Anatomy of a contender: A look at adjusted +/- stats
[From the FanPosts. This was actually posted a couple days ago, but I wanted to get some spotlight on it in between games. -ed.]
Adjusted plus-minus ratings are listed on 82games.com for 2007-08 and 2006-07. Basically, these ratings are estimates of what each player individually contributed to his team’s points scored and points allowed per 100 possessions over the course of the season. The ratings are derived from statistical modeling to adjust for the effects of teammates and isolate each individual’s performance. Though the method provides only estimates and should not be considered to provide any sort of definitive ranking of players, in my opinion it provides the most useful player evaluation tool that I have seen.
I am going to attempt to analyze these ratings to draw conclusions about the distribution of talent in the NBA, the characteristics of a contending team, and the current and future prospects of the Bulls. This is much more theory than fact, so feel free to be critical.
League Distribution of Player Performance
Each year there are only a few players who approach or exceed +10 points per 100 possessions. Among players who get major minutes, there are only a few worse than -5 points per 100 possessions. Given this range, I divided player performance into tiers, with each tier spanning 2 points. Below is a chart of the tiers, the symbols I use to denote them, the number of NBA players that fall within each tier in a typical season, and the corresponding label for players in each tier according to the structure of the league:
|
Adj + / - |
Symbol |
# of Players |
Label |
|
9 & Above |
+ + + + + |
3 |
MVP |
|
7 to 9 |
+ + + + |
7 |
All-NBA |
|
5 to 7 |
+ + + |
15 |
All-Star |
|
3 to 5 |
+ + |
25 |
Near All-Star |
|
1 to 3 |
+ |
40 |
Avg Starter |
|
-1 to 1 |
Even |
75 |
Fringe Starter/ Sixth Man |
|
-3 to -1 |
- |
75 |
Bench Play |
|
-5 to -3 |
- - |
50 |
Bench Sit |
|
Below -5 |
- - - |
70 |
Scrub |
Some observations:
In each of the past 2 years, the top 3 players in the league have been Kevin Garnett, LeBron James, and Tim Duncan. They have all averaged better than a +9 over that span, while no other player has reached that level in either season. At lower levels, there is less consistency in terms of which players meet the standard, but you will find roughly the same number of players on a given tier both years and a great deal of overlap. Kobe, Paul Pierce, and Baron Davis were at the All-NBA level both years, and Ginobili, Nowitzki, Nash, and Kidd came close.
The distribution of performance is heavily bunched in the average to slightly below average range, with over 40% of the league’s players qualifying as “Even” or “-”.
Only 90 players are meaningfully above average, or 3 per team. The mean of these players is “+ +”, or in other words, the top 3 players on an average team sum to “+ + + + + +” (equal to approximately +12 points per 100 possessions).
The tier sizes correspond well with the organization of a roster. There are 240 players “-” or better, or 8 per team, so a franchise that hopes to contend should be able to construct an 8-man rotation with no one below that level.
Relationship between Player Performance and Team Success
There are two aspects of team success: regular season and postseason. In terms of the regular season, I find that summing the ratings of a team’s basic 8-man rotation gives a pretty good indication of its standing. This is very inexact, and it assumes that the lesser players will cancel out or not play enough meaningful minutes to make much of a difference (it seems more accurate than factoring them in as equals and much quicker and easier than weighing everyone by playing time). In terms of the “+” and “-” symbols I use above to signify 2 points per 100 possessions, here is the breakdown:
|
Team Success |
Net “+” total (8-man rotation) |
|
Elite (60+ wins) |
9-12 |
|
Contender (top-4) |
5-8 |
|
Bubble (low seed / out) |
0-4 |
|
Failure (clear lottery) |
Negative |
Postseason success is a little different. The rotation gets shorter, and a team can’t make up for a lack of stars by having great depth. This relates to why the Bulls of a couple years ago never really had a chance. They may have been nominal contenders, with lots of average and somewhat above average players summing to the 5-8 range, but there’s a second component to winning a title. Teams that are serious threats to win it all tend to have a top 2 summing to at least 7. According to the distribution, this means a top 3 player (MVP) and a top 50 (Near All-Star) or top 10 player (All-NBA) and a top 25 (All-Star). Each of the teams reaching the Finals in the past 2 years has met this standard.
Bulls Roster by Adjusted Plus-Minus
|
|
Adjusted + / - |
|||
|
|
2007-08 |
2006-07 |
||
|
Player |
Offense |
Defense |
Overall |
Overall |
|
Deng, Luol |
4.52 |
0.43 |
4.95 |
5.58 |
|
Noah, Joakim |
-0.60 |
2.71 |
2.10 |
N/A |
|
Thomas, Tyrus |
-1.38 |
2.21 |
0.83 |
0.23 |
|
Sefolosha, Thabo |
-3.24 |
2.54 |
-0.70 |
-0.01 |
|
Hinrich, Kirk |
-1.98 |
1.26 |
-0.72 |
-0.62 |
|
Gray, Aaron |
0.64 |
-1.61 |
-0.97 |
N/A |
|
Nocioni, Andres |
1.02 |
-2.17 |
-1.15 |
-2.72 |
|
Gordon, Ben |
0.10 |
-3.47 |
-3.37 |
3.03 |
|
Gooden, Drew |
-2.31 |
-1.36 |
-3.67 |
-3.96 |
|
Hughes, Larry |
-1.06 |
-2.77 |
-3.83 |
-3.82 |
Given these numbers, here’s what I think we can reasonably expect from each player for the rest of the season:
(Note: I tried to base my expectations on approximately 50% 2007-08 figures, 25% 2006-07 figures, and 25% subjective evaluation.)
