008 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be up for the same
if it’s for Marion. They’re not playing Thomas anyway. Maybe then deal Gooden for the AntonioDavis/PJBrown type who won’t think he’s freaking Amare Stoudamire
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just give me a professional,
NBA power forward who can finish inside and hit an open jump shot. Hell, give me a starting front court of Gooden and Noah.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Nov 6, 2008 10:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There are about 10-15 of those.
And those teams know better than to trade em.
by CJ Bulls on Nov 6, 2008 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
One reason (among a few) why I want Noah to start at the 4
is so that he can get some minutes due to more favorable matchups. I want Noah on guys like KG and Dirk rather than Tyrus. I don’t want Noah anywhere near bigs with bulk.
by messwiththebull on Nov 6, 2008 12:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why? Will his development somehow be stumped?
He’ll have to guard them sooner or later. And how many of these “bigs with bulk” are there?
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, we're already seeing it. No minutes = no development.
“He has been working hard; it just has been matchups,” coach Vinny Del Negro said. " Aaron Gray gives us a different dimension, and at times he has been effective. It’s nothing Joakim has done. We’ll try to find areas where he can fit in."
by messwiththebull on Nov 6, 2008 4:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They're still looking for areas where he can fit in
because the obvious spot is at the 4 and he isn’t allowed to play there because of the superstar in waiting he have manning that position.
by messwiththebull on Nov 6, 2008 4:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's my point!
If he plays against the bigs his development will NOT be stumped, it will be increased.
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 5:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But of course...
…if the Heat and the Bulls meet in the playoffs, the backcourt of Wade, Hinrich and Sefolosha just might outplay DRose, Gordon and Hughes.
Wade and DRose cancel each other out, Sefolosha will bother Gordon into his bricklaying, flailing-in-the-paint mode and Hinrich will definitely outplay Hughes.
We can only hope that the Deng, Marion, Thomas and Noah can outplay Nocioni, Beasely and Haslem (plus whoever is masquerading as the Heat frontcourt)
by PatBull on Nov 6, 2008 3:31 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
That’s pretty hilarious that you put Rose on the same level as Wade.
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by mindfeck on Nov 6, 2008 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As much as I scoff at your general opinion of Rose,
he’s definitely not there yet.
If we play the Heat in the playoffs and beat them it will be because of depth. Our bench is better than our starters!
[…]
by Prevenge on Nov 6, 2008 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My opinion of Rose has increased to a ceiling around Tony Parker’s. Considering how Parker’s started the season, that could be great.
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by mindfeck on Nov 6, 2008 3:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a Bulls fan...
,,,hence the infatuation with DRose.
by PatBull on Nov 6, 2008 8:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My 2 cents on the Bulls now
I agree with Matt. I just dont get it. How do you not start the best players to at least get some early success and we still have a good bench. Start Rose with Gordon, end of story. I dont get it, anybody who watches the Bulls at all would get that. How does Vinny not get it. Start those two, then bring Kirk off the bench for either one. Deng Starts, Noc backs him up. Tyrus at the 4 with Noah or Noc even a little bit backing him up. Gooden and Noah and Gray at center. We can also give Noah minutes at the 4. Thabo should get spot duty and be happy with it until he learns how to shoot the ball.
by NamingRightsOnSale on Nov 6, 2008 3:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
i agree
however, I like Noah starting instead of Gooden
PG:Rose/Hinrich
SG:BG/Hinrich/Thabo
SF:Deng/Noc/Thabo
PF:Thomas/Gooden/Noc
C: Noah/Gooden/Gray
I dont understand why it’s so hard to start out best players and still have a bench of Gooden, Hinrich, Noc. It seems like our coaching staff is so concerned with our bench scoring. This bench will still contribute. This lineup gives Rose a chance to gel with what should be our future. I thought this was a year of bulding around Rose, but we are giving heavy minutes to Gooden while seeing Noah rot on the bench. Noah should be the starting Center, end of story. Gooden can relieve Tyrus or Noah if they are in foul trouble or having a bad game. It seems once Tyrus has a good start he has a good game. He builds up confidence and continues a good game. When he is off to a bad start he hasn’t been able to turn the corner. This should be our lineup and it’s not hard to commit to the future….
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith
by tyrus4prez on Nov 6, 2008 3:43 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
bench scoring
it really comes down to having that one or two good scorers off the bench. most teams will pay a guy to be their sixth man, like bobby jackson, etc, but it’ll be that one guy. the rest of the bench will shore itself up as the season goes. with Gordon starting we would still have TWO guys of that ilk coming off the bench in Hinrich and Noc. heck, even Gooden, if you’re starting him on the bench. BG should be starting. the points will be there from the bench. we don’t need 80 points from the bench.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 6, 2008 4:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hinrich, Noc, and Gooden
is a great bench. An expensive bench, but still a great one.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 6, 2008 5:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
expensive because...
our best players, or the ones with most upside, are on their first contracts, like Noah, Tyrus, even BG with the QO, and obviously Rose. so Gooden comes off the books soon, and either Hinrich or Noc should be traded. preferably Hinrich, at this point, which pains me cause i have my Hinrich jersey, but i like Noc. plays hard.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 6, 2008 5:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can tell you why we won't see this lineup
Here are the reasons why the Blogabull community will never see the lineup they so greatly desire:
1) Ben Gordon isn’t tall and can’t play D like Thabo Sefolosha, who is tall.
