Start the clock on VDN
by Ugh It Live! on Nov 20, 2008 12:11 PM CST
50 comments
Because after last night's debacle and the surefire Hughes fiasco, Vinny might not make it back from the West coast alive. Now while I'm still going to cut VDN some slack for now, I still believe that the Bulls should have contingency plans in place for if/when VDN is fired.
If, and this is a big if, Pax still remains after VDN is fired, he and Steve Schanwald will have the job of replacing yet another failed coach. Only this time, the assistant coaches actually have head coaching experience. I'm pretty sure that Bernie Bickerstaff and Del Harris handle a lot of the X's and O's already, leaving the lineups and rotation calls to Vinny, but one of those two would have to be named as the interim coach and possibly even remain depending on their performance.
No matter who takes over - and again this is all speculation - the focus MUST be on our two biggest assets: Derrick Rose and our expiring contracts/$$$ that will allow us to take a shot in 2010.
Hopefully the outsider perception of this team has improved with Rose's great start, and coaches won't shy away from us like they did before we eventually landed on VDN.
So the whole point of this post really is to figure out who the best coaching candidate would be going into 09/10. If VDN is replaced at some point this year, the Bulls would be starting their 3rd consecutive season with a new head coach and most likely a new "system". Granted there will most likely be additions and subtractions to our roster this year, so finding a coach whose philosophy fits with our roster isn't the easiest of tasks. As far as I'm concerned the "core" should only consist of Rose, Deng and the addition of Gordon with a new contract sometime this year.
Any thoughts on coaches around the league or anyone else who could come in and actually help these guys or are we looking at Harris/Bickerstaff as future candidates for the head job?
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If that's the option, I'd rather stick with Vinny
While Vinny’s system doesn’t seem to match up well w/ most of the players, it at least suits Rose. I strongly doubt Avery would give Rose enough rope to go out and win games.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Nov 20, 2008 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Although Im a fan of Vinny's hair
his calm demenour during our blowout was uncalled for. He should have been hollering and hooting
"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury's Head Tattoo
by Belize on Nov 20, 2008 12:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
What?
Have you ever seen Phil Jackson hooting and hollering? A coach doesn’t need to call his guys out there on the floor like a madman. As long as a coach takes care of business behind closed doors I don’t really care what he looks like on the sidelines. Skiles, who I think is a phenominal coach, is said to be a taskmaster yet he never explodes on the bench either. The biggest problems with VDN are his lack of plays and his rotations.
by dakoose on Nov 20, 2008 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dont ever compare Phil to Vinny
ever
"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury's Head Tattoo
by Belize on Nov 20, 2008 2:34 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That is very...
“you sir, are no John Kennedy.”
by McCabe on Nov 21, 2008 8:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I seriously doubt
VDN will be fired anytime soon, especially this season…the only way he gets fired this season is if the team wins 10 games or less. Most pre-season predictions I saw this season had the team in the lower 30s…so if he gets that or anywhere close to it (25 and up), he’ll buy himself another season in Pax’s eyes.
Paxson: “Well it’s a process…”
Me: “Shut the hell up.”
by NormVanBeer on Nov 20, 2008 12:33 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Anyone know of
a website that tracks coaches’ salaries/contracts?
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Nov 20, 2008 12:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Don't fire Vinny
Fire John Paxson! This is the first time I (a big Pax fan as a kid from those championship era’s) have stooped this low, but we can’t just keep going through coaches and not seeing anything.
There is talent on this roster, true, but anybody from inside to outside the organization knows that we have so many freaking flaws…..Tyrus and Noah….Tyrus especially should have been sent down to a stint in the development league early on….we haven’t had a really decent Center since….oh…..I don’t know, i guess 2004-2005 Tyson off the bench was very good in stretches for us, but before that I guess Brad Miller. Curry was and is too inconsistent and if folks complain Gordon’s a one trick pony, Curry’s even more one trick and not as good at that one trick as BG is….
Yes, yesterday’s debacle, the lack of movement all offseason, the HORRIBLE year that was last year and the lack of making a real coaching change until the offseason and even having that go horribly wrong from a media persepective….fire John, or have him go back to radio or TV.
Last night was that. The coaching staff was fine, it’s the players and the lack of team building (the team is not built well and hasn’t been for over a year now) that is the biggest concern, and that’s the GM’s job.
Pax, loved you as a player. You did a good job as our GM for a while, but like other GM’s before and others afterwards, you let the emotions get the better of the “business end” of being a GM and now the franchise is moving back to the 1999-2000 state….
by majoyenrac on Nov 20, 2008 12:44 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
The last good center the Bulls had
was Bill Cartwright. Before that, Artis Gilmore.
Gray is good in comparison to Dalibor Bagaric and Mike Smrek, however.
by Granny Waiters on Nov 20, 2008 9:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't fire Vinny
He at least gets the whole season. I’m also assuming that the roster will look a bit different after February.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 20, 2008 12:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
that said
unlike last time when Paxson didn’t realize he needed a coach even after firing Skiles…he should have guys in mind for the offseason just in case.
I mean, not that he can hire, but he can like leave a list for the next GM.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 20, 2008 12:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you saying that there's such a thing as thinking ahead?
Hey, no fair. Pax didn’t know there was such a thing…
Probably because no matter how much planning he does, he can always be sabotaged by the owner’s 11th hour indecision.
“We were all set to hire Doug, when I thought to myself, ’You’re my friend, Doug.’…” or “We were all set to extend an offer to Mike when I said, ‘Let me get the paperwork together for the next 10 days or so.’…”
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Nov 21, 2008 11:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
tradeable assets
Kirk Hinrich is to the Bulls as Freddie Mac stock is to a stock portfolio: no current value.
http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=FRE
by chicago-homesick-blues on Nov 21, 2008 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
VDN has coached 12 friggin games
EVER. Just because Derrick is adjusting well doesn’t mean you should expect a first-time coach at ANY level to just “get it.”
If you’d be OK letting Rose chuck a few bad passes into the stands, the same should hold for VDN. Like almost everybody here I felt last night’s lineup was an abomination. But I suspect Vinny will learn from it, just as Derrick will learn from his mistakes. If he’s this apparently inept come April, fine, fire his ass. But I doubt he will be.
Asked what kind of player he expects to be in the next five years, he said: "Not a star, but like, a superstar. Something around, like, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, something like that."
by BigBenign on Nov 20, 2008 1:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Like I said above
I’m still willing to cut Vinny some slack. All I wanted to do w/ this post was to start a conversation about potential coaches for 09/10. Even if VDN does win 30 games this year – would you want him as the head coach of a team that’s hopefully going to be adding a huge piece in 2010 and vying for a Championship by 2011/12?
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Nov 20, 2008 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just as Celtic fans were
yelling to fire Doc Rivers and then all of a sudden he’s great?
by J Theory on Nov 20, 2008 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope that Boston
fans realize it was the addition of KG/Allen/Posey that won them the title, not Rivers’ coaching. But I wouldn’t put anything past someone from Boston.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Nov 20, 2008 1:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that's why i was so glad
when scott got COY since i had a feeling lots of votes would go to rivers even though he still sucks.
by Jaina on Nov 20, 2008 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Byron Scott is exactly
the coach the Bulls need. A former player who rose up the ranks and learned under a great coach in Rick Adelman. Led the Nets to two NBA Finals before being unfairly let go and look what he’s done in NO.
He’ll probably be in NO for a long time, so there’s no way the Bulls could pry him out but someone I’ve always liked as a player (even though he was a Knick) and has done great things as an assistant coach is Patrick Ewing.
He turned Dwight Howard from a massive dunking machine into a legitimate low-post threat. I’m not going to say imagine how well he could help Tyrus/Joakim because I thought that’s what Mike Brown was hired for, but forget that they can even be developed for now.
I’ve said this before on here and was met with quite the resistance but I really think he’s a great up-and-coming coach. And for those who think he’s too old to start a head coaching career, Ewing is only 2 years older than Nate McMillan.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Nov 20, 2008 2:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Then again,
Rivers coaching has definitely not prevented them from winning that title either.
The Game chose him !
by Diabolo on Nov 21, 2008 2:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
In part, I agree.
I think Del Negro stinks. His lineup tinkering is unbelievable. That said, I think “experience” typically helps coaches learn that too much screwin’ around just does more harm than good—just play your best players. That said, it’s sometimes hard to distinguish the “best players” on the Bulls team. That said, Hughes and Gray should never be in that conversation.
Starting Thabo over Hinrich and Hughes over Nocioni is just mind-boggling stupid and just plain unacceptable.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Nov 20, 2008 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"just play your best players."
Why is that so hard for the Bulls, not just VDN but the whole organization, to GET??
Asked what kind of player he expects to be in the next five years, he said: "Not a star, but like, a superstar. Something around, like, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, something like that."
by BigBenign on Nov 20, 2008 1:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He started Larry Hughes and Aaron Gray
Sometimes you just gotta say no
by gobulls1124 on Nov 20, 2008 1:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I love that you threw Steve Schanwald into the decision-making mix
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Nov 20, 2008 2:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
VDN "THINK"
What the heck was VDN thinking with that staring line-up. Nocioni should have started with Rose, Gordon, Gooden & Simmons. I know, I know why Ced, because that would fire up Thomas and Noah and they would have to prove that they should be in instead of Ced and we would have gotten better play from them off the bench.
by PricanStar on Nov 20, 2008 2:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
If Aaron Gray starting over you doesn't fire you up, I'm not sure Simmons does.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Nov 20, 2008 2:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
and if that doesn't fire them up
literally light a flame under their asses
Thabo Sefolosha: His last name sounds like a disease, and his ballgame IS one.
by chibullsfan03 on Nov 20, 2008 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gray starting deflates them ..
Gray muscles, pushes, bumps them around and scores all over both of them in practice, Gray’s expectation is establised …he is a true a reserve!
man up!
by exult463 on Nov 21, 2008 12:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought only the dearly departed JoeJoe
was stalking the Berto.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 21, 2008 12:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
feedback from Berto staff person ..
man up!
by exult463 on Nov 21, 2008 12:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Where does John Paxson live?
We need to mob his house and force him to fire VDN and instead hire the Blog A Bull community. We’d work for free (at least I would) if it meant the Bulls had a decent coach! I’ve decided to have a rather long signature now and go with my hit list instead of my “optimistic” signature of “Get the rock to Rose!!”.
My hit list: Larry, Thabo, Lindsay, Demetris, Cedric, Aaron, Paxson, Reinsdorf, Del Negro, and Schanwald. We're left with Rose, Gordon, Hinrich, Deng, Noce, Gooden, Tyrus, Noah, Harris, and Bickerstaff. Harris takes coach and Bickerstaff takes GM. Who needs an owner? Pay for it with the money that the Blog A Bull community will spend on tickets to see a good team!
by stupidgenius on Nov 20, 2008 4:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I just want someone who gets mad when his team refuses to paly D.
Homecoming
by illwill on Nov 20, 2008 7:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Norm?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 21, 2008 10:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"Start throwing some elbows
when I used to play our tight shorts would back us play even harder"
by J Theory on Nov 21, 2008 2:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Skiles?
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Nov 21, 2008 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In the article it says Hughes is a former all-star! WTF! Please tell me it’s a misprint, please tell me it’s a misprint, please…
My hit list: Larry, Thabo, Lindsay, Demetris, Cedric, Aaron, Paxson, Reinsdorf, Del Negro, and Schanwald. We're left with Rose, Gordon, Hinrich, Deng, Noce, Gooden, Tyrus, Noah, Harris, and Bickerstaff. Harris takes coach and Bickerstaff takes GM. Who needs an owner? Pay for it with the money that the Blog A Bull community will spend on tickets to see a good team!
Correction: Matt takes GM, and Bickerstaff stays Head Assistant Coach.
by stupidgenius on Nov 20, 2008 8:29 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
All Defensive 1st Team one year,
but not an All Star.
Link
by Granny Waiters on Nov 20, 2008 9:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is too premature..period..this will be the decision of the next GM.
If the discussion was instead “When does the clock stop on P.x..n”
Then we would be making progress in the right direction, because we can’t keep firing coaches. At some point someone higher is accountable. Sure the owner has his part in this debacle, but you can’t fire the owner. The owner really needs someone who will make him look good, regardless of his own meddling and desire to be the hidden unaccountable GM.
My sincere hope is the owner will next hire someone with some true negoiation skills, an eye for real talent and also some mojo to pull the trigger at the expense of not always agreeing with the owner. But then knowing how later to smooth things over. In essense, a “player” but not only in the sense of basketball. Things the current guy lack.
man up!
by exult463 on Nov 21, 2008 4:50 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
It might be premature, but in the past couple of days I've seen some major warning flags
1. Hughes bitching and then getting rewarded for it.
2. The quote about Tyrus Thomas (VDN doesn’t want to hurt his confidence by coaching him so he lets him hang out away from the basket)
3. The completely disorganized start-to-finish rout the other night. Every NBA team is gonna get blown out occasionally. Even great ones. And the players aren’t as bad as they looked the other. But they were completely out-everythinged that you expect coaches to bring
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Nov 21, 2008 7:15 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
All things you would expect from a rookie coach without any coaching experience..
did we have any other expectations of VDN? He needs time to develop his own personal coaching methods with trial and error.