PG:
Rose (+ +): + + + / -
Hinrich (Even): - / +
I have no stats to go on for Rose, so his portion is nothing more than an educated guess. A typical PG is a couple notches better offensively than defensively (the reverse is true for C), meaning that a standard line for the position would be “(Even): + / -”. I’m projecting Rose to play average PG defense this season and be a few points better than average offensively.
Hinrich won’t play for awhile, but when healthy, he’s one of the few guys at his position to be appreciably above average on defense. That’s roughly cancelled out by his play on the other end of the floor, making him a low-end starter or sixth man type.
SG:
Gordon (Even): + + / - -
Thabo (-): - - - / + +
Hughes (- -): - / -
Gordon is the toughest guy to project. He rated very well two years ago and very poorly last year. I think we can expect him to be quite good offensively and equally bad defensively, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he matches or even exceeds the level of a typical starter. However, I don’t think he could realistically ever reach an All-Star level. His upside is somewhat limited by his size at SG, meaning that he is unlikely to be better than a minus defensively no matter how much effort he exerts.
I have always thought that Thabo is terrible, and that his defensive reputation exceeds his performance. Now I think I’ve been wrong. He’s probably subpar overall, but his defense really does seem to be excellent. He should be in the rotation, coming off the bench.
Hughes is very bad. He’s bad offensively, and he’s bad defensively. I hope he doesn’t play meaningful minutes.
SF:
Deng (+ +): + + / Even
Noc (-): + / - -
Deng has had a poor start to the season, but he’s been by far the team’s best player by this metric each of the past two years. I think he’ll eventually figure out how to play best with Rose, and he should be able to meet this estimate going forward.
Unlike Deng, Noc has looked good so far. He’s meshed well with Rose and has certainly given a boost to the offense. He still can’t play defense, though, so I think his ceiling is as a fringe starter or sixth man. I only feel comfortable projecting him as a rotation player off the bench, since that seems to have been his performance level in the recent past.
PF:
Tyrus (Even): - - / + +
Gooden (-): Even / -
Tyrus has looked horrendous on offense most of the time thus far, and in the last game he even looked bad defensively. However, he’s been approximately average in both of his seasons in the league thus far, so that’s how I’ll project him. Hopefully he can get it back into his head only to sell out for the block on help defense and stand his ground while playing on the ball.
I’m amazed at the extent to which many people are praising Gooden based on a few strong games. Yes, he’s a much better shooter than the other big men and he’s gotten off to a hot start, but he doesn’t have a good track record. In fact, by adjusted plus-minus, he’s been downright Hughesian the past two years. Maybe he’ll drastically exceed my expectations all season—it is a contract year—but I’m not yet a believer.
Centers:
Noah (Even): - / +
Gray (-): Even / -
These guys only have a year of stats to consider, so the numbers on them probably shouldn’t carry as much weight.
Noah looks like a typical starting C by the numbers, but I’ll downgrade him a bit. He appears to be behind in terms of preparation this year, and I want to see another year of data before expecting him to play to that level.
My opinion of Gray mirrors my thoughts on Thabo. He looks clumsy and ineffective, but if the numbers are any indication, he might actually be a suitable backup C. In other words, I’m now open to the idea that he could deserve some non-trivial amount of playing time. That’s not exactly a ringing endorsement, but it’s better than I imagined.
What the Bulls Need to Contend
Right now, the Bulls 8-man rotation looks to be:
Rose (+ +)
Gordon (Even)
Deng (+ +)
Tyrus (Even)
Gooden (-)
Noc (-)
Noah (Even)
Thabo (-) OR Hughes (- -) -> Hinrich (Even) when healthy
That puts the team at 0-1 with Hinrich out, or low bubble status (outside shot at the playoffs). In addition, the Bulls don’t have anyone I’m willing to project to an All-Star level this year, with only 2 above-average players summing to + + + +. If the Bulls are going to seriously contend in the future, they need major improvement at the top. Here are my most likely scenarios for how the Bulls can get there:
- Rose + Deng: Rose develops into a top 10 player and Deng becomes a consistent top 25 guy. Clearly the most obvious way for the Bulls to improve is for Rose to become an elite player. Deng is the only other guy on the current roster that I reasonably see as top 25. He won’t dominate a game, but he could be very effective on both ends of the floor.
- FA + Rose: The Bulls add a top 10 player from the 2010 free agent class. Rose is at least a top 25 player.
- Rose + Trade: Rose becomes a top 10 player and the Bulls trade expiring contracts and/or cheap young players for a top 25 guy on a rebuilding team.
