Atlanta 113, Bulls 108: Frontcourt fiasco
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 11, 2008 11:08 PM CST
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PrintThe Bulls aren't going to win much if Thomas and Noah don't play well. The roster has been pretty much cleared out for them to get big minutes, and they were charged with even more responsibility with Drew Gooden out.
So not only did they not deliver solid games, they layed a collective stinkbomb in 48 combined minutes: 5 points on 2-11 shooting, 13 rebounds, 3 TOs (all by Tyrus). Defensively, they were abused inside by Al Hortford and Zaza Pachulia, who was perhaps inspired by reading Sam Smith saying that Ben Gordon could guard him. No Sam, he couldn't, but neither could Thomas, who would constantly give up position for a prayer shotblocking chance.
Such a combined suckfest means that Vinny feels the need (shortsidedly or not) to rely heavily on Nocioni, who played a manageable 31 minutes but it included the final 18 minutes of the game. Or Aaron Gray, who....again, he's just not an NBA player (not for 17 minutes, anyway). Or worse: playing them together, which has been proven many many times over that it's not sustainable as they can't rebound or defend for their positions.
I would've preferred that Vinny just realize that no matter how bad Thomas or Noah play, Noc/Gray is not an answer...but if there was a night where he felt he couldn't put them back in, I guess this would be it.
But while I think the extended stretch to end the game had him out of gas, Nocioni had a great night. It exhibited the disconnect between what Noc actually does well, and what I read from others suggesting he does well. He had a great game tonight not because he hustled or screamed or flopped, but because he was running to the 3-point line, quickly getting his shot off, and making 4-9 from that range. When he does that, it's a great contribution off the bench, especially since it fits so well with Rose's penetration (Neil Funk called Nocioni Rose's "favorite"). But it's also something he has to do successfully to be productive: he still had 4 rebounds and 5 fouls in his time out there, so expecting him to handle major minutes at the 4 is foolish.
But that's really not his fault, it's on Thomas and Noah to man those frontcourt spots. Heck, Josh Smith wasn't even playing tonight.
More thoughts on the game.
- Gordon was a bit too shot-happy, and while a lot of it went in the first half, it didn't in the second. If 19 points on 8-20 shooting (and 4ast 1TO) is the worst we see, it'll be a heck of a season, but the more important thing is him still running 'my turn' possessions when Rose is on the court. When Rose is off the court and he's running the point, I'm perfectly fine with the Ben Gordon show. Defensively, while Joe Johnson didn't do as much damage as the midget-phobes had suggested, he did loafed at times rotating to 3-point shooters, and it killed them in the 4th.
- I thought Deng had a good night, outside of a stretch where 2 TOs (his only of the game) led to 2 Bibby 3-pointers. They seemed to look for him early in each half, and he was actually posting up after the Hawks would switch on picks. Also got to the line 6 times, and had 10 rebounds.
- Thabo had his first real good game of the year. Still can't shoot, but he had 3 steals and two blocks. Those typically mean the fast break, which then means it doesn't matter if he can shoot or not.
- Near the end of the game Vinny basically tanked it, with Rose/BG/Thabo/Deng/Noc. Of course, Al Hortford gets a couple offensive rebounds, and Stacy King says "they have to keep Hortford off the glass", as if it's a question of effort.
- Then Gray came in with two minutes left for no real reason.
- Interesting that to end both the 2nd and 3rd quarters, it was Rose (not Gordon) who was the one dribbling out the clock. Rose scored on both possessions.
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As much as I love me some Tyrus
I really wish the Bulls would do anything possible to package him in a deal somehow for Kaman (If he really is available).
The funny thing is that I’m biased to players sometimes just from the way they look.
Much of the reason I hate Aaron Gray.
But I’m so desperate for low post help right now that I think Kaman’s ugly ass would be perfect for this team
by Option27 on Nov 11, 2008 11:22 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Wow, couldn't have said it better myself.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Kaman's ugliness would be eclipsed by Ruffin
so it wouldn’t bother us as much. I’d like to deal Tyrus before his value evaporates. This does not mean he won’t be a productive NBA player or can’t be one at times now, but it does mean he won’t come anywhere close to the expectations attached to what really was the 2nd pick in the draft. I hope to be eating crow by season’s end.
by messwiththebull on Nov 12, 2008 6:44 PM CST up reply actions
I'm very frustrated with Tyrus, and he seems like a guy that's just never going to get it
but he is still REALLY young and I’m hesitant to just completely give up on him, because of that. I’m still holding out hope that he can put it together over the course of this year. Season is still young.
by fundamentallysound on Nov 11, 2008 11:27 PM CST reply actions
I'm not giving up either
I’ll likely be last off that crashing bandwagon.
But honestly, I don’t think Tyrus has much trade value now anyway.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 11, 2008 11:40 PM CST up reply actions
yeah, I'm not advocating getting rid of him at all... we likely would get scraps for him
and he’d likely burn us by going to another team and turning into Tyson Chandler Redux but I am highly frustrated with him and hope he gets his act together sooner rather than later.
by fundamentallysound on Nov 12, 2008 1:19 AM CST up reply actions
There's no value to trading him now;
and he still has a lot of room to grow. That said, if the Bulls can acquire a good power foward – whether through trade, free agency or the draft – you now have to make the move. Tyrus’ play hasn’t warranted putting the future of the franchise in his hands.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
well I still blame that last coach for it
I’m not having some shift in philosophy regarding Tyrus after 8 games. It would’ve been nice if he carried over a solid preseason into more than game one, but I think he’s just having a bad start to the season.
All this game-to-game reaction regarding whether he’s a ‘bust’ or not is pointless….unless the coaching staff has as short of a rope as some of us here do. I’m fine with leaving him out there a lot…even when he’s not hitting shots he’ll produce (outside of last night, he was just plain terrible on both ends last night), whether it’s at a level of a #2 overall pick isn’t a necessary standard until he gets this full season. Then it goes on Paxson’s permanent record.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
I agree
with you wholeheartedly. The goal for this year is a rebuilding year and to see what we got. Granted I like giving guys like Tyrus time (15 MPG on bad nights and 30+ on good nights) to get them more acclimated…..
Yesterday was one of those, glad we gave Tyrus a chance, but he was awful nights.
I don’t think we should tank the year though, because we have enough of the youth movement on this team….
I’m not ready to call it quits and say T2 is a complete bust, but yesterday’s game was a big strike on him…..although then he’ll rebound and play a great game soon and I’ll be all “ooo-wow” again.
I would agree with you on that they gave him a chance
except that Gooden wasn’t available….so he should’ve gotten some of those minutes even if they weren’t deserved.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
Fair enough
I’m glad he got some time, even though he looked awful, simply awful….but yeah knowing now that it was a loss, I’d say put him in for more, but knowing that we might have had a chance for a win when watching the game, I was fine with the decision to bench him. Tyrus has to learn that it’s his chance first, but he has to bring it every night too.
My response is the blame the last coach got was largely undeserved
Both Tyrus and Thabo were brought along fine their rookie year. They got consistent minutes as the year went on and played consistent roles toward the end of the year. One might quibble here or there, but that hardly seems like a complete misuse or failure to try and develop them.
Moving on to last year, I’ll simply say that I don’t think my philosophy has shifted. I thought Tyrus’ initial benching last year was a bit quick, but both he and Thabo were given the opportunity to step up and play well and they quite simply stank it up. That was my opinion then and it’s my opinion of Tyrus’ performance this year.
And though he was solid in the pre-season on the whole, he was also the worst shootingest big man this side of Ben Wallace. Let’s not say he had us primed with expectations of stardom.
All that being said, I do favor continuing to give him a healthy run, but there’s limits. And realistically speaking, that’s a selfish request to want to see him play 30mpg every night. Seeing him on the court might validate our opinions, but truth be told the coaches see this guy play and prepare infinitely more than we do already. That doesn’t make them infallible, but I can certainly understand why they’ll have “seen enough” before I have.
De gustibus non est disputandum
I used to demand minutes for Tyrus as well
and then I saw him get them and started to change my tune. But I have to stick to my original request and see what he can become because he’s still only 22. But there is a fine line between waiting too long and not waiting long enough and that is what all my fear and trade outbursts are feeding off of.