2) Drew Gooden is a team captain, which means he clearly knows what he’s doing whenever he’s hoisting up a wild shot.
3) Larry Hughes is everything Bulls fans have wanted in a shooting guard post-Jordan: he’s got size, can play D, and can score. No really. His numbers from 2004 prove this.
4) Kirk Hinrich is still on the team, he’s a team captain, and you will be hard-pressed to find a more professional or well-liked guy in the organization. Just ask Skiles, Pax and Reinsdorf.
5) Aaron Gray has a solid post game; he’s everything Sixer fans wish Shawn Bradley could’ve been.
I could go on, but then I’d either start drinking or give up basketball for a year.
by ToroToroToro on Nov 6, 2008 10:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm surprised
the Bulls didnt sign Adrian Griffin as either a player/coach. The fact that BG still isn’t starting is ridiculous. If he doesn’t even get a chance he is a quality starting SG in this league, I think he would take less money to go someplace else. I kinda feel like Noah is getting the sophomore treatment Tyrus got last year. How Drew Gooden is our starting Center shows the lack trust a team has in their previous lottery pick. A player who actually had a good year in what is considered a very bad year. Noah was the best thing about last year expect for the lottery ;) Why can’t the VDN just say our best 5 vs. yours? Anythign that happens after tip we’ll adjust accordingly. It seems like they are thinking way too much into 48 min. of basketball. The Bulls have Hughes coming back soon, I wonder what Pax won’t do….
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith
by tyrus4prez on Nov 6, 2008 10:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I know exactly what you mean
I can’t say that the Cavs on the road is a game you expect to win, it’s more the complete pansy fluffy jumpshot happy style of play that makes you want to cry.
I don’t know that vinny is 100% clueless. I noticed a few times where he was just absolutely fuming on the sideline (i.e when gooden did his left wing baseline iso fadeaway out of bounds spinning jump shot with varejao in his face, during the middle of the most important possession of the game with gordon on fire and the bulls only down 7 in the 4th).
Its on Paxson. He duplicates skill sets over and over and over. He has given Vinny a team with no post presence, ten thousand guards, and only one guy that penetrates.
For gods sake you massive Bozo make a F***** trade.
by Bushka on Nov 6, 2008 4:25 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Thomas and Noah have to play
They’ve been lousy the past few games, but we have to find out this year if they’re any good, and if they can play with Rose. What the hell, it’s not like Drew Gooden is going to lead this team anywhere. Why would you hire a coach who’s never coached anywhere if the goal is to win this year?
It’s amazing that this team has had lottery picks nearly every year for the past decade (I think 2005 is the only year they didn’t), and is still mediocre at best.
by Big D on Nov 6, 2008 4:29 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
You can almost see the coaches buying into Noc and losing faith in Thomas as the games go on.
by Sports2 on Nov 6, 2008 6:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe it's Thomas' fault and we should stop blaming
every coach that seems to come to the same conclusion to sit Thomas.
by messwiththebull on Nov 6, 2008 8:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i think he needs guidance
vinny had said he had no problem with tyrus’ shot selection against boston, but in that game tyrus needed to be told to put the ball on the floor. he shouldn’t be going 2-17 on jump shots, because he shouldn’t be taking that many jumpers in the game in the first place. even if it means making more of an attempt to get him involved, it needs to be done.
by Jaina on Nov 6, 2008 8:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Or maybe the coaches suck...
…and there’s a reason one is in his third coaching gig, never last more than four years and the other is a brand new head coach.
If there no other problems w/ who these two coaches chose to play, you might have a point. But since all three (including B*%!@^) have had some of the most ridiculous rotations, I’m not buying it yet.
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 8:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the coaches: are all chiefs and motivators
where are the guidance counselors and teachers who like jaina noted to tell TT 2-17 jump shots aint his game and are not acceptable, teachers to tell him stop thinking and just take the ball straight to the hole and jump as high as you can with violent force and dunk the ball, breaking and hands that get in the way .. Amare jr…
by exult463 on Nov 6, 2008 9:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
Some people need to realize that coaching includes actively teaching someone, not just benching them every time you’re unhappy w/ his performance.
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 9:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope you're right
but when I say coaches, I include the assistants as well. There may be a chance Del and Bernie would do the opposite early on but I doubt it.
