A Trade that Dumps Hughes and Lands Kaman

by fundamentallysound on Nov 22, 2008 12:44 PM CST Comment 52 comments

Judging by ESPN's Daily Dime's quote (below) the Clips want an All-Star at the 2 for Kaman. They have interest in Vince Carter:

The Clips have also maintained longstanding interest in New Jersey's Vince Carter, but even if they wound up talking to the Nets, trying to convince them to take back Kaman's long contract would appear to run counter to the Nets' own hopes of being a free-agent player in the summer of 2010. Especially since Kaman's contract contains a 15 percent trade kicker, which, as of Friday, would have resulted in an extra $6.3 million in salary.

So how do we make this work for the Bulls? Well, presuming that the Nets are still trying to go for the 2010 plan (a perhaps dubious presumption with the Knicks seemingly taking the lead in the great race for LeBron this week), here's my plan to land Kaman all while dumping Larry.

Bulls Get:

Chris Kaman and Jason Hart

Nets Get:

Larry Hughes, Thabo Sefolosha, and the Bulls 1st round pick

Clippers Get:

Vince Carter

Why do the Bulls do it? Well, they get rid of Larry Hughes, get a contract that expires this year (Hart) which frees up extra money to re-sign Gordon, and they get Chris Kaman. They also give up their first round pick, but this is a weak draft and the Bulls don't need to get any younger.

Why do the Nets do it? They get Hughes and Sefolosha to plug in the hole that Vince leaves for two years when their contracts expire and gives them about $15 million in expiring contracts in 2010. They also get a first round pick for Vince, which they have to view as a success at this point. They aren't winning much with Vince and it's better to cut their losses and get 2010 expiring contracts and a first round pick.

Why do the Clips do it? Their pieces as they are right now don't fit. They have three capable (using the term loosely with regard to Z-Bo) big men that all are getting paid a lot and will command a lot of minutes. They need a wing player who can score badly if they want to compete this year, which it seems they do. They are an older team at their key positions (PG and C) and so getting the older Vince Carter isn't as big of a problem; they are trying to compete now. Also, Vince is the guy they want according to ESPN and this gets it done. (Side note: Vince was an adjusted plus-minus wonder at +4 last year and has always been consistently positive for his teams, despite the bad rep he gets for not trying hard enough).

So what do you all think? Critiques, criticisms, and proposed adjustments are all welcome, but I think that this is a pretty good deal for all involved (the only one I can think of who wouldn't pull the trigger is the Nets, if they haven't given up on this year or aren't really going for the 2010 guys).

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We need to get the Twolves 1st round pick from LAC

otherwise do it. Hughes and Thabo had good games last night. For whatever that’s worth.

by hlac on Nov 22, 2008 1:52 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

ahahah, you're falling for the Hughes' trickery.

Hughes trickery: when Hughes is an effective and consistent scorer – 1 game out of 7.

I fall for it too, all the time. Even this morning, I fell for the trickery, i said: “wow, great numbers, consistent minutes. maybe Hughes speaks the truth.”

Maybe he could fit on another team, but for the Bulls, its only Hughes’ trickery.
_______________________
great possible trade. Kaman is worth Hughes and a draft pick.

by chicago-homesick-blues on Nov 22, 2008 2:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This is what I'm talking about.

We need to start hyping Hughes on here so other teams think the Hughes trickery is REAL and trade for him.

by Unrealcity on Nov 22, 2008 10:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

can you all read

if he was consistent, how could he score 10,000 pts (coming) this year over 11 years now (in which he average 31 minutes a game when the average NBA player career is 4.7 years.

How come is best year is the second year after the Washington Wizards with Cleveland, poorly and blogged wrong that the contract was earned from Washington and played like crap at Cleveland.
Yes, when moved out to the Point Guard his average went down, but give an statistic that says HUGHES PLAYS ANY WORSE DEFENSE THAN ANY BULL in only his five games.

