The many frames of Tyrus Thomas.
by mandoman10 on Nov 22, 2008 5:18 PM CST
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Recently, I remembered a bullet on TrueHoop about a bull related trade idea I had read along time ago. I searched and searched until i found it. im gonna post it then react to it after... here it is...
TrueHoop reader Chris, a Bulls fan, writes: "I'm a huge Bulls fan and am playing GM. As I see it, we have a few major issues still remaining on this team. First, we need to trade Hinrich and Nocioni, not because I don't love them, but because we're not in a position to have their salaries on our payroll and have them come off the bench. Secondly, while many die-hard Bulls fans still believe Tyrus Thomas is the second coming of Shawn Kemp (in a good way, I hope), we need a proven scoring-oriented big who can also rebound. And finally, we have 10 men in our eight-man rotation. The Lakers are natural suitors for us. Anyone who watched the Finals sees they they need a lot of toughness and defense to surround Kobe with. So I propose this to you: Why don't the Lakers swap Lamar Odom (and a salary filler, like Coby Karl) to the Bulls for Hinrich, Nocioni, and maybe a throw-in or protected draft pick? Although we saw how soft Odom can be at times, he's a 6-10 scorer who has proven he can get his 10 rebounds a game. Playing along guys like Thomas and Noah will take a lot of the pressure off him to be a great defender, and allow him to freelance. On the other hand, I think Hinrich, who does the little things so well and plays defense could look like an all-star next to Kobe. Additionally, how great would Nocioni be off that bench? He'd immediately be the second toughest player on the Lakers. He can play stifling defense, put up 25 in any game, and has shown how clutch he is on the world's largest stages."
Ok im not saying lamar odom is the answer. that isn't the reason i am posting this.
Tyrus Thomas is the reason i am posting this.
Now, i am what i would call a tyrus thomas fanatic and I am going to explain to you why we are devoted to charting his development and set back, why in the hell he is so damn important for us.
We have taken three positions with tyrus thomas, three ways of interpreting, framing, and justifying his play.
You all are well aquatinted with the "he just needs playing time" to get into gear. This has been the main reaction to him during his first years in the league under scott Skiles. It has crept back up when Vinny keeps aron gray in for long stretches, im sure you have noticed this.
The origins of the second and third frames of Tyrus Thomas emerged over what transpired in the summer. First, the coach was fired and new one was picked by a GM who wanted to give TT playing time, presumably that meant the coach was goign to give TT playing time. Second, apparently TT went to David Thorpe's amazing summer camp where they teach you how to be a "professional" basketball player. They give you stamina, show you how to rebound, how to change ends, how to shoot jumpers appropriately, how to play d... all the fundamentals that would make one a constant contributor on a team. This is the camp that made udonis haslem a serviceable player and got kevin martin major bucks. Thrope was talking about tyrus and his new steady work ethic and talent. Third, we heard that he was taking 500 jump shots a day and was now a dead eye shooter, which showed in the preseason.
So what did that lead us to say? Tyrus Thomas is gonna have a break out year in 2008/09 cause he worked hard in summer and is gonna get the playing time.
Now you all know what has happened this year and im not gonna re-has how bad he has been. What have been the two dominate justifications for tyrus thomas's existence this year?
First, that we should lower our expectations and be happy when he contributes about 7 points and 7 rebounds and gets his one steal and one block per game. We should be happy when he isn't over-aggressive trying to score and if he can just not make too many mistakes during his 25 min stints he can be a serviceable player. Lowering the expectations of him has allowed us to go on in peace and not commit suicide.
Second, Tyrus Thomas is a bust.
An example exchange in the comments of this blog after the bulls loss to the lakers in which Tyrus had one of those "solid" but not stellar games.
Unrealcity wrote:
"TT looked good tonight. He drove the lane, blocked shots and made some athletic plays (and some dumb turnovers). But overall, he played great because he stayed within himself. Hopefully he can watch the tape and emulate these type performances and stop jacking up so many jumpers"
then
RogersPark Kirss responded:
Tyrus played "great"??? Why are Bulls fans content with him playing 31 minutes and only getting 9 points (mostly against the Lakers 2nd/third team) and 5 f*cking rebounds! Remember, Tyrus was a number 2 pick and should be coming into his own in his third year. Thomas will go down as one of the all time Bulls draft pick BUSTS.
then
Your friendly BullsBlogger replied with.. "yeah, I'd say he played 'fine.' but relative to his season so far, it was great. He’s certainly had better games before. Oh, sorry, you want to start BUST talk. With capitals!
The frame of tyrus at this point, since hes gotten his minutes oscillates between being happy with tyrus being a "solid" player and being extremely disappointed he is not all-star caliber. I cant tell you how much of a tyrus thomas hopefull i am. I want him to be way better then he so bad that it actually hurts me. I see the missed wide open jump shots. I see the million times he gets around his man on a good quick move and blows the layup. I see the way he floats on the perimter and doesn't really look to get set up by the guards in the paint. I see how he converts on offense when the game is out of hand and nothing matters. I see blocked shots, i see the steals, i see all that and it makes me think that his problem is just mental. Those types of mistakes do not have to do with his inablity to physically make stuff happen. It isn't the defense and that he can't get it done. It is a mental block. You all know what it means to not have alot of confidence on the court. You have the ability you just need to get over that mental hump and all those missed layups and wide open jump shots will go in. I keep telling myself that any day now Tyrus is going to blow up.
I remember a daily dish episode of ESPN in which they were interviewing Hollinger or one of those guys and he was asked who would be the loser between chicago and Miami over their draft selections. The reply was that Rose was gonna be great and so was Beasley, but unless chicago could solve its front court problems, no matter how good Rose was, they would end up regretting their pick. Solve for him meant either develop one of their young front court guys (i.e. TT) or trade a back court player for a solid big.
So what do say to all this. Do we continue to oscillate between being satisfied with thinking he is a bust or thinking he can be a solid contributer? Or are we resigned to what "your friendly BullBlogger" will probably say, given that it is his position on just about every controversy: we just have to wait and see.
Ill i have to say is this: this version of this team, its ownership, its gm, its coach and everyone on the squad except DR is contigent upon Tyrus Thomas being an all-star. Hear me out. If in fact Tyrus is a "bust" or even if he is just solid then the whole thing is defunct. I think i remember the friendly bullblogger saying this once: if Tyrus is a bust then paxson has to be fired. And isn't it true? Think about it. The gm is the one that traded an all-star caliber player for him so he is the one that has created the standard for TT. That means the gm placed those expectations on him. The gm raised him to that level. The gm did what he was supposed to: make a judgment call on the future play of two unproven players. If in fact he chose wrong then that means he failed at his job. This version of this team, its gm, its ownership, all the players associated with them (except DR) with a front court dependent on the development of tyrus thomas, must be blown up if if tyrus thomas in fact doesn't pan out.
So i agree that its to early to tell about tyrus, his problems strike me as more mental then physical, hes only 22 and we can afford to wait and see. But if he in fact doesn't become an all-star caliber player, then we must be resigned to the fact that this team and all its decision makers must move forward with change.
I hope to god tyrus pans out.