I am placing a towel down on the ground and am close to sitting firmly in the Tyrus Is A Bust camp but it’s too early to give up all hope on him.
by messwiththebull on Nov 6, 2008 9:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My biggest problem with it is
even if his offensive production doesn’t get to Gooden and Noc’s last night, he should’ve been given a chance to rebound and block shots.
by CrashDavis on Nov 6, 2008 10:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
which he was doing last night
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 11:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I just want to see 30 minutes a night for two months to three months.
Even if he only becomes a 12 and 9 guy, I’m not considering that a bust—I’m happy w/ it.
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
more likely the player sucks
rather than the coach sucks. the coach is not gonna make a difference in whether the player sucks or not. if you’re good, you’re good.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 6, 2008 4:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well he is good
a coach could make him great
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 4:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Or at least better.
It’s rare you hear someone take the “coaches are completely irrelevant” stance.
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 5:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
coaches ARE irrelevant
is tim duncan great because of Pop?? was Jordan great because of Phil?? i think not. players will be what they are. i don’t think coaches make players more talented.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 6, 2008 5:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
they don't make players more talented
but they can put them in a better position to succeed. Look at a guy like Boris Diaw, who was lost before he came to Phoenix, and than had career years under D’Antoni.
by DangerMouse on Nov 6, 2008 5:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe one good year for Diaw
my point is that coaches get too much credit for players being good or not. players are what they are. how i define great is how long a player can perform at his best abilities. its why MJ is the best, because he was able to play at his best abilities more time than anyone else. no coach influences that.
and no coach has won without good players. there is no coach that had mediocre players and made them better and won a championship. championships are won by players. and no coach wins with bad players.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 6, 2008 5:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
whatever
if you compare everyone to a superstar or MJ than obviously the coach won’t matter. But coaches can help improve guys, coaches use guys differently, coaches put guys in different places to highlight their strengths.
No one is dumb enough to believe that Tyrus Thomas can be made into Dominique Wilkins by coaching. But he can be made to play to certain strengths or weaknesses by the offense the coach installs and the role the coach designs for the player. Your argument lacks merit
by DangerMouse on Nov 6, 2008 6:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not comparing everyone to MJ
although, like the great David Stern once said, he is the standard by which excellence is measured.
but seriously, he’s just an example. coaches maybe can highlight a player’s strengths, but the player’s strengths are what they are nonetheless. no coach will improve that.
if Tyrus can hit jumpers and cut to the rim and all that, if he were any good, he’d be doing it. but he only does it some of the time, so that makes him mediocre. i don’t know how to describe it, but, its basically the ratio of time playing at his best to total time played.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 6, 2008 6:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you know no one ever taught Tim Duncan a post move?
Or how to stay grounded while still defending a hook shot? Or how to box out for a rebound? Or where to find a cutter towards the basket? Or….
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 6:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
are you being sarcastic??
someone can teach them those things cause they are basic basketball skills, but their ability to execute it is based on the players talent, not on a coach.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 6, 2008 6:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not convinced
they HAVE to play him. a LOT. They already wasted the meaningless prior half-season due to Boylan. They can’t do this again. And they’re sitting him for Nocioni, for chrissakes.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 9:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
confused
you mean they have to play him, right?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Nov 6, 2008 10:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know, Noc really gives us another dimension.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 10:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it was two separate sentences.
I’m not convinced [Thomas is a bust]. They HAVE to play [Thomas] a LOT.
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 10:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Aaaaahhhhhhh
got it; thought he was saying NOT to play T2.
Goddamn Boylan screwed us good. We should know the answers to some of these questions. Instead we throw Rose into a team with no established 2, 4, or 5.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Nov 6, 2008 10:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Despite all the problems, this team has potential
Other than the Boston game, they’ve been competitive with everyone. Imagine how good they’d be with a coach who isn’t on training wheels? If this team is running sets, I can’t figure out what they are. The offense seems to be nothing but iso after iso. That works with Rose, since he’s quick enough to blow by almost everyone, but it doesn’t work so well with everyone else.
by Big D on Nov 6, 2008 4:58 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
All of this was very well said,
but I do think it underscores exactly how pathetic the roster is. I’m not a VDN fan. I haven’t been from the beginning. I think he was the last minute cheapo bailout and I think he’s totally inadequate except for a certain “aura” he projects, which is probably what got him the job. It falls on Pax.
We need viable interior players. We have too many guards.
What the fuck is so hard to understand, Pax?
There were two cry-in-your-whiskey moments last night. The first was Lebron James looking around during a free throw and seeing 3 guards. He had this look like – really? Honestly? Because it was just that stupid.
The second moment was when they were discussing Rose’s assist total. I’m not sure which former average-guard-turned-announcer was speaking, but: “Yeah, [Rose] really has to work on that. Although when you look at who he’s playing with….”