Tyson keeps getting brought up but I always thought Tyson put up the production and the numbers in his time with the exception of his last year here where I could come to no other conclusion other than that he regressed, but even then I attributed much of it to losing Curry with no real frontcourt complement to replace Eddy. But I never questioned Tyson’s IQ (maybe his toughness), never questioned what position and role he played / should play, and never questioned what the true strengths of his game were.
by messwiththebull on Nov 12, 2008 6:51 PM CST up reply actions
It's almost time to give Tyrus the "Stromile Swift Award" given for outstanding jumping and blocking
ability, but mediocrity at the game of basketball.
He either doesn’t care about basketball or just isn’t much of a competitor or is just too small to play PF/Center and doesn’t have the handle to play SF. He acts like a track star FORCED to play basketball. His overall defense is average and rebounding average to slightly above average for his position. He’s not “a monster on the boards” like Tyson Chandler or Dennis Rodman were, and he doesn’t have Horace Grant’s strength or size.
Tyrus doesn’t have enough basketball skills…and that curmudgeon Sam Smith was probably right for calling him out oh his immaturity and laziness in improving specific skills.
Bulls fans laugh when stupid TV commentators suggest Luol Deng should play shooting guard, because we all have seen that Deng does not have the handle to be a guard. Deng can be a pretty good small forward, though…we’ve all seen enough to see that. Deng CAN’T play guard.
But Tyrus? He just can’t play the 5, or the 3, and now even the 4 is in doubt as anything but a career backup. I have a hard time recalling any match-up that he’s dominated. He’s mentally weak with mood swings.
After a few years in the league, Tyrus was supposed to be similar to Shawn Kemp in his prime. Even with that great jumping ability, Tyrus is a BELOW AVERAGE FINISHER with the slightest hint of contact throwing him off balance. Up and Down, TY IS AWESOME. Left and Right? Not so much.
…
Maybe to save his career, Tyrus should forget about blocks altogether…worrying more about rebounding ONLY (blocking out his man, playing good defense) so he can be Derrick Rose’s wingman on fast breaks. Since he can’t right now, because he’s waiting for the block…and ALSO BECAUSE HE’S JOGGING and not running.
by KentuckyBullsFan on Nov 12, 2008 12:54 AM CST up reply actions
I agree, he IS young, but
isn’t it a terrible sign that his game seems to be digressing?
Yes, he is a freak athlete, but where’s the Tyrus of old? That jumper, hitch and everything, has become his entire offensive moveset.
Didn’t he used to dunk on these same Hawks?Just think of what old Tyrus could have done tonight against them, without Josh Smith.
"That was a great play by me."-Champ Bailey
by Just got mugged by Pete Myers on Nov 12, 2008 2:35 AM CST up reply actions
it's a bad sign
if it lasts all season. I’ll still say it’s an early-season slump, new offense, whatever.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 9:30 AM CST up reply actions
Do you think he would be the type to bolt
If this team don’t get better by the time his contract is up?
oh please god no
i don’t even want to think about it.
Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team.
-- Scottie Pippen
by Orlando Woolridge on Nov 11, 2008 11:44 PM CST up reply actions
Not if
he ever wants to show his face again in his hometown
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Nov 12, 2008 9:06 AM CST up reply actions
those two Deng TO's were absolute killers
Noc + Rose got us back in the game, then Deng quickly killed us.
instead of having to come back from one 10 point lead, we had to come back from two.
Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team.
-- Scottie Pippen
by Orlando Woolridge on Nov 11, 2008 11:45 PM CST reply actions
I totally agree!
It’s the problem I have with Ben Gordon. You can’t just look at the box score. What is the good of lighting it up if you give the ball away when it matters at the end of the game. To Luol’s credit, he doesn’t usually do this and he is still trying to figure out how to play his game in this new “Rose” offense, but those TOs which looked almost as if he owed a Mobster money and was throwing the game they were so bad, killed us tonight. The fact is when you have no strength up front, you have to find another way to win, so you can’t just blame it on Noah and TT for lacking strength, although it was driving me nuts all night watch Al just shove them both wherever he wanted. We could have easily won this game.
it was two posessions, and it's not directly causal that Bibby hit two 3-pointers.
I read that game thread (unfortunately), you guys were way over the top on it.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 11, 2008 11:57 PM CST up reply actions
those two TOs took us out of the game
we were rollin with momentum on that run.
Noc made a great play to get the 70 million dollar man a wide open dunk there though.
Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team.
-- Scottie Pippen
by Orlando Woolridge on Nov 12, 2008 12:01 AM CST up reply actions
I said it last night, I'll say it again:
this is nuts. Deng had an efficent 20/10 night. We lost because we’re missing viable big men and don’t play defense.
Yeah, two turnovers, I saw them. But I also saw progress. I saw flashes of the old Luol – cutting, rebounds, less 1-on-1. The turnovers were when he tried to go iso again, which is what works…when Derrick’s doing it.
Was it bad? Yep. But he’s learning.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Deng
Had a GREAT 20/10 night….the two turnovers while inopportune weren’t the plays that killed this game. Deng’s D was there all night and he was active on the boards and taking good shots.
Can’t hang Tyrus and Noah’s bad play on Deng tonight, who did live up to his salary in last night’s game.
Doug Collins would have labeled it a 10 point swing
Deng’s 2 turnovers took away what appeared to be four likely points for the Bulls and concluded with six points scored on the Hawks’ end.
by messwiththebull on Nov 12, 2008 6:54 PM CST up reply actions
But that's what game threads are for
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
heh, good point.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 9:31 AM CST up reply actions
Rose did even better tonight
when you consider he pulled a muscle in his back in the first quarter.
"Worker bees can leave.
Even drones can fly away.
The Queen is their slave."
It was just in espn game recap
"Worker bees can leave.
Even drones can fly away.
The Queen is their slave."
gordon should not be bringing up the ball...
period. that is Rose’s job. he does it well enough. and until proven otherwise, i officially think Tyrus is a scrub. he has physical gifts, but not the talent to execute fundamentals. coaching is not gonna fix it. he is what he is. i’m sick of watching that crap.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 12, 2008 12:20 AM CST reply actions
Great post
Gordon had a dribble in the 3rd that ticked me off! He’s an a*hole btw for that..this game definately proved that we need an inside scorer cuz Rose was makes too much effort driving in to make points
"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury's Head Tattoo
looking back at that comment
it didnt sound like a logical sentence…damn you beer!
Side note: Why did I just find out thatbar across the street has League Pass?
"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury's Head Tattoo
Tyrus's problem is that he's an idiot
He might be a smart guy, I don’t know, but he plays like he drafted himself on his own fantasy team. He takes jumpshots that aren’t his to take, he dribbles coast-to-coast and behind his back before attempting a to thread the needle with a bounce pass, and he goes for the block when just holding his ground would be plenty.
I was at the Cavs game earlier this week, and on back to back possessions Ben Wallace had the ball in the post with the shotclock running down, and Tyrus was guarding him. Both times, Ben faked a hookshot. Anybody else in the world would’ve let the shot go up, then turned around to catch the carom off the scoreboard. But Tyrus, both times, jumped to try to block the shot. And Ben leaned in and drew the foul.
Keep in mind, Tyrus had practiced against Ben every day for 1.5 seasons. He of anybody should’ve known how bad Ben Wallace is at scoring. And yet he went up for the block both times. It dawned on me then that Tyrus will never be an NBA starter. He doesn’t learn.
That was probably the saddest sequence in Tyrus' career
I’ve been a massive Tyrus apologist, but it’s starting to get really difficult to watch. I hope he turns it around, but I just don’t know.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
At least we're figuring out what he can do!
Yes, he sucked yesterday. But if VDN hadn’t played him we would still be wondering what the heck he can do.
I really do hope Tyrus figures out that he pretty much just plays well near the baseline
Like those coaches (not to be named) last year said
Does anyone here think Derrick Rose could be voted as an All-Star THIS year?
Wade will definitely be the starting SG barring injury, but the PG competition in the East looks pretty weak now with Chauncey traded to Denver and Kidd playing for Dallas.
Who is DRose’s competition besides an aging Allen Iverson?Jameer Nelson? Mayo?
by KentuckyBullsFan on Nov 12, 2008 1:34 AM CST reply actions
Jose Calderon
In the east right now, he’s the only PG I can think of that is as good or better than Rose. And of course Iverson will get in.