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Excellent post
I completely agree with the section about Pax needing to assume responsibility for trading LA for TT. It’s just crazy because he had always gone with high character winners and Aldridge was that guy in the 2006 draft.
I’m like you, i’m a HUGE TT apologist and he has the second longest leash on the team as far as I’m concerned. We HAVE to allow him to play through his mistakes and we HAVE to put him near the basket on the offensive end. I just get so frustrated with our offense because TT is always just picking and popping or simply standing around on the perimeter. He needs to be slashing or roaming the baseline to be effective.
I’ll be honest with you, when TT is not on the court (especially when Noah is sitting), I can not believe we get ANY rebounds. Gooden is a poor rebounder and the worst defender in the history of mankind and he absolutely is not in this organization’s future, so WHY is he eating up so many minutes? I understand using him so much last night b/c he could actually use his size to his advantage against golden state, and he did that very well and had a great game. But I’m sick of seeing Gooden eat up all of TT/Noah’s minutes.
I am still hopeful that TT will turn it around this year, I mean we have 70 games to go. I just keep telling myself that if we had kept Aldridge, we wouldn’t have lucked out and wound up with Derrick POINT GOD Rose.
Awesome post though man.
I don't understand how you can say that.
The Bulls lucked into getting Rose anyway. You can’t justify a trade with an uncontrollable thing like the lottery. Paxson made a bad move in trading Aldridge for Thomas. The fact that Rose fell into his lap doesn’t make it any better. My point is that Paxson should not be the GM of this team. Thabo, Tyrus, Noah, Hinrich, Deng and Gordon are all lottery picks. Only Gordon, Deng and Hinrich have become serviceable players, and they have already maxed out in terms of potential. It’s clear that Paxson made a mistake in giving Deng that huge deal(I never thought Deng was destined for the super stardom that many others thought after that drubbing of Miami in the 1st round). Of those six lottery picks Paxson has three decent players, two big men with no big men skills and one wing-man who has one good game a month. And thats without looking at some of the trades and non-trades throughout his tenure.
the bulls
did not have the worst record in the league. they just got lucky in the draft. in fact, having aldridge may not have guaranteed a non-lottery pick in which case they would still be eligible for winning the first pick.
but this is a question for the space-time continuum and is a past present future parodox. so ignore it. the question you need to ask yourself is if Tyrus Thomas is only just a "contributer" what does that mean for the bulls team. In the words of hollinger if the bulls never develop a pf or trade for one then they will regret drafting rose no matter how good rose is.
When TT was drafted,
the expectation was the Bulls would be making the playoffs every years for the near future, and having mid to late first round draft picks. While in hindsight, having TT and Rose is better than LMA and say, Robin Lopez, Paxson should be judged by the expectation that TT would be his last low Bulls lottery pick for some time (Noah was selected with the pick from the Curry trade).
by Granny Waiters on Nov 24, 2008 6:27 PM CST up reply actions
i agree with you on Gooden...
honestly, i think that vinny d and paxson are trying to win and that is why gooden is playing. gooden gives them the best chance to win. the problem is fans like you and me would rather develop younger more promising players with “ridiculous upside” and get a worse record for high draft picks then barely fight for a playoff spot. If it where up to me and im not a coach TT would be playing 40 min a game and i would be ok with losing every game as a result of it.
We should not play to develop. We should play to win.
1. Rose wants to win. This is his team. We are hurting ourselves if we subject Rose to a year or two of “rebuilding” where we play our young guys just to develop them. Development comes by earning minutes, not just playing. It comes by playing in meaningful games with a chance to win, not garbage games where the other team puts their second unit in in the second quarter and never takes them out. And besides, the playoffs can only be experienced, not explained, so the sooner we get Rose there to get waxed in the first round by Celtics/Cavs so that he knows what to expect, the better.
2. Hoping for draft picks is a bad plan. Many of the prospects who now look decent from this last draft came out late in the first or in the second round, including our very own in the form of Omer Asik. So who knows, maybe we already have our front court player of the future.
3. He is only 22!!! Look I like TT. I’m no apologist for him, but I love it when a play he is trying to do in his head works out. His instincts are just off sometimes. You can learn this to some extent though. Look at Ben Wallace? Genius? No. Leaper? Yes! I think he has a lot more in common with Big Ben then Noah does. If TT keeps going to Thorpe or Tim Grover each summer and builds up some muscle, watch out. It took Big Ben years to get to his Defensive Player of the Year form and I think five teams. Several at least. TT doesn’t look like Stromile to me. But Mandoman10, you are exactly right. The problem is expectations. As Sam Smith often writes, who cares how much money they make? That shouldn’t be factored in to how good of a player they are or how well they fit on the team. Obviously, contracts matter a whole lot due to other pieces that you can add, but I mean when evaluating a player. And who cares if TT isn’t Big Ben this year. Here’s an idea. What if we actually brought in a big man coach to help coach our three young bigs? What about Antonio Davis? He could teach toughness in the paint and show them what they need to do on a day in day out basis during the year to bulk up, which is their biggest problem. He can have Pete Myers seat behind the bench. What is he doing lurking around? It always seems sad to me when I see him back there during time outs. But I digress. My point about the money is, who cares if TT was picked 4th or should he be called a #2 because we traded him for the #2 pick? The draft was a pretty terrible year. Andrea Bargnani went first and the only player that’s all-star caliber is Roy, but he isn’t a franchise changer. Who cares what his draft number was. The questions are, does he deserve minutes and does he deserve a roster spot?
Clearly, he justifies both. He should get minutes based on performance, with a bit of leeway for some mistakes as he learns. As long as he doesn’t demand huge jack, I’m perfectly fine with him being a sold contributer for years to come. And if he does keep working at it each off season and gains confidence as the team wins with Rose, all the better. Sometimes you get a Rose in the draft, sometimes you get a Horace Grant and sometimes you get a Marcus Fizer. I think TT can be closer to Grant than Fizer. Now that, is a BUST!
Horace Grant wouldn't be bad
and maybe that should be our hope rather than these baffling Shawn Kemp expectations.
by messwiththebull on Nov 23, 2008 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes.
A Horace Grant type would be very helpful. If Tyrus can be that, I’ll be happy.
(BTW, the Shawn Kemp expectations come from Hollinger, whose magical formulas have analyzed Tyrus’ early stats and have churned out “Shawn Kemp” as the player Tyrus is most similar to.)
What if Thomas playing 40 mins a night regardless...
…helped him reach a borderline All-Star level in the next two years which led to more winning (like 55+ wins, not just 45+) in the future? What if it was a true “1 step back, 2 steps forward” situation?
I’m not sure that’s the case, but what if it was?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
In a vacuum.
Look, just because you want someone to develop doesn’t mean you should let them continue to play when they are not getting the job done. As I have stated before, I don’t believe he should have a short leash. I think we need to give him a chance to play through some mistakes. I just don’t think he should be given 40 minutes, no matter what. That is just giving up on the season. Not because I think TT would be bad 40 minutes a night. Just because that’s not coaching. There is a balance. Again, the other side is always playing “match ups” and switching out the starting line up every game and pulling guys after 2-3 minutes of play. We need some consistency with some managing of match ups and hot hands. Balance please!
Who should we play instead of TT?