::uncomfortable silence, followed by a giggle::
Best moment of the night, however: BG blocking a shot. BG’s defense has actually been good this year. Not average – good. He’s moving his feet, staying with his man.
What’s so difficult about playing your three best players in their three best positions? Rose, BG, Deng: 1, 2, 3. Unfortunately, with the Bulls, it’s never that simple.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Nov 6, 2008 7:59 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
i've been waiting all season
to see a line up of Rose, Gordon, Deng, Thomas, Noah. These are the best players at each individual position. Until we put our best team on the floor, we will continue to struggle with the top teams in the East.
by DangerMouse on Nov 6, 2008 8:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
1 minute 30 seconds.
That’s all it’s played.
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 9:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gooden is better than Tyrus Thomas. This is a fact based on any offensive stat, and Thomas isn’t known for defense either.
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by mindfeck on Nov 6, 2008 9:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that's like saying your'e not known for pimping your blog.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 9:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The moderators of the site suggested I put it in my signature. Simple as that.
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by mindfeck on Nov 6, 2008 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I know, I think that was me :)
just funnin with you.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
True
Rose Gordon Deng Gooden Noah should be happening already.
by CJ Bulls on Nov 6, 2008 12:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I'm no commie, but the Reds shall be the best again!
by RedHopeful on Nov 6, 2008 3:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Jon Barry was calling the game last night.
Though, all he really did was constantly repeat the same 2 points over and over and over again. “You can’t win relying on jumpshots” and “The Cavs have no more excuses because they’ve put a lot of talent around LeBron”. For pete’s sake, they’re starting The Corpse and allowing him to play massive minutes. Barry’s terrible. Between the crap lineups on the floor, Gooden’s drives into the middle of 3 defenders under the basket with nowhere to go but throwing up a bad shot, and Barry’s blatant stupidity, I don’t know how I kept my self from throwing the remote through the TV.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Nov 6, 2008 8:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That was the first game I've ever watching
that actually gave me a migraine.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Nov 6, 2008 8:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i know
he kept saying how in love with the cavs he is.
yuck.
i hate playing the cavs anyway, because you never hear anything other than how great lebron is. i swear, they’d rather show lebron stretching his ankle than actually show the game.
by Jaina on Nov 6, 2008 8:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you still gotta love lebron
he’s dominating right now, and he goes down the row giving fans high fives during a timeout. i like that. lebron’s a beast, period.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 6, 2008 4:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This team forces up to many shots
They have to move the ball. For example, last night the Bulls are on a mini 4-0 run in which they played good basketball. The Cavs missed a shot and Deng grabs the rebound. He gives it to Rose, who then passes to Gooden who pops a shot from the elbow. That’s what I’m talking about. That possession was about 2 seconds long. They need to move the ball and drive a lot more if they hope to get somewhere this season.
"Check the magic of a winning season and there are always reasons beyond the talent." Ned Colleti
by wrigleyrocker12 on Nov 6, 2008 8:14 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Flawed? Maybe. I'll still take this over anything else we have.
I’m posting this so I can at least see it in print because I know I won’t see it on the court.
1 – Rose
2 – BG
3 – Deng
4 – TT
5 – Noah
by ToroToroToro on Nov 6, 2008 8:26 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I agree on this starting unit
Have D Rose guard the 2 and BG guard the 1 on D
I have given up on Ty Thomas
by Knowledge32 on Nov 6, 2008 8:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No
just make BG guard the 2. He is playing good D. I’ve yet to see him taken advantage of this season. He can do it.
by DangerMouse on Nov 6, 2008 8:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
YES.
What about this lineup is so hard to understand? We play our best players, and our players with the most potential. At the same time. And to sub in, we have a decent backup center, a [potentially] staring PF who’s decent, a good PG, a … tall SG … random crap, too.
And if Gordon wants to be the SG, he’ll have to guard the SG, and since he’s been playing good defense … there you go.
by Prevenge on Nov 6, 2008 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We ned to see this starting lineup
We’re losing with Vinny’s random rotations. And I’m not just talking about losing games. We’re losing valuable development time.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 6, 2008 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Great post...
…Also, agree with poster above on starting unit…
by bullsfaninbigapple on Nov 6, 2008 8:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Anyone else think...
Ty Thomas should have guarded LeBron last night?
I have given up on Ty Thomas
by Knowledge32 on Nov 6, 2008 8:37 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I do
I think he’s one of the few that has the speed and size to at least try.
If he fouls, so what? He barely played anyway.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 9:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ok maybe a little difference...
yet, there is something wrong with TT.