- Rose: Rose develops into a top 3 player. The Bulls should be able to pair him with a top 50 guy at the very least, whether that guy is someone currently on the roster or not.
- FA + Deng: Just like scenario 2 except that Deng is the best player on the existing team. This probably would mean that Rose has injury problems. I hope this isn’t what the Bulls need to bank on.
FanPosts are user-created posts from the BlogABull community, and are to be treated as the opinions and views of that particular user, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.
64 comments
|
23 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I'm officially on the Rashad McCants bandwagon now.
I got tired of challenging those who said “Get rid of Gordon! It’s easy to get someone better!”, to go find some actual players that are under-26, good outside shooters and generally not considered a franchise cornerstone.
I don’t think he’s the answer to any significant question (and it may be a one-year anomaly), and not in any way a replacement for Gordon. However, if the Bulls can’t come to terms with Gordon in the off-season, I think McCants (a RFA) is someone they need to pursue.
Agreed. And you'd have to think he'd come at a semi-decent price, right?
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Well, restricted means it's never too nice.
If it’s too good, Minnesota will pay it. Unless they’re convinced he’s expendable w/ Brewer, Miller, telfair, etc.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
wow
very nice presentation.
Thabo Sefolosha: His last name sounds like a disease, and his ballgame IS one.
Great post
Thanks for an excellent post. I appreciated the analysis and agree with the vast majority of it. Nice work and thanks.
Nice
On your rating groups, I’d offer one constructive criticism. I’ve got a stats rating system I put together and I use similar groupings, but slightly different. I’ve got
5 – All-NBA (the five best guys)
10 – Superstars (the rest of the top half of the best players on a given team)
15 – Stars (The bottom half of guys who would be the best player on an average team.
- Up to this point you’ve named your top 30 players, so you figure on average, every team has a star)
30 – Marginal stars (Guys who’d be the second banana on your average team)
90 – Starters (Guys who’d fill out the starting rotation on your average team – 30 teams x 3 remaining starters per team)
30 – 6th Man
60 – Role Players (Guys who’d fill out the 7th and 8th man spots 2×30 teams)
120 – Bench players (Guys who’d be 9-12 on the average roster. 4×30 teams)
Everyone else is a Fringe player.
My point in going through all of this is that you’ve got only 40 guys who are “average starters”. Well, since there are 30 teams, that means each team is probably missing out on a few average starters, doesn’t it? :)
I don’t mean to detract from your analysis, which I think is great, just saying that your naming conventions could be a lil more meaningful.
De gustibus non est disputandum
I love you from a window to luol
like only a fellow prison inmate could. Kudos for your outstanding and comprehensive analysis. The things I loved most about your post include:
1) Clearly thorough and combines your statistical analysis with your on-court observations without necessarily subordinating one in favor of the other. And I like your weighting.
2) You acknowledge the possible shortcomings associated with such analysis
3) Your conclusions generally echo mine, though mine obviously were derived from observation. But intuitively one wouldn’t expect much deviation between the two and your analysis seems to support that.
by messwiththebull on Nov 13, 2008 8:10 PM CST reply actions
from the window to luol
Imaginative, thoughtful, just excellent. How could something this insightful be so disappointing. The Bulls aren’t good, which we’ve all suspected from time to time.
I have an assignment should you choose to accept it: tie salaries to the +’s and -‘s, the idea being to see how under/over valued the Bulls’ players are.
Thank you
This would be incredibly valuable.
And I echo the general appreciation for your work, window to luol. Make all these females crawl.
by arjoseph on Nov 14, 2008 12:07 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
One thing that'd make you happier is to extend the analysis backward
If you add in 05-06 and 04-05, you’ll do two things. +/-, even adjusted, becomes more accurate the more data (player/situations) you feed it. So you’ll make the analysis more accurate.
Happily, you’ll also make the analysis more favorable to the Bulls because Deng and Gordon will rate out a bit better
De gustibus non est disputandum
That's not easy to do in a meaningful way.
The 2007/2008 numbers he’s using already have numbers from 2004/05 to 2006/07 weighted in. In addition the adjusted plus/minus numbers were published by three different people over the years, all using different weights,sometimes including previous seasons, and displaying the results differently. I’ve added them together myself before, and they roughly reflect the the 2007/08 numbers,which include data from all the previous seasons where adjusted +/- was available.
That's odd
Not sure I can agree with that sort of methodology. I mean, one could generate a season-by-season number using the data for each particular season, but I’m not sure I can buy into the result an estimate of 07/08 performance when, in fact, it’s using data from prior seasons as well.
Since the season-to-season results are quite noisy in the first place, how that comes out is going to result almost entirely due to the weighting, which is by necessity going to be fairly arbitrary.
I’d be quite a bit more inclined to simply evenly weight all the data and say “this is the cumulative adjusted +/- for the player” and follow up that by taking the same dataset and then pull it out season-by-season to get individual season measures (If you’ve got all five years worth of raw data you can get over the problem of having different folks use different methonds!). Of course, the problem with that is simply that a single-season’s worth of data is going to cause big standard errors, but I can live with that because I’d rather be forced to look at each individual season datapoint along with the total estimate (which will have a small SE) to form a judgement.