Nocioni isn’t a starter, and Gooden at the PF means somebody has to take the C. Cedric Simmons and Michael Ruffin are non-answers. Noah’s good for maybe 15 minutes a game right now at this point, and plays like a wounded antelope about to get eaten [yeah, that’s a bad metaphor …]. Hughes playing the 4 is a crime to the game of basketball [almost as bad as having LH play in the first place].
He should be getting 20-25 minutes a game, IMHO – the blocks and dunks help out, and when he’s on he can really swing games. He’s a decent passer too.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
I think he should play more than he is.
I’m not saying don’t play TT. I like him and agree that a few REALLY bad plays get stuck in peoples minds (including the coaches) and he ends up rotting on the bench the second half. I think this is terrible. I’m just anti TT 40 minutes a game. I want to see Noah play more at the center. You’re right, Gooden is no center, so we have to play who we have. Against GS or someone small, I’m ok with Gooden at C some, but otherwise, we need to play Noah and Gray. TT needs to get more minutes (especially in the second half of games) but should be playing behind Gooden right now at PF.
by Unrealcity on Nov 24, 2008 4:57 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Who's saying TT should play 40 minutes a game?
A consistent 20 would be fine. But a consistent 20. Not this retarded ‘I ran you out for 40 minutes a game for a bit, and now you get to play 5 minutes! Yay consistency!’ thing VDN has going on.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
So does tyger1147.
I’m with you Prevenge. Consistency. 20-30 minutes. Fluctuate in there as needed, but he should always get 20 minutes. That’s what I meant by he shouldn’t have to short of a leash.
Tyrus' minutes so far this season
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pgl.cgi?player=thomaty01&year=2009
Game 1 – 41
Game 2 – 33
Game 3 – 31
Game 4 – 28
Game 5 – 26
Game 6 – 26
Game 7 – 23
Game 8 – 22
Game 9 – 21
Game 10 – 17
Game 11 – 16
Game 12 – 14
Game 13 – 6
Game 14 – 4
There is some form of consistentcy…his minutes are consistently getting shorter :-)
If this keeps true to form, tonight he should get around 2-3 min
by NormVanBeer on Nov 24, 2008 2:45 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Wow, and it's a tough argument...
…to say he’s playing worse now than the first couple games..
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I'm gonna have a good cry now.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 24, 2008 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
heh
I’m sure Pax or JR will have a box of tissue close by…
…seriously, I wonder if the staff even looks at things as simple as this
Since TT is an "energy" player,
he should get a consistent 34-36 minutes a night.
Gooden should not be in the Bulls long-term plans (unless willing to play backup minutes at the MLE salary). Give TT the minutes, and either he develops into a good player, or can be traded to a team with an optimistic GM.
by Granny Waiters on Nov 24, 2008 6:32 PM CST up reply actions
To the character part about Aldridge--Thomas: it's a complete Urban Myth.
Read:
Thomas
Strengths: Agile bigman with great leaping ability … Feathery touch out to 12-15 feet … Has a very nice turn around jump shot …Spectauclar dunker, his explosiveness and quickness getting off the ground is unrivaled among college post players … A super shot blocker due to his long arms and explosiveness … Runs the floor well … Huge wingspan … Has good hands for rebonds and catching passes … Plays with good energy, loves to dunk … Extremely long arms plus great lift make him a monster on the boards and allow him to play much bigger than 6-9 … Plays with great intensity, has an edge to him … Excellent passer, great vision … Great upside …
Weaknesses: Unproven, must prove himself on the college level … Must put on a good deal of weight as he can be pushed around due to lack of bulk . He needs at least 20-25 pounds of muscle … How well he weight trains and maintains his agility will be huge … He’s so talented he can get away with not hustling or working hard, so staying intense and focused is important … Needs to become better conditioned, gets winded easily … Has a bit of a hitch on his free throw shot … He’s a risky pick because it’s uncertain how his body will turn out. Will he be able to add the weight?
Nowhere is there a character issue. The only thing even close is that he plays with “energy” and “intensity”.
Aldridge
Strengths: Considered the top bigman prospect in the country … Extremely smooth post player … Has excellent touch within 12 feet of the basket … Soft hands … Excels on the offensive end with great fundamentals and footwork … Put on 25 pounds of muscle between his freshman and sophomore seasons and it’s made him a much more aggressive and confident post player … Runs the floor especially well for a (near) 7 footer … Good transition player … Good shot blocker, with his long arms he should get a fair number of blocks on the next level … Long arms and a quick leaper … Very versatile big man … Has many effective moves in the low post including a go-to jump hook. Has even developed a sky hook in his sophomore year … Great at positioning himself in the post … Has nice form on his jumper, range is developing … Positions himself well for rebounds and excels on the offensive glass …
Weaknesses: In high school he developed a reputation for being soft and not showing enough heart. Scouts still have some question marks about his toughness inside. He is vastly improved in that area, but still struggles against big and strong players on the NCAA level … Not a physically imposing player inside, plays more a finesse game. Needs to get nastier … Should still add an additional 10-15 pounds … Not an out of this world leaper, but solid … Not an extremely emotional player, which is both a positive and a negative … Passing and ball handling are decent but can improve … Also has been injury prone (missed half of his freshman year after a hip injury that required surgery) … Must develop a killer instinct, more intensity … Free throw shooting is just average …
Again, nothing really about character. The only things that are close are “soft”, not nasty enough, lacks energy and intensity, not emotional…
Now, if you could find me a quote or scouting report that backs up your claim—that Thomas had character issues and Aldridge was squeaky clean (or close)—then I’d be happy to reconsider this. As it is, I think you’re just stating something you’ve learned since the draft but think you learned before.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
That's not my point.
My point was that Tyrus was unproven, raw and had lots of potential. I should have elaborated on that. Yes, much of TT’s character issues have been seen since he was drafted, but being surly and entitled usually doesn’t just appear. I’m assuming, but that is something that should have come up when interviewing him, but and, this isn’t my point.
I am not saying we shouldn’t have picked TT because of his character issues. I liked Tyrus then over LaMarcus and I still like TT. I think they will both be “good” players, not great, so overall, it’s negligible the difference between the two. But I enjoy the crazy awesome things that Tyrus can bring to the game. It’s exciting.
I dunno...
…no link or nuthin’, but I definitely remember that Tyrus had work ethic and attitude concerns going into the draft. That he doesn’t always “try” or play hard, and relied on his athleticism over a work ethic.
It bothered me enough that I was confused when the Blazers seemed to have drafted him, as that wasn’t the type of player we were needing back then (didn’t need another Miles/Outlaw type, who needed extreme guidance to find their way).
I don’t think anyone was saying Tyrus was a bad kid at all, just questioned his drive and attitude… those were actual “character” concerns I recall off the top of my head.
Again, no links, but I am fairly confident I ain’t mis-remembering it or taking what we know now and letting it color my memory.
To me, if ya liked Tyrus before the season, he’s still that kid and could still be really good. He just might be a few more seasons. On one hand, you got time since Rose is so young, but on the other hands Tyrus does still have some value and isn’t a sure thing by a long shot.
I dunno man, I dunno… I hoped Rose could awaken a Amare-esque dunk monster within Tyrus, but it hasn’t seemed to come to fruition.