If he corrections this problem then it would make a significant difference in his overall game defensively and offensively.
quiz:
a) He’s weak
b) Lack of talent
c) He’s afraid
I believe the correct answer is c . (or c is the most correct answer)
He doesn’t even know his ability or talent and he’s scare while playing. Otherwise he would take the ball inside and dunk over somebody.
by exult463 on Nov 6, 2008 9:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you're an idiot.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 9:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't make them lose the game last night
Frustration!
by exult463 on Nov 6, 2008 9:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you are frustrating, mos def.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 9:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ok, maybe not an idiot
but typical Chicago fan: every question has an answer of ‘heart’.
has there been any indication that Thomas is afraid? at all? Deng isn’t bad because he’s not intense, Noc isn’t good because he screams, Tyrus isn’t having trouble finishing because he’s afraid of contact.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 9:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well nothing gives confidence
like the quick yank.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 9:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oncoming Semi/Defensive PF
another Quiz:
“Tyrus Thomas with the ball and a Deer in headlights have in common”
a.) a Bust!
by exult463 on Nov 6, 2008 9:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's d)
As in low basketball IQ.
by RogersPark Kris on Nov 6, 2008 10:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Solution email following link th TT
Tell him to study this every night and in 7 days he’ll be a better player
by exult463 on Nov 6, 2008 10:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
also, can we stop calling it "offensive struggles"
…and just admit that players like Hinrich, Noce etc are low % jump shooters? Waiting for them to “find their touch” is an exercise in foolishness.
by bullsfaninbigapple on Nov 6, 2008 8:38 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Great point.
Even when we get a good shooting night from our gaggle of perimeter guys, we know there will be no consistency. Just look at these guys FG% and you almost come to fear a good shooting night because you know there now has to be three poor shooting nights to follow in order normalize the spike in field goal percentage.
by messwiththebull on Nov 6, 2008 12:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He looks to have regressed
from what we saw during his stint as a starter last year. His game does not look like it has improved and his confidence certainly has not. I can’t justify this guy starting over Hughes any longer assuming VDN is committed to starting a big guard.
by messwiththebull on Nov 6, 2008 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well,
when Hughes comes back he will replace Thabo as a starter.
the front court just isnt there. TT just doesn’t have a head or the game. The offense stumbles with any 2 amoung Gooden, Noah, TT, and Gray in the game.
by chicago-homesick-blues on Nov 6, 2008 8:48 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Bulls:
whoever grabs the rebound, is the destinated to bring the ball up the court.
Therefore, when Thabo and Deng being the ball up court they move too slow, no speed at all. No one breaks (for a fast break) on a long shot attempt by cleveland for a outlet quick two, actually no one all game. Thabo just sleeps waiting to bring the ball up court. Gordon doesn’t pass, Hinrich also doesn’t pass and like Gordon pulls up for a shot with little ball movement, but unlike Gordon misses most of the time. Rose passes to these scrubs and they miss, so he just takes shots or tries to force something.
No one trust one another nor does it seem they really like each other other than cordial teammates.
Del Harris is frustrated and complaining and his quacking evenually will make VDN head bust and Bennie is sitting on the dock of the bay while Paxson whist his time away until Reinsdorf X’s him.
by exult463 on Nov 6, 2008 8:57 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
The part that really confuses me
If they are so willing to go small, why are they so averse to starting that way?
by JeffD on Nov 6, 2008 9:46 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Confusion?
I’m not so confused as to think it has anything to do with size or on-court production.
by Sports2 on Nov 6, 2008 9:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Can we just stop with the TT already
The guy deserves 30mpg to grow, but you’d think there’s some conspiracy to keep him on the bench by reading the comments here. He’s shooting 25%!! His per minute scoring and rebounding numbers are both down over the last 2 years. He’s already had a 41 minute game. The most of any player on the team! He doesn’t have it. They should continue to give him minutes in the hopes of developing him but it doesn’t look great.
While he has the potential to be a serviceable player, maybe even “good,” he’s not going to be great. Great players don’t play marginally for three years and then all the sudden explode. Especially ones that were 2 years removed from high school when drafted. Drew Gooden is a better player right now and should be starting. He’s lost offensively. He’s a marginal shooter, marginal slasher (at best), outstanding leaper, and terrible finisher. That usually doesn’t translate to great player.
by CJ Bulls on Nov 6, 2008 12:39 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
The Tyrus brain farts don't help him
He was out of position a dozen times last night on defense. He even made a great block, grabbed the board, and then made a silly pass to get to Rose that was an easy steal for Ben Wallace. It was more evidence of how immature his mind is for the pro game. He doesn’t demonstrate a lack of patience and awareness for the long game and instead tries to look really awesome for very short amounts of time.
We didn’t really run anything for him offensively yesterday.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 6, 2008 12:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I know, but after the last few games that may be on hold...
