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Orlando Magic 96, Chicago Bulls 93: know your role

This was very 2007.

Thomas (16.5 minutes) and Noah (5) barely played. The 3-guard lineup was used a lot, they folded late. And the Magic beat the Bulls, as they did in every meeting between them last season.

To be fair to Vinny, Nocioni was hitting shots, and Aaron Gray is at least able to box Howard out a couple possessions. I can understand why VDN didn't want to use Noah and Thomas too much. But Noah wasn't even given first opportunity over Gray, and that's just wrong. And while Tyrus Thomas made some awful decisions with the ball in the 3rd quarter, he doesn't need to be banished to the bench for the rest of the game for doing so. It's so Skilesian.

The ineffectual starting lineup (and Kirk - as the 4 points in 34 minutes sixth man) put the Bulls in a hole to open both halves, the Bulls were able to come back with Nocioni, Gordon, and Rose. The lineups went from small (Noc at the 4) to smaller (Kirk at the 3), and while it was successful for a stretch (Noc was hitting shots and Turkoglu wasn't) I do not want to see more of that in the future.

(biggest fear: VDN finds the Skiles plan in his desk drawer and benches Thomas for Noc because Thomas had a bad game at the same time Noc had a good one)

But the fact that the Bulls were able to threaten the Magic (they never led) near the end of the game, it not only made it a competitive contest,  it also revealed a bigger problem: the misuse (bordering on non-use) of Derrick Rose to close out the game.

Rose is this team's closer now, and I'm already more comfortable with late deficits than I was in the past because of him. So to see him stand in the corner in late game possessions while Hinrich handles the ball and Gordon takes the shots makes me think the veterans don't realize how they'll help themselves and the team: let Derrick Rose run the show. Gordon especially: after having a solid game, he still thought he was the man, and rushed up a bad shot with the team down two and barely over a shot clock's time remaining.

But while that poor decision likely sealed the game, the entire contest was full of Bulls taking shots that seemed dictated by whose turn it was and not who was open and in position to shoot in rhythm. Hinrich still thinks he's the PG even when Rose is in the game. Drew Gooden hit a few early shots and as a result thought it justified whatever else he threw up. And speaking of throwing up, Luol Deng was completely missing, not making a single field goal and finishing with 1 point in 25 minutes. It's not just a shooting slump, he's taking jumpers early in the shot clock with defenders on him...as if he's trying to get his...like everyone else.

All these guys need to realize they'll play better, and the team will be better, if they let Rose do the work. Ben Gordon should be happy he doesn't have to be on an island in end-of-quarter situations. Deng, Thomas, and Gooden don't need to rush jumpshots if Rose can give them an open one later in the possession. Hinrich...well he just has to get used to a kid taking his job, and become a damned good bench combo guard.

I guess it's a bit much to ask to have the transition happen right away. But hopefully the team sees that the accelerated progress Rose has shown means they need to adapt at a quicker pace than they originally thought. I think some things will correct on their own, like Deng's shooting. And others could be helped by lineup construction, as in getting Gordon more time with Rose. But at the core it's still counting on the players to buy into it.

And if they don't, Vinny needs to tell them. If he is and they're not getting it, Paxson needs to trade them. Though if that was the case, he should've known these players he drafted better, and have traded them already.

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Excellent review.

I thought it summed up the game perfectly. These guys need to defer to Rose, even if it is a hit to their egos, or whatever. It really was frustrating watching Lu disappear, Kirk attempt to be the PG again, and BG try to take over every possession at the end of the game. Tyrus being benched I was actually okay with, because he’s been god awful the last 3 games for the most part. Hopefully he continues to start though, otherwise that would be annoying. It’s still early.

Best line:

Drew Gooden hit a few early shots and as a result thought it justified whatever else he threw up. And speaking of throwing up, Luol Deng was completely missing, not making a single field goal and finishing with 1 point in 25 minutes.

I had a good laugh there. Thanks for that.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Nov 3, 2008 11:30 PM CST   0 recs

I think he was justified

the guy was 9-16 with 21 points. He’s proven he can score and rebound (although not on the same nights I guess). The guy should be the starting PF. We should continue to play and develop Tyrus with an eye on moving him in a bigger package this offseason.