That’s no fun for most people, but I guess I’m sort of suspicious of how the “weighting” works.
Beyond that, there’s no reason one couldn’t, with the same data, go back and run the analysis again for prior seasons, weighting them as 07/08 was weighted in this analysis.
That is, Ilardi did this sort of thing last year (using only 06/07 data), and then re-did it this year with a somewhat different methodology and data (5 seasons worth). Using the same methodology he used this year, what sort of result would he get for 06/07 +/- ? Using a single season’s data what sort of result would he get for each year?
Obviously there are lots of permutations along those lines, but it would be extremely interesting to see how they play out, and firing out a bunch of variations and then seeing how they change would be the only way, I think, to start getting at a good (ie rigorous) estimate of how to weight other seasons in a single season estimate.
(Sorry if this is an obtuse and muddled reply, but I make it a rule to try and keep the mathematical and scientific concepts in as close to plain English as possible)
One final aside. Using this weighting methodology, what we’re fundamentally doing is looking at all the data to estimate a player’s productivity, but saying data at a particular time is more important. Which, I understand, since we’re trying to look at a player’s value during that particular time.
So we get an “07/08” related estimate by applying the following sort of weights.
03/04 *
04/05 *
05/06 *
06/07 *
07/08 **
OK, following this logic, we will get a better estimate for 07/08 in a year, if we include 08/09 data
03/04 *
04/05 *
05/06 *
06/07 *
07/08 **
08/09 **
Is that ok to do? I’d think it is, since you’re going to further reduce your standard errors by capturing more information about the abilities of the players you’re adjusting. But it’s also pretty fundamentally strange to call the result an estimate of 07/08 productivity, isn’t it?
De gustibus non est disputandum
If I remember correctly about 80% of the 07/08
adjusted plus/minus came from the 07/08 season with the input of the previous seasons being used to lower the standard errors. What trips up adjusted plus minus is when players play almost all their court time together or never play together. Detroit was a huge problem for adjusted plus/minus because the 5 starters played so much together that credit didn’t get distributed accurately. Two or three starters would end up with all the credit for the lineup and the other starters would end up with huge negatives. Or last year Dwight Howard and Foyle never played together so they had huge standard errors.
Part of the problem right now is access to the raw data. To go back more than one season, you need 82games to agree to provide you with the data. And then you have to have the skills to create the ratings. Right now there has only been a handful of people creating adjusted plus minus ratings, and those people tend to quickly get hired by teams and stop making their work public. The two guys who work for the Mavs who started adjusted plus/mins and never made anything public. Rosenbaum and Lewin were hired by the Cavs, Eli W who figured out how to do it and even published on his website how to create the ratings was quickly hired by the Rockets, and now the guys that published the adjusted plus/minus numbers for 2007/08 are talking to some NBA teams.
Heh, maybe I need to set aside some time to lobby for that data
While I’m at it, I’ve been meaning to ask for a long time about some of the intricacies of how they code +/-. I’ve always assumed they just created a macro that parses NBA game logs. Unfortunately, if you don’t build a few more sophisticated checks into it, you’ll get systematic inaccuracies.
And in fact, I know these problems exist. What I don’t know is how big the problem is. I’d be quite interested in fixing the macro and re-running it on all the game logs for the past several years and finding out, however.
De gustibus non est disputandum
According to your system
I was right about our starting lineup heading into the season.
Rose, Thabo, Deng, Thomas, Noah. Not sure that exact group has ever been on the floor yet this season. However, I am not sure that they have played very well individually this season.
I always thought that Gooden was a mirage, He and Hughes are my first 2 choices for trade bait, followed by Gordon, Hinrich and Nocioni.
Deng hasn’t played up to his rating yet, although tonight(Dallas) he looked decent. I always thought that he was a liability on defense.
The real question on a Rose led team is Hinrich or Gordon. I can’t stand Gordon(despite tonights point outburst), because I value overall smart play over pure offense.
Your analysis proves, that the Bulls have 2 starting quality players, Rose and Deng, and a bunch of rotation players(5-10). We need to acquire a starting 2 guard, power forward and center. Hinrich, Thabo, Noah, Gray and Nocioni make a nice bench.
Nice to see that the numbers validate what I see with my own eyes. The Gordon manlove crew isn’t going to like this analysis, even though it proves how badly he sucked last season.
Hey BigWay,
as one of the biggest supporters of Thabo here, I will offer you this :
Gordon instead of Thabo in your starting lineup and you’re getting closer.
Honestly, you only look at Gordon’s adjusted plus/minus of last year (which was bad), but I think that the norm for Ben is more the previous year plus/minus (much better, and not far from Deng’s).
The Game chose him !
Gordon's adjusted +/- has fluctuated throughout the years because
Hinrich, Duhon, and Gordon’s numbers were somewhat tied together because at least 2 of 3 was almost always on the court together. Most of the time the Bulls’ point differential was better when ever Gordon was one of the guards on the court so he got the majority of the adjusted +/- credit.
visiting from Bedge
and rec’d. good post. geat post
I've got a plan......we lob up a bad shot that Dwight can block, but we do it in such a way that it hits either Rashard or Hedo in the head knocking them out for the game.