Calderon no doubt,
but Derrick’s better, better known, and will have better numbers than TJF.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Allen Iverson
is a lock at 1 guard spot, Dwyane Wade is another lock,
I would think Joe Johnson is another lock,
Then Ray Allen will get the benefit of the doubt pick from the crazy Celtics fans (and why not, he’s a classy guy who while not quite what he was, was once amazing and underappreciated)…
Then the 5th spot likely is a dogfight between:
Rip Hamilton
Jose Calderon
Derrick Rose
Mike Bibby
TJ Ford
Ben Gordon
Vince Carter
I don’t know…..
last year's starting PG in the East was Gilbert Arenas...and he's injured.
Possibly Joe Johnson could be considered a “point guard” (considering last year for the West Tracy McGrady started as PG with Kobe as the SG)…but the competition is weak.
Even if Joe Johnson were the other guard, DRose being an All-Star backup his rookie year doesn’t sound too crazy right now.
by KentuckyBullsFan on Nov 12, 2008 1:47 AM CST up reply actions
whoops...you're right...I was looking at the 2007 game instead of 2008
…but most of my comments still apply.
…
Hey…homer Sam Smith’s article today suggested DRose deserves to be on the East All-Stars. He probably won’t get voted in as a guard, so the All-Star coaching staff would have to vote him in. Could happen.
by KentuckyBullsFan on Nov 12, 2008 6:37 PM CST up reply actions
All-Star balloting is done by guard, forward and center only— not point guard, 2 guard, small forward, etc. So, Rose would have to get more votes than Wade, Arenas (he’ll get votes), AI, VC and others. Possible that he could get voted in, but more likely that he would be added as a reserve by coaches (if he made it at all).
Maybe Rondo...
Please Pax, don't trade Hughes! Just make sure that he stays injured until... 2010!!!
i'm gonna be packing the box for him , that's for sure
Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team.
-- Scottie Pippen
by Orlando Woolridge on Nov 12, 2008 8:39 AM CST up reply actions
Noc is on the ballot
lol
Our guys: Rose, Gordon, Deng, Noc.
I love it when the NBA marketing office tells teh NBA operations department what to do.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 12, 2008 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
Joe Johnson and Vince Carter can also be considered small forwards according to
the wiki on the 2007 All-Star game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_NBA_All-Star_Game
so even with the “legacy” votes, maybe Rose still has a chance.
by KentuckyBullsFan on Nov 12, 2008 1:51 AM CST reply actions
all the talk last summer about tyrus thomas
improving his game, his personality and his overall outlook about the game of basketball, cannot be measured in 8 games, i know i was hopeful, but the way it looks, he will be a bonafied underachiever also, like the olowakandis, the browns, the boguts. What is it with a high draft pick that the bulls can’t seem to have the luck since the great one was chosen 3rd overall back in 84. Should’ve stayed with LMA, should’ve selected Iggy. Please trade Tyrus soon cause big guys would dominate inside against us, i don’t care if he explodes dramatically in another team, he is a bust here, and his career will never ever blossom here, heck trade anyone, even the 72 million dollar man, and start building a real team aroud the great poohdini. this team just isn’t bound to win 50 this season..
when are we going to add a 7th championship?
by broseleay301 on Nov 12, 2008 2:05 AM CST reply actions
Actually the pick shoud have been
Brandon Roy, but we were so in love with our great guards. How about a back court of Rose and Roy, now that would be something to build on.
If they drafted Roy, it's likely they wouldn't have been in position to draft Rose
Not because they would have been so much better, but because 1 game difference in the standings either way could have kiboshed winning the lottery
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Let's not play the
“we should have drafted….” game. Especially when at the time there was no real complaints other than LMA.
??
I don’t get it? Roy went 6th or 7th in the draft. The debate was between him and Foye. Most people had Morrison Gay LMA and TT ahead of him.
The point isn't that we didn't know;
it’s that Paxson didn’t know who was better and Pritchard did. What’s even more embarrassing is that Paxson accepted Victor Khryapa to give Pritchard the choice he (Pax) wasn’t willing to make.
You don’t let opposing GMs make decisions for you. I don’t care if it’s a difficult decision; make it, and making it correctly, is your job.
That said, Derrick Rose is a clean slate for the franchise in the sense that he’s a talent you could build a champion around.
I just don’t know if I want Pax building it.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Pritchard knew?
He took Aldridge ahead of Roy? Sometimes it’s just luck. Why is that so hard to believe? Drafting is an inexact science, why is that not obvious to you. I guess Krause knew better when he drafted Michael Jordan over Sam Bowie. Oh wait….
it's Paxson's job to get it right
heck, drafting guys is one of the few things we can determine Paxson actually DOES. Now we can’t expect him to do that well either?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2008 12:19 PM CST up reply actions
No but we can't get mad when a player surprises
That’s like getting mad at Pax for not drafting Boozer or Arenas. The draft is a crapshoot. You just need to get the small choices right. In this year, for example, it was Rose or Beasley. So far it looks like he got that right. Would you say Pax screwed up if down the line Rose was a marginal player, but Brook Lopez really took off and was the best center in the NBA?
My point was if you wanted to complain they should have taken Aldridge, that makes sense. It came down to those 2. Roy wasn’t even in the picture.
I disagree
The draft does have some luck involved, but Paxson should be held accountable if Tyrus doesn’t pan out, in which case any other choice (Aldrige, Roy, Gay) would’ve been preferable regardless of position on the court. And Roy was a real prospect, his performance isn’t that surprising.
I’d feel the same way if Rose turned out to be marginal and not spectacular, absolutely.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2008 3:46 PM CST up reply actions
In all reality . . .
If you wanna think like that. Drafting Thomas and Noah and everyone else pretty much put us in the position to draft Rose.
I’m never gonna consider those mistakes cause look who it got us
I don't think that way
though it may be Paxson’s strategy in his performance review.
(wait, the Bulls don’t base anything on performance, only loyalty)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 1:42 PM CST up reply actions
He might want to ask his brother how that worked out
Though for all I know his brother could be the guy who’s doing Paxson’s review.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Nov 12, 2008 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
heh
just 20 minutes of high fives
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 1:45 PM CST up reply actions
If Tyrus can play as well as Bogut I'll be extremely satisfied
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Nov 12, 2008 1:10 PM CST up reply actions
Trade for Thomas and Noce for Kaman
to help us with defending the paint. Then at least we will have 3 good peices in Rose, Deng and Kaman to build around. Draft a 2 Guard who can play with Rose and pray that we can pry Bosh from the Raptors. That is our only hope fellas because Tyrus is not the answer he just does not have the skills.
Homecoming
by illwill on Nov 12, 2008 3:02 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Thabo +16
Gordon minus 13. I know that this blog is a Gordon manlovefest, but he is not a starting caliber player in the NBA. If you think otherwise you simply don’t know the game or you don’t actually watch the Bulls games.
Flash back to the end of the third quarter, Gordon nearly dribbles the ball off his leg out of bounds, Atlanta player touches the ball first, missing out on the steal. The Bulls inbound the ball Gordon immediately jacks up a wild three from the top of the key, airballs it badly, doesn’t make any effort to get back on defense, lets a man beat him down the floor for an easy fastbreak basket, then hammers him as he is laying the ball in. Typical Gordon sequence, except he normally wouldn’t have wasted the effort on the foul, instead he would have been in a hurry to get back up court after matadoring the defense on the fast break.
As I pointed out several times since his rookie season, Thabo may well be better suited to playing small forward, but he is starting to play like he did in the last qaurter of last season. Thabo may not be a starter either, but his overall floor game is vastly superior to anything that Gordon offers, since he has none whatsoever. Remember the first rule of the Hipocratic oathe, “At first, do no harm”. Gordon fails this test everytime.
As I said in the offseason we should have made a three way deal with Minnesota (3rd pick) and Memphis(5th pick) to get O.J. Mayo to be our starting 2 next to Rose, getting Kevin Love to Minnesota, and Bulls players to Memphis(any combination of Gordon, Hinrich, Gooden or Nocioni).
You are right about one thing.
This board is a Ben Gordon love fest.
Thabo played well last night and actually seems to have responded to the benching by playing more within his game…He may not be a starter, but he is doing more to help the team than Gordon.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
Could it be
that the real problem last night was Noah and Thomas? I only saw the second half, but it seemed to me that Gordon just had an average night. Which players have from time to time (cough DENG cough) and Gordon’s average night still contributes to the game. Thabo is just responding well to being in his correct role on the team: off the bench defensive stopper. Yay. Why that suddenly means Gordon is trash who doesn’t help the team I don’t know.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
You are right there.
