Pax, are you watching this? Younger Gasol: 27 and 16

by bullhockey on Nov 4, 2008 1:43 PM CST

I have no doubt that being an NBA general manager is a very tough job. Pax at least cleaned up the mess that Jerry Krause left behind, getting us into the playoffs and into the second round.

But one of the recurring criticisms is that he has never been able to secure a low post scorer. In 2006 he drafted Tyrus Thomas and in 2007 he drafted Joakim Noah. They've shown us glimpses, but seldom have they put together a number of impressive games as starters, and they have certainly never put up the kinds of big numbers that Marc Gasol put up yesterday.

27 points and 16 rebounds! He also tallied 1 assist, 1 steal and 3 blocks. Forget about the first couple of games in their rookie seasons--can you imagine Tyrus or Joakim ever doing this in the league??

In Paxson's defense, Marc was drafted well into the 2nd round of the draft, #48 in 2007 (the Bulls picked Aaron Gray with #49, and Gray is a horribly, horribly slow oaf of an NBA big man). So Pax certainly was not alone in thinking that Marc was not a top-shelf talent. But the reality of the situation is that Pax is being paid to spot talent where other GM's don't. Krause's big claim to fame was the swindling of Pippen from the Sonics, who failed to see what kind of special player he could be. RC Buford has time and time again selected future stars from the draft that other GM's passed on. Dumars has built a perennial contender by taking the castoffs of other teams.

So Pax shouldn't be judged according to what other GM's also failed to see. He should be judged on his ability to assemble a competitive team, which includes filling certain needs.

Pax has now had over 5 and a half years to find one decent low post presence. And it looks like the best he can do is Aaron Gray. Oh and by the way, your team is in disarray, your big stud small forward is playing like he's never been on a basketball court before, and if not for the sheer dumb luck of #1 overall, this team would still be looking for its first win.

Paxson: WTF?

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oh god

Aaron Gray had a 20/20 game last year too.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2008 1:45 PM CST reply actions

Yes, the point is not that Gasol is great.

The point is that the Bulls’ bigs are horrible. And Pax should have had probably 5 things on his to-do list from the fans’ perspective (please chime in):
1 – change the team culture, check.
2 – make the playoffs, check.
3 – get a bona fide super star. Now with Rose, check. (Although failures include all of Pax’s previous draft picks/acquisitions.)
4 – get a low post player. Utter failure.
5 – get the team to be competitive. For a couple of years, check. But now? No way.

Like other fanposts, this is my way of venting.

"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris

by bullhockey on Nov 4, 2008 1:55 PM CST up reply actions

Then it's on his drafting on Thomas and Noah, as every team passed on Gasol

I think Gasol has a ways to go to be as good as either of them. Being a ‘low-post scorer’ is not that big of a deal if he’s deficient in other areas. What did the great Marc Gasol do on Saturday?

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2008 1:59 PM CST up reply actions

I figured it was nothing since I didn't remember

3 points in 24 minutes. I hope they were post points!

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2008 2:01 PM CST up reply actions

Look, there's actually some positive press about Marc.

Right here on the Grizzlies’ blog.

I can’t say the same about the Bulls’ bigs, on this blog or on any other. I mean, if it was all homerism, certainly you’d see some praise for Tyrus or Noah on here? Maybe it’s here and I’m just not remembering it, or maybe it’s just getting drowned out by people on here who point out how obviously poorly they’re playing right now.

It just seems to me that Marc was a value pick at #48, whereas Thomas, Noah and Gray were all overrated in being picked where they were picked.

This smacks of an utter inability by Pax to pick up a good big man.

by bullhockey on Nov 4, 2008 2:08 PM CST up reply actions

Never thought I'd see it

Guys, bullhockey has given me the go-ahead to post MORE love for Tyrus Thomas :)

Gasol is currently being given heavy minutes on a shitty team. Any value at #48 is good, but shouldn’t be expected. If both Tyrus and Noah aren’t any good then obviously that’s a huge problem regardless of Marc Gasol.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2008 2:20 PM CST up reply actions

LOL... you've got me there

(shrug)

by bullhockey on Nov 4, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions

You see, part of it is

that Gasol seems to be doing more with less than Thomas and Noah. Yes, he is being fed the ball on a bad team. But honestly, Thomas and Noah were tabbed for greatness.

They are disappointing players and I have to wonder what Pax is doing wrong selecting guys like that and failing to develop them.

No question, they looked like good picks at the time. I’m not even addressing that issue. I’m just saying I really wish Pax was able to find decent bigs, and an eye-popping stat line for a really low pick like that is just a very striking reminder of how bad our bigs are, and by extension, how dysfunctional our team is right now.

by bullhockey on Nov 4, 2008 2:29 PM CST up reply actions

Every year

they have draft night and hype up every and any player. Desitned for Greatness? If you believe the hyperbole on draft night then yes….

by J Theory on Nov 4, 2008 2:34 PM CST up reply actions

Noah hasn't played for whatever reason.

