Trade idea #394 (Bulls-Blazers)
by Sports2 on Nov 2, 2008 8:02 PM CST
62 comments
Bulls trade Kirk, Noc and Simmons
Blazers trade Raef, Martell Webster and Channing Frye
Martell Webster just signed a relatively cheap extension, and I think he can be traded by the deadline. He's big, athletic, only 21, on a solid contract, and is a very good shooter. Put it all together and he could be the right guy to put next to Rose. And if he's not, he doesn't kill us because he's still moveable.
Raef LaFrentz is an expiring contract. By trading away our two guys for the Blazers guys, we net about $12.5M in additional room under the luxury tax threshold next year. That makes it possible for us to resign both Gordon and Gooden if we choose, or take back salary in sign and trades.
Frye will be an RFA next year, and might constitute a cheap(er) big man to replace Gooden should we feel the need.
In short, this is a trade that opens a lot of options for us while closing few off.
For the Blazers, I'm reading they want more veterans, and their biggest areas of need are at PG and SF. So our guys might make sense for them.
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Best idea I've seen in some time. Someone show this to Paxson.
Blazers have to come to grips with the fact that Steve Blake (lol!) and a rookie Jerry Bayless (double lolz) aren’t going to get them far this year…right? Kirk is a clear-cut upgrade right now, and possibly even in the future depending on how Bayless pans out.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Nov 2, 2008 8:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
they just signed him 2 days ago
come on.
I’m also disappointed you couldn’t find a way to get Joel Przybilla in a Bulls uniform.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 2, 2008 9:01 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Because Przybilla in a Bulls uniform would make me fucking cry.
Yeah, I know they just signed him 2 days ago, but I’m talking this trade up for like 4 months from now. That’s forever!
Seriously though, the Blazers re-signed him because that’s what Paul Allen does and Jerry Reinsdorf doesn’t. They’re going to lock up talented players if they can do it for reasonable money. But at the end of the day, I don’t see how they can make him untouchable or anything when they’ve got the money to spend and so many other good players. They signed him because he’d be tradeable later.
by Sports2 on Nov 2, 2008 9:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How about figuring out a way
to trade Raef to SAC or LAC for Miller or the Twolves 1st round pick?
by hlac on Nov 2, 2008 9:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I think Kirk is worth more than an expiring contract
and that is all we get here. I’m not certain some members of the Bulls don’t believe Kirk is better than Ben. I don’t see them moving Hinrich for cap space. They value him too highly. I think the only way the Bulls move Hinrich, especially if he continues to play well, is if they get a starter in return.
Plus if you trade Kirk, you really need to either get back a back-up pg or sign one. I don’t want to see BG or Hughes playing the point.
by DangerMouse on Nov 2, 2008 9:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Webster
is a tall, sweet-shooting swingman who just signed a fairly reasonable (4yr, 20M, final year is a team option) deal. So we keep him no matter what.
He’s a fallback in the (likely) event Gordon walks or is traded. Or, if you’re right in how the Bulls value Gordon, Webster is the likely starter.
Frye is an expiring contract but one that we could potentially re-sign since he’ll be an RFA. Especially in the (likely?) even Gooden walks or is traded.
by Sports2 on Nov 2, 2008 10:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't Webster actually more of a 3 than a 2, though?
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Nov 2, 2008 10:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He's listed as a SG or G-F everywhere I've seen
I think honestly he’s a swing player who could play either spot. With the Blazers he’s called the 3 because Brandon Roy is clearly a guard. Roles get fuzzy.
But why I do sort of like him for the Bulls is that I think he’s a pretty good fit skills wise between Rose and Deng. He’s a spot up shooter, seems to like running the floor, and is already a decent defender. I’d like it if he had a better handle, but we want the ball in Rose’s hands mostly, and Webster’s got all the tools to be very effective with him.
by Sports2 on Nov 2, 2008 10:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess what I'm really asking is
whether or not he has effectively guarded 2s. Where is Mortimer when you need him?
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Nov 2, 2008 10:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
I went on BlazersEdge about a week back to guage whether a Hinrich for Fernandez swap was feasible. They went ballistic. People were honestly saying they woudln’t trade him for James, Ginobili – anyone. I’ve never come across fans with a more inaccurate appraisal of their own players. The pritchard worship can get frankly a little uncomfortable. There was one post titled “Forgive me, Pritchard, for I have sinned.”