Cleveland gets pissed for the think two me Lebron and the big contract they gave Hughes (which you would not turn down) they deserved it. Lesson 1, two guys will not get you a ring with career years, you need 3-4. Maybe most of you are too young to know how Jordon utilized Rodman (think his post were great?). Your not winning dick with Rose, who is used to under thirty games for the past five years and who is the other star? Hughes is no a superstar, but he is better than anyone else you got now, so you play his ass off, 38-40 minutes a game and let him find his shot and sink that 15 a game average over 11 years and the best defenders in the league. Why do you think these coaches play him? Because he works his ass off in practice. Noah, and others the oppisite.
You got a great coach ad coaching by committee. There not going to listen to a fan, shit, you wouldn’t know how to draw up a play if your life counted on it Hughes at 15 and 16 mil to the end of 2010, so stop wasting key strokes. Thabo doesn’t have a stat that beats him, can’t hit a three, can’t hit a free throw, can’t steal, but since he makes closer to your pay you want him. GREAT. Show me some numbers that back THABO or any other BULL. What is needed is a center, cause Rose is going to get his ass kicked driving that lane after 50 games, you think Malone was tough, wait until these Europeans give him the blows that you will never see on T.V. You get a old center, teach Gray and Noah (if he can get off his high horse and play) to put in 7 minutes and teach. You play Gorden and Rose to score, you play Hughes, Gooden and Deng (who is your cancer in the locker rroom) and try to win 10 more than last year. End of story. Your not getting past Detroit, Cleveland or Boston, so stop the fantasy trade that gets you in the finals or go back to your Playstation, cause B-Ball is not a sport you should watch to much of, cause you don’t no shit about the game.

by Know on Nov 22, 2008 11:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

is this English?

by fundamentallysound on Nov 23, 2008 12:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I've heard of drunk calling, but drunk posting?

by Unrealcity on Nov 23, 2008 2:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

wow. some great quotes here (yeah I know I actually read it wtf).

“Why do you think these coaches play him [Hughes]? Because he works his ass off in practice.”
-Ha! He skipped that three hour doozy pre-season and played the next game.

“Thabo doesn’t have a stat that beats him [Hughes], can’t hit a three, can’t hit a free throw, can’t steal, but since he makes closer to your pay you want him. GREAT. Show me some numbers that back THABO or any other BULL.”
-Hold on a second, can’t steal?! Oh right, this explains that: “but give an statistic that says HUGHES PLAYS ANY WORSE DEFENSE THAN ANY BULL in only his five games.”

“Noah (if he can get off his high horse and play)”
-High, maybe. Horse…?

“Deng (who is your cancer in the locker rroom)”
-Deng is the leader in the locker room, by all reports, and a captain to boot.

Asked what kind of player he expects to be in the next five years, he said: "Not a star, but like, a superstar. Something around, like, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, something like that."

by BigBenign on Nov 23, 2008 12:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wait, rabid Larry Hughes fans exist?

Who woulda thunk it.

by arjoseph on Nov 23, 2008 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

we need this guy working the phones around the league

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 23, 2008 1:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, that challenged my comprehension skills

Who is “Jordon”?

by Granny Waiters on Nov 23, 2008 11:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

One thought:

“Know” IS Larry Hughes.

by arjoseph on Nov 24, 2008 4:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL!

by Granny Waiters on Nov 24, 2008 7:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The pick is top 10 protected through 2010

link

by Jamaicanpi on Nov 22, 2008 3:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

try again

link

by Jamaicanpi on Nov 22, 2008 3:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So we trade Thabo and a pick

And get the benefits of having Chris Kaman and not having Larry Hughes?

I’m on that like white on rice.

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Nov 22, 2008 2:23 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I mean it makes tons of sense for us, I just don't know how into it the Nets would be

but it seems they want to move Carter and the Clips seem to want him, the sticking point for NJ seems to be that they don’t want to take on Kaman’s contract for four years. This helps them avoid that problem.

by fundamentallysound on Nov 22, 2008 2:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It sounds great! I like it.

man up!

by exult463 on Nov 22, 2008 4:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Have you seen Carter's Contract

Thats how into it the Nets would be.

I suppose that this deal is better for the Nets than a deal that Cleveland should have on the table, Carter for Wally Sczerbiak’s expiring deal, or Ben Wallaces 2 year Hughes like deal.

by BigWay on Nov 22, 2008 7:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The other thing is...