Gray hasn’t been that hot in his absence. And Thomas has been downright awful. Except, of course, for the five blocks against the Grizzlies. This is tough to figure out the difference in praise?

by tyger1147 on Nov 4, 2008 2:55 PM CST up reply actions

and his double-double against the bucks

i don’t know what’s going on with noah, but i was against having gray back him up, and now gray seems to be ahead of him in the rotation!

by Jaina on Nov 4, 2008 3:01 PM CST up reply actions

and this was against the Warriors.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2008 1:58 PM CST up reply actions

My thoughts exactly.

One game does not a season make.

Gasol against the Bulls Saturday:

24 min
3 pts (1-6fg)
8 reb

by CJ Bulls on Nov 4, 2008 2:09 PM CST up reply actions

True, it is just one game.

But if Gasol shows himself to be a serviceable big man with any consistency whatsoever, then yes, I will continue to be very disappointed in Pax and the team he has assembled.

by bullhockey on Nov 4, 2008 2:24 PM CST up reply actions

Gasol could be good

if he keeps the weight off. He lost 40 pounds a few seasons ago. The weight just made him very hard to play. He couldn’t keep up.

Hello Eddy Curry if you’re out there.

In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.

by NBA Observer on Nov 4, 2008 6:10 PM CST up reply actions

Have you met Aaron Gray?

Much of the same can be said for him.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 4, 2008 7:03 PM CST up reply actions

It's not that he hasn't had viable interior players,

it’s that he keeps trading them that drives me crazy!

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Nov 4, 2008 1:56 PM CST reply actions

And I remember

Carlos Rogers scored like 30 points in his first game with the Warriors…..

by J Theory on Nov 4, 2008 2:33 PM CST reply actions

To further indict Pax's inability to land a post scorer.

Spencer Hawes, selected #10 behind Noah, is currently averaging over 12pts,9rebs and 2blks…

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=3211

I know, its only four games and he plays for the Kings, but he is a post scoring seven footer from an NBA family. Why Pax passed on this guy for Noah is something of a mystery. My only guess is the knee. But, then again Noah had the shoulder.

"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson

by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 4, 2008 5:38 PM CST reply actions

And 31 minutes per game

Noah somehow has ended up behind Gray despite playing well in the time he’s been given.

In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.

by NBA Observer on Nov 4, 2008 6:08 PM CST up reply actions

One thing I've noticed is we're pretty inconsistent in how we draft

Noah, and our other draftees except Thomas, have been sold as “ready to contribute” guys. Hawes was looked at as a project, I think. I don’t know why we picked one year to go for a project, but that seems to be the outlier in our drafting strategy which focuses on big name college players from big name programs.

To go even further, aside from Thabo you could say the Bulls have drafted by simply scouting the Final Four. Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, Rose, Tyrus, Noah… see a pattern here?

by Sports2 on Nov 4, 2008 6:08 PM CST up reply actions

Noah was definitely the right player at the time.

And he showed it last year. But now that the team is rebuilding and Noah is actually older than Deng and Thomas, not to mention Rose, it probably wasn’t so hot. I think Rose, Deng, Thomas and Hawes would be soemthing to be excited about rightnow. Maybe.

by tyger1147 on Nov 4, 2008 6:13 PM CST up reply actions

In fairness I wasn't too excited about Hawes

And still ain’t. But I’m perplexed by how Noah, who looked like and was touted as being an uber-team player who knew all the tricks at Florida has suddenly become a pot-smoking ADD case who’s flailing around out there.

Were there really no warning signs on him? Or has he just completely wigged out?

by Sports2 on Nov 4, 2008 6:20 PM CST up reply actions

In fairness, I wasn't too excited about Noah

He grew on me last season, but I’ve never been sold. He’s basically a tall Noce without a jumpshot…without ANY kind of shot.

What were his greatest attributes coming out of Florida? He played with energy? He hustled? He came from a winning program?? Gimme a break…does anybody look for actual basketball skills anymore? I never understood or liked the pick…blah

by NormVanBeer on Nov 4, 2008 9:25 PM CST up reply actions

Noah had great basketball skills. A tall Nocioni? That's ridiculous.

Noah can dribble and pass; two huge advantages from a center. He’s a really good on-the-ball defender, too, unlike Nocioni. He also is great at offensive rebounding and good at defensive rebounding. He’s great at tip-ins and put-backs around the basket. He’s great at tipping just out of reach rebounds to teammates.

Just because someone isn’t good at shooting doesn’t mean they don’t have basketball skills. Noah pretty has every basketball skill except shooting. Which is basically the opposite of Nocioni, who can shoot and score, but not much else.

Just because they both play w/ intensity doesn’t mean they’re the same player. Which just goes to show how ridiculous the “fire/intensity” comments are.