Any reports on how he’s handled the lesser minutes? He seemed to play quite a bit earlier in the season… did he do something and not not do something that the coaches are demanding?
I still think he could be good, but if one is just hoping for a role player… yeah, that’s a bad pick. You gotta hope for more from a guy as athletically talented as Tyrus. He just needs to be refined more, and who knows if the Bulls can do that well (I dunno if it is the coaching, or just Tyrus).
Mortimer
I don't remember any of that character stuff. At all.
I mean, to each his own, and I guess you can use whatever words necessary to make you feel you remember it even more, but I’d like to see a blog-post. A draft post. A scout post.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Haha
I knew a bitchy snippy reply was comin’.
All I’m saying is, I remember the concerns pretty well because they were big concerns for the Blazers. There might be a link to it somewhere, but it isn’t that big of a deal.
I give you my solemn word as a gentleman that I remember such talk.
There was also the talk that Paxson was taking a risk with the pick by taking a guy who DID have the work ethic “character” concerns because he was so athletic, because that pick can pay off if the guy wakes up as a pro.
If it makes you feel better, Rudy Gay had the exact same work ethic and effort “character” concerns, and that’s why he fell in the draft. He was clearly more talented than Tyrus and pretty much the same height, but those concerns were so big that he fell that far in a relatively weak draft year.
I ain’t arguing Tyrus vs Roy/LMA or anything like that, as that is boring and nonconstructive. He’s a Bull and they are Blazers and no debate changes that. Tyrus could still be good, but the mystery as to why he has done nothing with his talent is what needs to be solved.
Is David Thorpe just talkin’ up his clients, like some say? Did Tyrus really perform well for him, and just can’t do it for the Bulls coaches? Is it Tyrus himself? That’s what I’m asking, not confirmation of work ethic and attitude concerns before the draft (concerns that obviously still haunt him now, making the “when” of those concerns moot).
I do not think he is Stromile Swift. But what can be done to unlock what he can be? If it is Tyrus himself, it just might take a few seasons to wake up and no matter how many minutes he gets it won’t matter. If it is the coaching, maybe Vinny can reach him… but why is Tyrus so hard to get something out of?
I agree he should get consistent minutes, unless he is doing something that directly contradicts what the coaches ask him to do.
He still plays like a rookie out there, not a guy entering his 3rd season. That’s what bugs me the most. Missing shots and making normal ‘mistakes’ are fine, everyone does that. But he still seems just as raw as the day he arrived in the NBA.
Obviously I don’t know enough about the kid to guess what the problem is, so I am asking those who should be more knowledgable than I about what their educated guesses are. Front office meddling (wanting to play who they pay), bad coaching, immature player? That’s what I’m wondering.
Mortimer
haha
I knew some verbose comment that says nothing was coming.
And I really don’t care what you remember. A lot of people remember things that aren’t didn’t happen. I’m sure you, like me and nearly every other human being out there, believes 100% something they remember… but actually didn’t. I just want some sort of evidence, any really, that he had character issues. For instance, it took me, literally, less than 2 minutes, to find this on Gay:
Weaknesses: Though he’s just 19 years of age, his sophomore year was supposed to be his to take over college basketball. When that didn’t happen, people began to question his desire and intensity and whether he has it in him to become great … He floats in and out of games, and tended to defer to teammates in clutch situations … Is it a lack of fire, or just a lack of maturity and confidence? Time will tell … Unselfish to a fault, like Vince Carter, he almost takes being the perfect teammate too far. He’s a star and should act like one … He still struggles to create offense for himself off the dribble, getting the majority of his baskets off of rebounds, or passes from tammates …
I’d figure you would have had some sort of evidence if you were to jump in on a discussion asking for such things. But then, you do have a tendency of stroking keys (or ego) without really providing anything of use, eh?
(and all the other stuff about David Thorpe and Rudy Gay and Stromile Swift? Perfect red herrings, if you ask me.)
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Huh?
You seem so miserable, I don’t get it.
This is supposed to be fun. If it turns into research, it ain’t fun. I remembered what I remembered and it is largely accurate. If I gotta spend time on Google looking for something that isn’t even all that important, it ain’t fun.
You don’t seem to have too much fun doing this talking-about-basketeering stuff.
What’s a red herring about Thorpe stuff? He talked up Tyrus big time— was it just because he was a client? Or did he get something out of Tyrus that others can’t? Is a good player in there that Thorpe has seen, or is he lying because he is a client? Can Vinny or anyone else duplicate the hard working great player that is supposedly locked within Tyrus’s athletic shell?
You did great research on Gay. It confirmed my memory. My memory is good. Thank you.
Oh, and Stromile Swift… again, how a red herring? They are remarkably similar. I do not think Tyrus is that sort of a player, but that’s more based on gut instincts and not what anyone has seen from the kid in actual games. Athletic as hell, no skills, not sure what to do on a court. High potential, high possibility it is never realized. Stromile Swift.
Again, I don’t think Tyrus is Stro… but on a similar career path right now.
I’m not always sure you know what words you are saying when you say them, and just jump directly to snippy mode.
Mortimer
PS: Oh, to clarify, since you always think my posts are too long and unwieldy (which hurts my heart), here is my question: what do those “in the know” think is the root of Tyrus’ problems? Is it Tyrus and his mental state? The coaches? Is he just simply not that good?
WHAT TYRUS WAS SEEN AS BEFORE THE DRAFT DOESN’T MATTER. Not one bit. I can bold that if you like (yay, I just did).
Oh, and
I didn’t know/think we were arguing about anything before your reply.
I am confused as to what your POV is in the reply. That Pax couldn’t have known, because there were no reports questioning Tyrus before the draft? What does it matter if some people remember that sort of ‘effort and focus’ talk and some don’t?
Obviously, I am saying he could still be good, but just isn’t right now. Don’t think there is a disagreement there.
Morty
Oh, and Part II Electric Boogaloo
I don’t think Tyrus has real character issues or that is why he isn’t doing well.
I think he just doesn’t seem sure what to do or where to be, and doesn’t always utilize his Amare-esque athleticism.
Those are fixable problems, over time.
He might just need to get his head right and realize that his body allows him to create a lot of havoc out there, because he seems to forget that a lot.
Since it’s mostly just skills and BBIQ being his weakness, he just needs time and development. It’s been slower than I’d like, but as long as he doesn’t get hurt and lose his athleticism before he learns the skills he’ll probably be good in the long run.
(Provided he doesn’t suddenly become lazy and complacent, ala Stro Swift).
Morty, you Friend.
Just follow this thread.
Read my comment you replied to. I had obviously heard many people state they remembered (or simply state them as fact) that Thomas had character problems before the draft and Aldridge was an angel. I found quotes, or “scouting reports” (if even from a website) that paralleled how I remember things going down.
I simply asked (or suggested) that if someone had something more substantial, or equally so, to contradict this, that they please provide it. I would gladly re-think my long-held previously conceived ideas on this subject.
Here you come admitting you don’t have anything more to add except your own opinion. I’m sorry to burst your bubble (although I’m sure your own shield of all-knowingness will prevent your bubble from actually bursting), but I don’t value your opinion over anyone else of the masses. Just because you’re revered at Blazer’s Edge, doesn’t make it so here.