--Magnum
This basically tells me "the Bulls are not really good" ;-)
Though I doubt we have many guys that are rated better in +/-
Great Post!
I really enjoy looking at stats, PER, and the like, but never want to solely rely on it. But it is nice when stats actually make sense or help to clarify players or teams for you. This does for me. We are a #9 team in the east without Rose and Deng becoming All-Stars or making a trade that gets us a decent Center. BTW, did VDN make Gooden a captain on the team to up his trade value?
I also would love to see how this system you have here fits with salaries. It certainly helps explain why BG isn’t worth 10 mil.
I'm up to 15 :)
I need to bring a Shawon-o-meter type thing to the UC estimating the Ben Gordon contract.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 14, 2008 10:16 AM CST up reply actions
Great post, some issues with adjusted +/- though
Gordon is shitty when he’s the only scorer on the floor and ends up taking every Bulls shot after dribbling around for 22 seconds. Which was every close 4th quarter last year.
This year, though, it’s different because of Rose. I don’t have adjusted +/- for this season, but Gordon’s regular +/- is +17.2 so far this year while Deng is at -25. You say that Deng can someday be a top-25 player, but do you see anything in his game/athleticism that resembles a top-25 guy? He can’t even create his own shot.
So much of a players’ +/- value, I think, comes from the system they play in. And because of the slow pace of the Skiles offense, along with all the scoring pressure placed on Gordon, I think Ben’s adjusted value was hurt by that system. Just from watching them over the past couple years, it’s Ben that has the outside chance of being a top-25 guy, not Luol.
Regardless, a big +1 for me, and I’m glad we have posts like this on this board.
Skiles actually had the Bulls at a high pace
however I think it was mostly by virtue of quick jump shots in the possession, not really running fast breaks (which was never Hinrich’s strong suit).
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 14, 2008 10:15 AM CST up reply actions
Well, maybe not the fast break, but the "secondary break".
That was Roy Williams’ signature thing at Kansas. As i understand it, it basically meant that a team set up their offensive play as soon as possible, whether from a rebound or made basket or a turnover. Don’t give it to the PG to dribble around, take 4-7 seconds to cross the court, another 2 or 3 to get into the play, etc. They basically did super fast outlets and looked to pass it into the halfcourt and be into runnign a play in under… 5-8 seconds?
In this way, this would mirror what you were saying about the quick jumpshots. Plus the Bulls defending by not going for turnovers, but keeping position in making difficult shots would allow fast transition.
I didn’t watch enough of the Bulls or pay close enough attention to if this happened, but… it sort of makes sense???
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
The season is young.
1. The designation of someone as a “top-25” guy or whatever isn’t necessarily helpful. In a fantasy draft, I’m not taking Deng in the top 25. If we’re ranking the players in one-on-one ability, Deng wouldn’t be 25th. That doesn’t mean he can’t be the second or third best player on a championship squad. Rip Hamilton also isn’t top-25, but he was the main offensive focus of a championship team. Deng could be our James Worthy. We just need to get him some goggles. (He won’t be James Worthy, but he could fill that role on our team.)
2. “Create his own shot” gets thrown around a lot. Technically, anyone can create a shot for himself. The question is whether the shot is a good one. Ben Gordon is a great shooter and an above-average dribbler, but when he “creates” by forcing a floater over two seven footers, that’s not good. With his height, Deng can shoot over most SFs. With his strength, he can do some things down low. And, with his quickness for his size and his instincts cutting to the basket, he can create good looks off the ball. He’s not Kobe, Iverson, Paul Pierce, or Derrick Rose, who can break down a defense by himself, but (a) we don’t need him to with Rose there to do that if needed, and (b) he creates offense in ways nobody else on the team can.
3. The season is young. There are lots of good players getting off to inconsistent starts. Deng has had good games and bad. He (and most of the rest of the team) don’t really know how to work together yet. He’ll figure it out. Then we can more accurately evaluate what he brings.
Finally got around to reading this (and I'll have to do so again, heh)
Very cool stuff. This is basically like that ‘gold medal superstar’ theory, except it actually had a thoughtful premise, and didn’t wind up the most annoying thing ever conceived :)
I like that the numbers bear out how important interior defense is, so that Duncan and Garnett are even ahead of Paul and Bryant. This is why I was against the assumption that Beasley would ever be the type to be the best on a title team, he’d likely never rate well on defense so it’d be really hard for him to reach those upper tiers.
Naturally, another season will do wonders, especially re: Rose. But also with Gordon as well in how he can play with Rose, especially given his start. I know that this adjusts for teammates, but only the teammates contributions, not things like commanding defensive attention. So maybe a couple guys can see their # go up just from a Rose effect.
Yet on the other side, the hope that Tyrus would become an upper-tier player and open up another option for team-building doesn’t look so good. But I still have hope. Something like Rose (++++) Deng (+) Gordon() Thomas () Noah () . Maybe 3 (+) guys exceeding 1 (+) and 2 () players.