Everyone wants to blame the coaches. VDN and Boylan are problems, but Skiles knew what he was doing. He got this team to 49 wins somehow with less talent than they have now. He also knew to keep Thabo/TT benched. He would tell you why they were benched too. Tyrus seems to have improved but he still has a long ways to go. He’s a raw player. Raw players need to make exponential gains to achieve high status. Tyrus seems to be doing more of the one step forward, 2 steps back approach. It’s doubtful that will suddenly flip around.
by CJ Bulls on Nov 6, 2008 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Skiles had no clue with Thomas.
In the first six games last year when Thomas was starting he had two great games, two bad games and two ‘meh’ games. He busted out for 19 and 14 and 8-12 shooting in the team’s first win of the season against Detroit.
Two games later he was benched. Skiles got scared, wanted to “win now” and benched the erratic but sometimes great 21-year-old would be college junior for a older, more “consistent” jump shooting veteran.
The team promptly lost 5 of its next 6 games.
And then Skiles got fired.
But he obviously knew what he was doing.
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 1:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No he wouldn't play TT
because of the mental errors and lack of hustle. He didn’t want those types of players.
by CJ Bulls on Nov 6, 2008 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Skiles quit
The Chairman says he resigned.
Keith Glass says “I don’t know what else to call it.”
Skiles says it is what it is.
I hate our front office.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 6, 2008 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He was two months older than Rose is right now.
And much more of an admitted project. And people were talking about 2 or 3 years down the road for Rose….
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 12:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He's 2 years into college, 3 years into the league
light years behind Rose.
by CJ Bulls on Nov 6, 2008 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But that is the point!
Stars don’t just appear out of nowhere. Great players don’t appear out of nowhere. They come out of the gate fast. Find someone that suddenly became better after 2 years of nothing. You might as well find guys after 3 years of nothing as well, because TT isn’t going to average 16/10 this year.
The closest examples are Jermaine O’Neal and McGrady. O’Neal was dominating in practice but played for an incredibly deep title contender in Portland. McGrady showed signs and improved every year for his four and was a serious contributor to a playoff team in his 3rd year. Everyone else stood out immediately for their potential.
by CJ Bulls on Nov 6, 2008 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, so he's not going to be Jermaine O'Neal or Tracy McGrady.
I concede that point. So he’s garbage?
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 1:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To quote my earlier post
“While he has the potential to be a serviceable player, maybe even "good," he’s not going to be great.”
He shouldn’t be starting, but should be getting development minutes. We should also consider trading him to another team that places a high value on him.
by CJ Bulls on Nov 6, 2008 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Which team is that?
What could they possibly get for him?
I did read “good”, but i guess I find some ground in between “superstar” and “good”.
And look at these guys. You’re telling me there is some demonstrable difference between them?
Why are there only development minutes on a team that isn’t going to be winning anything for at least 3 to 4 years? A rebuilding year, this year, is EXACTLY the type of season where “starting” and “development minutes” are synonymous!!!
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 1:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know what they could get
packaging him with Hinrich is a good start. Good is a rotation player/starter. He’ll never make an all-star team.
Jermaine O’Neal was a 7ftr who came out of High School. He also played on a great Blazers team. He’s also the EXCEPTION to the rule. Just like 6’4 power forwards are a bad idea, but Charles Barkley succeeded.
If you read my post, I still want him to play 30 minutes a night.
by CJ Bulls on Nov 6, 2008 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
except you said not that much later on
forgive me for being a little confused
I guess I get what you’re saying. It’s just that tone of your post indicates to me you really don’t believe that 30 mpg. Then, you say explicitly that in response to yfBB.
I don’t mind people changing their minds. It’s part of learning, obviously. Just that, there are people playing better than him right now, and if you’re basically giving up on his potential, I don’t see the logic in continuing to play him. I recognize he sucks right now. I think he can still succeed and become a pretty darn good on a championship team. Someone similar to Kirilenko, if not quite as good.
So my fault for not getting it exactly.
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry it can be confusing because I was so forceful in the opinion.
It’s just tough reading everything people say about starting TT and giving him minutes when he isn’t contributing. I think he will become a significantly better player than he is now. Just never be better than say a Drew Gooden or Hinrich (competent starter). He just doesn’t have the ability to grow to that level I hear everyone talk about.
As a result, let’s give him minutes, but not prioritize his development over what is best for the team. And if we can, use his perceived potential to swing a trade.
by CJ Bulls on Nov 6, 2008 3:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus has been playing basketball
longer than Andrew Bynum. Bynum was known as a player that didn’t adapt that well to the game and was projected to be far too slow mentally for the NBA game. He got better.