I think my modest propsal got rejected 50 times in about 5 minutes. Some were generous. Others were foaming-at-the-mouth insane.
Then Mortimer came to my blogging rescue. It was hilarious.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Nov 3, 2008 6:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry if you left with a bad impression
I hope I was one of the more generous people since I wouldn’t be against a trade for Hinrich. I would rather think the Bulls want to keep him since you have, uhm, only 2 point guards and Ben Gordon potentially on the move. And yeah, most guys on BE do love them some Rudy and think he is the second coming of Ginobili or at least Kevin Martin ;-)
by Norsktroll on Nov 3, 2008 4:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nah most of you guys
are cool dudes. Every site has its loons. The trouble is, as a vistor to another blog, you don’t know who they are!
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Nov 4, 2008 9:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dave at Blazersedge set up some spy program
where his readers would get one blog to track any Blazer-talk and set us straight if necessary. I’m disappointed the rep for this blog hasn’t shown up…he seemed enthusiastic.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 3, 2008 9:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait...seriously?
That seems like a joke on the surface but with those guys at BE, I’d actually believe it. Pretty awesome if true.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Nov 3, 2008 9:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's meant to be good natured :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 3, 2008 10:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
we're here
and i actually like this trade….pull the trigga
and for the record, I wouldn’t trade Rudy for Michael Jordan in 1992
He who laughs last thinks slowest.
by prezofdeath on Nov 3, 2008 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was on vacation in "Oregon"
This space for rent.
by tominhawaii on Nov 3, 2008 1:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ha
I meant “vacation” in Oregon. I really do live in Hawaii.
This space for rent.
by tominhawaii on Nov 3, 2008 1:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Heh. Good to see you've arrived.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Nov 3, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you folks are gonna like Tom
He’s just as revered as Morty on BE.
by Corvid on Nov 3, 2008 2:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I ordered fireworks and a band for my arrival
The S.O.B.‘s got the date and the blog wrong. SLC Dunk didn’t know what hit them. I had the people responsible for the fuck up chemically castrated. I frequently go off topic, and I don’t fuck around.
This space for rent.
by tominhawaii on Nov 3, 2008 3:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
me neither
and off topic is prohibited, since I likely don’t like anyone here outside of a mutual appreciation of the NBA.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 3, 2008 4:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Awe man
Off topic is my hobby. At least I can cuss over here.
This space for rent.
by tominhawaii on Nov 4, 2008 2:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
someone from BE
actually tried to enforce that rule over here!
by Jaina on Nov 4, 2008 9:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What a dumb ass
Ha, I’m fitting right in. I’m of the “When in Rome” mentality. I always f-around though. I was just trying to sound tough because someone called you folks “Blog a Bullies.”
This space for rent.
by tominhawaii on Nov 4, 2008 9:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why are you still trying to trade Hinrich?
He is leading the team in assists, FG, 3pt while averaging 13pts a night. I get that Rose took his job, but Hinrich is one of the only players who have stepped up their game to start the season…what’s more, you want to trade him for second tier players who will be 8th, 9th or 14th in our potential rotation? The trade is terrible this season, and terrible next season.
The idea should be to consolidate talent for better players, not move two consistent rotation players for guys of lesser value…Kirk and Nocioni are actually playing well this season, when they are traded, we should get something of substantial value for them, not deep bench players or guys with that upside tag…
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 2, 2008 11:01 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Talent will be "consolidated" one way or another
Gooden and Gordon are “two consistent rotation players” as well. And they will likely be lost for nothing. That’s the nature of the game with the Bulls. This team isn’t going to pay everyone, so it needs to make choices.