(Either that or acquiring Chris Bosh ::shrug::)
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 14, 2008 10:14 AM CST reply actions
I also liked the idea of only worrying about 8 considering the playoffs
however I think that players 9 and 10 can’t be absolute sinkholes.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 14, 2008 10:18 AM CST up reply actions
I think it's really about finishing around the rim for Thomas.
If he can do that, his efficiency skyrockets. If he can do that AND hit jumpers, it allows more drives to the basket… which would culminate in better finsihing. Plus, in his first season, he was absolutely dominating on defense. One could argue (based on the DRtg from basketball-reference that I have no idea how it’s figured out) that he was better than Duncan and Wallace, just in a lot less time. while it wasn’t likely that he’d keep up that 13.8 mpg production in the near future, I think we all assumed that the potential for being a true defensive superstar was possible.
If you combined that w/ an offensive ability that one could envision being somewhere between Wallace and Duncan (because of his ability to dribble and pass and shoot and his athletic ability), it wasn’t too crazy to think the “star” potential wasn’t there.
While optimistic, I don’t think something like (++++) /+ was completely ridiculous. (An average starter offensively, but among the very, very best defensively.) It obviously appears so now. At this point, I’d accept () even/+. An fring starter offensively, but playing defense at a “near All-Star”. he’s still a loooooong way from that, but it’s still possible. Maybe?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
The "if" in your first sentence is a huge "if."
But even assuming that he figures out layups and increases his offensive efficiency, I think Tyrus remains a defensive liability in a way. He’s wonderful for team defense, patrolling the lane from the weak side, disrupting passing lanes with his length and athleticism. That being said, Michael Sweetney could post him up one handed (while eating a pork chop in the other). He’s still young, so maybe he’ll bulk up more and get closer to Shawn Kemp than he is now, but some of it is skill-based, too. He doesn’t know how to use his body to defend the post.
Hmmm... lots wrong w/ that.
Of course it’s a huge “if”. After his rookie season, it wasn’t so much, though. It was’t far-fetched after his rookie season that that wouldn’t be a skill he could probably learn. That he hasn’t looked to have gotten better at it since, makes it that huge “if” now. It drops him from a potential superstar, to a potential “really good player”.
Also, Mike Sweetney couldn’t post-up Thomas. Okay, he could, but he wouldn’t get a shot off because someone like Sweetney is exactly the type of person Thomas eats for lunch (ironic pun intended). Sweetney isn’t releasing a hook or a job shot from 10+ ft above the ground like someone like Pachulia or Garnett or Wallace do. I like my arguments/discussions based in reality and not hyperbole.
Anyway, the fact that his “post defense” is partly about size and strength and partly about technique, two things that are very correctable, still allows for the possibility that he could get better at it.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Actually, I picked Sweetney for a reason.
I think Sweetney is the type of player who gives Tyrus problems. Despite being disinterested and out of shape, Sweetney had lots of skill. This is all hypothetical speculation anyway, but Tyrus bites on all types of ball fakes in his aggressive attempt to block shots (which he knows he’s good at). Any crafty player of any size can own Tyrus, establishing deep position, getting him off balance, and probably getting him into foul trouble. Sweetney specifically would only be able to do this for two possessions before getting tired, but the principle is there.
Great post...
thoroughly enjoyed reading it. Thank you.
"Worker bees can leave.
Even drones can fly away.
The Queen is their slave."
one of the more insightful post i've ever read on BaB.
but i guess it’s always nice to read things that confirm what you thought without the statistical analysis.
Cashing checks and having sex.
Wonderful post
Keep the good work ;)
http://comunidadebulleana.blogspot.com/ - Comunidade Bulleana (O blog dos Bulls em Portugal)
This is a great post.
Saber Basketball? This looks like a start.
Top Josh Paul Pornos- Big Navi Stroking, 2pitchers1cup, BJ to the Balls, Riggans Your Thingans
09: This one is for all the rings.
ben has the best +/- on the team
besides Nichols be he doesn’t count since he played one min…currently he is at +6.7
Outstanding post...completely agree with your assessment...
It is now clear that barring injury, Rose will be at least an all-Star, and more likely an all-NBA type player in 3 years. If either Lu or Gordon can be top 50 players consistently, that is a good foundation. Noah is a good complement, and Gooden and Hughes need to disappear.
by bullsfaninbigapple on Nov 16, 2008 12:02 AM CST reply actions
GREAT POST!!!!
I would like to add some perspective using your stats. Though it shows a larger picture of the bull’s player development in the last 2 years, it does not take into account what I consider 2 very important new factors:
The Tyson Chandler effect and the Suns Central Revamp.
Let’s start with the Tyson Chandler effect. The addition of a top tier point guard has already changed the dynamic of his teammates. Just as Derrick Rose will lead the rookie of the year race because of his team being built around him so to will the players around him grow.
Ben Gordon I think is the most obvious example to begin with. He has been the top scorer in spite of a league wide response to double and triple team him. He is a very good scorer. His inability to dribble and his lack of good passing out of this type of coverage has been well documented here, but now teams will be forced to choose between doubling him up or doubling up Rose. He will flourish under this more lax coverage. (You can also see how watching Derrick Rose finish around the rim is affecting Gordon’s shot selections in a good way.)
