Now here's a smart trade for our rebuilding plans (Gooden for McDyess)
by majoyenrac on Nov 5, 2008 12:16 PM CST
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PrintHere's my trade of the day (first trade for me in a few months I think too):
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=1711~530&teams=7~4&te=&cash=
Bulls: trade 27 year old Drew Gooden to the Nuggets for old, unhappy Antonio McDyess....
What the Nuggets get: a solid PF and spot minutes Center who can give them more future cap relief flexibility if they desire, otherwise who can be a good PF to pair with Nene for the future. Billups-Smith-Melo-Gooden-Nene is a very good starting 5....they part with the unhappy Dice and don't have to buy him out to watch him go back to Detroit or make the Celtics better on the Nuggets dime.
What the Bulls get:
Well we get a decent body, a tireless worker, and a good citizen to teach our guys. But let's cut to the chase, why this trade to me is good is that it prepares us for teh Wade/Bosh free agent year when Hughes and Dice come off the books, leaving us $20M in those two alone of free agent money. I think D. Wade would love to come our way and might be an option more so than Bosh even given the hometown thing, and mostly given Derrick Rose....
What do you think? Makes us worse this year definately, but forces us to play Tyrus and Noah more....and might in 2 years be viewed as a huge win for us if we land a major free agent (it's very very doubtful we'd get Lebron even with our market unless Derrick Rose moves up to a Chris Paul stratosphere after next season--possible but might be too early still....
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Gooden is on his last year of his contract.
If we’re going to trade someone to clear cap space, it might as well be someone with a multi year contract extending past 2010.
True
But with the Nuggets wanting savings, and McDyess coming off the books in that banner year, it’s a possible nice trade for us.
Afterwords we’d have:
Hinrich—$9M still in a trade talks, though he might stay with BG out the door
Nocioni- $6.875M also potential trade suitor, though he cuold stay
Deng-$11.3M not going anywhere
Rose-$5.5M
Noah $3.1M
leaving us with a contract hold of $35.8M….
to maybe resign Tyrus Thomas ($6-7M perhaps)?
D. Wade ($20M)
and some veteran minimum guys, MLE guys (Gray perhaps/perchance?) and a first round draft pick.
Might just work.
Lineup at that point:
All star/superstar Derrick Rose
All star/Superster Dwyane Wade
Solid SF: Luol Deng
Hopefully ready by then Tyrus Thomas
Hopefully Noah too will be ready and will clean up with Rose/Wade/Deng as the big 3. Noc off the bench would be awesome with Wade’s intensity and Noc’s propensity to hit the open 3…. and Captain Kirk would still have a spot as a super utility 6th man coming in for both Wade and Rose….
But this trade saves us zero dollars.
In fact it costs us money. If we keep Gooden this year and choose not to resign him, his salary comes off our books. We owe him nothing ever again. If we trade for Dice, then we owe McDyess pretty much the same amount as Gooden, except for 2 YEARS. In 2010 our cap situation is practically the same either way. So unless you’d rather have McDyess on the team than Gooden, this gets us nothing.
But
It’s very unlikely we aren’t spending that money/locking up money next year either way. This forces that issue, gives us 2 years to watch Rose blossom and see what Noah/Tyrus have…..and prepare us for the big gun offseason of the century.
Otherwise, if we had that money off the books and did nothing, there are few folks that won’t complain about it.
by majoyenrac on Nov 5, 2008 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
So you suggest purposely taking away flexibility to
make a trade that, in your own words, “makes us worse this year.” And why? So that we force ourselves to have no ability to resign players that could potentially be of use to us in the long run (Gooden and Gordon) and make a run at a big name free agent in 2010.
Frankly, I don’t understand this at all. We have two valuable assets in Hinrich and Nocioni that, given their position and age, are clearly not in the long term plan for this team. They also happen to have bigger and longer contracts than Gooden that, if shed, could legitimately put us in a position to go after a top free agent. They are 100% tradeable, and provide us with real cap space. Gooden is already coming off the books. Why would we trade him when we would be better served to evaluate him during the course of this season and make an informed decision as to whether or not we would like to retain him?
I am doing this
So we have big room to make a run at 2009 big free agents. We’ll need more than Larry Hughes’s money, and if we resign Gooden and worry about Tyrus, etc. we’ll need even more and won’t get much more than a MLE guy in any of the years—next year or the following year because of these concerns…and we might just then blow Rose’s talent with mediocre, good but not great guys surrounding him, and be Cleveland Mach II….