Gooden looks like an affordable starting PF. I would guess 6-7 million per year would sign him and keep him around. The guy is only 27.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 4, 2008 7:12 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

except Gooden's never been an efficient shooter

and as you mentioned, the nights where he does so (and rebounds) are sporadic…plus he’s a space cadet on defense. And I don’t mean in the ‘Tyrus is stooopid haha’ way. The kind that actually hurts the team.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2008 8:53 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Gooden pump faking at the 3 point line, 4th quarter

why is gooden at the three point line? and have the ball?

this is not what the bulls need from a PF. he may have done well last night, but the Bulls lost.
side points:
1) Hinrich?
2) Deng?
3) Rose has too few assists.
4) TT looked too timid. but he should be after the 2-17 outing.

by chicago-homesick-blues on Nov 4, 2008 9:19 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

So they lost because of Gooden?

I guess Rose really needs to step it up then since they lost.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 4, 2008 11:03 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

It's just weird to pick on the one guy

who’s actually produced on this team. 21 points and “attempting” to guard Howard.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 4, 2008 11:02 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I also don't see where

he’s inefficient. He’s considerably more efficient than Tyrus. His biggest knock is help D, but he should be playing PF and not C where the help typically comes from.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 4, 2008 11:05 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

yeah, well

it’s not a competition between Gooden and Tyrus. Tyrus needs to play.

But no, I do not like Gooden’s shot selection so far, even if he’s hitting them now. He’s not a post player either, and his FG% has been decreasing the past two seasons.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2008 11:14 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I agree...play Tyrus

If he develops enough, he could be very nice to add in a trade.

And you can’t knock Goodens post game when he’s going against Dwight Howard. He should be playing PF. He would have killed Rashard Lewis inside if given the opportunity. You act like it’s his fault they’re playing him at Center.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 4, 2008 11:22 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

It's his whole career.

sheesh.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2008 12:56 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Why judge him on his career?

that’s like saying BG will forever be a 6th man because he’s always been.

Or Nash should never have elevated his game in Phoenix.

People roles change and they can be a better fit in those roles. He was asked to do a lot of dirty work in Cleveland and that’s not all his game. He has about 25 games now the bulls posting a per over 17.5 Maybe we should take a closer look at him.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 4, 2008 2:14 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Maybe

but do you think he’s a post scorer? I don’t see it.

He may be an option but only if they’re convinced Tyrus isn’t.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2008 2:16 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I agree he's not an all-star 25ppg post scorer

but he’s an effective player that can average 16/10 and sign for a reasonable contract. If both were free agents right now, Tyrus might get more money and I’m not convinced he’ll ever be as good as Gooden is right now.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 4, 2008 2:23 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I don't think you're going to sign him for less than he currently makes

Especially if he has a good season and Tyrus doesn’t make any drastic leaps in his play. This is all months down the road anyways. I still don’t see how bringing Drew off the bench and letting Noah start is going to hurt this team. If Tyrus sucks Drew will still get minutes, and if anything his weird shot selection doesn’t look so stupid if he’s seen as the offensive force off the bench.

"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"

by Ozzie Montana on Nov 4, 2008 11:39 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

a

starting lineup with thabo, tyrus, noah and the (lately missing) deng would put us in a 20 point deficit within roughly 8-10 minutes of the tipoff.

it seems our second unit is being groomed for damage control on a nightly basis.

by leeac on Nov 4, 2008 12:33 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Very few teams under the cap

I think about 7 million is what he’s looking at.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 4, 2008 2:27 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

by the way

I did not read most of the comments in the venting thread…and if you’re going to be a reactionary goof, please put it there.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 3, 2008 11:33 PM CST   0 recs

I agree with you 100%

I just wrote it in a shorter way . .

What Gordon has to realize now that Derrick is playing
If he moves without the ball, Rose will find him!