Thomas isn’t getting better. It might be Thomas or it might be our back office operations. It’s obvious the Lakers are a complete basketball operation that discards dead weight when it is necessary. Our organization reassigns it.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 6, 2008 1:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thomas has progressively playing worse over the last 3 games
Still, he showed definitive flashes of improvement throughout preseason and against Milwaukee. Even against Boston, he didn’t look terrible until he obviously became frustrated with his shot not falling. He’s going to need some time and encouragement to get back into the flow of the game to get himself out of this funk. If VDN’s the communicator and developer we’ve been told he’d be, I think we’ll be back to seeing an improved Tyrus before the Circus Trip.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Nov 6, 2008 1:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"The guy deserves 30mpg to grow"
Right. And his minutes have been: 41, 29, 26, 17 and 14
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 1:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That averages out to 25 minutes per game
and his minutes have declined because he isn’t playing well. I have no problem with that. Get mad if he’s benched when he’s playing well. VDN isn’t going to play him 14 minutes the rest of the season.
BTW 30 might be overstating it a bit. There are a ton of people on this team who deserve minutes. So maybe 25 makes more sense. Half the game.
by CJ Bulls on Nov 6, 2008 1:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it doesn't work that way
you play him whether it’s good or bad. It’ll even out….or not.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 2:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To a certain extent you're right
but if he’s not following the plans you pull him. When he does, you play him. If he’s not hustling, or remembering the plays, or is standing out of positon, leaving him out there only reinforces the bad habit.
Entitlement minutes are not what this coaching staff should find themselves in a habit of doing.
by CJ Bulls on Nov 6, 2008 2:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree, it absolutely should be
they’re running out of time on these guys.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 2:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
25 mpg for a season
is more than enough time. Over forcing him to play 35. We also need time to evaluate Gooden, Noah, and Gray. Yes, even Gray.
by CJ Bulls on Nov 6, 2008 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gooden?
(and no, not Gray either)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 3:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
should we bring him back is a legit question. Right now I would. But let’s give him more time to evaluate his strengths/weaknesses. If we just saw them this year, and knew nothing else, Gooden would be the second best player on this team. I don’t think that’ll hold up over the course of the season but let’s find out.
I think Gray will make a good backup center. I know you don’t feel the same way. So I won’t start that.
by CJ Bulls on Nov 6, 2008 4:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that all may be true, but more minutes won't help the decision
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2008 4:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fine. Pull him ASIDE. Tell him. Teach him.
Or pull him out. Then put him right back in. I think it’s become obvious that PUNISHING him isn’t making him better. Why not try a different approach?
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 2:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
But if that doesn’t work….
by CJ Bulls on Nov 6, 2008 3:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This isn't recreational basketball where everyone is a winner,
and everyone should get fair minutes. Thabo should be getting 8 minutes a game, at the very most. Hinrich should be 3rd in minutes behind Rose and Gordon. Deng covers the 3, Thomas the 4 with Nocioni backing up the both of them for around 12 minutes. I guess Gooden and Noah should have (somewhat) equal minutes.
by NittanyCub on Nov 6, 2008 2:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If everyone got fair minutes
TT would be playing 8 minutes per game.
by CJ Bulls on Nov 6, 2008 2:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We were awful last night
Once again we were just terrible at finishing at the rim. If those shots fall, our 39% FG shooting is closer to 45% shooting. If those shots fall, the rebounding disparity goes away and our 38 rebounds aren’t as bad.
As I don’t expect our perimeter shooting to improve we either have to rebound a lot better than we are right now or start finishing in and around the rim. It’s just way to easy to block our shots around the rim because only a couple players actually attack with strength.
But the worst moments in the whole game were the players actually guarding Ben Wallace outside of 15 feet from the rim. Nocioni and Thomas were both guarding wallace way away from the rim. This is inexcusable. Of all the players that should know the weaknesses of Wallace it has to be his former teammates. Unbelievable.
My “Del harris head in his hands” count was 7 last night.
Will anyone ever stand in the paint and take a charge on Lebron. For a good defender, Thabo doesn’t take charges. He’s in position to take them, but he wants to use his hands and not his body to play defense.
It’s going to be a really long season. Friday’s home game with the Suns better be competitive.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 6, 2008 12:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus
Tyrus didn’t have the chance to have a shitty game from what I can tell. I realize he’s shot the ball poorly, but I’m not quite ready to give up on him yet. He’s made a positive difference with his rebounding and altering shots. I think I’d have kept him out there a bit more and tried to let him get through his shooting issues.
Beyond everything, Tyrus seems to be a confidence player. When he’s active and into it, he can contribute even if he’s not scoring. If we bench him, we might as well give up on him for good though, because he’s going to tune everything out.
So the way I look at it, Tyrus needs to stay out there for the next several games, and we need to give it as much of the old college try as we can. If he can’t make it work and at least sort of get settled, he’s pretty much out of excuses and we need to accept that he’s probably not gonna.
by Sports2 on Nov 6, 2008 1:18 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Said much better than what I tried to post above
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Nov 6, 2008 1:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We have to have Gordon and Deng out there with Thomas
to start games. We want to see as much out of Thomas as we can so having very solid offensive threats in Deng and Gordon should allow Tyrus to go do what Tyrus can do.