The Nets and Knicks don’t want to make Cleveland better. They want to see Cleveland fail because that increases the likelihood of LeBron leaving

by Jamaicanpi on Nov 22, 2008 7:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Good thinking

I’m not sure how desperate the Nets will be for 2010 since their arena may not be ready, and the Knicks are now involved….but if they are, this is a great idea to try and take advantage of it.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 22, 2008 2:52 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I feel awkward rec'ing a trade idea...

so I’m just going to type “rec.”

Good idea though. Matt’s point about the Nets is valid, but even if the arena isn’t ready the year Lebron joins the team, it’ll be ready eventually.

More importantly, Lebron will be just as motivated by winning as he will be by the endorsement deals. If the Nets show him a team with Devin Harris, an offensively improved Thabo, Yi, the better Lopez…is that enough?? They almost need to clear room for two 2010 free agents, a la Knicks, for it to make sense…

by BigBenign on Nov 22, 2008 3:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Are the Nets actually players for 2010?

Like Matt stated, their arena construction has been halted, and they aren’t moving to Brooklyn anytime soon. Maybe if Thorn just wants to cut costs and re-imagine the Nets’ Big Three as Harris, Lopez, and Yi this trade makes sense. I think NJ is content with what they are right now. They could possibly make the playoffs, and VC really is their only ticket attraction.

by Ozzie Montana on Nov 22, 2008 3:29 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Would be a great move

but wouldn’t this put Chicago into the luxury tax? Therefore making it impssible with JR’s tight ass

"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan

by bennythebull on Nov 22, 2008 4:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

No, the Bulls take back less in salary than they send out in this deal.

Another bonus!

by fundamentallysound on Nov 22, 2008 4:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

woops, meant to respond to bennythebull's comment.

The Bulls would be sending out nearly 15 million between Hughes and Thabo and getting back about 13.5 million (when you add in Kaman’s trade kicker). They shave about 1.3-1.4 million off of payroll AND avoid having to pay another rookie first round draft pick next year. This deal can’t lose in JR’s eyes!

by fundamentallysound on Nov 22, 2008 4:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Unless he likes tall shooting guards

by BigBenign on Nov 22, 2008 4:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Amazing scoring machines you mean.

Hughes is a beast. Slashing through the lane and to the rim. Locking down the opponents to scorer.

by Unrealcity on Nov 22, 2008 10:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This trade would have to be the starting point of more moves

I was working around with a trade almost exactly similar this morning when something dawned on me. Such a trade essentially kills any chance the Bulls have of competing in the 2010 sweepstakes. I’m certainly not in favor of gutting the roster and/or tanking the next couple seasons to get under the cap. At the same time, moving Hughes to acquire Kaman takes the team where? I don’t think anywhere good enough to warrant killing a chance at having enough cap space 2 years from now.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Nov 22, 2008 5:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I think the Bulls need to jettison

Nocioni and Kirk regardless – if they’re on the team, there’s no 2010 for us anyway. Heck, having a legit center might actually be another attraction for Bosh. It’s like – here’s your ready-made championship contender, sir. Step right this way.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Nov 22, 2008 5:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Dumping Kirk for Raef Lafrentz helps there.

Dumping Noc for anything that expires before 2010 is also helpful. I think both are doable, it’s just a matter of finding teams that have no real interest in 2010 and need help. Noc and Hinrich being gone frees up somewhere in the neighborhood of 16-18 million.

by fundamentallysound on Nov 22, 2008 6:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I played with the numbers too

and my thinking is that it doesn’t necessarily kill our 2010 chances. We’d still have a year to make other moves. But yeah, it’d be extremely hard to re-sign Gordon or bring in a comparable replacement, bring in Kaman, and have space for a max FA in 2010. And that’s assuming we get rid of Kirk and Noc too.

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Nov 22, 2008 6:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Did you check out my scenario of dumping Nocioni for an expiring...

…re-signing Gordon and letting Gooden go? Does that provide room in 2010? I figure it came to about $45 million.

That means signed guys would be:
Rose – Hinrich
Gordon
Deng – 2009 1st rounder
??
Noah

I guess Gray could be on there, too. Renounce Thomas to sign a FA in 2010. Thabo, too. Do 1st-round picks have cap holds for that year? Could they not sign the 2010 guy until after they went into Free Agency. I assume Asik wouldn’t have to be signed until afterwards either, right?