Paxsdorf picked him! Do you think they had lofty expectations from a rookie coach with no experience?
I have no idea?
Honestly VDN is a low key guy and never has come across as an “alpha male” type in either is basketball playing days or personality.
But that doesn’t mean he evenually won’t be a great coach. Yet, I agree on your three points. If they are true, it shows he has some gaps that he needs to improve upon being a rookie coach. A rookie coach, with his hand picked assistant “chiefs” who already have their own basketball coaching methodolgy already established, like a old hog dog. One speaking in VDN left ear the other in his right, and the young players questioning his game time decisions and substitutions.
A “Paxsdorf” Receipe
man up!
by exult463 on Nov 21, 2008 9:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure I was lambasted for saying the coaching was the sucks concerning Thomas...
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Nov 21, 2008 2:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Because it was so ridiculous to think the coach is doing that on purpose!
I’d rather give VDN the benefit of doubt than you. :P
My mistake, I guess…
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Nov 21, 2008 2:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I didn't think he was doing it just for Thomas's confidence either.
Just that, a) he, himself, had confidence that Thomas would start knocking them down and b) he had confidence in his own offensive system. After all, if Thomas could hit 15 footers even as well as Gooden, the team is that much better.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Nov 21, 2008 6:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They've played better than I've expected so far
Surely the staff has something to do with that. Which of their losses were they supposed to win? The hallelujah chorus from the players of “me me me” is nothing new. He’s got a very weak hand. Personally, I don’t see much improvement come from teams who have coaching carousels.
If we had matchup advantages that the strategy failed to exploit, that’s on the coach. We don’t; stats aren’t the entire story, but when they consistently tell the same story, there’s a message there. Our personnel is not very good. I liked fundamentallysounds’ post about Thabo; he’s made great strides to get to average this year. But if you look at 82games 08-09 numbers, we score out approximately the same way we did last year: mediocre to weak with one big change: we have a good point guard now.
My judgment on VDN doesn’t come until March or April, and even then it’s more like an exit poll. If TT and or Noah have some kind of a light come on, and we play +.500 in the second half, I’ll consider it a successful rookie stint for the staff.
by California Al on Nov 21, 2008 10:13 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
The clock on the Team
I believe something is extremely off base with the Bulls under Paxsdorf. It is now being uncovered with Tyrus and Noah (equate draft selection position to compensation). It was uncovered recently with Hinrich with the drafting of Rose. Urged strongly by many after the Noch signing.
Initially Talent Selection, and Talent assessment to salary compensation.
Paxsdorf teams seem to operate in a vacuum, and mgmt really may have a uneducated assessment of players skills in comparison in the NBA game of basketball.
Now with Rose, many have a bar to measure stardom against, previously the Hinrich’s and Deng’s were the ceilings, and a Tyrus was preceived as a potential next level of something many could envision but couldn’t really conceptualize. “An All-Star in Chicago”, effectionately labeled a “Super Star” on BaB.
This issue is materialized by paying the best of a bunch of average players near market value of counterparts of starters on other teams. Especially after one good season or playoff appearances in a very weak conference at the time.
Yet, after defensives make adjustments to individual players their game fails to step up to the next level in the following years.
Now the entire bunch of Bulls quite possibly would be backup players to most all of their counterparts, if on the same roster.
Imagine “Gooden”, previously known as an inconsistent player, couldn’t crack the starting lineup consistenly with Cleveland, comes to Chicago and becomes the best front court player. Luol Deng’s only competition is Thabo or AG (Griffin), because Noc is a tweeter PF.
Thereby making most of the Bulls starting players true reserves, spot starters, or potential future starters if someone like Paul Pierce, Carol Bulter, Iggy, Josh Howard or Smith, Shawn Marion, Gerald Wallace, Portland’s Outlaw or Webster went down with an injury?
The problem is this issue and salary decisions continued to follow the same pattern, over and over.
man up!
by exult463 on Nov 21, 2008 2:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'm too lazy to look it up
But what’s the fewest number of games that a rookie NBA coach had under his belt before he was fired?
by tominhawaii on Nov 21, 2008 3:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
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