So my problem? I asked for an expert’s opinion on this. You offered your own, as if you were an expert. I disagree that are.—- And hell, if you had even linked to one of your own pre-draft comments regarding his character (or a comment during the draft), I would have at least considered that something.—- Basically, people with inflated egos annoy me. And I usually, as I’ve done here, express my displeasure with such.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
You picked the right place
Fan run blogs are the best place for expert commentary (I know, I know, you just wanted a link).
Maybe our definition of “character” is different. He doesn’t have classical character issues (not that I know of), but the get-the-most-out-of-your-talent kind. Again, if anyone thinks he has normal character problems they are probably seeing things that aren’t there, as far as I’ve seen.
Perhaps the ‘character’ angle was hyped pre and post draft because LMA is SUCH a nice guy… to his detriment at times, but he is a pretty nice guy. Maybe it’s just the comparison, and the reading of Tyrus body language doesn’t help (incredibly subjective of course, but to most people his scowl and body language read "attitudey").
That’s all not the point though, not at all— it’s not like we’re talking about a kid who gets in trouble and stuff.
That’s why I wonder (disregard any character talk, which is lame) what Tyrus’ deal is. I’m wondering what he needs to be the player he can be. I dunno if it is just regular minutes or the full faith of his coach, but it’s hard to argue for that aside from where he was drafted since his play hasn’t warranted either.
I also wish a Chicago beat writer who follows the team would see why it sometimes seems like the head coach doesn’t always “like” Tyrus, and why they favor DOA vets like Hughes and Gooden. Skiles was a bitch who always threw players under the bus, but a player had to do SOMETHING to rile him up. Does Tyrus just naturally not gel with most coaches (not that Skiles bitchiness is the norm for NBA coaches)?
I don’t read every article about the Bulls from your million Chicago newspapers, but the ones I’ve read mostly just complain about what the Bulls do and don’t get answers from the coaches (past and present) about WHY.
As a side note, I don’t think I’ve come around here trying to throw my interweb weight around (it is a funny concept though). I don’t think I have any; trying to act big because you’re a regular on a sports blog (and don’t even run the sports blog or anything like that) isn’t exactly the big time. I really don’t think I come off that way, here or at Blazers Edge or anywhere. I’m just Mortimer. That means nothing ANYWHERE.
Like always, you’re a hard man to please, and for good reason I am sure.
I just think you forgot how to change your avatar picture, and for that reason alone you get angry at the idea that there was a reason not to draft Tyrus, no matter how unfounded.
Overall it seems like the Bulls biggest problem is a vague gameplan. Try to win now and make the playoffs, so ya play the vets? Giving Vinny such a short, cheap contract suggests they’ll make him an eventual fall guy. In their mind, are they playing the best players or just who they think they SHOULD play?
Tyrus seems like the embodiment of the front office’s problems.
I don’t know whose fault it is, but it probably effects a young guy like Tyrus, who needs guidance to figure out what sort of player he is. I err on the side of ‘know for sure and don’t trade him’ when you got a potential talent like Tyrus, and the turmoil of the roster and front office might be what is holding Tyrus back.
As a Tyrus fan, what do you think is the main things holding Tyrus back? Is it as simple as consistent minutes? Confidence? Mixed messages from his 3 coaches he’s had in the NBA? Not knowing what he is?
I know I ramble, but those questions are what I am after.
Mortimer
ok
Just curious, though. Why bring them up here, when I clearly had no (current) interest in the matter? We clearly (or at least obviously) discuss Thomas ad nauseum in about 1,839 different ways and 341 different places. When I have a specific question on a specific matter, in which you, very admittedly, have no interest in answering, why join in the conversation?
Because you suck. That’s why.
(And yes, fan blogs are, perhaps, the best place to get multiple and varied links to expert commentary and analysis. So good on you for recognizing that even if you were being a sarcastic ass.)
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I guess I was going "off topic", asking about Tyrus
And I had identified you as a Tyrus fan. So, I tried to get more info as to what a fan of Tyrus thinks is the ultimate deal with the kid.
You seem like one of the most miserable people I have encountered, even in the sports fandom world. I’ve probably only read a small percentage of your posts, but you whine like a baby about every little thing. You can’t handle anyone even responding to you (not arguing with you, *responding*) without throwing a prissy little hissy fit.
Get over yourself. You come across extremely pathetic, especially when no one is attacking you and you come back puffing your internet feathers up. I asked basic questions, that’s all.
It really is inexcusable to ask a question(s) about Tyrus, to a Tyrus fan, in a Tyrus themed thread.
Jesus, now you’ve bummed me out for a few minutes. I’m just havin’ fun here, talking basketball. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen you not pissed about something. WHY DOES HAPPINESS EVADE YOU AND PROHIBIT YOUR SPIRIT FROM SOARING?
I apologize for what I am saying, though. I shouldn’t be mean, nor should I be personal… but you seem to make everything personal, even when it certainly isn’t necessary.
I also apologize for going off topic with this post, but I do not think I was off topic before… as it was about… Ty…rus…
Mortimer
PS: This seems to happen whenever we encounter each other, and I know it ain’t me starting it. Feel free to blast me if I am offbase, but why do it when I’m talkin’ Bulls?
Makes no sense… just makes no sense.
I’ll always wonder… what coulda’ been… (sigh sadly).
You know I'm not reading that.
and yet you still type…
;-P
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
You know you read it
And you loved it.
—M—
by Mortimer on Nov 25, 2008 5:36 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I remember a snippy response to a Draft Express interview
And some in depth articles suggesting some serious trust issues on Tyrus’ part. And some hard core insistence on his part that he’s a SF.
That’s character stuff, although not in the traditional sense perhaps.
De gustibus non est disputandum
Okay. Thanks.
I found something, too, on DraftExpress. Wasn’t about his character like a Zach Randolph or about his work ethic like DeAndre Jordan… although I might be remembering that wrong.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Re-reading that interview and remembering Beasley's "Carmelo Anthony"...
…self-comparisons makes me wonder if Paxson ever seriously considered Beasley. And if he did, while Beasley is a much more tremendous talent than Thomas, Paxson is more of an idiot than I ever thought.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
What Kwintz just said at the end there is right on.
Had we taken Aldridge over Tyrus we would not have Rose right now, so the argument becomes Rose vs. Aldridge, and there is no argument there. Every draft pick and non trade that was made/not made eventually led up to us getting D Rose, so therefore it was all worth it and all of this talk about who we should have drafted and shouldn’t have drafted is moot.
As for Tyrus, i’m not sure when everyone wants to give up on this guy, but he is just not progressing. Rose is a young kid he’s been in the NBA for 20 minutes, you take one look at him and you can see he’s a player. When Aldridge first came in the league, same deal. And so on and so on. This is Tyrus’ third year now and nobody can figure this guy out. I think it’s very safe to say at this point that he will never be a superstar, so now the question becomes: can he be a contributor on a good team? I don’t know the answer to that, but I hope the answer is realized sooner rather than later.
the question then is...
if he is only just a “contributer” what does that mean for the bulls team. In the words of hollinger if the bulls never develop a pf or trade for one then they will regret drafting rose no matter how good rose is.