Instead, he feels like the only way he’ll have a chance to save the game is for him to handle AND shoot when the game is on the line

by Option27 on Nov 3, 2008 6:46 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

by Option27 on Nov 3, 2008 11:37 PM CST   0 recs

I'm not sure Gordon

only feels that way – VDN IS the coach… he’s allowed to tell Gordon to give the ball to Rose in that situation. If he doesn’t, then the blame is on him more than Gordon, imo.

by kig on Nov 4, 2008 7:36 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

In Sam Smith's blog
“It is a good lineup,” Rose said of the three-guard. “But it is up to coach. We’re a young team and trying to get to know one another and play with each other. For us to go out there and come back like that really showed good signs.”
I’ve always believed in going with your best talent and what works best for you, no matter what the convention is. You try to put players in position to succeed. The Bulls don’t have post players. So don’t bother. Former coach Scott Skiles used three-guard sets often, but Del Negro isn’t as demanding on missed shots and there seems the potential to play with more freedom. Plus, I like to put opposing offenses, like Don Nelson does, in position to try to attack you because of a perceived match-up advantage with what they might not do best.

Link

by Option27 on Nov 3, 2008 11:44 PM CST   0 recs

I actually liked the uber-small lineup better

with Deng than Noc. That fits in better with the ‘just play your best’ strategy.

However I think the Magic were just a unique matchup. Their big players (besides Howard) are mostly shooters who rarely post up.

I’m guessing Sam Smith doesn’t value rebounding too much.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 3, 2008 11:59 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

That is if Deng was playing his game

Sure I think everyone would liek that lineup. But you’re an idiot if you think you’d rather have had Deng out over Nocioni yesterday, when Noc clearly was our on the court leader and was playing a very Nocioni game very well. Deng was in the shadows. There’s no need to keep praising him, he’s got his big, undeserved contract.

I want to see Deng attack and play to his abilities. I don’t think Deng takes nights off, which is good, but I do think he defers and loses confidence, which is a real shame and pisses me off.

Deng is far more talented than Noc all around, but Deng rarely plays to all of his abilities and so the gap between Deng the player and Nocioni the player creeps ever closer.

by majoyenrac on Nov 4, 2008 8:47 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

nah

Noc still stinks.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2008 8:50 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

i'm

convinced matt was slighted by noc a couple years back. maybe we’ll hear the story one day and the “aha” lightbulb will start to flicker.

by leeac on Nov 4, 2008 12:35 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Yeah

Maybe in a pickup game, Matt was driving to the basket and Noc clobbered him, then took the ball against Matt and drove to the lane, kneeing him in the gut and getting hacked in the arms and yelled and screamed and gave Nocioni’s team a great chance of getting back into this as the crazy guy who’ll do anything to win.

by majoyenrac on Nov 4, 2008 12:37 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Right now...

It’s Deng who’s stinking it up. We know how good he can be. He’s just not showing it right now. I don’t think we should bench him though. Deng will snap out of it in a week or two (I hope!).

Besides, I remember Noce saying last year that he didn’t like starting for the Bulls. Why? Coz that meant the team’s best players weren’t playing well. Noce would rather have Deng play in front of him because he knows if Deng is playing well, the Bulls can win. That’s team spirit.

by PatBull on Nov 4, 2008 9:39 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Nice wrap up

It was a game with shades of last year, but unlike last year we managed to somewhat fight our way back.

by Tobo on Nov 3, 2008 11:51 PM CST   0 recs

and if you recall in the pregame it was mentioned

that the bulls lost all four games last year to the magic by an average of 17 or so points.

by gman2849 on Nov 4, 2008 10:44 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

David Thorpe on Deng

David B. Thorpe at 9:52pm November 3

The Bulls have put in an entirely new offense, and it is not small forward friendly. As of now. Stay tuned!

by Option27 on Nov 4, 2008 12:03 AM CST   0 recs

It's time to stop hating Noce

He continues to pysch out his opponents and gives maximum effort every time he is on the floor. I still want TT to become the force I fantasize, but he needs to get his head out of his posterior and into the flow of the game if he doesn’t want to return to his seat on the end of the bench.
I ‘m hoping Deng will awake from his coma soon and maybe Ben will learn to stop ruining every close game with his pratfall performances when the game is on the line. There is a simple cure to this brain cramp disease….just put the ball in Rose’s hands and find an open spot on the floor.

VDN needs to tell Noah to put his bong away and pay more attention. My God, if he can’t even beat out the Bulls version of Herman Munster, maybe he should go into rehab or visit a shrink.
I will not give up, but this is really getting frustrating. Hurry and get the ship righted before the one man wrecking crew, Larry the leper, recovers and eats up even more valuable court time. Even Sam Smith is falling under the illusory spell of the 3 guard offense….been there, done that…..failed miserably. Rebounds are still important the last time I checked. Just ask Orlando’s manchild.

If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard

by Tyrusmancrush on Nov 4, 2008 12:10 AM CST   0 recs

Stop the Noce-Hate.

Nocioni and DRose seem to be the only ones who give 100% all the time (last year, it was just Noce!) and Deng’s shoes seem to have filled with concrete, now that his pockets are full.

TT is a basketball mirage and Noah seems to be hitching a ride with him.

Gordon needs to go, if we want DRose to be The Man. Gordon doesn’t seem to have Scottie Pippen’s mental fortitude to accept that he’s playing with a much better player and that he can still be a HOFer and one of the NBA’s best playerseven if he plays sidekick.

by PatBull on Nov 4, 2008 4:32 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

well said

It aint easy bein' Piatkowski

by Yibs on Nov 4, 2008 8:50 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Gordon

Had a good game. A bad turnover and a horrible shot notwithstanding. Gordon was instrumental in our come back, and I think VDN needs to just work with Gordon and say, he can be our shooter, but that he needs to have Rose be our PG to get BG the best possible shot.

I don’t understand how it’s Kirk’s our 4th quarter PG, Rose is our SG, and yesterday at least BG was our SF….and then the last shot, it’s Gordon (easily the worst facilitator and ball handler of the 3 taking the ball downt he court and forcing a shot). He might have had to do that at times with Kirk, but there is no reason for him to keep doing that with Rose on the floor.

Though I would still have Gordon our first option to take the final shot, Gordon shouldn’t be the guy creating that opportunity, and hopefully VDN knows this and teaches this to the team.

by majoyenrac on Nov 4, 2008 8:51 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

it also points to the new offense

and players who better fit it.

by gman2849 on Nov 4, 2008 10:45 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

well, i'm optimistic, and i think it's only a matter of time till rose takes the ball and everyone else realizes that's the way it should be.

he’s only gonna get more confident and more assertive. there will come a time, hopefully sooner rather than later, when the supporting cast will understand that the best chance to win occurs with rose with the ball. they’ll all get a chance to score points, but they won’t need to try to create their own shot.

Cashing checks and having sex.

by MarketMaker on Nov 4, 2008 12:19 AM CST   0 recs

Just in case no one noticed

Rose had his worst game of the season, and wasn’t going to win this game by himself.
That said Deng and Thomas were beyond description awful, at this rate they might rate as the worst starting forward tandem in the league.

Gooden is not a center, and transgresions not withstanding Noah should start at center until we acquire Howard, or Yao Ming, or Bynum or you get the idea.

Gooden should start at the 4. Thomas has already proven that he is simply too stupid as a human being to even be an NBA player. Unfortunately, I would demote Thomas to the third, with Nocioni being Goodens backup at the 4.

As Jeff Van Gundy said, more than once during Fridays telecast against the Celtics Nocioni is better as a small power forward than he is as a small forward. This was obvious tonight.

When we go to a three guard I would prefer to see Thabo at the 3. I actually think he might be a better matchup at the 3 especially defensively, although Hinrich did a much better job tonight against TurkeyGlue than Deng did.

We are basically a small team, so we have to find a way to play to our strengths.

New starting lineup; Rose, Thabo, Deng(for now anyway) Gooden and Noah. If Deng continues, fuck his salary, put him on the bench, start Thabo at the 3 and move HInrich into the starting lineup, or heaven forbid, Gordon, or Hughes.

by BigWay on Nov 4, 2008 12:32 AM CST   0 recs

I agree

Noah needs to get more time. He’s a talented player who isn’t doing as much as he can in the stints he gets. That Battie block yesterday was awful, but Noah’s passing, hustle and grit help. And playing him will improve his D against the best. Gooden’s a solid PF too…..not as good at C.

I would rather for now keep the lineup as is to hopefully get Tyrus back into the confident player he was in the preaseason and pre Garnett….but his leash is shrinking, which is a real shame.

God I almost hate having Tyrus on our team. He makes plays and things few players in the league can do, and yet he still can’t be counted on to play major minutes…..I worry we trade him and he figures it out…..but at this point he’s still worse off that Tyson Chandler was in year 3….

by majoyenrac on Nov 4, 2008 8:55 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

It was a good games

I know we lost, and that sux, but really this was a good game.

I dont think orlando can be considered a great team, but they are the teams we definetly gotta beat to get some respect in the league. I think this game really should have been ours.

One key thing i noticed, and so did stacey, that we won the 2nd and 4th quarters of the game and lost the 1st and 3rd. The main reasons for this is Thabo, Deng, and Tyrus. Im not gonna pull a ‘they suck, trade them now’ rant (enough people will do that for me :>) ) but they clearly were not helping us at all in this game, and ultimately i think that is what led to the 3 guard lineup.

Thabo had a couple of good defensive plays, but his turnovers turned me off. That and his inability to score especially since he is more of slasher, and howard would have killed him had he tried that. Which was also the biggest problem for deng and tyrus.

Those three werent impacting the game at all, and were playing against their strengths which on the offensive side is taking it to the rim. The three guard lineup was working because our three guards were either defending well (hinrich) shooting well (gordon) or were named rose (hall of famer) and noch was completely unafraid of howard.

The end of the game play by gordon was foreshadowed when gordon hit the end of the half jump shot, maybe it was gordons fault for taking the shot, maybe hinrichs for giving the ball to gordon or vdn for not calling timeout, but that play really was bad. No one wouldve minded rose missing the shot, everyone hated gordon for missing it.

Hinrich didnt get involved in the offense, mainly due to his lack of of offensive moves, he is only effective taking shots that are open rather then contested. his defense was good on turkoglu but his play overall wasnt amazing. If it wasnt for the poor performaces by deng thabo and tyrus hinrich wouldve seen more bench time. Gordon looked good out there on offense, but he portrayed that need to control the ball to score. Rose gave him a few nice dishes where he shouldve just popped the shot, but he either missed or decided to put the ball down.

Well the cavs are gonna scare me, but i see us beating the suns….

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....

by piccolomair on Nov 4, 2008 1:30 AM CST   0 recs

i think we have a better chance against the Cavs

I’m not liking our chances against Shaq and Amare. If they give the ball to Rose however, he should live in the lane because the Suns are bad defensively.

by DangerMouse on Nov 4, 2008 8:52 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Good Rap Up and comments

Now, we’ll see how VDN and Paxs responds..

by exult463 on Nov 4, 2008 5:13 AM CST   0 recs

This is going to sound strange, but

winning in Memphis was the worst thing that could have happened. The Bulls played exactly the same way tonight that they did then. The difference is they won, so naturally they think that they can keep playing that way and win. To me the play seems to be getting worse as the season progresses, and you can almost see the trend in Rose’s assist numbers. The only game that the Bulls played together was the Bucks game, when Rose had 9 assists. This also reflects in the teams assist totals. They had 27 assists vs. the Bucks then 13, 19, and 11. Until the team starts playing TOGETHER, then they will keep being inept on offense. As far as the players go, Tryus is playing really soft, Noah has zero energy, Gooden is a black hole, Deng is too but he is also playing like he is lost on offense. That’s not to say that these players are our only problems, but they are the most glaring and frustrating to me.

"Rest satisified with doing well and leave others to talk of you as they please"

by Bigred15 on Nov 4, 2008 8:04 AM CST   0 recs

When everybody said the Bulls would struggle

because of a new system, new coach, and new point guard, this is what they meant. There’s a Serbian word that describes what was out there on the floor – gushva. It means choas to the n-th degree.

The Bulls, right now, are gushva. They don’t really run offense, because nobody’s moving. They don’t really play help defense. Nobody’s in an established role.

I realize that it will take time for things to get better. But here’s the thing – Vinny’s never done this before. Never installed an offense, never run drills. I can’t help but think it would be more useful to Derrick to have somebody who knows what they’re doing.

There’s talent here, which is what makes it frustrating.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Nov 4, 2008 8:16 AM CST   0 recs

In the 2nd section of today's daily dime,

Hollinger talks about he Bulls offense…
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-081104

"Worker bees can leave.
Even drones can fly away.
The Queen is their slave."

by jpchi on Nov 4, 2008 8:26 AM CST to parent up   1 recs

For those who say Hollinger is a know-nothing number cruncher

His analysis of the Bulls seems pretty much on the money.

I know it’s early, but that’s sort of what concerns me. We aren’t scraping for games at this point, we ought to be working hard to develop Rose and make the system work.

He needs to be out there with a shooter, and he definitely needs the ball in his hands, not standing in a corner.

And yeah, I know it’s only one game, but it’s definitely a trend at this point, as is the poor off-the-ball movement, which pretty much disappeared after the first game.

by Sports2 on Nov 4, 2008 8:41 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I agree

I agree with most of what he said. Unfortunately, I think his appraisal of the Bulls’ offense as “European” is generous. It just doesn’t resemble what we’re used to seeing in the NBA, which is a modicum of organization.

Here’s the main issue for me. BG, Deng, Tyrus – everybody except Nocioni – are doing a terrible job getting open. When playing with an elite point guard, you don’t just stand still. Your man moves to help, and you move. You don’t cut all the way to the basket, no. But you do cut, opening the space for both the pass to be made and a shot to be taken. Derrick has to not overpenetrate, too. But the main issue, at this point, is that the Bulls big guns are just standing out there, waiting for the ball to be delievered.

That’s not how it happens. You float to the corner. You make an L-cut to the space Rose vacated. You do anything but a) stand there b) cut to where Rose is driving. I’ve seen both of those boneheaded moves.

But hey, it’s gonna take time. ::deep breaths:: Time and patience.

(I just thought we’d have to be patient with Rose, not the other guys.)

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Nov 4, 2008 8:53 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I hate Nocioni. He might not be selfish, but his play is.

Gordon drove to the lane, found his shot contested and passed out to Nocioni. He then floated to the corner, left uncovered. Nocioni drove to the lane, found his shot contested… and , w/ Gordon clearly in his vision wide open… shot the ball.

by tyger1147 on Nov 4, 2008 8:56 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

One play

And Noc the aggressor was getting to the line.

by majoyenrac on Nov 4, 2008 8:58 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I know, admittedly, I didn't watch much of the second-half

And that play pissed me off. If I was another poster, I might harp on that play as evidence or something. I do wish Nocioni had more “timely” or “appropriate” aggression.

by tyger1147 on Nov 4, 2008 9:00 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Hate him as much as you want,

he’s fit with Rose better than anybody on the team. I don’t think it’s close, either.

Which is sad.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Nov 4, 2008 9:03 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I'd agree with that for now

Hopefully, before the end of the season that will change.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Nov 4, 2008 9:04 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

only when he makes shots

all the ‘little things’ he does is actually a negative. Like losing his man on defense, fouling often and excessively, shot-jackin.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2008 9:09 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Right. People talk about Gordon is "only" a shooter.

That’s better than only being a shooter w/ a bunch of little negative things, too. At least in my opinion.

by tyger1147 on Nov 4, 2008 9:12 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

True,

but he is getting open. He’s using Rose’s abilities to put himself in a position to succeed. Luol and BG haven’t done that. On the contrary, they’re engaged in a tug of war with Rose to see who gets to dominate the ball.

The minute those three accept their roles this team will start to succeed. If they do that and play defense, they could be very good.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Nov 4, 2008 9:16 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I think BG's done that too

Though he’s barely played with Rose.

Luol, nope. But what the hell everyone, they’re not going to sit Deng for Nocioni. Deng’s the team’s SF for the future whether he sucks or not, and most evidence points to him not sucking.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2008 9:37 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Which is why, I'm convinced, Gordon wanted so much money.