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Nov 23, 2008 11:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I believe you're correct

on waiting to sign draft picks for cap space. I remember some team doing that a few years ago to create a little extra room. Although I don’t even remember which team it was.

by CJ Bulls on Nov 23, 2008 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, 1st round picks have a cap hold, but I believe Asik will not (not 100% sure)

Salary wise I figure you’re about right, even including the 2010 1st rounder. Starting with the current guys we get something like:
Deng $11.37
Hinrich $9.50
Gordon $10.00
Rose $5.55
Noah $3.13
2009 #1 $2.00
2010 #1 $1.50
Salary $43.05
Players 7
Cap Holds 4 ~ $1.89
Total Salary $44.94
Cap $63.40 (this assuming about 4% salary increases)

Cap Space $18.46

That’d work. Personally I think I’d rather have Gooden or some other big man for that price than than Kirk, because that big man would have a bigger role with us.

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Nov 23, 2008 1:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Since we are in the dumping mode

We should not be taking on any contracts that go beyond 2009.

Now that we know what Rose is going to be, we should emulate the Knicks and dump everybody that we have to so that we can go after 2 of the big 4 in 2010, Either Lebron or Wade, and either Amare or Bosh. Whichever 2 the Knicks don’t get, we should get the other 2. With Rose we would be better than the Knicks, no matter which 2 they get and whichever 2 we end up with. He might be bumping 30 by then but Joe Johnson wouldn’t look too bad next to Rose either.

We should be; a, or, “the” major player in the summer of 2010, F the Knicks.

by BigWay on Nov 22, 2008 7:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You are forgetting about two people here.

D’Antoni and Steve Nash. Amare already said he would love to play with another superstar if they change teams. And what better situation for him then a “Suns East” with the Knicks and D’Antoni. Nash is having a terrible time adjusting to Porter in Phoenix. He will be ready for a small, “I wanna win a championship” MLE contract and with Lebron to take the ball handling duties when Nash is sitting 20 + minutes a game, it is no problem. I love Rose, but I don’t think we beat this team even if we get Wade and Bosh. Although, it would be awesome to see. Both the Bulls with Wade and Bosh and to go up against such a powerhouse in the Knicks. It’s like the 90’s all over again. Both teams would be historically good I believe and would contend with the Lakers who should still be good coming out of the West along with a grown up Portland. OK, I’m stopping now. All this speculation and dreaming about stuff two years from now is crazy.

by Unrealcity on Nov 22, 2008 10:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

We are taking on $23.5 million in 2010-11

I commented on a straight Hughes for Kaman and Jason Hart deal on Sam Smiths column at Bulls.com earlier today. Is Kaman worth the extra money, in todays NBA probably, barely.

But, Since we are taking on 2 extra years and $23 million we do not have to add any “sweetener” to the deal, that’s what Thabo and the #1 are. If the Nets want salary cap relief they have to pay for it. I’m not giving up either Thabo or the pick, what if lightening strikes twice, maybe this Blake Griffin guys is the 4 we’ve been praying for.

And as mentioned above, bringing in Kaman has a major impact on our ability to do anything in 2010. Is Kaman worth not getting a shot at Lebron, Wade, Amare and Bosh, not to mention Joe Johnson, I don’t think so.

by BigWay on Nov 22, 2008 7:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Carter, Davis and Z-Bo on the same team and it's the Clippers

I know that Donald Sterling is crazy, but is he this crazy, Sounds like a recipe the Isaih Knicks of the West.

by BigWay on Nov 22, 2008 7:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

The first trade that we should make is

Paxson and Vinnie to the Knicks for Donnie Walsh(Knicks GM) and D’Antoni.

This would be our only chance to pair 2 of the big 4 free agents with Rose in 2010, which is exactly what the Knicks are going to do minus Rose, of course.

We are a world class city and we need to think and act like one.
Having already experienced the Jordan years, nothing matters but winning championships.
Kaman and all the other crap being bandied about doesn’t do squat.