The guards weren’t the problem this game. We were destoyed at PF and C again. The only reason they came back is that Hawks are dumb and benched Pachulia to move Marvin Williams to PF which allowed them to stay small.
good
Thabo has acquired the magical bench juice.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 9:33 AM CST up reply actions
Umm no
He may not be a starter, but he is doing more to help the team than Gordon.
Thabo is playing well, but Ben Gordon is better. Gordon is playing much better defense which was the primary supporting argument to play Thabo. Gordon also is an high level NBA scoring threat. He draws double teams. He’s passing much better this season.
The problems last night were playing Rose for 24 minutes in a row in the 2nd half when we should have taken him out 6mins into the 3rd, played Thabo at SG, Gordon at PG, to give Rose a rest and boost Thabo’s minutes. Then bring Rose back with 2 minutes remaining, rest Gordon, and attack defensively to create the transition opps.
It’s really not close. Ben Gordon is way better than Thabo.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 12, 2008 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
Seriously?
He may not be a starter, but he is doing more to help the team than Gordon.
That’s just ridiculous, especially considering BG is playing out of his mind offensively right now.
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Nov 12, 2008 1:11 PM CST up reply actions
You guys hate on me.
And you guys love Gordon, but the fact remains the Bulls have given up 108 pts/game, since moving him into the starting lineup, compared to <95 before…and they are 0-2 vs. 2-3. The team has been more successful with Thabo starting then Ben Gordon.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 12, 2008 11:11 PM CST up reply actions
to a Cavs team
who scored 107 two games earlier (when Ben DIDN’T start) and 108 to a Hawks team who was undefeated at the time and playing good basketball.
Let me guess…with Thabo or Kirk starting, those teams would’ve only scored 99 right?
Way to cherry pick a small sample size…and it’s bad cherry picking at that
by NormVanBeer on Nov 13, 2008 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah it's Gordon's fault LeBron James averaged 41 points in the two games?
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Nov 13, 2008 1:10 PM CST up reply actions
now, now
D2.0 is reveling in his outsider rebel status, lets not be a downer with facts. Hate don’t hurt him!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2008 1:11 PM CST up reply actions
I know the facts...I have them in front of me.
They gave up 106 to Cleveland and 113 to Atlanta with Gordon starting. They lost both games. In the other 6 games without Gordon starting, they were 3-3 and the only game they gave up more than 100 was the first Cleveland game.
I am not cherry picking anything, this is the only sample size I have to go on.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
I ate ice cream before my last two tests
and I got As both times. Clearly it’s the ice cream that did it
De gustibus non est disputandum
brain freezes wake up the brain
what flavor?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2008 3:32 PM CST up reply actions
chocolate chip cookie dough
in honor of Aaron Gray’s doughy physique
De gustibus non est disputandum
Facts that don't support Gordon
are all crazy here. That’s a lesson I learned a long time ago
With that said, it’s too early to draw those conclusions. The Lebron games had little to do with Gordon. And the Hawks were a loss because our bigs played horribly. I have no doubt the more minutes Gordon plays, the worse our defensive statistics will be. It’s just a matter of Gordon’s offense being able to offset them.
right, join the rebel forces
such honor!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2008 3:46 PM CST up reply actions
how is that not cherry picking???
You almost completely disregard the first cleveland game…“and the only game they gave up more than 100 was the first Cleveland game.” You say it like it’s an afterthought. The only reason you mentioned it was because we brought it up first.
They clearly lost to ATL because of Gordon. I love the way Noah held his own against Horford!
Gordon also
was -13 because he played out there early when Tyrus and Noah really did absolutely nothing….
Thabo played more when Noc was hitting his shots…
I think Gordon has proved he deserves a starting nod, his D has been there this year, his assists have been there this year, his scoring has been consistently good….
You can’t fault Ben (I had another good game) Gordon for the -13, the guys playing with him stunk tonight, especially early on.
by majoyenrac on Nov 12, 2008 9:00 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Also if you're going to bash players
Using +/- ratings is the stupidest metric ever to prove your point. Thabo could have been + simply because his teammates were hitting their shots, does that mean he’s a great player? Then you cherry pick plays where Gordon does something wrong?
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Nov 12, 2008 1:12 PM CST up reply actions
+/- in the long run is an extremely useful stat
but to pick any one game is not fair. Along with almost any other statistic.
Not really
Most other statistics are simply recordings of a player’s actions. If a guy shoots 1-10, that’s a recording of what he alone did. Obviously the play of the other guys on the court contributes, but the makes and the misses are attributable to that one player, his choices given the other guys on the court, and his ability to make them.
In that sense, a stat like shooting is an order of magnitude more telling than plus minus. If a guy has a +10, that’s a recording of what he and 17 other guys did on the court that night.
De gustibus non est disputandum
Basketball is a large part intangibles which is why +/- is extremely effective
It’s also the best measurement available for defense.
The makes and misses for a player are directly attributable to the other players on the court. I can’t believe you are the one to debate as a staunch supporter of BG starting with Rose. After all, it’s “all on Gordon or Rose to to make their own choices.”
Or do you think that Rose’s penetration might create more positive shot opportunites for Gordon at the 3pt line? That’s what +/- helps uncover
The guy with only an insult to reply
is the one most likely to be talking out of his ass. I guess the +/- doesn’t support your points so you view it as irrelevant.
I don't only have an insult to reply...
… but it’s the only sort of reply you merit with this nonsense. I’ll save serious, thoughtful replies for serious, thoughtful people.
De gustibus non est disputandum
Why is +/- bad?
I’ll give you an easier example to wrap around your mind. Hasheem Thabeet is the UCONN center. He averages like 6pts, 8reb, and 3.5 blocks a game. Sounds like a marginal player. But in reality he dominates games. He’s 7’3 and changes team’s entire offensive schemes. And though he only blocks 3.5 shots a game, he changes 15 or so. His number sdon’t show this though. But if you look at the +/- for his numbers, you will see how many fewer points UCONN allows when he is on the court.
What's Thabeet's +/-
Do you have a link for it?
And why does +/- tell the value of his blocks more than the number of shots he blocks. It seems I’d value his shotblocking just fine if I assume that for every shot he actually does block he probably alters several.
You seem to be saying the effect he has doesn’t show up in the tangible individual statistics, but then you point out tangible individual measurements that allow us to measure the effect. Averaging 4.5 blocks (especially against top flight competition) is a huge number. His size are huge numbers. So in fact, there are quite a few tangibles and no real need to resort to intangibles and using a stat that combines the effects of other players to much greater degrees.
De gustibus non est disputandum
Not true
because as noted, 6pts 8 reb and 3.5 blocks don’t produce a high value individual (PER). But his +/- is through the roof. I do not have the numbers, simply because I don’t know any sites that track it. But I can tell you with much certainty after watching many UCONN games that his +/- would show very well.
I chose Thabeet on purpose, because he is an extreme example. So the tangibles were easier to give in support of the point. But the fact is every player affects the game in ways that don’t show up on the stat sheet. +/- is by far the best balance of tangible and intangible stats combined.
So in summary... you're talking out of your ass.
You’re arguing in support of a statistical measure by imagining what you think it would be in a case that you admit think is tilted to the extreme. And that, more importantly, doesn’t actually exist.
I mean… my god, man.
De gustibus non est disputandum
you're trying to say a well respected statistical measurement
is false. If anyone is talking out of their ass it’s you. There’s another great post on +/- here. Check it out and maybe you can point out how stupid it is there.
It's a fine metric, but cherry picking small sample sizes is ridiculous to prove a point
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Nov 12, 2008 9:29 PM CST up reply actions
How about we stop referencing + / - so authoritatively?
We’ve already seen eight games with one team alone that says you can throw this out the window. Sure, it’s nice to look at.
by messwiththebull on Nov 12, 2008 7:03 PM CST up reply actions
We can for past seasons
for individual games it is pretty pointless.
In the long run,
they’re Gordon may fit Rose better than our Gordon, since I think Ben views himself – at least in part – as a point guard. Their Gordon is bigger and more physically explosive.
But he’s a loooooooooong way away.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
I agree
That Tyrus especially (though Noah wasn’t too great either) looked really really bad tonight. Sure Tyrus has had games where his shot selection was poor and it made him ineffective, but he was just GODAWFUL tonight…..I think it’s the worst game we’ve seen from him this season. His defense, which is normally at least adequate on nights when his offense is off, was atrocious and his offense wasn’t much better…..
What’s Vinny to do? Gooden was needed tonight, which is quite sad when we have 2 athletic bigs playing against their athletic bigs, but god our bigs just looked like college players against the Hawks.
Horford was incredible tonight. It was surprising that he broke a career high (which was 20) considering just how much he dominated….then again it served notice that athletic, motivated bigs will completely outmatch our bigs…..really really disappointing.
I agree that Thabo played well tonight (and agree that he can’t make a shot)….
And I also agree that against the speedy and athletic Hawks, Aaron Gray wasn’t a good move, though for Vinny’s sake he had to try something….
Rose played well tonight…..he made a few defensive blunders, but that’s fine for a rookie…..Mike Bibby looked like vintage Bibby though.
And I completely disagree about your Nocioni bashing, without Noc out there we would have lost by 40 points tonight, his D was there, he was hitting key shots, he was motivating our guys. Noc was a big key to keeping this game close.
FInally while the game overall was a disappointment, and if we had Kirk out there, I think Bibby would have been slowed in the 4th after he hit his first 3, it was nice to see Deng (who really had a great defensive game, really a good defensive game, and was active all night) played up to his contract, and Gordon really made me wisht he Bulls did just resign him…..
We proved we can beat a good team (and the Hawks folks, at least right now seem to be a good team) tonight. I hope our guys watch the film and hope the coaching staff can drill into Noah and especially Tyrus, how to play and not look lost. For as athletic as Horford and Williams are, Tyrus is a shade better, and yet Tyrus looked like a freshman tonight not a 3rd year pro, that might have been his worst game of his career (And he’s had a few stinkers in there)….
jeeeeeeeeez
again with calling out ‘Noc bashing’. Get over it. Do you think he played well? say so. That’s what I did!
(I also included some backlash for Noc Grabowskis…but, um, I don’t follow my own rules)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 9:35 AM CST up reply actions
This doesn't seem favorable
"Such a combined suckfest means that Vinny feels the need (shortsidedly or not) to rely heavily on Nocioni, who played a manageable 31 minutes but it included the final 18 minutes of the game. "
Noc played great and his minutes were deserved. I don’t know how you can say it otherwise….
That sure sounds like a bash. And I was commenting on that point and saying that his 31 minutes were necessary to give us a chance in this game. Who else was going to play the last 18 minutes? Tyrus? Not after he was playing? Gooden—he’s hurt….Gray, too slow….
I don't think Noc can play 18 mintues straight
he should’ve been given a breather in that time. Yes, Tyrus could come back in.
But I can’t really argue with you, you said Noc’s ‘D was there’ and he was ‘motivating guys’. To which I say: No, and who cares? They lost anyway, and I still say that in general if Noc is playing that much consecutive time it’ll eventually catch up with the team.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 10:03 AM CST up reply actions
Did you see Noc showing signs of fatigue?
I don’t want him playing 18 minutes in a row because I know he’s going to produce less with more consecutive time, but we didn’t have much option.
Short short “Noc is productive” version: The 18 consecutive minutes are fine as long as they’re almost all against the opponent’s 2nd unit or the tail end of playing time for the 1st unit.
A bigger problem than Noc’s 18 consecutive minutes, Rose’s 24 consecutive minutes.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 12, 2008 10:13 AM CST up reply actions
well I feel differently about this than some
but no matter how bad Tyrus plays he can’t be banished for poor play. It was his time to get back in the game, get him back in. He has to play. There’s the option right there.
And I’m a little miffed that Noc is the flag-waver for transition defense, when he’s blown more than a few assignments himself. Though I suppose from his end it’s not a question of effort, just not being good enough.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 10:19 AM CST up reply actions
Nice to see you backpedalling a little
even if they’re baby steps. Noc is a very good SEVENTH man, his role. TT is a horseshit 2nd pick so far. I said it several times before and you gave me a “bleh”: he needs short stints with simple goals and immediate feedback. You can’t take off his training wheels and roll him down the mountain unless you’re trying to kill him. Either lazy or slow, either way, the staff needs to put him in remedial mode.
by California Al on Nov 12, 2008 6:59 PM CST up reply actions
Noc
defended Horford better than Noah, Gray, or TT. Says a lot about the state of our young bigs.
Hopefully
just a bad game as our young bigs (Noah especially) looked very solid against the Cavs (and Big Z…..Wallace doesn’t count). I know Varejao had a nice stat line, but he also was hitting shots that he normally can’t hit and the Bulls did the best to give him mostly only those shots.
Hope they review the tape and get these guys motivated…..it seems Noah and Thomas partied a bit too hard the night before. We’ve seen better adn they’ve rarely been that bad.
Point about Noc.
But that’s really not his fault, it’s on Thomas and Noah to man those frontcourt spots. Heck, Josh Smith wasn’t even playing tonight.
The team played great. Gray played as expected. Noah played as expected (sadly isnt a scorer).
The problem is Tryus. I’m not getting into it.
by chicago-homesick-blues on Nov 12, 2008 8:39 AM CST reply actions
when did matt flip-flop on bg?
if I remember correctly, a couple of seasons ago he was also a Gordon hater. Now he has become a Gordon apologist b’cos he can score (albeit very streakily). Trust me, BG will never change, and to make matters worse, he now thinks he can dribble.
I am so tired of this team being a bunch of jump shooting midgets. Pax has done a pathetic job, for how many years have we been talking about getting a post player? Rose is a star and Lu and Noah are quality players, the rest are just plain mediocre at best.
by bullsfaninbigapple on Nov 12, 2008 9:07 AM CST reply actions
noah has a long way to go
i wasn’t convinced when we drafted him and i’m still not. he and tyrus were awful last night.
Noah's having a sophomore slump this year, I think.
From the pot to the being out of shape to the not hustling back on defense [hustle IS his game!]. Hopefully he recovers in the sedon half or something, but right now I’m not feeling it.
i'm out of town on a business trip
which means, no televised games for me this week…not to mention the Internet connection in my hotel absolutely sucks…so I’ll be a box score junkie.
My initial thoughts after reading the articles this morning and looking at the box score: “Damn we need a frontcourt!”
Did it really LOOK as bad as the box score showed?
It depends on how bad you think it is to get posterized by a guy named Zaza
De gustibus non est disputandum
It was bad. Here are the reasons why.
1) Lack of hustle: Al Horford and Zaza were just hustling end to end. Stacey called it the “paint to paint sprint” for bigs whereas as soon as the Hawks grabbed the defensive rebound Zaza and/or Horford would just sprint from their paint to the Bulls paint, beat their man down court, and establish position in the paint, wait for the ball to catch up with them for the easy feed down low for laups, dunks, or and 1 attempts. The Hawks ran us into the ground with this strategy.
2) The Hawks look really good defensively. Stacey said they are walking around with a new swagger. Vinny said the team is obvsiously feeding of eachother’s energy to yield great basketball. It’s actually fun to watch because it is such great team basketball. They play team defense about as good as the Celtics were last year(At least they appeared this good, part of it is our rushed offense). They go get the basketball wherever it is. If the Hawks are healthy they look like a good shot at making the EC finals.
3) Tyrus, Noah, and Gray just couldn’t keep up with the hustling Hawks. Horford had a career night, but it was really made possible by his hustle and the Hawks passing. If tyrus, Noah, and Gray hustle back on defense it’s unlikely the Hawks can rush the offense for transition hoops. They get forced into the half court and Joe Johnson gets 25 points on 25 shot attempts(A losing strategy).
4) We didn’t play Thabo enough. +16 on the night, 3stsl, 2blck, was highly effective guarding joe johnson. The killers came from Johnson passing to an open Bibby who seemed to make every shot off the pass from Johnson.
We’re in a tough stretch here because we’re playing good teams with a short roster. We’re only playing 8 men. We’re going to lose lots of games only playing 8 guys and Rose 40+ minutes a night. With Gooden down we’re guaranteed to play Noc at the 4 who has to foul whenever a guard gets by his man an into the paint. Matt harps on Noc’s 5 fouls, but 2 of them were fouls he had to take because a Hawk guard beat his man and was in the paint for a layup. Another of Noc’s fouls was to stop a fast break after poor shooting from Luol Deng. Big surprise there.