Nothing to do w/ ego or whatever. Just “stability”. If they pay him more, he’s the starting SG of the future. And they aren’t likely to trade him anytime soon. I don’t know why, but I feel secure in my assumption that that is why he wanted “leading-scorer” money.

Anyway, I just read the BG-contract-revelation fanshot…

by tyger1147 on Nov 4, 2008 9:45 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Maybe

Hollinger’s analysis was more spot on that normal because he actually was asked to watch this game, rather than just crunch the numbers and watch highlights…..

I’ve never said Hollinger didn’t know what he was talkign about (I’ve often been slightly negative on him), I just think when he doesn’t watch the games he uses the numbers a bit too much to skew his opinions, and often times those opinions directly oppose to what I’ve seen. It’s not just on the Bulls either—because I do watch quite a few other games—but mostly ont ehBulls since I easily watch them the most and follow them the most closely.

But now that we have Derrick Rose, ESPN likely wants to get their numbers expert and solid analyst to actually watch and observe the game, and that’s what lead to Hollinger’s great analysis of our play in today’s daily dime….

by majoyenrac on Nov 4, 2008 9:23 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I know

You evaluate some games from stats….but Hollinger seemed to NEVER watch the Bulls, and that’s his problem…..

But as this post proves, when he does watch he’s good. I think he’s watched very little of us over the past 1.5 years.

by majoyenrac on Nov 4, 2008 9:53 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I don't think MOST have watched the Bulls.

He says the same things anyone else says from national telecasts. Or seems like it. At least he’s trying to find a better way to evaluate them.

by tyger1147 on Nov 4, 2008 10:13 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

So don't defend him when he's wrong
better way to evaluate them

Let him search. He’ll come up with something eventually. In the end, most fans are going to want to win that night, not blog about 3-5 year trends.

In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.

by NBA Observer on Nov 4, 2008 12:30 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Exactly

I do think when Hollinger follows a team (in the past few years more geared towards Spurs, Suns, Heat, Mavericks, Cavs, etc) he’s on point and mostly has awesome arguments, where he uses his visuals to come up with ideas and then the stats to further the arguments….in reading him over the years you can generally see a stylistic change when he’s forcing numbers into an argument, rather than when he’s watched/followed that team….

He’s very good when he watches, when he doesn’t (such as 2 years ago when he claimed the Bulls were easily the best team int he East and that the Bulls could likely beat the best in the West because of their point differential and style, when anyone watching the Bulls knew Detroit still was the leader (even though Cleveland ousted them, Detroit was the faves) and that the Bulls inside weakness was a real concern….we had a chance if the pieces fell to do well, but we most certainly weren’t the favorites with our holes (And that’s just a more recent observation—I had insider for a year and loved Hollinger at first and then gradually was turned off—though I still read his freebies and generally like his player rating comments, but like his team comments far less)….

by majoyenrac on Nov 4, 2008 12:43 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I generally take some from Thorpe and some from Hollinger

Thorpe watches a ton of games, not sure about Hollinger. Analysis from both can put things into perspective.

by messwiththebull on Nov 4, 2008 1:55 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

There is hope.

The Bulls had the ball with what was potentially the last possession with the shot clock off, rather than call a time out like they are supposed to, they pushed the ball up the court and Gordon took a bad shot. If the coach/players had made the right play in that situation, we could be discussing how we pulled on out…

The fact is we have a rookie coach with a rookie star…both of whom showed their greenness last night down the stretch…we will get better as the players begin to learn their roles and the coach learns how to use them in those roles. But those types of chemistry issues take time.

"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson

by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 4, 2008 8:24 AM CST   0 recs

we're not that simplistic

it wasn’t just the last possession, Rose was a bystander for most of his final stint in the game.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2008 8:57 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I watched the game

again yesterday, and really liked our grit.

I actually thought Kirk Hinrich was a major factor yesterday. His defense was incredible, he made Turkoglu look like Adam Morrison. And to say the 3 guard lineup folded, is a bit much, the two times we went to that lineup, we made the game competitive.

Ben Gordon took a very ill-advised shot. I was pissed when he threw that tough shot up there with