Everything is Rose or non-Rose
Tough to evaluate this team after 3 games, they've only looked good against bad teams and looked awful against the Celtics (their only road game at that).
The only thing that was a constant between the 3 is Derrick Rose. He's the only one that can perform against any level of competition. The rest of the team (i.e. the '07-'08 Bulls) kinda stinks.
I want to erase any memory of that Boston game, they're too good and the Bulls are just learning to play with a new PG running a new system. But for that to be fair, most of the Memphis game has to be erased as well, because that's a team the Bulls outclasses in talent, especially in the front court. So it was very frustrating to see them down 9 points in the first half, a period where everyone was shooting jumpers, and if not for Hinrich and Noc's 3-pointers things could've been a lot worse. Deng/Gooden/Thomas were awful from the field, and it was pretty much exclusively on jump shots.
The 3rd quarter is what turned it around. They were able to force TOs, run, and finish. And yes, as it is the type of game he can excel in, Thabo was a big part of it.
Then after all this running basketball, Vinny puts in Aaron Gray for an excruciating 10 minutes. It was like VDN and Mike Ivaroni were playing a game of big stiff chicken, where Gray was countered with Darko and it was a race to see what coach realized they were nuts (for the record Darko was pulled first). Noah didn't play the whole 2nd half, so there was a lot of Gray/Gooden, Gray/Nocioni and Gooden/Nocioni....which is a bad way to defend the basket. Tyrus Thomas had another poor game from the field (after his nationally-embarrassing 2-17 shooting performance on Friday), but he still effects the game with his rebounding and defense, and Saturday he was devouring souls with some of those weak-side shotblocks. Obviously on offense he needs to not think jumper first, and play closer to the basket in general, but I do not mind leaving him out there through all of it...even with a blown lob attempt or two.
None of this really hurt the Bulls since they (especially Luol) eventually started attacking the rim, Memphis' only line of defense was fouling, and the Bulls have the depth that can help them wear down a bad team playing its 2nd consecutive night, even if they are themselves.
(another rotation note: I would've liked to have seen Thabo guard Rudy Gay. Deng had rough time (until the 4th), and Nocioni had no chance. It would've helped free up guard minutes, though somehow Vinny managed to both have a Rose/Gordon/Hinrich lineup and another one with Deng as the SG. What the hell?)
This week may bring some pain, with Orlando/@Cleveland/Phoenix/Cleveland the upcoming opponents. We know the Bulls can win when things are made easy for them, but so far only Rose comes through when it gets tough, both within a game and against the best teams. The rest of the team (namely Deng and Gordon, who've now put in more stinkers than Hinrich and Noc) needs to at least try and keep up with Rose for them to beat the better teams in the league.
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Comments
Can someone w/ a better eye/more knowledge...
…comment on my query on why the Bulls are running pick-and-pops w/ Thomas instead of Deng or Gooden? For me, it’s not just that Thomas is deciding to take jumpers instead of driving to the hoop or posting up, but it’s that he consistently gets the ball 15-18 ft from the basket. Take all of the pick-and-pops they’re giving to Thomas and split them evenly between Gooden and Deng. Gooden can still post up and Deng can still slash, but most importantly, Thomas rarely gets the decision of “should or pull up and shoot or should I drive into all those big bodies of which I’m apparently terrified of.”
Thomas seems nowhere near the basket on offense anymore, and I can’t help but think it’s almost by unintentional design.
by tyger1147 on Nov 2, 2008 12:15 PM CST 0 recs
Not that I have more knowledge OR a better eye....
But I believe the idea with pick and rolls/pick and pops is to create a mismatch, getting your ballhandler on a slow big, or your big rolling/shooting with a little guy on him. While Luol is big for a three, I guess the coaches want a better mismatch?
Asked what kind of player he expects to be in the next five years, he said: "Not a star, but like, a superstar. Something around, like, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, something like that."
by BigBenign on
Nov 2, 2008 12:22 PM CST
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Also,
running it with someone else allows Lu to either cut baseline or float out for a midrange jumper, with either Derrick dishing to him or Tyrus (a GOOD passer) finding him.
Asked what kind of player he expects to be in the next five years, he said: "Not a star, but like, a superstar. Something around, like, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, something like that."
by BigBenign on
Nov 2, 2008 12:23 PM CST
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I'd agree w/ that...
…and in that respect, it’s not a horrible idea initially. However, when Thomas has shown that his first inclination is JUMP SHOOT!!! and not to drive or to pass or to back down, they need to fix something. Either continue to drill it into Thomas’s head that shooting is his third option early in the game, or run the plays through someone else.
by tyger1147 on
Nov 2, 2008 12:29 PM CST
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One thing that may make more sense
is to play Deng as the Power Forward in the offense and let Thomas play the Small Forward. This is just calling different plays with the same players, but we could get movement from Thomas in cuts to the rim and roaming the baseline and a better option off the screen in Deng to catch at 18 and shoot that or dribble in a few feet for a 12 footer or attack of the rim.
I want to find better ways to get Tyrus involved and I think that will come best if he is less involved in the immediate play.
by NBA Observer on
Nov 2, 2008 2:41 PM CST
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Agreed
Traditionally a power forward or a center sets the screen in a pick and roll because that creates a greater mismatch when the taller defender has to switch over to guard Rose. If it were Deng setting the pick, the mismatch wouldn’t be as great by forcing a SF onto Rose, and arguably in many cases there would be no mismatch created. The purpose of the pick-and-roll is to create favorable mismatches.
Ty and Drew can pick and pop so I’m not sure why Drew hasn’t been employed in these as much other than Ty really only having a jumper as his offensive weapon aside from a lob and he has to get opportunities to produce.
by messwiththebull on
Nov 3, 2008 9:02 AM CST
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it'd also help if those two set better picks
Aaron Gray needs to hold a seminar.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Nov 3, 2008 9:28 AM CST
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Deng and Gordon
stand to benefit more than any other players by the addition of Derrick Rose, but it hasn’t happened yet. There are a few reasons why, but two stand out in my mind. The first is that Luol isn’t playing to his strengths. He isn’t the one-on-one player in the NBA that he is at the international level, and he hasn’t realized that. Too often he’s standing around the perimeter, watching, and when he gets it, it’s the ultimate slow down game. He fakes. The ball is held. He fakes. Seconds pass.
This is dreadful offense, and worse to watch. If Luol thinks he has the kind of athleticism to be a one on one player, he’s sorely mistaken. He was given 72 million to be a slasher, rebounder, highly efficient shooter, and willing defender. He can still do those things; but he has to accept his role first.
It’s Derrick’s team now, Lu. Move on.
In terms of Gordon, he’s just not on the floor with Rose that much. They’re discombobulated together, Gordon isn’t in game shape, and on the whole, everybody’s still feeling each other out. That will change with time.
I’m pretty keen on the beginning to this year. They’re 2-1, Rose is far better than anybody thought, and Tyrus is getting run. The fact that he’s still making these bonehead plays after two year is both a testament to how raw he was and the shit-job Boylan and Skiles did developing him.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Nov 2, 2008 12:25 PM CST 1 recs
Great post
Gordon and Deng and Kirk need to realize the days when they monopolized the ball (uselessly for the most part I might add) in the halfcourt are over. This is Rose’s team.
by madvillian on
Nov 2, 2008 3:11 PM CST
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thank you
it’s why I think the team has got some potential: they’re not even a team yet.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on
Nov 2, 2008 3:36 PM CST
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Tyrus is still falling asleep on defense
and changing ends too slowly. He’s moving around the court trying to act like a power forward, but that role isn’t using him to his full potential.
by NBA Observer on
Nov 2, 2008 3:50 PM CST
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I don't know if he'll ever sprint
Skiles was right to be upset about that. Not to the point of benching him, but….it’s frustrating to watch.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Nov 2, 2008 4:26 PM CST
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That's what got me so upset last night.
Which led to an oxymoronic comment, which I was rightfully called out on. And as I said, the (essentially) only time I saw him sprint back on D (after a bad offensive play), he got a steal from behind. I don’t get why he doesn’t even sprint down the court on offense.
by tyger1147 on
Nov 2, 2008 7:09 PM CST
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Could be...
that the reason Thomas still makes bonehead plays is because he’s a dumbass who doesn’t and may never quite get it. But I guess it’s easier to just blame coaches and never put any responibility on those poor mistreated players. Maybe Thomas is just a freaky athlete with a basketball IQ of 6. Man, can he jump though.
by ronmexibull on
Nov 2, 2008 11:24 PM CST
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Isn't it the coaches responsibility to figure out how to use him then? And to maximize his skills?
Damn, must be easy to be a coach. If the players don’t play, it’s not your fault!!!
by tyger1147 on
Nov 3, 2008 8:25 AM CST
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Sure
but to do that they’d have to play Ty at the 4. Ty’s struggles have been a combination of him not knowing the NBA game (and consequently looking like he’s trying to do too much or just plain out of control at times) and being somewhat pulled back and forth between playing like a 3 and a 4. From the preseason games and three regular season games I’ve seen thus far, I don’t know how anyone can still say that Ty is a 4. Just because you block shots doesn’t make you a 4.
by messwiththebull on
Nov 3, 2008 8:56 AM CST
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he can't shoot, dribble
or guard guys away from the basket. But since he is having problems making jumpers, lets move him farther away from the basket and play him as a 3? That makes no sense. Tyrus Thomas is a 4. He rebounds like a 4. He plays weak-side defense like a 4. Nothing you can point to this season suggests that Tyrus should ever play 3.
by DangerMouse on
Nov 3, 2008 9:00 AM CST
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He should have been a 3 at the start
but it was too tantalizing to see if he could play as a 4. He has to play at the 4 on this roster so this is a moot point, but he will continue to struggle if you expect him to play like a 4, especially for anyone still clamoring for Ty to develop a post game. That ain’t happening.
by messwiththebull on
Nov 3, 2008 9:04 AM CST
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And Noah should be the 4
but then you’d ideally have a post scoring 5.
by messwiththebull on
Nov 3, 2008 9:05 AM CST
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please point to something in tyrus's game that says he is a 4
Dirk doesn’t post up either, but he plays the 4. Amare rarely posts as well, neither does Bosh. The best things Tyrus does are rebound and block shots. He has historically played better at the 4. I really don’t know why this is still an issue. He looks awful when asked to play away from the lane.
by DangerMouse on
Nov 3, 2008 9:08 AM CST
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Not much says he is a 4
rebounding and blocked shots if you want to consider those exclusive to the 4. I’m not saying Ty doesn’t have the athleticism to play the 4 because he clearly does. He doesn’t seem to have the IQ, the disposition, the commitment, nor the body to play one, however. This is just my opinion, and I think he’s a tweener rather than a natural 3 or 4 anyway.
But I don’t expect him to play like a 4. I’d expect him to play more like an AK47 or Marion type.
by messwiththebull on
Nov 3, 2008 9:17 AM CST
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The problem with Tyrus at the 4
is that physically he can’t match up. Atheltically he can, however, and more often will have the advantage in that respect, but physically Ty cannot matchup most times (not all). So for him to take advantage of the mismatch at the 4 his athleticism provides may imply to him that he needs to play more on the perimeter, to draw the defender out, rather than closer to the hoop where he may feel overpowered at times. Just a guess, I’ve never spoken to the man or his coaches.
by messwiththebull on
Nov 3, 2008 9:21 AM CST
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I agree
Tyrus cant body up a 4. Instead of banging and keep the opponent out of the lane he’d rather let him in, let him take a soft shot and then try to block it. He can jump out the building, so he uses the advantage he has.
by scottie33 on
Nov 3, 2008 10:23 AM CST
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So far it appears that TT has the skill to be a star and the brains to be
a dud. TT is struggling because of his brains as well as he is between a real 4 or a 3. He doesn’t seem to fit either.
The Bulls need a true center. Noah struggles to get tough rebounds that are contested. It appears either Noah isn’t tall enough, gets pushed out of the way or cannot jump high enough. Gray for all his limitations seems to be able to position himself and get tough rebounds. Clearly Gray is not the answer but he is big enough to take space in the middle to allow him to get rebounds Noah cannot seem to grab. We need a center that can consistently get us a strong inside defense. I wonder who is out there that can help us. Oh, if only we had someone like Tyson Chandler.
by chgobr on
Nov 3, 2008 9:29 AM CST
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On a side note,
has anyway else thought “Fuck you, Boylan!” during a game? I think it whenever there’s a substitution I don’t agree with. It must have become reflexive.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Nov 2, 2008 12:27 PM CST 0 recs
Tyrus... (and my other notes)
I want to see him devouring more souls and shooting less jumpers. We already have a team full of guys that can miss errr… shoot jumpers. He is one of the few guys that should be able to finish at the basket, seemingly, at will.
Also, as a person who was a strong advocate for the Bulls picking Beasley over Rose, I am glad Rose is shaping up nicely. I always acknowledged Rose’s high ceiling, but didn’t think he’d be this impressive this early. I thought Beasley would have been the better fit with the team we had/have. However, I am now leaning more towards doing the same thing that the Bulls did with Jordan (getting rid of most of the team and then building around him).
by Syxx on Nov 2, 2008 12:31 PM CST 0 recs
10/12 of the players on Jordan's rookie roster
were ridded of. we certainly need to do something to shape this around rose.
B.J. for three.... KABOOM!
by chibullsfan03 on
Nov 2, 2008 12:33 PM CST
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So?
11/12 players on Kirk Hinrich’s rookie roster are gone.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
by Dionysus2.0 on
Nov 2, 2008 12:37 PM CST
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Better get rid of Pax too then
What does that say about the job he’s done? He’s had lottery picks nearly every year, and yet everyone on the team is expendable except for Rose?
by Big D on
Nov 2, 2008 2:37 PM CST
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That is what getting lucky snagging a number 1 pick does for you.
Gives you a new game plan. They couldn’t have spent the last four years drafting with Rose in mind. Now that they got him they can’t be too caught up in past strategies. Lots of teams end up the position the Bulls were in last year. A lot of good assets that are not messing and lack a leader. Now we got lucky and drafted a leader. We just need to piece together the right team around him. Our guys are at least good enough to be trade assets if they don’t pan out with Rose.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on
Nov 2, 2008 3:37 PM CST
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*meshing
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on
Nov 2, 2008 3:53 PM CST
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Why can't we use Tyrus' weak side defense strengths
as a signal that’s precisely where we should try to get him involved on the offense. He will want more touches, but away from the ball are the greater number of chances with Rose in the game.
by NBA Observer on
Nov 2, 2008 2:45 PM CST
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Rose is ROY
After last night’s game…..I don’t think it’s that close.
He was having an impact on the team, leading the team, setting the tone. He took charge of the team in the third quarter with those drives to the basket.
Unbelievable player.
I’m glad we don’t have Beasley. If we had him, Beasley would put up some good numbers 15-20 points a game however, I don’t think he would try as hard as Rose. You put guys like Hinrich, Gordon, Deng around Beasley and it spells doom. If they’re missing wide-open shots with Rose, what makes you think that Beasley would get them good looks? And plus, Beasley wouldn’t try as hard with these group of guys, he’s not a leader, he would quit just like the rest of the Bulls team when they fall behind.
Rose, however, is becoming an example for this team. He is LEADING them. That’s the difference right there.
by Half-Life on Nov 2, 2008 1:06 PM CST 0 recs
I like how he's the ROY after 3 games
Perspective people, use it.
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on
Nov 2, 2008 1:13 PM CST
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he's the greatest player ever.
Cashing checks and having sex.
by MarketMaker on
Nov 2, 2008 1:57 PM CST
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The Hall of Fame 'returned to sender'
my nomination for Derrick Rose.
They’re crazy.
by NBA Observer on
Nov 2, 2008 2:47 PM CST
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Right.
Let’s not forget, not only did they play two of the worst teams in all of the NBA, they also played two of the worst-defending PG’s in all the NBA.
by tyger1147 on
Nov 2, 2008 7:10 PM CST
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I love VDN
for no other reason then his pre-game talk with Rose “They were backing off, and I know I can shoot,” Rose said. “So I was just shooting more. Before the game, [Del Negro] told me he didn’t care if I shot 100 shots. Just do whatever it takes to win.” If we still had Skiles he would have Rose playing 15min and be talking about “earned playing time”. I can live with whatever rotation he wants as long as Rose is playing. It’s just shuffling the other mediocre players around anyway.
by Bulls2391 on Nov 2, 2008 3:02 PM CST 0 recs
The Bulls rock on 2k9 btw
"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury "The Great"
by Belize on Nov 2, 2008 3:16 PM CST 1 recs
yeah...
except when it seems that everyone i play against online uses the Rockets.
by BULLieving in Miami on
Nov 3, 2008 12:01 AM CST
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Good test to see
where we stand now.. We’ll improve but need to get tested.
Cleveland is not a good team, they just have a super strong talented guy in Lebron,
Bulls and many NBA teams just don’t have a single player who is a LJ stopper. Yet, great team defense and not allowing him to get the ball in his favorite spots to drive would help. Force him to take jump shots all night.
If we try to play him man-2-man only with Deng , Noc or Thomas we will get killed.
With Thomas and Noc fouling out and Deng’s slow ankles broken continuelly.
If LJ tries to brings the ball up court, have Thabo pressure full court and force the ball out of his hands to reduce clock time for their half court sets.
Now or never for Thabo to start to be noted for defensive play and put pressure on one of the best in the NBA and disrupt his rythmn. In the half court sets Thabo would get killed if he plays him tight, but in the open court he could frustrate LJ with his long arms and lateral movement.
In half court zone defense sag off to give LJ the jump shot, but they(deng,tyrus,kirk,thabo,gooden) can’t be wimpy by being afraid to take a LJ charge.
by exult463 on Nov 2, 2008 8:00 PM CST 1 recs
God that was awful.
Asked what kind of player he expects to be in the next five years, he said: "Not a star, but like, a superstar. Something around, like, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, something like that."
by BigBenign on Nov 2, 2008 10:07 PM CST 0 recs
oops
meant to reply to paxson43 on Veektor. seriously, he was put in specifically to shut down lebron. lord.
Asked what kind of player he expects to be in the next five years, he said: "Not a star, but like, a superstar. Something around, like, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, something like that."
by BigBenign on
Nov 2, 2008 10:08 PM CST
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Just a thought...
DRose will be ROY.
Hinrich may be the frontrunner for the 6th Man of the Year Award.
If Bulls trade Nocioni away, Bulls fans will hate Nocioni even more, especially when he comes back and messes up with Luol and Tyrus’ minds (and games) and then hits a game-winning three.
Gray may suck but he sure does try.
Gooden is basketball’s Jekyll and Hyde. The next time he gets 20rebs again may be the next time Bulls play the Grizz.
Gordon looks like he’s playing for a contract.
Thabo is Bruce Bowen playing like Michael Redd.
Noah needs to understand the difference between activity and accomplishment.
Luol is still the same player he was before…with the contract of a much better player.
by PatBull on Nov 3, 2008 12:22 AM CST 1 recs
LOL
I love the “I’m gonna tell it like it is with regard to every Bull in one line” post. [TRUTH ABOUT ROSE]. Next paragraph. [TRUTH ABOUT HINRICH]. Next paragraph. This has gotta be one of the classic forms of sports blogging.
Every one of them is pretty much spot-on, too – except the last one. Luol hasn’t been the same player. He’s trying to be the first-option Luol everyone wanted him to be, including myself.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Nov 3, 2008 6:52 AM CST 0 recs
ty...
…needs to shot attempting so many jump shots. what the hell is going on??!! and noah needs to start. rose is amazing, the rest are terrible so far, though I think Lu and Noah will be good as the year progresses.
by bullsfaninbigapple on Nov 3, 2008 8:11 AM CST 0 recs
I'm in full "Who works with Rose"mode all of the time
To be completely honest, the wins and the losses don’t bother me too much. I don’t care whether or not they make the playoffs (it would save me money if they didn’t, but I also don’t care about another lottery pick per se). I just want to know if anyone is going to be a good fit with Rose in a couple of years when he’s the best PG in the East. So far, it’s all inconclusive. Odds are, Deng is the only certainty.
I’m disappointed in Tyrus and Noah. I don’t think Hinrich is going to work here long term, and I’m unsure about Gordon. But it’s only 3 games, and I’m sure I’ll have more opinions the more I see them in person.
by Moses Taylor on Nov 3, 2008 10:56 AM CST 0 recs
I am curious.
What has Deng done so far to solidify himself in the “certainty” camp for Rose’s future team?
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on
Nov 3, 2008 12:18 PM CST
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Deng seems to be the one player
with enough cache that he could get us another team’s star. At least if you throw in other players and salary cap relief.
by CJ Bulls on
Nov 3, 2008 12:21 PM CST
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This is the Luol I didn't want to resign at $11m per
let’s hope we see the Luol that we did want to resign at that price. Not sure if I know what he looks like.
by messwiththebull on
Nov 3, 2008 12:27 PM CST
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cashed a couple huge checks :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Nov 3, 2008 1:00 PM CST
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Yeah
I guess I was a little unclear. I think Deng’s extension means he’s going to be on the team. I could be wrong, he hasn’t played particularly well so far. But without a doubt, everyone else is available.
by Moses Taylor on
Nov 3, 2008 4:33 PM CST
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scoring
I hoped to see them run more, but I cannot see them hitting the century mark again for the 3rd straight days because the offense just doesn’t flow right now.
by Jesse07 on Nov 3, 2008 2:31 PM CST 0 recs
Some changes from years past.
Aside from the uncertainty of our core players’ bad play raising it’s ugly head again this year (both on the defensive end and in their shooting percentage) We now have what looks to be like a take over the game type player in Derrick Rose. If we gauge last years record as a worst case scenario, with all the distractions, injuries and bonehead coaching decisions, Then just a steady coaching staff and Derrick Rose, should be good for at least 10 more wins. No?
We also have a full training camp with Gooden, Tyrus and Noah in the Defensive Rotation. Given that 2 years ago, when Ben Wallace was still alive and PJ Brown roamed the inside paint, we had a top defense, This new core, should at least improve from last years topsy turvy rotations (especially for tyrus). There has also got to be something to this one year older business…
The new Running Style offense is a 180 departure with derrick rose at the helm from Hinrich’s dribble, dribble, dribble, pass, dribble, dribble dribble, pass offense.
Our Guard Rotation is at a Huge upgrade if you consider that
1. Derrick Rose is our new Hinrich (VERY big upgrade)
2. Hinrich is our new Duhon (ALMOST as big an upgrade)
3. waaaay below but still there is Thabo’s having more experience as well as working better in the new running style offense.
This team has a lot of talent and proved it with 3 playoff bound season’s in a row. With a top player like Derrick Rose at the helm, I believe that we now belong in the upper half of the NBA elite.
by gman2849 on Nov 3, 2008 4:00 PM CST 0 recs