I don't understand that logic.
So Hollinger was saying that there was a better player available in the draft? A better frontcourt player available in the draft? I guess he means Beasley then, and if that’s the case, I don’t see it. Beasley is not gonna be a dominant defensive player in the frontcourt and that’s the type of guy you need to win a championship. Right now Beasley isn’t even playing near the basket, there’s doubts about whether he’ll even be able to play the 4. Plus, if Tyrus doesn’t improve why would they not try and upgrade at that position?
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 22, 2008 8:41 PM CST up reply actions
I read everything that Hollinger writes, because I think he has very solid analysis.
But sometimes he is wrong and what I really like about him is that he always admits it. I think he will be writing a retraction to the article you keep referencing. Hollinger was projecting college stats and Beasley was projecting as the best prospect ever. Serious. Kevin Durant was the best and then Beasley out projected him. Rose projected out to be a good player. Obviously, he was wrong. I would say on both accounts, as it not only is apparent that Rose is a future All-NBA / MVP guy, but that Beasley looks to be an All-Star caliber at best. I’ll give the Beas some time though. But Rose is special and the projections couldn’t see that. So all the other things in that particular article are null and void.
by Unrealcity on Nov 23, 2008 1:35 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
while i do aggree
with you that hollinger would back off his statements now. I do agree with the thrust of his statement. That is, if the bulls dont find an answer for a productive big man it doesn’t matter how good rose will be they aren’t gonna win without that. They need someone who can at least finish… you know kinda like how tyson chandler isn’t that good but is good next to some point guard they have over there.
Playing with 3/5 of a team
is bad no matter which way you slice it.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
He's saying we need a front court.
And I think that both Noah and TT have a chance to be “productive” big men. Not great, but good.
A guard centric offensive team can win a championship,
if the interior defense and rebounding is good enough. Rodman, Mahorn, Salley and Edwards were offensively limited, but they made the Pistons a great defensive team, even with the “midgets” Thomas, Dumars and Johnson playing guard.
by Granny Waiters on Nov 24, 2008 6:46 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly.
Any horrible decisions from MJ retiring to DR being drafted can be forgiven.
Things could be worse.
by stupidgenius on Nov 22, 2008 8:29 PM CST up reply actions
Just not of Paxson.
Just because his stupid incompetence led to getting Derrick Rose, doesn’t mean he gets to rebuild the team that goes around Derrick Rose.
He built a team that never won 50 games and fell flat on its face last year. Sure, w/ Rose he could probably build a winning team, but could he build a “true” championship-contender? I doubt it.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Pax shouldn't get to rebuild the team.
He made way too many bad decisions to get a 297th chance. I mean, for anything bad that happened to us over the last 10 years, we shouldn’t cry about it.
Things could be worse.
by stupidgenius on Nov 23, 2008 1:16 PM CST up reply actions
THIS IS EXACTLY
what i meant. if tyrus thomas is a bust then this team in its present constitution needs to explode. this is the derrick rose era and everyone in the organization is expendable but him (if tyrus thomas isn’t an all-star caliber player). That goes for all you “he can still be a solid contributer” people out there too.
This makes no sense.
Why does he have to be an All-Star or nothing? Not everyone on your team (8-9 rotation guys, 12 active roster) are going to be All-Stars. We haven’t had one for 10 years, so one right now would be nice. If he demands All-Star jack and he isn’t an All-Star, OK, let him go, but otherwise, he is our second best big right now.
I again ask anyone to respond to my question. If you think TT is a bust, who do you trade him for? What team wants him and will give us something better?
my point is
that if TT is a bust (or even just a solid contributer) then we should blow up team and management and moved forward with derrick rose, some losing seasons and high draft picks.
It struck me that this team is not going to be championship caliber precisely because TT isn’t all-star caliber and, as you say,
there is is no way we can move him and get something better.
bloW it UP! BloW it UP!
This doesn't make sense.
What are you saying? Try to lose? And who are you going to get in the draft? There is just as high a chance that TT or Noah becomes an All-Star as us losing and lucking into an All-Star big man in the draft. The draft is called the lottery for a reason. Sure, they scout and do all they can, but the majority of the time, they are busts. So do you want to lose just to get more young question marks that have a probability of sucking? There is such a thing as rebuilding without trading everyone you have. You can be like the Timberwolves, trading aging superstars for a ton of young crap/prospects and hope someone develops or you can move a piece or two at a time while you develop what you have around your young star. Plus I don’t understand why in one comment you say you want TT to play 40 minutes and then another comment you say GET RID OF THEM ALL. BLOW IT UP! It just isn’t a plan. If you can’t come up with someone we can get who is better than TT, we should play TT! Tell me a plan that is better and I will listen.
The lottery is before the draft (it's linked, but not the same)
The Game chose him !
Best season was a 15/11,
and only one All Star appearance, but the Bulls would not have won their first three championships without a player like him .
by Granny Waiters on Nov 24, 2008 6:53 PM CST up reply actions
Except for Deng.
He’s got a good contract. He might have to go, too, but he should be the last, because he’s the best.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I would be more of a Tyrus apologist
if he did some of the things that other players with his limitations do. Udonis Haslem was brought up above and although I haven’t seen all that much of him, I recall him being an all out guy, someone that sprints the floor, plays solid man-to-man defense, rotates well and boxes his men out. It’s very rare when you see Tyrus ahead of the pack on a fast break. More often than not he is trailing the pack and half-assing it down the floor, which is what seems to have pissed Scott Skiles off the most. Tyrus still takes some dumb shots and tries to play more like a guard. Tyrus is a freak athlete who, as long as his skills aren’t developed, needs to max out in terms of his ability. To warrant being on the floor he needs to play solid and fundamental man-to-man defense, rotate and move around properly on both ends of the floor and box out his men. Until he starts doing those things and/or develops an outside shot and low post game he should be relegated to nothing more than bench status(on a good team). It would also help if he familiarized himself with Derrick Rose and learned how to play with him.
The Lakers cannot afford to take on any more salaries
after this year, they already have huge luxury tax issues. That is why they are most likely keeping Odom for a year and letting him walk
ESPN and the LA times have recent excellent articles on the Lakers salary problems. They will be in the $95 million range without Odom and the $115 million range with a resigned Odom or by trading Odom for players with longer contracts, Hinrich Nocioni.
Every dollar that they add or pick up is automatically doubled because they are in the luxury tax. Both sources claim that Jerry Buss will never exceed $100 million no matter how many championships he might win. Money is the biggest reason that Shaq was shipped out.
this post has nothing to do with the lakers and lamar odom...
the whole point is about that truehoop commenter said about tyrus thomas. Also, i mis-wrote and implied i sent that email into henry abbott. In fact, i just read it and remembered it from a long time ago.
trading with the lakers is not in the least of my concerns.
What are we waiting for?
It’s like a shy stripper…
It’s like someone opening a daycare and don’t like kids..
“If he aint got it by now”… “some people never learn”…
thanks mandoman10 for highlighting and outlining the Tyrus Thomas – John Paxson 2006 – 2008 saga…
man up!
He's 22.