It appears the good scouts are telling their clubs to make their front court hustle against us. The Hawks did this really well. You need good defense to make it work because if the shots fall the refs will slow down the possesion changes by holding the basketball for a few seconds prior to the inbounds pass.
There is no excuse for Tyrus not running hard to change ends. Ditto for Noah. Gray is large and takes a while to get to 5th gear. Playing him is a liability unless we shoot really well from the field.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 12, 2008 10:00 AM CST up reply actions
agreed on that
they beat Gray because he is slow as hell, but Tyrus and Noah shouldn’t have been beat that often.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 10:05 AM CST up reply actions
Did i say 5th?
Oops. I meant 3rd.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 12, 2008 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
Do we know Gooden is our 2nd best PER player right now?
We need him badly on nights when Tyrus dresses, but mentally is on vacation.
The Hawks should have blown us out last night. The only reasons why the game was closer was because of Rose getting to the free throw line after Hawk shot attempts to get the rebound that surely was going to fall back to the Hawks and Nocioni’s 3pt shooting off the bench. He made the shots, but the Hawks were defending him poorly. Woodson called two timeouts after Noc’s rotations left him wide open at the top of the circle for 3pt makes.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
yeah, I don't like Gooden playing 35+ minutes
but they do absolutely need him…and hoping that he doesn’t take mental vacations on the same night :)
PeachTreeHoops points out that the Hawks likely would’ve killed the Bulls if they just left Zaza in the game instead of going small to match the Bulls. Coaches be coachin’.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 10:15 AM CST up reply actions
We really don't have to double team Zaza in the paint
to create easy assist opportunities for him.
I couldn’t beleive we doubled Zaza. what the hell?
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 12, 2008 10:17 AM CST up reply actions
Thomas was not playing him correctly
He’s not so weak that he can’t stand his ground against Pachulia. He was willingly giving up position so he could let Zaza shoot and then he’d try and block it. Awful idea.
Though I’m guessing a few times he wouldn’t have gotten position in the first place if he was down the court faster, or fronted him, or something…
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
Did you hear Noah yell at Tyrus?
“Don’t JUMP.”
This was after Zaza’s third pivot shot fake(tyrus jumps) pivot layup.
Rose stepped in to play arbitrator.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 12, 2008 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
heck, he even jumped against Ben Wallace the game before
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 10:29 AM CST up reply actions
i saw that as well
I was at the Cavs game…we were counting how many times Tyrus would jump at the ball fake. He needs to lose that whole “I can block everything” mentality
by NormVanBeer on Nov 12, 2008 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
Maybe it's time
to see if Tyrus is better suited trying to adjust to SF.
um, no.
why get him even farther from the basket.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 12:52 PM CST up reply actions
The point is he can take
smaller players in the post. It’s easier to talk him into playing inside when he doesn’t have a 6’9 250 pound Pachulia there to push him around.
this is just silly
tyrus has no post game. His best offense is to drive or on putbacks. His ability to drive would be seriously limited playing against guys who are quicker and use to guarding people on the perimeter. He can’t shoot from distance, he is a terrible ball handler and doesn’t move or cut on offense. In fact, he doesn’t do anything you ask a small forward to do. Do you really want to see a line up of Gray-Gooden-Tyrus? C’mon.
Tyrus could have pushed Zaza out farther from the basket, the problem is, he chose not to, because he is trying to bait people and block every shot. Tyrus problem wasn’t strength alone, it was mainly him employing a dumb strategy.
I suppose we could just ask the other team to go small so Tyrus will have an advantage :)
De gustibus non est disputandum
a couple of times
during the Cavs game, you could literally hear players yelling at Tyrus when he came to set the screen “cut, cut!!”.
He would come to set the screen and then just stand there. No pick and roll…no pick and pop…just pick and stand.
Do you think that perhaps
Tyrus doesn’t post because he always at a size disadvantage????
i've never seen Tyrus make a post move
and neither have you. I don’t believe he can post guys smaller than him because he has never demonstrated the patience, motor control, moves, hook shot or turnaround jumper that a post player has. if you can make a post move, you can post guys who are bigger than you. Tyrus is 6’9, he isn’t undersized. I say again, do you want Noah-Gooden-Tyrus on the floor together? He doesn’t play well in space. He isn’t a small forward
What?!?!
His first two years he actually posted up somewhat regularly. He had like a mini dropstep jumper move.
His height isn’t what makes him undersized. It’s his rail thin body. I suppose Kevin Durant is a PF too?
He’s clearly a tweener to me. Right now his body doesn’t translate well to the PF. With a little skill development, he can become a better SF. In fact, if you take the two players he compares best to, Shawn Marion and Josh Smith, you will find guys who started out in the league as SFs and as their careers progressed moved over to the PF position
you just proved my point
Marion and Smith both play PF. They have played their best years at PF. And both are smaller than Thomas. Plus, he doesn’t have perimeter skills remotely comparable to those two guys. And neither guy ever posts.
And if he posted up regularly his first two years at PF, than why he can’t continue to do that.
Sports2 is right. You talk out of your ass.
by DangerMouse on Nov 12, 2008 10:11 PM CST up reply actions
why can't he continue to post up at the 4...
by DangerMouse on Nov 12, 2008 10:12 PM CST up reply actions
He was unsuccessful with it is why I guess?
I don’t know for sure though. He’s changed his entire game from the first 2 years til now. I think it’s a mental issue for Tyrus. I assume he was getting pushed out of position by bigger PFs and decided that wasn’t his best chance to score. And since he had only one or two moves, it was easier for big players to take that away.
your "never" comment is quite a bit...
…of the ass-talking variety and speaks more to your observation skills.
Sizes
Marion 6’7 228
Josh Smith 6’9 240
Tyrus 6’9 215
If you want a size comparison for Tyrus, look at him vs. Rudy Gay. They are virtually identical in size. Check out the links below. Does anyone believe Rudy Gay should be playing PF?
do you really think Rudy Gay
and Tyrus Thomas have comparable skills? Do those guys even remotely have the same skill set?
You are contradicting yourself. You say don’t judge guys just by size (i.e. Durant not being a power forward) than you compare Thomas and Gay to one another based solely on size. I can see nothing else in common between the two.
Plus Gay, just like Smith and Marion, doesn’t have a post game.
You were right the first time, Smith and Marion are the two closest comparisons and both play better at the 4 but without going to the post.
When Tyrus gets the ball on the block, he wants to face up and drive. He has been doing that since college. You don’t need a size advantage to play in the post. See Paul Milsap, Carl Landry or Carlos Boozer. You do need a modicum of post skills, of which tyrus doesn’t possess.
by DangerMouse on Nov 13, 2008 12:51 PM CST up reply actions
So Carlos Boozer should post up Shaq
It doesn’t matter how great Boozers post skills are, if he is outsized he is outsized. Now if Boozer matched up with Marvin Williams the story would be different. You need to put players in a position to win. Tyrus might be more effective posting up smaller 3s until he grows further into his body.
"grows further into his body"
he is the same age as Josh Smith. ugh… whatever
you are right
tyrus is a small forward. No one sees it but you.
if all that is prevent tyrus from being effective is
10 pounds, than he needs to find a weight room. Kirilenko, another player more effective at PF is listed at only 225 lbs as well.
I've seen it
though not this year.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2008 9:16 AM CST up reply actions
99 times out of 100
When tyrus gets the ball on the low block, he is going to try to beat his man off the dribble or shoot a jumper. He doesn’t try to back his guy in, pass it out, re-post, etc. He has never been effective doing that. I don’t think moving him to the 3 would make him more effective
everyone was yelling at Tyrus
i saw BG and Rose say something to him after he set “screens” for them. And by screen I mean he approached their defender, stood still for a second, than half-heartedly jogged towards the basket. that was the worst game I’ve seen Tyrus play. Worse than his Boston effort because at least in Boston, he showed some effort. That display last night by Tyrus was the definition of FUGLY.
by DangerMouse on Nov 12, 2008 11:14 AM CST up reply actions
It's unfortunate...
That what is probably a severe change in coaching style hasn’t helped anyone reach Tyrus in terms of IQ or consistent effort.
I suppose inconsistent minutes can make a guy mopey, but if this is his reaction when they give him minutes(even if it was because Gooden was out)… I say thanks but no thanks.
More than that, he’s undersized… I think it’s likely that that fact alone will stand in the way of getting him to stop relying on his hops for his D.
I don't think he's undersized for a 4
He was guarding Zaza, who’s a center.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 11:23 AM CST up reply actions
Well...
It’s not only size, but strength and weight, and that goes far beyond a bad matchup with a seven-footer. They guy weighs 215 pounds. That’s the same as Sefolosha, who is two inches shorter.
For instance, against an Al Horford, he’s giving up 25 pounds(and an inch). For most NBA players, that weight difference is going to be a strength difference(except, of course, and I’m mentioning his name to make NBAObserver happy, Eddy Curry, in which case the difference is spending his per diem at Burger King).
I am by no means saying that he can’t learn to play defense or that shorter players can’t have success guarding bigger ones. I guess what I meant is, he’s trying to compensate for other shortcomings by overusing what he’s good at instead of buying into what the coaching staff(hopefully) is telling him about body position, etc when playing defense. He may, as a player, feel that his only recourse against getting out-muscled is to out-hop, and getting players to accept short-term failure in order to achieve long-term success can be a difficult thing to do.
And don’t worry – I also in NO WAY advocate Ty playing SF, if that failed experiment is the ultimate source of your objection. :)
do you think Tyrus and Sefolosha weigh the same?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 12:53 PM CST up reply actions
Now, I know people fudge height/weight on rosters...
But on espn.com they’re both listed at 215.
I could counter with “do you really think Ty is 6’9”?
:)
Here's the link...
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/roster?team=chi
Also
http://www.nba.com/bulls/roster/
If having The Logo there makes you feel better.
Yep
Not a surprise, though, I’d expect 2s and 3s to have weigh a reasonably comparable amount.
by messwiththebull on Nov 12, 2008 7:11 PM CST up reply actions
Except...
Ty is supposedly a 4.
Thanks for proving my point for me.
Tyrus can body guard Zaza
He was trying to bait Zaza into putting up a soft hook or a soft jumper so he could block the shot. Zaza saw this coming and adjusted with the pivot shot fake. Tyrus was even steping back UNDERNEATH his own basket to get a shot block.
This is god awful defense. You never yield space by moving underneath your own basket. It’s like a keeper in soccer protecting the net from inside the goal. It’s just awful.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 12, 2008 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
That jumping is on the coaches.
Either they are encouraging Tyrus to be a shotblocker inside, which when is effective is a good thing…or they are failing to admonish him for making the mistake of jumping at ball fakes by ridiculously bad shooters. Either way, the coaching staff needs to recognize this is a problem and fix it…If the problem is Tyrus can’t play the way the coaches say (the problem last season), then he deserves to be benched.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
I'm going to get yelled at by Jaina(and others), but... Hughes and Simmons for Zach Randolph
First time post. Hear me out.
First of all, this trade will be accepted. Hughes comes off the books just in time for the LeBron Sweepstakes to begin, and the Knicks are desperately trying to move Randolph to get a shot at him. Even though he’s playing well, I doubt that they’ve given up on their LeBron plans.
Second, having Hughes come off the books doesn’t help us get better. It simply puts us back at even with the salary cap(we’re 12 over right now, and do you really want to let both Gooden and Gordon go? Even if we let one of them go, the remaining 6 mil below the cap won’t fix us at PF).
Third, everyone is going to say “but he doesn’t play any defense”. News, everyone: this is not a defensive team anymore. When we’re at our best, we’re a running team. Maneuver to get some backups who play D and board – those aren’t hard to find. Besides, something makes up for his defensive problems…
19 and 13. Every game, pretty much. 18/20 foot range on his J with the height to get it off inside the 3pt line(sorry Noc, I love you, you have the best chemistry with Rose, but you’re OK at PF but not big enough to start there). Name me a player in the frontcourt(PF/C) on the Bulls roster who can do that even 2 of every 5 games. That will make our offense work better, especially for Rose and Gordon, who will actually have an option if opposing defenses decide to clog the lane with their forwards. I would much rather watch Zbo sink 15 foot jumpers off a Rose/Gordon dime than watch Gordon fall on his face because he has nowhere to go while Ty or Noah stand idly by 15.
I do enjoy it when Rose tosses up and makes a ridiculous shot over 3 guys, though. Note to BG: defer to Rose.
This is getting rambly, so I’ll summarize: 19 and 13 at PF while giving up only Hughes, a schmoe, and maybe a draft pick(like we need more of those). I think it makes us a contender, and fills our biggest hole, easy style.
Now feel free to yell at me.
Where's the evidence the Knicks are shopping Randolph?
The evidence that did exist is outdated. Randolph is playing well in D’Antoni ball. He’s not going anywhere.
If D’Antoni gets into the playoffs it will be a remarkable success. The Knicks will make a lot more money even if they get bounced in 4 straight games.
Curry is available. But he’s just an easy player to defeat in the game of basketball.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 12, 2008 10:16 AM CST up reply actions
Well...
I remember hearing infinite stories about how they were shopping him to get his contract off the books but had no takers, not because they thought he was a bad player, more because they wanted the cap room for LeBron.
I don’t think that goes away even with success; no one ever argued that Randolph doesn’t have talent…but he’s not going to get you there on his own.
Besides, Donnie Walsh runs that team now, not Dolan, and he takes the long view.
Would he rather have 3 years of Zbo or see LeBron in D’Antoni’s offense?
I also never brought up Curry, nor would I ever. shudder
Randolph was shopped
The Knicks didn’t like any of the offers for him. He’s not being shopped now unless the Curry rumors are just attempts to draw in offers that can be countered with offering Randolph instead.
i really doubt this because Curry is so bad that you can’t trade Randolph now unless a player coming back is another low post scoring threat.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 12, 2008 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
You have to mention Curry
if you’re moving Randolph in a trade with no low post scoring coming back. They play Randolph at center right now. No Randolph and Curry out of shape would mean David Lee plays center for the Knicks.
Trades have to consider the remaining and incoming roster if they really want to be taken seriously.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 12, 2008 11:38 AM CST up reply actions
Now, if you link me to an article to the contrary...
I’ll believe you, but from what I was reading at the time, the Knicks were having more trouble finding any offers, period, at least ones that gave them cap space in 2010, which was, from the start, their stated goal.
Also, going by your logic, teams don’t usually look to trade a player for another at the same position. So by trading Randolph, and knowing, obviously, from the start that Curry was going to be a dog-house guy for D’Antoni, they were clearly saying that he was worth more to them off the team than on the team, at the time.
You don’t have to tell me how trades work, I’m not John Paxson.
And “Don’t say Curry” was a joke – simply because, as a basketball player, I hate him.
Welcome, Jackson.
I wouldn’t mind that deal. At least Z-bo is an established NBA PF with skills (post-game, rebounding). The trouble is, in the long run, it’s a lateral move. We lose 2010 flexibility and basically give our power-forward position to a flawed player.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
I guess my point about the cap was...
As it stands, to have any real cap room, we’d have to let both Gooden and Gordon go – Hughes just brings us back to even with the salary cap. We’re also going to have to re-sign Sefolosha, if we want to.
The only other way would be to move an expensive piece for another expiring contract. Noc/Hinrich/Deng/a resigned BG. I think moving Hinrich or Gordon makes the most sense, but are teams going to give up cap room to commit long-term to either of those choices? Hinrich obviously can’t be traded because he’s injured, but even when he comes back, he’s virtually untradeable this season.
Just shows you the corner Pax backed himself into. Backed us into.
Speaking as a Blazer fan
If you want to poison your locker room, if you like gunplay on your team, if you need a new MVP of topless bar attendance, if you want a crushing expensive contract, if you need a new weed connection in town – Zach’s your man.
Besides, he’s playing center for the Knicks. You’d probably have to give up Noah and one of your guards to get him at this point.
I see where you were going with that idea – but it’s not good. Back away slowly from the Trade Machine. – Elgin.
All the kids who played the blues would learn my licks with a bottleneck slide. - Richard Palmer-James
I'd hang out with Z-Bo
but I’m also a scumbag.
by messwiththebull on Nov 12, 2008 7:13 PM CST up reply actions
Haha
Yes, those are valid points, certainly. I’d go for 1 of those 5 traits, though.