Sorry, but that was a bad, bad comparison.

by tyger1147 on Nov 5, 2008 9:21 AM CST up reply actions

ok, bad comparison

I’m not saying he doesn’t have ANY skills…I’m just saying that his skills are lacking big time. Case in point, against the Celtics…Perkins got the ball down low, maybe about 7-8 ft from the basket, immediately Noah hunches down so that his eyes are level with Perkins’ waist. Perkins took two dribbles, backing Noah down, and scored on a lefty-hook with ease. That’s bad defense, flat out. You’re big, play big. If you’re 6’11, don’t make yourself 6’3.

Lots of times he is out of position on the defensive end…it just so happens because of his being out of position, he is able to tip the ball to his teammates. If he was IN position to begin with, he would be able to grab the rebound with two hands.

So that’s where my Noc comparisons come in…both have bad defensive tendencies and both are known as “intense” players.

by NormVanBeer on Nov 5, 2008 10:01 AM CST up reply actions

12 pts 9 reb

for a horrible, horrible team. The rookie Jason Thompson is outplaying him.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 4, 2008 7:04 PM CST up reply actions

Isn't he playing PF?

to Hawes at Center.

In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.

by NBA Observer on Nov 4, 2008 8:01 PM CST up reply actions

Yes he is

but there spending significant minutes on the court together.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 4, 2008 9:44 PM CST up reply actions

On a team that has yet to win a game.

"Rest satisified with doing well and leave others to talk of you as they please"

by Bigred15 on Nov 5, 2008 7:27 AM CST up reply actions

The only problem with Noah is VDN

Noah should be our starting center, and would be averaging a double double if he was. The fact that he is not starting makes me wonder what the hell is wrong with VDN, not Noah. My theory is that VDN is under orders to start Thomas at power forward, thus forcing Gooden to start at center.

It won’t be too long before everybody realizes that we can’t afford to start the brainless wonder, (Thomas) and Gooden will move over to his natural position and Noah will start at center. Let the good times and double doubles role.

by BigWay on Nov 4, 2008 7:29 PM CST reply actions

Noah needs to learn the plays first.

There’s nothing other than that stopping him from being a double double guy, as you said. But this is two years in a row now that he’s failed to learn the offense. Dude needs to be more mentally prepared.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Nov 4, 2008 7:57 PM CST up reply actions

Gooden has been pretty good though

Moving him over to PF may make him even better. Tyrus just isn’t giving away as much defensively at the PF position so it makes it hard to bench him.

The lack of offense in our starting lineup is an issue, but we can start Gordon for points and needle Deng until he starts making shots.

I do speculate that VDN is under orders to start Tyrus though. This wouldn’t be an issue if we just started Tyrus all last season after the Wallace trade.

In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.

by NBA Observer on Nov 5, 2008 7:12 AM CST up reply actions

Wow

agreed on all of the above…I kinda..well…don’t have anything to add to that. Jerk.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Nov 5, 2008 7:30 AM CST up reply actions

My speculation is that we really need to decide Tyrus vs. Gooden

We commonly assume Tyrus is the future and Gooden is a goner.

But the truth of the matter is we need to find out about Thomas because we need to find out if we need to keep Gooden around. If Tyrus can’t put it together we’re going to need to find a way to keep Gooden, who, in my opinion, has been pretty solid.

by Sports2 on Nov 5, 2008 8:17 AM CST up reply actions

agree

but I believe accepting this is the major hurdle because the on court performances scream for themselves together with the lack of court knowledge or advancements displayed by Tyrus.

Tyrus, the jump shooter, given more playing time will prove without a doubt the bench and lack of playing time helped maintained his favorable BaB status and also kept his market value higher.

The percieved candidate for “most improved player” LOL!

by exult463 on Nov 5, 2008 9:20 AM CST up reply actions

I think Del Negro is just setting the discipline tone.

You don’t practice, don’t come in shape? You don’t play and/or start Gordon and Noah.

Thomas, despite his faults, worked extremely hard this off-season and pre-season has been greatly rewarded w/ extended playing time.

by tyger1147 on Nov 5, 2008 9:23 AM CST up reply actions

I agree with bullhockey

If the Bulls could get Marc Gasol, they should. He can bring a lot to the team, including energy and leadership. I just can’t see what we could offer that would please Memphis without hurting us even more

by JustAnotherFan on Nov 4, 2008 7:56 PM CST reply actions

the freedom of the 1st pick.

other than the freedom of first choice, the 1st draft pick has its bad marks. paxson is going to get shit if any picks among 2 through 60 turn out to be All Stars (and Derrick Rose ends up a dud.)

by chicago-homesick-blues on Nov 5, 2008 8:44 AM CST reply actions

Gasol did do this against the Warriors

Who boast such amazing defensive stalwarts like Corey Maggette, Al Harrington, and Brandan Wright. If there was a center to be impressed by in that game, it would have been Biedrins, who’s having a ridiculous start to the season. Would anyone object to trading Noah and Gooden (would never happen obviously) for Biedrins?

"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"

by Ozzie Montana on Nov 5, 2008 1:31 PM CST reply actions