Sometimes it takes more time than in other cases. It’s not like we are getting great offers for him. If we were, that would be a different story.
you answered your own prognostication..
this really is no longer an issue with age, are many of us the last to know?
man up!
We're waiting for him to become consistent,
something which he’s only done with his mental approach [or at least tried to do from reports] this year. If he’s not doing anything by the end of the year after getting minutes in the middle of the season …
then yes, we can throw him at someone, or just not sign the option. But there’s still that hope.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Tyrus Thomas for LMA
wouldn’t have looked so bad is Scott Skiles gave him minutes in his first 2 years, it probably affected his confidence, it was like, “I am a top 4 pick, why do Joe Smith/PJ Brown start games and I come off the bench thing”. LMA got to portland and got to play right away that’s why he’s contributing and being effective. Tyrus needs to focus, he can play the post, if MJ and KG can play the post he can too, its not about the body frame, it’s about having the guts and will to score in a smart way.
when are we going to add a 7th championship?
by broseleay301 on Nov 22, 2008 8:05 PM CST reply actions
yeah i know
there must be a way out there, lets rob einsteins brain and install it to TT. hehe
when are we going to add a 7th championship?
by broseleay301 on Nov 22, 2008 8:14 PM CST up reply actions
That's a dumb argument.
He didn’t play cause he’s never been good enough to play! At one point is he gonna force the coach to play him by playing well? Just cause he’s the fourth damn pick we have to keep putting up with his stupidity and other bullshit? If Tyrus wants to play he needs to GET BETTER! If not than VDN should sit his ass down too. And you say Skiles not playing him “affected his confidence”. That’s just stupid as hell. So I guess he’ll never be good at basketball cause he didn’t get enough minutes in his rookie year?
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 22, 2008 8:48 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed, 100%.
Good players play, bad players sit. Thomas didn’t, and doesn’t, get many minutes because he isn’t a good player. Theres no need to read into the situation any deeper than that.
Not necessarily.
Don Nelson doesn’t play rookies usually. Phil often doesn’t play rookies. Sloan hates to as well. Old school guys like their vets and Skiles is an old school guy. I’m not saying he hurt TT’s confidence by not playing him, but I think he could have played more. But I agree that your pick # should not have anything to do with whether you play or not. It should be your performance in practice and on the court.
My point is not whether you should or shouldn't play rookies.
I could care less if a coach waits five years to let them play. My point was, that in order to KEEP PLAYING they need to earn it. I’m all for letting someone work their way out of issues, but it’s getting to that point with Tyrus that he needs to prove it on the floor.
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 23, 2008 2:24 AM CST up reply actions
Building a championship team...
Way back in 1984 the Bulls drafted Michael Jordan and as he entered the league in his rookie year, magical things started to happened. 7 years later we were world champions for the first time.
Guess how many players from the ’84 roster were on the ’91 championship team?
My point is that the only thing that matters now is Derick Rose. The past is history, and everything from here on out will define us now that we have our superstar to build around.
by smash! on Nov 22, 2008 9:49 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Yes, this is Rose's team.
And we need to do whatever we have to to build around him. But just because Jordan’s team was full of crap before he showed up doesn’t mean that this Bulls team is totally worthless. I think there are definite pieces that can fit with Rose and frankly, 13 games is way to short a time to say that everyone besides Rose is a bum. When people say that after 13 games, it only shows their ignorance to the game and to building a team. We have a brand new coach, new system, some new players (Rose, Gooden, Hughes, Simmons) and a new philosophy. It takes time for these things to gel.
Please show me where I "ignorantly" said the rest of today's team is "totally worthless"?
And then re-read my post, but this time try to concentrate on understanding what the words mean. It’s actually in response to the myriad of previous posts debating what would or would not have happened if we did or did not draft Noah, Thomas, etc.
Like I said above pretty clearly, the past doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters now is how the team revolves around Rose. If current pieces work with him, keep em. If players develop with him and create a chemistry, brilliant. If not? Move them. The blueprint is fresh and right now the only thing permanent is the foundation- which is clearly Derick Rose.
__
And I’d love to hear what the “new system’s new philosophy” is? I hope it has something to do with the new coach not having any “predeceived notions”…
You are being to sensitive, sorry.
I wasn’t talking about you being ignorant, or I would have said “you are ignorant”. I said
“When people say that after 13 games, it only shows THEIR ignorance.”
I was referring to lots of posts I have seen where people don’t seem to have any patience at all. No need to get testy and condescending. I understand what your words mean.
But I disagree. The past does matter. You have to learn from your mistakes and evaluate what went wrong. But, I agree that debating a bunch of past hypothetical situations is pretty useless.
ya but this is my point...
if TT is a bust then the rest of the team is worthless and it should all be blown up. Move on with derrick rose with all new decision makers. smash! hit it on the head. nothing else matters but derrick rose. My point is that if TT can’t be an all-star player then that means that the past should actually be blown up and then dropped in the toilet and flushed and then that whole block should be blown up to to make sure that the evil-ness doesn’t come out of the pipes and effect some future draft picks or somethign.
I was probably being too sensitive,
so I’m sorry about that, but it did seem like you were directing your comments at me since you repied to my post. Sensitivity is contagious around here.
But we’ll have to agree to disagree. And I’m still waiting to hear what Vinny’s philosophy is? ;)
I think VDN isn't quite sure what his philosophy is yet.
It’s been 14 games, unless you count summer league and pre-season. Heck with someone this green, maybe we should! I think he is like Steve Kerr in mindset, if he were a coach. They were players when defense mattered. They saw the Bulls dynasty on the court. But they both also have seen the effectiveness and excitement of the Phoenix Suns (under D’Antoni) and so they are trying to do this hybrid thing of "let’s play Suns offense and Spurs/Detroit Defense. Is it working? I don’t think so. Look at the Suns now and look at the Bulls. I think VDN needs to figure out something for himself and go with it. Right now it seems like he is just trying everybody else’s style out each game and seeing how it works.
But I think patience is a virtue that we should employ at this point. Everybody emulates when they start something new. Writers, actors, musicians, teachers, coaches, GMs, Owners, even presidents. I say give him some time to find his way.
thats why
we should not have hired a rookie coach. Ive been calling for vdn to be fired since pre-season. I can’t wait until all “lets wait and see how he does” people start their own fire vinny chants. its inevitable and you know it.
we should have offered d’antoni keys to city and a bizzilion dollars.
What good is it to cry over spilled milk.
I’d rather have VDN than Collins. I’m glad we didn’t get O’brien or Larry Brown or Carlise. D’Antoni wanted Lebron in his 7 seconds or less and Walsh sold him on the fact that he could get him in 2010. It wasn’t managements inactivity or lack of love. Just like Lebron doesn’t want to come to Chicago, so D’Antoni didn’t want to either. But you could tell that Mike was pissed when we got the #1 pick and the perfect PG for his system. If he had waited a couple of weeks, we may have gotten him. And then who knows, we may have had a shot at Lebron, but there is no point in arguing could have beens.