Point is this team isn’t going to be a contender until they get someone in the post who is good for at least 15 points a game and can also rebound to make things easier for our drive and kick game. We can’t sign a free agent, and with Kirk out and having had a bad season last year, our trade options are dwindling, not to mention the fact that a skilled forward is the most premium position in basketball and carries a high price… it’s just frustrating that we passed on opportunities to get that sort of player(draft Aldridge, pay Minnesota’s price for KG, etc)…although of course that’s a slippery slope because we don’t get Rose if all that happens…
I am just having a hard time seeing how we acquire that player any time soon unless we just get lucky again with the lottery(I don’t think we’ll even be in it) or Isiah Thomas gets hired as a GM again(not happening). There is always Chris Wallace in Memphis, though. Meh.
Dwyer
He may turn out to be Red Auerbach, nobody has any way of knowing, but at this point Bulls coach Vinny Del Negro is in way, way over his head.
Vinny, the small lineups are killing you. They may do well offensively at times, but the good coaches get good offense out of lineups that struggle initially, and at least know what’s going on defensively. But running three guards plus two small forwards (Andres Nocioni and Luol Deng), or any number of ridiculous lineups that forces Nocioni to try and switch on everyone defensively while still doing the rebounding work of a center is going to get destroyed.
Atlanta just moved the ball until it found an open shot, and either nailed the shot (Mike Bibby and Maurice Evans hit five three-pointers in the face of the flailing undersized lineup in the fourth), or waited for Al Horford to out-jump two 6-3 guys and pull in an offensive rebound. Six offensive boards (17 overall) for Horford, who just dominated the Chicago interior.
I get on Andres Nocioni a lot because he takes too many chances defensively (but gets absolved by the media for his “hustle,” even as his guy is sticking an 18-footer some 30 feet away from Noc) and because he’s way too shot-happy on the other end, but Del Negro is putting this guy in a miserable position.
Nocioni has to switch on every screen and roll with these small lineups, and much like an offense trying to drag a shot-blocking center away from the paint, Nocioni has to come out on a guy like Joe Johnson mainly because he’s the same size, with Chicago forgetting (of course) that Nocioni might be the biggest guy on the court for the Bulls at the time.
So he has to dash back inside as the ball goes up, he can’t box anyone out (even if he could, this guy isn’t a power forward; much less a center) because of it, and a long offensive rebound results.
And the two Chicago bigs — Joakim Noah and Tyrus Thomas — were miserable.
I think he buried the lead, Vinny felt he had to go small BECAUSE Tyrus and Noah were terrible. But going small is still dumb, and Vinny does it even when Tyrus/Noah aren’t terrible, so…
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 10:33 AM CST reply actions
gah
Noc, Deng, Thabo, Gordon, Rose
Holy crap!
My question is did Vinny go small because Tyrus and Noah were ineffective or did he go small because tyrus and Noah just couldn’t change ends fast enough.
I like Dwyer, but with this teeny tiny ball 5 man the Bulls yielded 3 offensive rebounds and the unit was a +1 running the foul clock offense late. We flipping killed the Hawks on the glass in the 4th quarter. We were +11 in the 4th quarter rebounding.
Maybe Dwyer just had a bad night. The stats contradict his opinion.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 12, 2008 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah I perceived them getting creamed on the boards
but they really weren’t. I wonder how many of those boards were tips after they couldn’t finish at the rim :)
And I dunno, it’s always a bad idea. Even if it works, it means you’ll see more of it, which means it ultimately doesn’t work.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
I'll get hammered for this, but...
… isn’t a situation like this why Michael Ruffin is going to be paid three quarters of a million dollars this year by the Chicago Bulls?
For that matter, I see no downside at all in trying out Cedric Simmons. I expect very little from a guy who seems to be so completely buried on our bench, but in the few minutes I’ve seen the guy is athletic as all get out. If he did nothing but run his ass off and put his body on the right man he would have been an upgrade to what we got last night.
De gustibus non est disputandum
Ruffin's hurt.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
Well what fucking good is he then? Shit.
More fuel for the Cedric Simmons bandwagon then.
De gustibus non est disputandum
veteran leadership something!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 1:19 PM CST up reply actions
All Simmons has to do is run
So yes it would have been nice to put him out there. It clearly would have allowed us to play Noc at the 3 and Thabo at the 2 so Gordon or Rose could catch a breather.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 12, 2008 1:09 PM CST up reply actions
Run, make a layup, put a body on people and get rebounds.
He should be able to do all of those things as a backup for short stretches. And for some reason whenever we put a scrub like that in they actually can finish their layups and do the basic things you’d with your real players could do regularly. It is getting annoying that our real players can’t seem to though.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
I disagree
I think if he did do those things, he wouldn’t have been a passed-around guaranteed contract his whole career. Maybe Gray destroys him in practice :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 1:35 PM CST up reply actions
He was a lottery pick...
Who has never been given minutes…I think the point is that our bigs were sucking last night to such a point that Del Negro thought Noc and Deng were bigs when we had a healthy PF sitting on the bench, to run, jump, and take up space inside…surely he could have fouled Horford with some authority at least.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
yeah I know, and Thabo's a real player too
Simmons was picked 15th, not in the lottery. He actually played a bit (12 mpg) his rookie year, putting up a PER of 8.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 2:22 PM CST up reply actions
ugh, I know. :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 4:02 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah right, not lottery.
A guy who has logged 653 career NBA minutes is not a known quantity. Thabo, by comparison, has played over 2400 career minutes.
Whatever, its not like I care if he plays or not…I just think Vinny was being retarded last night playing Luol/Noc at center/pf…if he was sending a message to Tyrus by keeping him on the bench, there were better alternatives to trying to win than his ridiculous lineups.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
I don't like the passing
Cleveland traded to get him to start last season. So they actually wanted him. They could have traded for Hilton Armstrong, but they wanted Simmons. By the time Varejao was back Simmons just didn’t play at all.
I don’t play him at all if Gooden is healthy. However, Gooden is not so why is Simmons sitting over there when you can see our bigs getting beat changing ends.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 12, 2008 2:43 PM CST up reply actions
"They could have traded for Hilton Armstrong, but they wanted Simmons."
do you have evidence of this?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
Anecdotal fist pumping evidence
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 12, 2008 2:52 PM CST up reply actions
is it too much to ask for you not to make stuff up?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 3:00 PM CST up reply actions
Hilton barely played then
and barely plays now and yet the Hornets still signed Melvin Ely to back up Chandler. Hornets making a move to dump salary did happen.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 12, 2008 5:52 PM CST up reply actions
Why put
Simmons out there to run, when Aaron Gray was still at half court running after a flying Al Horford (who hit a layup)…..
What’s the sense in that, let’s just keep the lugging behemouth not suited as much for the modern/quick NBA in against a team that is playing well in the modern, small-ball run NBA style….
Atlanta looked better
with Horford at PF and Zaza at center. They typically play Horford at center and Josh Smith at PF.
They went small to match us which was a mistake. They were better playing Zaza with Horford and would not have yielded a net -11 rebounding disadvantage in the 4th quarter.
In a trust with Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Nov 12, 2008 2:45 PM CST up reply actions
Even "going small" Horford and Marvin were quite a bit bigger than our guys.
De gustibus non est disputandum
it's the coachey response to seeing them go small
go smaller!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 3:06 PM CST up reply actions
They
looked even better when it was Tyrus and Gray against Horford and ZaZa because Tyrus played lost and Gray was too slow.
Kenny Thomas is available...
Seriously, I’m counting on this team to deliver wins while my Kings rebuild. You guys are supposed to be my outpost for “real” NBA basketball right now. Get those big doofusses (doofus’?…doofi?) in gear, will you?
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
oof, many apologies.
you made a bad choice if you were hoping for that. They’ll get better though :)
Larry Hughes is available…
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 12, 2008 3:30 PM CST up reply actions
mmm...tempting
We’ll call you right after we hire Isiah as GM.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
You picked the worst team possible
At least root for the Grizzlies, they are fun and acknowledge their crapiness!
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Nov 12, 2008 9:36 PM CST up reply actions
can we get
BRANDON BASS or maybe PAUL MILLSAP?
when are we going to add a 7th championship?
by broseleay301 on Nov 12, 2008 10:52 PM CST reply actions
NO?!?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 13, 2008 9:17 AM CST up reply actions
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