That’s the biggest concern we have.
Gooden, is not in our long term plans unless we rid ourselves of Kirk,a nd I don’t think that’s happening because Pax will likely have BG walk.
2009 free agents?
Now I’m even more confused now than I was before…
To go after 2009 free agents we need to CLEAR cap space off of next year’s roster. Dice ADDS salary next year, making it that much more impossible to sign a 2009 FA. And Larry Hughes comes off the books in 2010, so he has nothing to do with a 2009 FA signing unless we trade him for 2009 expiring contracts.
There is no way we will be in a position to go after 2009 FAs. If we want to go after 2010 FAs (which I’m not even saying is necessarily a good idea), the two contracts that we’d need to move are Hinrich and Noce. Or Deng I suppose, but at this rate he might be untradeable soon enough!
by Diz on Nov 5, 2008 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
Have to agree with Diz.
This makes absolutely no sense. If we want cap space in 2010, we can just let Gooden come off the books and not sign anyone else. Just because you have space doesn’t mean you have to use it (see Memphis this year).
You also forget that our salary situation is different next year than this year. Lots of people get raises (Deng, Rose, Hughes, Tyrus, Thabo, Noah). Having Gooden come off the books pays for some of that. (Noc and Kirk get a little less money, which pays for a little too, but not much.) All told, looking at current raises (or drop backs for Kirk and Noc), we’ll have to pay out around $3.1M more next year just to keep our guys. This also doesn’t figure in next year’s first rounder, so add about another $1-2M.
Gooden going away could also pay for a resigning of Ben Gordon if he chooses to stay slash we want him to stay, or for salaries obtained through a sign and trade of Ben using his Bird rights.
Having Dice doesn’t help with any of those.
Didn't see your reply to Diz when I posted this.
You’re right, you do account for the raises. That makes it even more perplexing to me why you’d want to add to our payroll for a “decent body.” We can draft a decent body in the second round for 7% of what it would cost to have McDyess, if that’s all we want. Sure, McDyess is more skilled than a rando big man comming out of college, but McDyess is not going to be in our future, and the 1-2 wins he might add over rando 2nd-round scrub are not worth the $7M salary (hell, 4-5 wins probably aren’t worth it, unless we somehow metamorphose into a 50-win team contending for a championship in the next few weeks).
It seems you want Dice only as a kind of “lock box” to make sure we don’t commit that cap space to contracts lasting more than 2 years. I have faith that if Paxdorf is eyeing the summer of 2010 expecting to make a big move, they can manage to achieve the same goal without McDyess, and maybe find a shooter or two on cheap, short-term contracts to keep around after getting rid of our other long-term, bad contracts (Noc and Kirk). (It should be said that all indications point to Paxdorf NOT eyeing 2010.)
McDyess doesn't want to come here, Gooden doesn't want to go there
it costs the Bulls money, and they get a downgrade at the pf/c position. This makes zero sense on all levels.
McDyess
will be bought out and is going back to Detriot so there is no chance of this happening. I’m getting sick and tired of trade ideas that involve role player(s) for role player(s). Either we need expiring contracts or a superstar.
Folks
Buy too much intot he press. I really don’t see why Denver would just up and do that. McDyess might help them, and his not too outrageous contract doesn’t hurt either.
I know folks think just because they gave Camby away they are giving anyone away, but why would they buy out Dice just to watch him go to another team and beat them?
Sure Dice might not be happy, but such is the way of the business. He’s a bit silly too to be unhappy as he might even get a starting nod again in Denver if he stays, with KMART backing him up, and Nene when healthy will surprise many, if he can only stay healthy. A Billups-Smith-Melo-Dice-Nene lineup isn’t awful, though even better for them would be a Billups-Smith-Melo-Gooden-Nene lineup….meanwhile they get an expiring contract that costs them less money….
Bulls get a great mentor (he’s really supposed to be a class act of the league) who can teach Tyrus while getting some 20 MPG in there behind Tyrus/Noah….and the Bulls just force us to develop the youngs. We can keep Dice or dump him next season after the season starts…though I don’t think we’d Thomas or Marbury him as he’s got decent PJ Brown esque skills still and still has a pulse, whcih helps.
This isn’t a short term trade, just for the long term.
Additionally,
we need Gooden’s money to become Gordon’s. Or so I hope.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Gordon
is not gone just yet. He could get offer more money by the bulls than any other teams. Teams are not going to pay him a ton of money so i think the bulls have a shot.
by Diehard BullsFan on Nov 5, 2008 4:26 PM CST reply actions
Unfortunately
I think Gordon is our 2nd best player, but it is becoming increasingly obvious that due to us being saddled with the contracts we are saddled with (Hinrich, Deng, Nocioni in the longer term, and of course the big void Larry Hughes) we need to start doing something to get over the hump and go after another star to pair with Rose.
Gordon’s a solid player (who I don’t think we could ever grab for 5/35M no matter how appealing that sounds, he’ll be nabbed for much more than that, likely in at least the Bulls offer range…..and we thankfully dodged the bullet there not having him, Kirk and Luol of the old clan.
We really need to focus on getting 1 post scorer….unfortunately our only post scorer on this roster is Aaron Gray, so the Bulls better hope to God he continues to lose/maintain his weight and go to work in the weight room and somehow suddenly get a step faster, because not having that post presence is killing us now and will continue to do so, unless we can get a guy like D. Wade who creates post shots by his cutting/slashing plays, and who is a good enough big play defender to play well in a quick uptempo style next to Derrick Rose.
Ben Gordon has been very good for this organization, and it’s a sham ethey way he’s been portrayed to some extent given his lack of complaining at the constant change of roles…..but right now, having been saddled with 2 non inside scoring young players (Noah and Tyrus) as our upside young bigs, and having the ridiculous amount of nice shooters, but not good drivers in Deng, Gordon, Hinrich and Nocioni, we can’t consistently handle the big upper crust teams. We can beat any of them on a given night once in a blue moon because of our shooters—when they get hot they are tough—but without any inside option, it’s an incredible burden on our guards/jump shooting SF’s to carry the load, and the NBA has caught onto this and is adjusting for it.
The Bulls are one of the most athletic teams in the league, but our major weakness is the inside game, it’s a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE weakness….and if we fork over even $35M that’ll never happen for BG to stay, that’s even more money spent on a position that we don’t need that won’t make us better.
Now if we ever got that PF/C that can score 16+ pts consistently with an inside game (not Gooden’s jump shooting game) our team would change dramatically because our guards/SF’s are so gifted and we have Tyrus/Noah as future defenders…..but as it stands now we’re middle of hte pack at best and will continue to be with this lineup.
SO I think we have to let BG walk, Deng’s not going anywhere, Noc ain’t too awful to have out there for his declining money…..Hughes ain’t moving.
Hopefully we could work out a trade of Hinrich and Gooden for a PF at the deadline….if not it’s going to be some combo involving Gordon and likely Tyrus Thomas as the bait….which might be nice if Tyrus doesn’t develop, but in 2-3 years as I see it will really be a blunder when 25-27 year old Tyrus Thomas puts it together and is a top 10 player in the league due entirely to his ridiculous athleticism…
The Bulls
need a veteran frontcourt player that’s content with riding the pine behind Tyrus and Joakim if need be (I’m not saying both should be starting together, but consarnit, we need to develop those two players sooner rather than later) .
I don’t think McDyess would be ok with that.
But is Othella Harrington available? Just kidding.
Stupid, 'nough said
Didn’t think this one neede this much discusion.
I don't see why
It forces us to play our young guys, which ultimately should be the goal this year….gives us a good teacher for Tyrus (McDyess was an athletic freak back in his heydey pre injury)….Dice also has some semblance of an inside game, and definately plays his ass off every night.
Plus another nice feature is that it locks up some salary for the big offseason for us to really improve in a jiffy (force our young future to play, rather than the 1 foot out the door Drew Gooden and gives us likely $20M easy with Hughes/Dice coming off the books to go after the big free agent class….having Derrick Rose on our team too really helps.
Sorry if the long term thinking is “stupid, nough said” but maybe you need to think a bit. What we’re likely to do without making a trade like this is play Gooden the full year, sign him to a similar contract and watch as Tyrus keeps getting 15 minutes, Noah gets 10 minutes a game and our team continues to flounder in the 35-42 win mark for the rest of Rose’s tenure….
Rose is the future, we need to start to rework this team out of Skiles ball and into Rose ball….unfortunately we still have Skiles’s pick and roll type players and no inside help and it’s not working now that we have a future all league distributor with nobody to pass to for easy shots.
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