Next is our most consistent (and still young) Luol Deng. This post clearly shows how his abilities as a player on both the offensive and defensive sides make him a very good player. We are starting to see how a somewhat stronger Deng in combination with a non-dribbling-the-ball-to-run-down-the-clock-who-can-make-great-passes-and-force-teams-to-follow-their-coverages-while-still-being-able-to-finish-in-the-lane-point-guard will lead to lesser clogged lanes for Deng to attack the basket. This point cannot be underestimated. The difference between Rose and Hinrich running the team is too large. Teams have to deal with Rose’s passing abilities now. Hinrich has never been able to do that well. (And I’d like to point out that Duhon’s "true point guard" skills have been upgraded by Hinrich’s shooting and defensive abilities as the backup point)
Though not initially suspected by me to see much of an improvement, I am seeing how Nocioni is quickly becoming a great teammate for the "Rose Experiment". He may have looked like a selfish player last year, but we have to be honest about the fact that the rest of the team was just not willing to score last year. He has played with great point guards before in the Argentinean National gold medal winning team and has seemed to buy into this system all too well this year. He never looked like a shooter during his first year as a bull, but that is a common problem to foreign players coming into the NBA their first year. He can shoot AND take slower power forwards to the hole. (Again, wider lanes due to having a great point.)
Then there is the obvious but yet to fully develop feeds to the bigs in the lane. We saw in the Indiana game the beautiful pass to Noah for an easy dunk. We know from the Tyson Chandler scenario that a mediocre player of that caliber can flourish with a great passer. We have 3 bigs who should at some point come to develop under Rose’s passing skills. Once they learn how to stick around the paint for those beautiful passes!
Now let’s analyze the Sun’s Central review:
In VDN and his staff we have a new philosophy as well as a supporting cast willing and able to develop young talent. In Vinnie, we have a coach who actually plans to take full advantage of a young AND VERY FAST group of players. I just don’t believe that Skile’s had a very good concept of how to utilize his players. But to be fare, I just don’t believe that Hinrich is good enough to manage this type of tempo. (I remember all too well how last year Hinrich tried to feed Noah on a fast break and his pass went wild)
With every new game, you can see how the team as a whole is starting to understand how to play better in VDN’s system. They look better after every game played. Like the early learner in Noc, Gordon and Deng are starting to trust in Rose’s skills and Vinnie’s fast paced schemes. There has been a marked improvement in every game play by this team.
Stats from the last two years cannot describe the effects of these two changes on this bull’s team. But they do seem to give us a better perspective on the natural talent levels of our players. Still, I believe that due to these changes, the Bull’s as a team have a higher upswing then the static data would suggest.
I still contend that we will need an inside defender against the top tier big men to truly compete for a title, but I believe that our team has turned the page from being a lower to middling team to a top tier team because of these two upgrades. We can run, defend and when our offense stagnates, Rose will take over (or Gordon). Yes we need a big man to truly compete, but we are well on our way now.
Something is wrong with your 0.83 rating of Tyrus...
…. his number should be near
+21, irregardless of his production on defense or offensive..
Irregardless isn't a standard word of the English language.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Nov 16, 2008 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
tyger1147 my friend.. sólo le daría un culo ratas
“Now, on to dictionaries. ….. it’s true that the American Heritage Dictionary, the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary, and the Oxford English Dictionary all list the word irregardless, they also note that it’s considered nonstandard. Listing a word as nonstandard is a way that dictionaries concede that a word is in common use, but isn’t really a proper word”
man up!
Um... exactly?
And, uh, what’s w/ the Spanish? As if free translations aren’t on the web.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
but can you translate to and from "D-Bag"?
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 17, 2008 12:34 PM CST up reply actions
not you :-p
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 17, 2008 4:05 PM CST up reply actions
underwhelm
“I am so underwhelmed by this Bulls this season.”
(not a word) ha
by chicago-homesick-blues on Nov 16, 2008 3:53 PM CST up reply actions
Related article in the Sun-Times today
Stat whiz: Plus/minus top indicator of performance http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/bulls/1283126,CST-SPT-bull17.article
As impressive as Derrick Rose’s game-high 23 points, 56 percent shooting and eight assists were in the Bulls’ 104-91 win Saturday over Indiana, there was perhaps a more-telling statistic: Rose’s plus-20.
‘’The plus/minus stat in basketball is the single-best number to indicate a player’s performance,‘’ John Dewan, former CEO of STATS Inc., and current owner of Baseball Info Solutions, said via e-mail. ’’It measures what really counts: how many points are scored and allowed when the player is on the court. It’s more important than scoring averages, rebounds, assists, etc., because it measures defense. Defense is 50 percent of the game and most stats [except for steals and rebounds, for the most part] are about offense. Last year, the plus/minus leader in the NBA was Kevin Garnett, well known for his defense.’’
Andres Nocioni, who was plus-16 Saturday and plus-54 for the season, was the only Bull among the top 50, tied for 26th. He hasn’t started this season.