Right now we’ve got 4 players. Next year we can only afford two of them. If they’re not traded, the other guys will simply be “consolidated” into cap space and we’ll be left with… still… a bunch of ill-fitting parts.
by Sports2 on Nov 3, 2008 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's the part that many people seem to miss
we need to see how best to allocate our money around Rose. It’s deciding the best way that we should argue about. Backup combo guard probably shouldn’t take up 9mm on the salary cap, especially when he has somewhat significant value as starting pg on a good team.
by CJ Bulls on Nov 3, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
not bad
but more and more Id like Kirk to stay the rest of the year as a backup PG/SG…i think its really helpin Rose’s progression
"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury "The Great"
by Belize on Nov 2, 2008 11:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Just a guess
But the Blazers don’t do this deal because, they don’t want to give up their cap space for Hinrich and Nocioni at $18-15 million per until 2011-2012. They are better off letting LaFrenz expire and use the money in free agency.
Also unless we get an all star caliber 2 guard in a trade (someone like a Joe Johnson) I am guessing that the Bulls are going to decide that Hinrich is a better fit in a three guard rotation with Rose and (fill in the Blank, right now Thabo) than Gordon is.
Do the Blazers, or anybody else for that matter see Nocioni as a starter.
Webster seems to be a Thabo like player, and is at best a swingman betwee the 2 and 3 positions. I’m a Thabo guy and a Gordon hater and since Webster can’t be traded until January just like Gordon, so I’d rather see
Gordon and Nocioni, or Gordon and Gooden, to me the 2 players most likely not to be on the Bulls next year, and despite Goodens contributions the 2 players that I prefer to move first.
I don’t think that either Webster or Frye are bonafide starters so this trade is a sideways move for the Bulls, so I wouldn’t be in a rush to make a move just to make a move.
by BigWay on Nov 2, 2008 11:27 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
This is the team to trade with..
only they don’t need our long contracts, Kirk or the our other expensive backup players.
Chicago Bulls paying fans and mgmt need Kirk for the feel goodness far more than any other NBA team. Kirk stays.
Maybe Simmons, Thabo now, and Hughes sometimes during next year. Portland needs expiring contract so they can give away real talent back
B. Roy and L. Alridge are far better than TT will ever be and it’s really no argument. Paxson needs to position himself to help take on some of the salary demands Portland won’t be able to meet, this team is loaded with talent at all positions.
They (Portland) has guys who can’t get off the bench who are better than some of our guys playing 25-30 minutes per game. Not to dis our players, this is only an indictment against John Paxson.
by exult463 on Nov 2, 2008 11:48 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Portland can handle any salary demand
Paul Allen pays the tax.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 3, 2008 9:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Blazers fan here
We don’t want Nocioni, that’s for sure.
There is one trade that we may do by the dead line.
Blake + Outlaw for Kirk
and that’s it.
by Falcao on Nov 3, 2008 7:27 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
If i'm a blazers fan i'd be doing cartwheels to get Hinrich in a trade for Webster,
Webster isn’t even going to have a large role on that team going forward. Whereas Hinrich could be your starting pg. I’m so sick of these Blazers fans and even national media outlets for that matter proclaiming the Blazers the next dynasty. They haven’t even made the playoffs yet people! The team is a paper tiger, in order for them to do anything Oden has to be a hall of fame caliber player. The rest of that team is overrated as hell. In fact they kind of remind me a lot of the Bulls the last couple years. Roy and Aldridge are nice players, but if those two guys are your one, two punch you won’t sniff the second round.
And give me a break on this supposed genius Kevin Pritchard and his gathering of talent. We’ve seen that first hand here in Chicago and can tell you that you can collect all the middling role players you want (Bayless, Fernandez, Webster, Outlaw etc.) and it won’t mean a damn thing when you run into Kobe or Chris Paul in the playoffs. You need a big time palyer to win in the NBA and the guy you’re counting on can’t sneeze without missing time. Let’s see how much of a genius Kevin Pritchard is if Oden never get’s going. The rookie of the year currently resides in Chicago!!!
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 3, 2008 8:14 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
When did hell get overrated?
Most people I know think that place sucks.
This space for rent.
by tominhawaii on Nov 3, 2008 1:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I actually tought this was good value for you guys
I don’t see Hinrich fitting with Rose, but maybe I’m wrong.
If you guys can get a deal better than 2 capable players with expiring contracts for Kirk I think your GM should go for it.
Webster fits well with the rest of the team and it’s not like Kirk is an all-star PG.
by Falcao on Nov 3, 2008 2:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought the deal for Webster was fair as well.
I just sensed some a serious smug factor in your comment and it bugged me a little. The whole “Blake and Outlaw for Kirk and that’s it” thing seemed like a weird way to put things. As for hell, it is overrated, especially if you like warm weather.
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 3, 2008 3:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We don't want Blake. He sucks.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Nov 3, 2008 9:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you guys overrate your players more than any other fans
on the planet. they’ve won nothing – not one thing – at any level.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Nov 3, 2008 11:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Very true, but Bulls fans undervalue their players more than any other team.
It must be some sort of complex that comes from already having had the best player in history on your team.
If somebody hits you with an object you should beat the hell out of them.-Charles Barkley
by Winchester on Nov 3, 2008 2:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
rewind a year to the Kobe trade rumors
we were so young and naive then :).
If the Blazers had a season as bad as the ‘07-’08 Bulls the fury will start to flow.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 3, 2008 2:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's some bad Karma.
Bulls fans cheering for Kobe Bryant at a home game.
If somebody hits you with an object you should beat the hell out of them.-Charles Barkley
by Winchester on Nov 3, 2008 3:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's selective
The Bulls, by one report, wouldn’t even offer Nocioni for Gasol.
On the other hand, they traded Tyson Chandler for PJ Brown.
Oh… you said the Bulls fans… oops.
by Sports2 on Nov 3, 2008 3:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, supposing this trade goes through,
Who do we target with Frye’s pending departure?
This assumes we wouldn’t want to keep Frye. The common critiques of him are that he’s a soft, jump-shooting big man. His fast fade in NYC shows that he’s mentally soft, as well (similar to Gordon/Deng/Hinrich last season, different only by a matter of degrees).
On the other hand, a jump shooting big is exactly what David West is. Next to Rose, could Frye become a mainstay?
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Nov 3, 2008 10:38 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
David West is 10 times the palyer Channing Frye is.
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 3, 2008 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
I thought Channing Frye love at BaB was so 2006.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 3, 2008 11:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If Channing Frye emulates David West
Matt makes a billion dollars running this blog.
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Nov 3, 2008 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
awwww
:-(
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 3, 2008 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My only problem with the trade
Is that Frye and Webster are the Blazers only outside shooters. Blake dabbles and Fernandez can shoot the 3, but he’s only played 3 games. Sports2 said it could be in four months from now and then maybe I could go for the trade. A lot of Blazer fans want trades now. I want to wait and see what we have. Webster is still hurt, Oden is hurt, and I don’t think they team has had a chance to play together with everyone healthy to truly evaluate the roster.
This space for rent.
by tominhawaii on Nov 3, 2008 1:34 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I should have said in more detail I'd see this as a deadline trade
Everyone would want time to see how Webster comes back to form. And since he signed the extension I don’t think he can be traded for 3 months anyway.
My expectations would be that he comes back fine. Hinrich and Nocioni are good shooters, so they’d make up a bit of what’s lost in Webster.
For the Bulls, it’d give us a couple more months of Kirk to “give pointers” to Rose.
by Sports2 on Nov 3, 2008 1:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who will be your back up point guard?
I think Rose is the coolest, but I’d still want a guy you can throw out there when the rookie has trouble.
This space for rent.
by tominhawaii on Nov 3, 2008 1:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who cares...
…at that point, we could tolerate a Hughes/Gordon/Sefolosha trio for two months.
by tyger1147 on Nov 3, 2008 2:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. Backup PG seems to be an oft-overstated concern.
I don’t really get it. Any NBA team is going to have other guys that can handle the ball for 10 minutes a game.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Nov 3, 2008 2:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Is that a coy way of asking if we want Sergio or Blake back in a deal with the Blazers? :)
by Sports2 on Nov 3, 2008 2:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nah
I just remember having Damon Stoudamire and being happy when Greg Anthony went in to replace him. I loved Damon on offense though. I’m just a fan of having backups that make up for the starter’s weaknesses.
This space for rent.
by tominhawaii on Nov 3, 2008 3:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I agree in theory. But with where this team is, we’re a lot better off making a long-term move (like getting our financial house in order, and getting a potentially solid wing in Webster) than we are worrying about our backup slots.
by Sports2 on Nov 3, 2008 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can see that
This space for rent.
by tominhawaii on Nov 3, 2008 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
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