Joakim Noah and +/-

by California Al on Nov 28, 2008 3:47 AM CST

Looking for some informed opinions on what to make of his performance and how it relates to the team's performance. Like everyone else, I'm disappointed that he didn't take his career seriously enough this summer and showed up in poor shape. But I've still noticed that all in all, the team plays better during his stints than during his benchings. This doesn't surprise me, as I've always thought and still think that his primary focus is on team results, and he does the other things, which I don't consider the "little" things.

There was a play at the end of the half in Utah that symbolizes what I like about him being out there. Okur had taken him out to the three on the weak side. I think Kirilenko had the ball and was killing the clock. When he broke for the basket, Noah abandoned Okur to help in the lane, not sure if he affected the shot at all, but he was able to get the rebound, tried the quick outlet to Rose, pulled it back when it wasn't there and waited for him to come back to the ball. Rose made an unbelievable end to end layup at the buzzer.

He's a low usage facilitator. He seems to have a Rodman-like sense to get to the ball. His know-how in help defense may have a way to go, but his desire is 100%. I think his frame will fill out naturally with maturation. We have a team full of shooters. Rose and Hinrich seem to be the only ones capable of giving up the ball except out of desperation. I don't see a superstar center coming our way, and I doubt that BG, Hughes, Gooden, Noc, etc would pass up a shot for anyone less than Howard, Duncan, etc, and maybe not even then. In the meantime, I've been looking at popcornmachine's game flow the past half-dozen games or so, and his +/- is better than the team's performance just about every time. I translate this as validation of my opinion that he contributes in a lot of ways that don't reach the stat line.

I also realize that we see what we want to see in stats, and +/- seems to infuriate some members here that are much more educated in these matters than I ever hope to be. So, I guess I'm asking for help in interpreting the data. Does his value override his weaknesses, or am I guilty of wishful watching? It just seems to me that he's a good ballhawk, a good team defender, and is content to help others do the scoring, and the sum of it all is that the team plays better when he's on the court.

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I think Noah is good.

He does a lot of stuff that doesn’t get in the stat books, etc. etc.
His main problem is that he’s not in shape right now, which negates his energy a bit. Also, he’s not large. Maybe that will change, but I don’t think so. But … he’s like Anderson Varejao, only taller. And better.
He’s our starting center for the future – at least for next year if he gets his act together.

"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com

by Prevenge on Nov 28, 2008 5:21 AM CST 0 recs

Noah is our future starting center

From this position we need four things.
1) Rebounding
2) Screen and rolls
3) Passing
4) Defense

Noah can do all these things already and he does them pretty well. The conditioning will keep him off the floor either by Vinny’s prerogative or through foul trouble. Noah is too versatile to get beaten by his man while changing ends. A more effective and structured offense will help Noah because he wants to crash the boards on offense. If he doesn’t or a teammate doesn’t corral that loose ball then he’s going to be out of position in transition. This is how Horford whooped him all night.

I see Noah filling out into our better version of Joel Pryzbilla. If the conditioning improves I see him becoming more effective around the rim. His FG% just plummets because he throws the ball at the rim and looks to get tap backs for buckets.

He asked for big man coaching last season. He wants to improve at this level. He’s got to show us that he’s willing to get his body to the level it has to be to even hope of getting better.

Run Noah Run!

In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.

by NBA Observer on Nov 28, 2008 10:35 AM CST 0 recs

Based on just pure potential,

our future starting center is Asik. My understanding is he can do all the things you mentioned skillfully and at a highly athletic level of play.

by Mattchoo on Nov 28, 2008 10:43 AM CST up 0 recs

just imagine if he had two working legs

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 28, 2008 11:44 AM CST up 0 recs

To what do you refer?

Does Omer have bad wheels?

by arjoseph on Dec 2, 2008 11:49 AM CST up 0 recs

one is broke right now

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Dec 3, 2008 5:27 PM CST up 0 recs

Time will tell

We all hope he can be something special, but we cannot bank anything on him. He hasn’t even played a single game at NBA level competition. That being said…. I hope he will be the next Dikembe Mutumbo.

"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan

by bennythebull on Nov 28, 2008 12:09 PM CST up 0 recs

how about the next poor man's Brad Sellers or Will Perdue

We are the Bulls, time already told! What are you waiting for, a freight train to derail. It has come of the track three times over.

I don’t understand the Mutumbo comparisons? Paxson gave Mutumbo away to Houston for basically nothing a number of years back. Why do we continue to give Paxson a free ride and try to hide our eyes, and occassionaly note Paxson giving away J.R. Smith, LMA, PJ Brown, Jamal Crawford, Tyson Chandler and next on the list to be Ben Gordon. (All players, including Mutombo were once Bulls players during Paxson’s rein)

Now, why try to recreate Mutumbo with Asik, Paxson didn’t want the original. I suspect Mutumbo still jumps better today than Asik being at least twice or three times his age. Noah jumps better and probably even Aaron Gray jumps better, what else can Asik do that they (NBA experienced) can’t?

http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?clubcode=ulk&pcode=000709

Yet, I agree with you comment “He hasn’t even played a single game in the NBA” … Furthermore, I doubt if he ever will on the Bulls.

I hope Noah improves his conditioning and not to become a “reefer – bud head” lifer. He looks good on the floor initially without Tyrus, but one of the major issues is conditioning. Noah gets winded early and then starts to miss defensive assignments and then goes into a similar Tyrus jog mode.

VDN then pulls the switch, can’t blame him, but then he unwisely keeps Noah out too long afterwards and Noah intensity now cools down. The VDN then puts him back in the 4th qtr or so, and Noah is lost at this point.

man up!

by exult463 on Nov 28, 2008 7:12 PM CST up 0 recs

I agree with your assessment of VDN's handling

But what I’m asking about is if the +/- numbers are evidence that he’s a good fit, and belongs out there in spite of a few errors. That’s my gut feeling. And leave him out there until he pukes. He knows how to play ball, plays good team ball, and I think he’ll evolve an NBA appropriate game. & foot, quick, and energetic is a nice combination. I’m hoping on the whole filling out a little with age thing, but that’s not abnormal.
I think he’s our best center, not even close. If we get a chance for a dominant center, cool, but until then, face facts and play him.

by California Al on Nov 29, 2008 1:49 AM CST up 0 recs

Three things to start with

1. The key word in that statement was “hope”
2. I was referring to the all star, peak of his career Mutumbo in Denver, not the worn out has been that played for the Bulls.
3. Again the key word was hope.

I was hoping Mutumbo because he was not an overwhelming offensive presence, but he was always good for double digit ppg. He was also a great shot blocker and excellent rebounder. Asik is being billed as a great shot blocker and a great rebounder. A defensive stopper and strong rebounder that isn’t a detrement on offense would be a great piece for any team.

Besides if we can stumble into the #1 pick and end up with Rose, then why not get a gem out of the 2nd round? I don’t recall saying anything about Paxson’s prowess and cunning skills as an NBA GM.*sarcasm

You can hate all you want on Pax, most of it deserving….
But, you can’t stop me from dreaming, it’s the only way I’ve gotten through the last ten seasons! LOL

"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan

by bennythebull on Nov 29, 2008 11:14 AM CST up 0 recs

well said.. no comment

man up!

by exult463 on Nov 30, 2008 4:01 PM CST up 0 recs

Posting European stats means almost nothing.

Completely different game over there. I’m waiting for Hollinger to run his formula prognosticating, based on European stats, how well a guy will translate to NBA ball. Won’t happen for a while, though.

by arjoseph on Dec 2, 2008 11:51 AM CST up 0 recs

I'm from Missouri on Euro league players

Kukoc was the European Magic Johnson. That’s approximately like a 6th grade next Michael Jordan. Show me.

by California Al on Nov 29, 2008 1:33 AM CST up 0 recs

Apparently Noah is like Shaq

in one way only, he needs to play himself into shape. Vinnie just needs to keep throwing him out there, way more than he has so far. I still beleive that by midseason he should be able to play 30+ and record a doulble double.

by BigWay on Nov 29, 2008 12:57 AM CST 0 recs

Dude, are you me with a different nickname?

;)

I also believe Noah should get more burn because he contributes in ways that don’t show up in normal stats. He was team-best last year in +/-.

by BAB-Bass on Nov 29, 2008 10:09 AM CST 0 recs

We agree a lot

You know basic bball and like to see professionals understand the game at least at the j/v level. They are all spectacular athletes. When they accept the trainiing that people have been offering every step of the way, they’re well prepared when they suddenly find themselves playing against 400 or so peers who are their equal or superior physically. If not, the holes in their game bury them, and sadly, their teammates and fans.

by California Al on Nov 29, 2008 9:23 PM CST up 0 recs

Excactly

by BAB-Bass on Nov 30, 2008 4:56 AM CST up 0 recs

If Noah doesn't start most games at C it will be his own fault

His lack of conditioning is kind of annoying. He’s not the only player under 25 playing in the NBA who likes to have fun and whatever. You can still do all that extracurricular stuff while keeping your body in playing shape. For the team’s sake I hope he works himself into shape so he can play 30+ minutes a game.

"It never is, because I'm the Shogun. And before you get to the Shogun, you gotta go through a lot of ninjas."

by Ozzie Montana on Nov 29, 2008 11:14 AM CST 0 recs

True that, BUT

in shitty condition, the team still plays better when he’s in, unless the steady string of positive +/-‘s is deceiving. That’s why I posted it as a question. Plus the fact that he’s the only center who may be able to start in the NBA.

by California Al on Nov 29, 2008 9:27 PM CST up 0 recs

I agree he should play more and longer

if VDN starts Noah and then takes him out for a 1 minute break or so when Noah gets initially winded, and gives him some advice (if he has any?) while he catches his breath.

Then puts him immediately back in and stays the course with him, good and bad. Noah will consistently for longer periods become the productive player whom you indicated in the +/-.

Billy Donovon seem to understand and accept this “strange” mannor in which Noah responds initially getting winded at the start of each half, but after the initial out of breath and a little rest, Noah was ok for longer periods for the rest of the half. I remember this being discussed during the NCAA Finals.

man up!

by exult463 on Nov 30, 2008 4:17 PM CST up 0 recs

That's the strategy I've been recommending

for Tyrus. Never heard it mentioned while Noah was at Florida; interesting. Maybe he needs that first blow to break a sweat and exhaust some of the toxins. Ahhh, to be 22 and rich. Actually, I’d take either one :-)

by California Al on Nov 30, 2008 8:18 PM CST up 0 recs

Of course him being out of shape

is very disappointing (verging on infuriating for fans of his…) but he’s still our best center. We have only ONE other center on the team (Gray) in spite of what VDN apparently thinks…

by BAB-Bass on Nov 30, 2008 4:55 AM CST up 0 recs

I am still a Noah fan..

..if we trade him, it will be Chandler all over again.

We just need to give him more playing time, and reduce time for losers like Hughes and Nocioni.

by bullsfaninbigapple on Dec 5, 2008 12:28 PM CST 0 recs

I disagree

Chandler had a couple of things going against him at the time
-the coach
-the personnel

Noah doesn’t have those same things. VDN is pretty much anti-Skiles and Rose playing the point is completely different than Hinrich. If Chandler had at least ONE of the things that Noah now has the situation would’ve been different in my eyes.

by NormVanBeer on Dec 5, 2008 4:24 PM CST up 0 recs