‘’The one negative I have seen is that it can suggest a bench player is better than a starter on a specific team,’’ Dewan said. ‘’Starters, by definition, are going up against the best players in the league, while bench players are usually playing against other bench players for the most part. As an example, the Bulls’ Tyrus Thomas has the worst plus/minus on the Bulls (minus-37). Thomas is going up against other starters while Nocioni plays more against second-line players. Would Nocioni play better than Thomas given the exact same minutes against the exact same players as Thomas? I suspect he would, but the plus/minus stat doesn’t tell us for sure.’’
by from the window to luol on Nov 17, 2008 1:04 PM CST reply actions
Luol... you realize, right, that the unadjusted plus/minus these guys are talking about is very different from the stuff you originally cited here, right?
It’s also pretty insane to point to Nocioni with these numbers. Talk about small sample size. The stat gets more accurate over longer time periods (which simultaneously makes it more and less useful), and if you look at Noc over the course of his career, he’s been consistently awful. Of the current Bulls, Deng and Gordon come significantly positive over their careers. Kirk and Tyrus are mildly positive. Nocioni is a toxic waste spill of plus minusness.
Also, mad props to whomever the hell John Dewan is for having the gall to utter “most stats [except for steals and rebounds, for the most part] are about offense”. Smart one, sherlock. And blocks and fouls. Yeah.
De gustibus non est disputandum
Yes, adjusted stats are much better reflections of a player's contribution.
I was just pointing this out as a step in the right direction. Of course, a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous, but the author is clearly interested in presenting better statistical methods of player evaluation and is asking some of the right questions. In applying plus/minus to the Bulls so far this season, he is careful to note that Nocioni’s good unadjusted stats likely come against inferior competition and thus should not be taken to mean that he has been the team’s best player, or even better than a starter with a bad +/-. Also, while it may be common knowledge on blogabull that basic player stats relate almost entirely to offensive production and are largely based on opportunity (playing time, on-court teammates & opponents, etc.), I bet a lot of fans haven’t really thought about it like that. The article doesn’t present anything earth-shattering, but it seems like progress to me.
by from the window to luol on Nov 17, 2008 2:37 PM CST up reply actions
In terms of exposure maybe
but it’s an indicator that StatsInc is still several years behind.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 17, 2008 4:06 PM CST up reply actions
john dewan
is a lot smarter than you. if you took the time to do any research. perhaps not in the basketball world. yet. look up his baseball rating system for defense.
My research indicates smart people do stupid shit all the time
And Dewan might be a smart guy, and most likely smarter than me, but his quote in this case was hyperbolic and silly.
And as a matter of fact, I have taken the time to do significant research on the subject.
De gustibus non est disputandum
This is just raw +/- after 10 games
Nothing to take to the bank.
"get rid of the wiry cunt, he’s fucking hopeless"
by hoodlight on Nov 14, 2008 8:02 PM CST 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Nov 17, 2008 2:31 PM CST up reply actions
Really cool post here;
I’m curious what statistical models they use for +/-. Otherwise I feel like I’m flying blind.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
I've decided Chris Bosh is the Holy Grail.
Roster and ages for 2011-2012 season
Rose(23)—Hinrich(31)
Gordon(28)—Hinrich(31)—Thabo
Deng(26)—Budinger(23)—Thabo
Bosh(27)—Asik(25)—some PF-defensive minded 2010 draft pick
Noah(26)—Asik(25)—Gray
I honestly fail to see how that is not a legitimate title-contender for three to five years straight. Obviously, to be a true title-favorite, they’d have to get marginal improvements by Gordon and Deng and still decent improvements from Noah. Asik would have to be legitimate and Hinrich won’t really be able to slow down.
I firmly believe that a backcourt of Rose—Gordon—Hinrich is an expensive, but extremely good one. Rigth when Rose will be getting his extension (after his fourth season, though he can sign it after his third), Hinrichh will come off the books. If the team can shed Hinrich’s salary for something in return for a decent combo guard, great.
The real problem, as it has been since the day he signed it, is Nocioni’s contract. if they can rid his contract for someone that expires this year, no matter how bad, they can re-sign Gordon. Let Gooden go. Suck ass up front for one year, then bring in Bosh and Asik and you’re golden.
Obviously, if they don’t get Bosh, they’re still a perimter-oriented team, but they’re still a darn good team Rose, Hinrich, Gordon, Deng and Noah.
Anywaaaaaaayyyyy….
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
There's no way Bosh leaves Toronto to come here. They can offer him more years and more money.
The money difference is significant enough that there’s no way he could make up for it in endorsements in the “big” Chicago market. The Bulls should be looking to take advantage of the market right now for 2010 guys and look to this summer’s free agents and maybe the guys that are available in 2011. I’d say it’s more likely that the Knicks get both Bosh and LeBron than it is that the Bulls get Bosh or Wade or anyone else of significance in the 2010 sweepstakes (and I’m not even all that convinced that the Knicks get either of those guys).
by fundamentallysound on Nov 21, 2008 6:03 PM CST up reply actions

by 