The coaches have to see this. Anyone want to go to the UC with a bunch of signs that say this.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 6, 2008 1:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
His rebounding is down again this year
to 9.4 reb/40. And his blocks are great, but his block to goaltend ratio is still pretty bad, though improving.
by CJ Bulls on Nov 6, 2008 1:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fun moment of the night
Delonte West, just after the start of the 2nd quarter, receiving the ball on an in bounds pass decides to hop, not once, but twice, before dribbling the basketball right in front of the trailing official. He dribbles up court and nobody notices.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 6, 2008 1:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
In the spirit of pointing out good things
Here were more of the good things we did last night.
12 turnovers. Arguably, at least three of those were just awful. Tyrus’ pass stolen by Wallace. The back to back turnovers on poor passing when Lebron injured his ankle in the first half and we had 5 on 4 breaks.
85% from the FT line on 27 attempts.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 6, 2008 1:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
How can the Bulls possibly remedy this situation?
Hinrich, Thomas, Noah, or Gooden aren’t playing well enough to get a decent trade, at least in my opinion. And even if a trade did happen, the incoming players might a) suck as well and/or b) have larger contracts, which could directly keep the Bulls out of the Wade/Bosh sweepstakes in 2010.
I don’t think it’s Paxson’s fault either. If anything, he’s been very conscientious about his player acquisitions, with the exception of Ben Wallace. The Bulls directly got a 2nd and 9th pick from him (Thomas, Noah). How could it have been possible to know that Thomas wouldn’t develop as fast as everyone would have hoped?
The only thing to do, at least from a fan’s point of view, is hope that this team starts to play together better, because any type of trade right now wouldn’t be good.
by NittanyCub on Nov 6, 2008 1:56 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Gordon, Deng, Hinrich HINDERING the success of Derrick Rose
Gordon brings up the ball, Rose stands in the corner.
Rose demands the ball, Gordon ignores him and passes to Hinrich.
Hinrich dribbles in circles, passes the ball to Deng
Deng shoots a contested brick.
Hinrich ignores Rose, and doesn’t pass him the ball
Deng ignores Rose, and goes 1-on-1.
Everybody on this goddamn team is IGNORING their best player.
Their BEST PLAYER, and it’s not EVEN CLOSE IN TERMS OF TALENT.
Gordon, Hinrich, and Deng are three of the most mentally soft players I’ve ever seen. If they knew what “team” is about, the would fill their roles, and Rose take over. That’s what TEAM is about.
Rose should have the RIGHT to shoot as many times as he wants, he should have the right to play as long as he wants. Give him the ball, and get out of the way….or you’re off the team.
I so want Hinrich to be cut right now…..not traded…just cut….he’s not even worth being traded.
I hate this bastard with all my heart.
by Half-Life on Nov 6, 2008 2:51 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
....
You guys know what the ironic thing is?
We are trying to win a couple of more games with the “vets” right? That’s why they’re not giving the ball to Rose.
But the funny thing is that…..if Rose had the ball in his hands in those games….we would have won them!
Rose can’t be aggressive if he doesn’t have the ball. He’s still a rookie he can’t get in people’s faces like LeBron can……
God I don’t know what the solutions are now.
by Half-Life on Nov 6, 2008 3:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
It's simple
Get a coach who recognizes each player’s strengths and utilizes them properly.
I'm no commie, but the Reds shall be the best again!
by RedHopeful on Nov 6, 2008 3:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's just shoot for a coach that plays the best players first.
Mios Dio! How far we’ve lowered our standards.
by tyger1147 on Nov 6, 2008 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i hate the 3 guard lineup
just start BG already. he’s obviously our most efficient scorer. he can still play 25-30 minutes AND start. we need to try to play from ahead, not behind.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 6, 2008 4:29 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
At the least
Ben’s defense is much better this year as compared to prior years. He’s moving his feet and shoulders and making excellent recoveries to distract shooters.
Gordon even blocked a shot last night.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 6, 2008 5:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
BG rocks.
even with his shortcomings (no pun intended), he’s such a throwback. i enjoy watching him playing, even how he dribbles, chest all out and shit. one of the announcers last night compared him to Vinny Johnson i think. i like that comparison. old school. BG looks like he shoulda been used in Glory Road or something.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 6, 2008 5:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hughes just said
on Sports NIte that he should be back by the end of next week. :-(
by sue369 on Nov 6, 2008 6:45 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Did anyone else notice there is reference to this thread
on ESPNs nba site?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/index
when the true hoop tab pops up, there is a pic of Rose with head slumped, and a comment about bulls fans frustrations, when you follow the links it leads to this thread
Hopefully Pax/VDN Will read and take some notes! lol
by rquinsee on Nov 6, 2008 7:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
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