As to VDN, it’s fans like you that make coaching to stressful. Can you imagine hundreds of people watching you at your work place everyday and second guessing your work, before you even did it. And wanting you fired after you had only been at your new job for two months? I’m not going to argue with you, he deserves more time. Period.
well, he's well compensated
er…maybe not by NBA coach standards, but still :)
I’m also think saying he should be fired is absolutely silly. I’m just watching and not liking.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 24, 2008 3:38 PM CST up reply actions
Olden Polynice was a highly valuable player on those Bulls teams,
since he was though of highly enough by Seattle to be traded for Scottie Pippen.
by Granny Waiters on Nov 24, 2008 7:08 PM CST up reply actions
TT wouldnt be a bust
If he realized he is a role player, and could be VERY good at his role if he focus on that. He should focus on rebounding, hustling, blocking shots etc. He could be quite good if he found his role and worked at perfecting that. Unfortunately I’m not as confident that he wants to be just a role player – even if its a very important one.
by rquinsee on Nov 23, 2008 1:48 AM CST reply actions
Just adding to that
I’d be very happy with our TT draft choice even if he had under 10 points a game, but got his 10-12 boards and a few blocks and steals per game, while making good decisions, not shooting too much, tried hard and kept trying to improve his game. Def not all-star numbers but for sure a starting power forward who is high value to the team.
by rquinsee on Nov 23, 2008 1:55 AM CST up reply actions
It's not so much a "be a role player" thing as a "be happy with who you are" thing
If Tyrus played to his capacity and was playing good D, blocking shots, stealing the ball, rebounding, and making the occasional nifty pass, he’d be much better than a role player.
Unfortunately he seems to be one of those guys who believes he has to a big time scorer to be a star. You don’t have to be though, if you’re good at a bunch of other things.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Nov 23, 2008 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
you guys are just "solid contributer" people...
rquinsee, sports 2 you have simply lowered expectations for him in order to justify his existence and to keep yourselves from committing suicide. thats fine. Just know it means that this version of the bulls is defunct and needs to be blown up every last part of it included the building and all the janitors. Except for derrick rose.
I don't think I've lowered expectations
Heck, I’ve been pretty down on Tyrus since toward the end of his rookie year. And I never thought he was going to be a big scorer.
I’m just saying that if he simply played to his strengths he’d be pretty good.
De gustibus non est disputandum
this new expectation Tyrus with the fragile Deng as the starting forwards
is exactly what will keep D.Rose happy and desiring to stay in Chicago?
man up!
Tyrus logged only 17.4 minutes against Golden State of which only 9 were with D Rose on the court.
I know (+/-) stats can be deceiving, but they show:
Thomas 17.4 +8
Hunter 16.9 +9
Noce 23.3 +8
Hughes 40.3 +2
Gordon 41.0 0
Gooden 37.3 0
Rose 36.1 +1
Thabo 27.6 -3
With Tyrus seeming to be parked on the perimeter by design, mostly on the weak side, he is seldom in a good position to score or grab offensive rebounds which has always been one of his strengths.
I assume VDN wants the spacing to keep the lanes open and Tyrus doesn’t seem to know how to effectively cut or when he does, is ignored, probably because he has so much trouble converting inside.
However, these numbers show that his presence on the floor was a net postive, especially on defense. Everyone points out his mistakes, because they seem to be so glaring, often due to a lack of concentration or poor decision making, but he also can be effective providing help defense and keeps some opponents from finishing due to his pogo stick jumping and shot blocking ability, although he can get outmuscled by bigger centers and power forwards when they post him up.
Larry Hughes had his best game as a Bull, but was only a +2. Rose took over in the 4th quarter but struggled defensively much of the time, resulting in a +1. Thabo looked very good in his stints but was a -3. Is it possible the coaches are so frustrated with his mental errors, their perceptions of his performance get somewhat skewed? It also may be the case with Noah, who seems can do no right in their eyes lately, and in the case of Larry the upchucker, who can do no wrong.
I know he brings most of his problems on himself, but is he being used properly to take advantage of his strengths as some here are asking, and if not, maybe it is time to bring in a big man coach (I was politicking for Dennis Rodman) to teach him and the other bigs the finer points of the game. Davis would also do and I beleive he does live in Chicago. There are 70 games left and Tyrus showed a great desire to improve in the pre-season but it is obvious he has lost a lot of his confidence with his slow start and needs to get jumpstarted soon to get his edge back and salvage the season.
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
but he's 22?
d rose is only 20, theres many others who are under 22 but u can see they are on thier way. some players just dont have it… im willing to give ty one more season if he shows consistancy this year… but i dnt think he will.us
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
Again, Ben Wallace.
Some players take longer. Cauncey Billups for that matter. Derrick Rose is a HUGE exception. Look at Kobe and Garnett. Yes, they came straight out of high school, but they needed time to develop. 22 is still very young and just because Rose is amazing doesn’t mean we should give up on TT. Also again, for what purpose would you give up? Do you see a good trade to be had for him? Is he hurting the team in the few minutes he is getting? I would say no and no, but if you have other thoughts, I’d love to hear them.
The players you mentioned that took a while had to be moved before reaching their potential
Sometimes these young guys that don’t play well right away, need a wake up before they can improve. Gerald Green seems to be another example of this as he’s played pretty well since moving to Dallas.
Kobe and Garnett were spotted very early on as special players.
I think you have the exceptions backwards. The exception is the guy who figures it out late. Most NBA stars show it from the minute they start playing.
but here is the thing...
sure, allot of bigmen take along time to develop… but once they do it is usually after their rookie contract and on another team. That is why lakers traded for kwame brown cause they figured he needed a change of scenery. That is why hornets got tyson chandler. When the big men take longer then their rookie contracts to show some signs of stardom then the team usually doesn’t want to pay them and some other team will give them a chance cause they want to take a risk.
if that happens to TT and he becomes all-star caliber when he is 26 and in new york city with lebron im going to jump off the sears tower.
So what is your answer to the problem?
Blow up the team is not an answer, it’s a cop out. I’m not trying to rile you up, I’m just wanting to know who we should trade him to in your mind if he is a BUST, which I don’t think he is. But I would love to hear what you think we should do roster wise if we are not keeping him. If we just let him go, who is taking his place that is an All-Star caliber PF? Gooden? Some magical draft pick or FA?
this is a good question
and my answer is again to blow it up and move forward with derrick rose. Like literally the best thing at this point, if tyrus thomas isn’t all-star caliber, is to go for worst record in league. Clear cap space and go for high draft picks. I dont like this team fighting for a playoff spot and then not making it with drew gooden in the lineup. That would be a waist in my opinion.
I've already posted about this in my "Rose hates losing" post.
This idea is T-E-R-R-I-B-L-E! It is not a plan. It is hoping you get lucky while disenfranchising your fans (who pay the bills) and your star (D. Rose). How long will we keep Rose if we try to lose. He would either commit ritual sepuku, samurai style, or demand a trade to a real franchise that was trying to win.
"given that it is his position on just about every controversy: we just have to wait and see. "
I thought I did the opposite of this
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 23, 2008 1:47 PM CST reply actions
ya, i confused
you for the dude over at blazers edge. You actually take firm stances on every controversy and its the main reason your stuff is better. Your latest is how you think aron gray is sub-human. that is the funniest thing of all time.
my bad though your off my bad list.
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