Think about how bad it will be if the Knicks are playing Lakers every year for the title, nothing could really be worse for a Chicago Fan, it’s even worse than Celtics/Lakers.

by BigWay on Nov 22, 2008 7:39 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

If the Red Sox and Patriots keep winning (given their respective front offices, that's very likely)

I’d have a much easier time stomaching some success from the Knicks. I’d rather see both franchises crash and burn though.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Nov 22, 2008 9:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

BigWay

Wow! Thanks. I was falling into marginal thinking, hoping Paxson would do anything.
I agree totally the first trade or first move out of the organization needs to be Paxson.

Period, everything else is a little bandaid fix to a major problem to help the team achieve 3 more wins a year.

This organizations thinking, mgmt and minor moves will have D.Rose desire to get the heck out of Chicago as soon as he is able too. Then GM John Paxson can fall back upon his beloved Deng, Kirk and Noc core and he might one day get back to winning over 40 games. Eternal mediocrity. No conference finals or conference championships, just maybe a few playoff appearances, continuelly “Building a Contender”. Till one day, the Bulls eclipse the Chicago Cubs century mark of void of a NBA championship for well over 100 years as GM John Paxson IV leads the team in 2108, after just firing his 26th head coach during his 10 year tenure from taking over from his dad John Paxson III who fired 49 head coaches during his term.

Big Way.. thinking that way, also!

man up!

by exult463 on Nov 22, 2008 10:47 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

solid company.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 23, 2008 1:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

haha

by BigBenign on Nov 23, 2008 1:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yfbb

I believe I understand your perdicament… You really are a great guy…

man up!

by exult463 on Nov 23, 2008 6:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This only happens

if the team stays in the Reinsdorf family.

by Granny Waiters on Nov 23, 2008 11:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

A REAL GOOD TRADE!

rec. +1

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....

by piccolomair on Nov 23, 2008 2:01 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I'm not convinced Kaman is that good.

I hate Hughes and think Thabo is expendable, but I’m not ready to give up a first-round pick (cheap production that would be used to replace Nocioni’s expensive production) and the Bulls 2010 cap space for Kaman. He’s better, no doubt. But I don’t think he’s that much better.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Nov 23, 2008 11:08 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I have those concerns as well, but I'm much more cynical about the Bulls ability to get in on

the 2010 sweepstakes than you and others around here that see it as the only way to really compete. I just don’t see the Bulls actually being real players in that spending frenzy. I’m sure JR’s reputation for being a cheap-ass has made its way around the league and its players, especially if we know about it. I’m just looking for ways to realistically improve this team. Maybe a better idea is doing this same trade (substituting an LAC first rounder going to the Nets rather than ours) for Marcus Camby rather than Kaman. His defense and rebounding would be helpful down low for us and he expires in 2010. He can also hit jump shots in the high post at a decent clip which would be nice.

by fundamentallysound on Nov 23, 2008 1:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder what the correlation between Adjusted +/- Fans and Draft Chris Kaman partisans is

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Nov 23, 2008 3:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hm, that's an interesting question. I'm a big believer in the adjusted plus-minus approach

but it like all other approaches has limitations. If you put a guy in a new system, he’s likely to behave differently and contribute in different ways. I know it’s supposed to mathematically take all the other players around the player out of the way, but it’s impossible to remove the entire context which the player is playing it. It’s a function of the backward looking nature of stats. We can say that Chris Kaman is a -2 adjusted plus / minus contributor in his role in LA, but what if he comes here? Would he better? Would he be worse? There’s almost no way of knowing for sure, because his role would be different.

by fundamentallysound on Nov 23, 2008 7:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Clippers are not trading Camby. Period.

They think Camby can play well with either Kaman or Randolph and I agree. The problem is that both Kaman and Randolph need to occupy the same space. They aren’t going to trade Camby and then be left with a starting front court of Z-Bo and Caveman at PF and C. They would be in each others way. For us, it’s Kaman or nothing. Hey would Andris Biedrins be better? Sure, but we can’t get him. There are several players out there better than Kaman, but of the quasi available ones, Kaman actually makes us better as a team.

by Unrealcity on Nov 24, 2008 4:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, that was a good effort. ;-P

I’m not against it… because 2010 is absolutely no guarantee. And Kaman definitely makes the team better…. In fact, all things considered, I’m sure it’s technically “very unlikely”.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Nov 24, 2008 9:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs