3 Team Trade Idea (NY, LAC & CHI)
by Unrealcity on Nov 17, 2008 10:03 AM CST
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PrintI have heard people recently complain about trades that they thought were not possible and they included Chris Kaman as an example. But this trade actually seems possible to me. I'm not just throwing it out there because we all want a good big man. So here is the Trade Machine link.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=1017~356~3032~312~1982&teams=12~18~18~4~4&te=&cash=
Clippers
Zach Randolph
Knicks
Tyrus Thomas
Larry Hughes
Bulls
Chris Kaman
Jason Hart
LAC
The Clippers have shown interest in Randolph multiple times and now that it is apparent that they don't have what they thought they had with their current roster, they are even more interested in getting a proven scorer. They have a center in Camby that could play defense next to Zach and Kaman's slow start is making them contemplate this idea. Jason Hart is a throw-in to make the salaries work. Almost everone else has some sort of trade restriction and they don't have time to wait until the trade deadline.
NY
Everyone knows that NY is trying to shed salary for 2010. Zach has played well here at the beginning of the year and so his trade value is high. Now is the best time to move him. They would get a young big (Top 4 pick) with tons of athleticism who at worst only has two years left on his contract in TT. At best, he adds some muscle, learns to finish (and run the court) and becomes D'Antoni's new Marion. And Hughes' salary is gone by 2010! That's all he is good for.
CHI
We get a big with post skills and lose Hughes? Too good to be true? Maybe. But I think this trade actually works and right now, at least has the possibility of happening.
PG Rose - 40 / Lindsey Hunter - 8
SG Gordon - 38 / Thabo - 10
SF Deng - 38 / Nocioni - 7 / Thabo - 3
PF Gooden - 24 / Nocioni - 14 / Noah -10
C Kaman - 35 / Noah - 10 / Gray - 3
When Kirk comes back this changes obviously, but this is decent for now.
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This is certainly reasonable
though I still don’t think Kaman is that great, and it should be a red flag if the Clippers are willing to take Randolph instead.
Also…there’s the simultaneous issue of the Bulls desire to give up on Thomas, and the Knicks value of him as a prospect.
In your rotation, they’d likely cut Hunter and Hart would be the (bad) backup pg. I’d also start Noah ahead of Gooden…though Noah’s offensive game will struggle having to give inside space to Kaman. (Heck, maybe have Noah instead of Tyrus in the deal then?)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 17, 2008 10:40 AM CST reply actions
Why would it be a red flag.
Randolph is the better player on the court. He can get them 20/10 every night. He is like Elton Brand 2.0.
Additionally, Randolph is a better fit next to Marcus Camby, the guy they traded for last summer.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 17, 2008 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
Because he's a certifiable team cancer?
And Mike Dunleavy is one of the most rigid coaches in the league. I don’t smell great success there.
by Ozzie Montana on Nov 17, 2008 8:22 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not giving up on TT.
I put TT in there because I think he has value as a prospect. You have to give something up to get something and I think Kaman would be better than Miller. The reason being that I think Brad is going to fall off really soon on the production end where as Kaman is still young at 26.
If you really still like Thomas,
Then why not just throw Gooden into the deal, I will not give up on Noah for Kaman, at this point Thomas looks to be too stupid to ever become a player. You can’t teach stupid, or something like that.
To add fuel to your fire.
Bergen News reports Clips like Randolph and are down on Kaman.
Regarding the OP idea, I would rather send Noah to NY than Thomas, because Thomas is a better fit next to Kaman…
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
Noah for Tyrus
I would be in favor of switching TT and Noah in this deal, but I don’t think that is realistic. The Knicks would want something in return for losing a player that is working in the new system besides just 2010 money. But if we could switch, I would have no problem putting Noah in the deal for Tyrus.
The only place that Thomas is a better fit is
next to Eddie Robinson in the crack smoking line. The guy is simply too stupid as a human being to even be a basketball player, that is really stupid.
Err ...
What examples of off-court behavior make him stupid as a human being?
I mean, he has low basketball IQ, but to flat-out call the guy an idiot is really unwarranted.
His pure stupidity
is exemplified by his complete inability to understand any fundamentals of the game of basketball. If you are too stupid to play basketball, you are a really stupid human being. You don’t have to have off court behaviour issues to qualify as a stupid human being.
All you have to do is listen to most of these guys give an interview and you can pretty much figure out how stupid most of them are. Eddie Curry was nearly a neanderthal, Ben Gordon doesn’t exactly reak of intelligence when he speaks, or on the court. In terms of lack of intelligence, Thomas is in their class. Curry is a bust due to lack of intelligence and lack of any competitive drive. Gordon is an awful player in every aspect of the game, except shooting which is not a product of knowledge of the game. Thomas sucks at everything that doesn’t require jumping, and is not particularly great at many things that do.
Being stupid does not make you a bad human being, and does not require repugnant behaviour,on or off the court. Thomas, Gordon, and Curry might be nice warm hearted upstanding citizens. I guarentee that Noah is smarter than any of them, yet he is a bit of a flake/bonehead off the court.
If you are too dumb to play a sport, especially when you are gifted enough athletically to do so at the highest levels, then you are absolutely a dumb human being. You could have a high basketball IQ, but not be particularly intelligent otherwise. However, you cannot be a reasonably intelligent person in regular life and not have a high basketball IQ if you have played basketball all of your life. It isn’t that difficult of a game, especially when it is the only thing that you have done since at least junior high.
Thomas is dumb even for a basketball player. You don’t have to be a smart human being to be a smart basketball player. Just look at his face as he interacts with his coaches and other players, he isn’t listening or learning, his brain is just not engaged. This is the primary reason that he will end up bding a bust, add in a lack of fire in his belly and the writing is on the wall. No unwarranted insult, just a plain statement of the obvoius.
Jordan and even Rodman are not geniuses off the court, but they certainly were on the court. Niether of them reached the pinacle of thier professions by shear athletic ability alone. The only reason that Jordan knew he could tolerate Rodman on this team was because he knew that Rodman would try every bit as hard as Jordan did, and that Rodman was actually a known student of the game, despite being a raving lunatic and borderline a-hole off the court. Look no further than Rodman to dispell your theory of off court incidents being required to verify stupidity.
Your thought process here almost makes me question your….Well, lets not go there
by BigWay on Nov 18, 2008 4:24 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Wow.
First of all, you can have an opinion about how a player plays or even his basketball IQ without insulting the person as a human being. I think this entire post is uncalled for. And you can’t gather how intelligent Ben Gordon is from a few clips in an interview after a game or practice. He is just sort of soft spoken, not unintelligent. And you are way off base in regards to Jordan and Rodman. My favorite player is Scottie, but Michael and Dennis are more intelligent. Jordan is a marketing genius, even if he is not a great talent evaluator. And Dennis has everybody fooled with his act. His another soft spoken dude at heart that is very intelligent and shy and puts on this character of “Rodman” just to mess with people. But he played the part for so long that eventually, there was no Dennis left, just the persona, but he is very intelligent. But please don’t say that because you are one of the top 200 players of basketball in the world, but not in the top 50, you are and idiot. It’s not like TT can’t play. He just has a hard time against the 50 greatest bball players out of the 6 billion on this planet. I would say that is knowing how to play ball pretty well. But regardless, just because someone can’t play a sport doesn’t mean they are an idiot.
Are there any stupid people playing sports
If so is it an insult to state the obvious.
your posts always suck
stop making them suck so hard.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 18, 2008 8:09 AM CST up reply actions
Not very friendly,
Maybe your just sarcastic, or a New Yorker.
wow
it must suck trying to call someone else stupid, when YOU’RE too stupid to know how to spell Eddy Curry correctly.
You’re so stupid…you stupid guy…
by NormVanBeer on Nov 18, 2008 10:18 AM CST up reply actions
this whole thing is stupid...
but i agree….TT does indeed look like a stupid person…….he just does…….. “Just look at his face as he interacts with his coaches and other players, he isn’t listening or learning, his brain is just not engaged.”<—- this is very true….
Although you mince words quite like a butcher
a feeling of disdain towards TT and BG seeps through… ;)
I agree with you to a point. There are fundamentals that TT should have learned in junior high that he still struggles with and that makes you really question whether he will ever be able to play proper basketball. ( Which really shouldn’t take that much brainpower…)
When it comes to BG I remember an interview he did while injured last year (Think it was a thumb…) When asked by a reporter the pretty standard question what it felt like watching his team struggle without him he answered this: “It’s boring” BORING!? Seriously?? To think this is one thing, (pretty telling in itself) but to actually TELL a TV-reporter?? Huh?
Why does it take you so many words to say the same thing over and over again?
by Ozzie Montana on Nov 18, 2008 11:31 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe this will work for you
Stupid is as Stupid does, thanks Forest
Sick racism man.
Seriously.
We black people always smoke crack.
Would you have said that about Matt Harpring?
Heh, are you Black Irish? :)
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Nov 20, 2008 5:04 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Is there any reason that movie gets no credit for inspiring deadwood?
De gustibus non est disputandum
No, but smoking crack
certainly has a deliterious effect on whatever native intelligence you might have. Not that any of you geniuses have any idea what I just said. If Harpring had the same look on his face all the time as Thomas does, I might suspect that he is smoking crack too.
Obama is now President elect
You can’t use racism as an excuse anymore.
It would still seem useable in a specific instance of obviously racist behavior
Not sure that smoking crack qualifies, but still.
We have come a long way in this country though. I picture the average crack smoker to just as likely be a lower class white as a lower class black. Now that’s change you can believe in.
De gustibus non est disputandum
is that lower class white person
posting on BlogABull? That’s how I envision all the mentally hampered nowadays.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 21, 2008 9:51 AM CST up reply actions
not a bad idea
well done for putting something up that is reasonable
by DartmouthCubsFan on Nov 17, 2008 10:44 AM CST reply actions
A very reasonable trade
But I think the Bulls will get creamed. D’Antoni I think would be the perfect coach to get the most out of Tyrus THomas….and I’d hate of all teams to see Thomas on the Knicks….
But it is reasonable and addresses a need.
I’m so conflicted over trading Tyrus….
No conflicts with me
Bulls should look into getting whatever they can for Tyrus.
by RogersPark Kris on Nov 17, 2008 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
Maybe to any team
But the Knicks…..
I still have high hopes ont he 22 yr old, even if he keeps proving me wrong every time….
I have always had a problem with this type of notion.
Who cares if the other team does well with the trade. And who cares if it is The (insert the team you hate). The question should be, does it help The Bulls? The only caveat I would give is that you don’t want to help the other team MORE than you help yourself obviously. But basically I am talking about the whole, don’t trade in the same conference / division thing we hear all the time. Does it make us better? Then do it.
I absolutely agree with you on that point.
It doesn’t matter how the departed players fare, at least in the evaluation of that trade.
What would matter is if Tyrus (or whoever) did really well, then it questions the scouting/developing facet of the organization as a whole.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 17, 2008 11:33 AM CST up reply actions
Well it definately
should matter on how the departed players fare in trade evaluations….because if suddenly Tyrus is a monster on of all teams the Knicks, and we’re left with a top 10 C, who’s only top 10 becasue the C position is at an all time low….that might be tough to swallow…..
Plus perhaps this trade is only for the betterment of this year and maybe next year…..
I just wish I could get a read on Tyrus. It’s early, like Belize said, maybe trade deadline I’d change my ways. 22 yr old Tyrus with all his raw skills still will have trade potential all over him through this season…..especially after every good game he has.
I don't know if it does help the Bulls
Chris Kaman has been solid one year, horrible the next year, mediocre the next year, looking great the last year and so far “eh”….
There’s a reason he’s on the block and a reason his team’s haven’t done much….
I like him, but maybe not in an instance where the coach who does fabulous jobs coaching ridiculously athletic players who also happens to coach my least favorite team, gets his hands on our future bright spot/enigma that is Tyrus THomas….
Now if we did a trade where the Knicks got Thomas and we ended up with say Emeka Okafor (lock down defender who’s at least always consistent but plays on a bad team and one who would fit our needs here as a Wallace type, but one who can still score and might still improve)…..or of course much better, that’s a different story.
But I don’t know if I want to double whammy of giving up on Tyrus to get a guy like Kaman, when Kaman’s been so inconsistent in his career and is older and much more overpaid. I know Kaman’s a starter qualtiy player (Tyrus is not yet and who knows might never be, that’s the risk), but I don’t know…..throw in Noah and Thabo and I like it more….
like your thoughts on Okafor, not so much Thabo and Noah
I suggested trading Deng for him this past summer. However, Okafor is best suited as a power forward, which is where I would play him on the Bulls. If we could get Okafor for Thomas and whatever at this point I would flip for it. Can’t see Charlotte doing anything with Okafor now that they’ve actually signed him.
Maybe we could swindle them out of Okafor and Wallace for Deng and Thomas. I love Wallace’s agressiveness, especially when compared to Deng’s ground pounding head down game. Maybe they want one of our extra guards, Hinrich/Gordon. Michael and Larry haven’t been too bright lately when it comes to personel matters, so who knows.
As for Thabo and Noah, I like them both better than Thomas right now. I think Thomas is just a tease and a prayer. His brain, or lack there of, will ultimately lead him down the path of the Stromile Swift’s etc.
It's still
so freaking early on Tyrus Thomas. He was essentially buried in th epast, played very well for us for 9 straight games this post season and the first game of the year (or at least the last 6-8 games until the 2nd game of the year).
He is only 22, and while yeah he makes plenty of bone headed plays, he can do things when he does play his game that few can do.
It’s hard. He’s nipping on bust, but given the age, it’s still a good 4-5 years too soon before that tag is justified.
wow, agree!
I think that is a fabulous perception. The Bulls should make the trades that will make the Bulls better. Once a front office is making trades while worrying about the outcome for the other teams it loses grasp on the actual goal. Great point. Very logicical.
About the trade…great idea. I think they need Kaman, and I’m ready for the Bulls to give up on Tyrus. My two problems with the trade are:
1) M’Antoni wants Curry gone. If Randolph gets shipped away, the Knicks lose the active presence inside. Unfortunately, I see the Knicks making a deal that involved Curry, not Randolph.
2) Trading away Hughes will make the backcourt REAL shallow and small. I’m torn here, bc Hinrich is injured.
by chicago-homesick-blues on Nov 18, 2008 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
Thabo
Sef can’t play any worse than Hughes has. He is certainly more durable. He takes less shots, especially bad jump shots. And at this point in their careers, I think Thabo is also a better defender. So we not only lose a cancer in Hughes (and a terrible contract), but Thabo can get some more minutes and a chance to prove he is a back-up long term.
by Unrealcity on Nov 19, 2008 2:36 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Meh
If we get someone that instantly produces, then whatever. Trading Chandler was bad because he instantly produced and we got a year of PJ Brown and 2 years of Adrian Griffin out of it.
by Ozzie Montana on Nov 17, 2008 8:23 PM CST up reply actions
But without
Those 2 years of Adrian Griffin (really a year and a half) these blog complaints wouldn’t have been so much fun, and we would never have heard of the Noah player’s suspension bs.
Again, if you are still in love with Thomas
Just substitue Gooden for Thomas. Hughes and Gooden are the first two guys that I want to dump ASAP anyway. I would do Hughes and Gooden for Kaman, in fact earlier I proposed Hughes and Gooden for Randolph, but Kaman might be a better fit, especially if he plays the way he plays against the Bulls.
Against the Bulls almost every big play well, because our big suck
But between having a good big and not having anyone, I would like to get Kaman
http://comunidadebulleana.blogspot.com/ - Comunidade Bulleana (O blog dos Bulls em Portugal)
Not bad
id give TT a couple more games, but not bad
"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury's Head Tattoo
Well, it would definitely help us,
though it would destroy my hopes for 2010. Seems realistic and helpful for all teams. A damn good trade.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Good proposal
you’ve been rec’d
"He's not scared to take that shot," Rose said. "That's Larry. No matter what, I don't need to remind him to shoot. He's willing to shoot any time."
I don't know if you guys read that
But, apparently, the Bulls are one of the teams that are interested in Randolph… Maybe they wanto to do something like Unrealcity sugested
http://comunidadebulleana.blogspot.com/ - Comunidade Bulleana (O blog dos Bulls em Portugal)
I like the cut of your gib
I go back and forth on who I’d rather deal: Tyrus or Noah.
by messwiththebull on Nov 17, 2008 8:08 PM CST reply actions
I'd deal Noah
and lower my expectations for Tyrus. Overall he has the potential to bring more to the table.
by messwiththebull on Nov 17, 2008 8:16 PM CST up reply actions
Ditto on going back and forth,
but in the end I’d rather keep Thomas. I like the combination of K’s man-to-man defense with Ty’s weakside blocks. Additionally, T2 at least has a chance of developing an outside shot to pair with Kaman’s back-to-the-basket game.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Kaman
Kaman is a good post player. He would fit in great with this bulls team. Give us exactly what we need a post presence and a big guy to clot the lane.
by Diehard BullsFan on Nov 17, 2008 8:24 PM CST reply actions
You Noah haters are clueless
Noah has a place in the NBA. Thomas appears to be too stupid to play basketball, and despite the occassional tease will never actualize his talent. Ask any coach or scout, if given the choice between raw athletic ability with no brains and no heart, and someone who gives a shit and actually gets the game, but isn’t a world class athlete, they go for the second guy everytime. Contrary to popular belief, Jordan wasn’t the best because of his athletic ability.
by BigWay on Nov 18, 2008 12:09 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Agree; rec
That is overall, I agree. I wouldn’t want to give up on Tyrus, but there’s no question that Noah’s place in this league is set in stone, because we’ve seen what kind of player he is, and we’ve seen similar players have long and productive careers. Dennis Rodman, Ben Wallace, Tyson Chandler and Marcus Camby all play a similar role. Of course, they do it at a very high level, and at this point Noah first has to figure out how to follow directions so he can stay on the court.
Tyrus has loads of athetic potential but has not shown us whether he can play hard and have heart. James “Flight” White was one of the most athletic players to play college ball in recent years, and I don’t think he’s even in the league at this point. Stromile Swift has shown flashes of potential, but he’s essentially been relegated to “scrub” level duties.
And Jordan was hypercompetitive, but he was also pretty much the best athlete of his time. I mean, some other people came close, like maybe Dominique or Clyde, but still, the man was so much better physically than everyone else. So it’s hard to separate that from his hypercompetitiveness.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
But Tyrus is what Noah isn't
according to your own description. Tyrus busted his ass in the offseason, Noah has been described (perhaps by himself) as not having worked much on his game. Tyrus came to camp in shape, Noah did not. Tyrus spent his summer at IMG, Noah spent it sipping Hennessey and smoking joints. Sure, there is more to both stories, but one player looks committed to pursuing greatness, the other looks to content to continue on with his already established role of being an energy guy and perhaps not much more.
by messwiththebull on Nov 18, 2008 7:50 AM CST up reply actions
Noah needs an offensive partner in the front court
Noah is a work man, and for him to do his business, he needs to play with an offensively strong power forward. He is a reliable player, but just not offensively reliable.
Noah is a scrub, a worm, a workman. (meant in a good way.) He is (or can be) the type of player grouped among Rodman, Bowen, or Ben Wallace. Rodman, Bowen, and Wallace were very effective players (in their upside), but needed offensively strong partners like Pippen, Robinson, Tim Duncan, R. Wallace to make the team successful.
by chicago-homesick-blues on Nov 18, 2008 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
I want to agree with you.
But Gooden, although not great, is a good offensive PF and Noah has looked terrible next to him this year. I think Noah is a player willing to do the dirty work, but not a committed basketball player. Where as he will work hard during the game, he doesn’t in the off season. He needed to bulk up. Instead, he chilled. He doesn’t have the fire to get better. Just the fire to try hard on the court. Which is nice, but not enough.
Solid Post
Actually makes sense for all teams involved, not usually the case in these fan posts. Personally, I suggested a Hughes and Gooden for Randolph trade since the Randolph stories first hit the market.
I would prefer to include Gooden in any deal, so I would give the Knicks their choice of Thomas or Gooden. Who knows Thomas might do something under D’Antoni, even though he appears to be impervious to coaching, due to his shear stupidity.
I’ve scene/had enough of Thomas this season to go for Hughes and Thomas for Kaman, or straight up for Randolph. In either case, we should engage both the Knicks and Clippers to see if something is doable.
Not a huge Kaman fan, however, he does seem to play well against the Bulls. I guess that Kaman/Noah is better than Noah/Gray. Kaman, unlike Thomas at least appears to have a functioning brain and beating heart.
The biggest negative for the Bulls, and it is probably the biggest negative in this deal, is that we are taking on 2 more years at about $12 million per in Kaman than we are giving up in Hughes. We might regret this, big time come the summer of 2010, when we could be major players to get one of the big 3 or 4(if not Lebron, then Wade, Bosh or Amare) to pair with Rose, who should be an established star/superstar by then
For the Knicks it is a near no brainer(with 2010 being the only goal) and the Clippers get a player who is a better match for Camby and has one less year on his contract than Kaman, so for them the deal is a maybe/probably.
In the end, I think that the Bulls would be the team not willing to do this deal because of these cap considerations, but getting rid of Hughes and Gooden in one fell swoop would be very enticing to me, but probably not to Paxson.
OK, We get it
You think Thomas is a dolt and isn’t worth the rubber in his sneakers.
You can now stop figuring out 20 ways to say the exact same thing in 20 times in one thread…
--Torch
by torch on Nov 18, 2008 6:42 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
surely one who can comment on the stupidity of someone they've never met
can handle the differences between “shear” and “sheer”, or “scene” and “seen”
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 18, 2008 8:12 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
lol....good catch....lol
but you have to admit..TT does look like a dumbass…i would be very surprised if he amounted to anything more than what he is now…..a player who can jump..very high…..i gave up on him the minute i saw him play…. it’s like his actions have no real intention. he just does shit for the hell of it.. I feel that it is due to his lack of intelligence. IMO
they gave up on tyson chandler too soon.
i think T-Time needs another 2-4 seasons before he finds his way. Eventually he will realise time is running out and will be forced to become a student of the game in order to move forwards. Iam in favour of bringing Kaman In and loosing Larry Hughes. Its a hard choice to go with TT or Noah. Maybe try for gooden first.
They didn't give up on Tyson to soon.
As Sam Smith has written many times, Tyson was under too much pressure in Chicago. He was the guy traded for Elton Brand. You can say all you want about a guy making millions of dollars and how they should be able to handle the pressure, but they are only human. Amazingly tall and athletic, but human. Often times, certain guys need either a trade to wake them up or they just blossom under a different system or with a new player (i.e. Chris Paul). There is no indication that Tyson would be doing what he is in NO if he were still with the Bulls. Maybe with Rose, but nobody saw that coming. Everyone was on board with moving Tyson at the time, so move on.
tyson's numbers
aren’t that much better than his best season as a bull – he’s only managed to stay on the floor longer by reducing his foul rate. that was his biggest improvement.
but yes, tyson would never have become what he is now in chicago.
Sam Smith commented yesterday about my porposed trade for Kaman. Here is what he had to say.
Sam: I kind of like this one. The Knicks want to get rid of Randolph, and I don’t want him, but I might take a shot at Kaman. He’s a bit goofy, but he can play inside and has size. And I continue to hear the Clippers will move him, and if things continue badly for them, I can see a shakeup of sorts. Randolph should fit reasonably well with Camby, and I know Mike D’Antoni liked Tyrus at one point. As for now, I’m not sure. But what the heck. I’d make a run at it.
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