Some thoughts on Noah
I haven't written much about Noah, and part of the reason for that is I don't feel like I have a good handle on what he'll become. Part of the problem is that there's no one to compare him to. He's basically a freak as a player. Guys built like Noah don't handle the ball the way he does, and they usually are more natural shotblockers than Noah. Noah actually had a very similar rookie season to that of his college teammate All Horford. They had the same TS% to go along with similar TO%s, USG%s, and PERs. Which shouldn't be surprising considering how similar their college stats were. But, it's so much easier to envision what Horford will become because he's a much more conventional player. If I had to compare Noah to any player right now, that player would probably be Ben Wallace. The other part of the problem is that his performance in some key areas varied dramatically during his rookie season. I'm not sure, which is the real Noah, yet.
Noah's season can be pretty easily divided into three time periods. Two months where he was he played limited minutes. Two months where he mostly came off the bench playing about 20 minutes per game, and two months where he started.
| Per 32 Min | G | GS | MPG | FG | FGA | FT | FTA | ORB | DRB | AST | STL | BLK | TOV | PF | PTS | FG% | FT% | TS% |
| Nov/Dec | 23 | 0 | 12.2 | 3.5 | 8.4 | 3.6 | 4.7 | 4.1 | 3.9 | 1.9 | 1.9 | 1.7 | 1.8 | 4.6 | 10.7 | 41.9 | 78.0 | 51.1 |
| Jan/Feb | 27 | 8 | 20.9 | 3.6 | 7.6 | 2.0 | 3.7 | 3.6 | 5.9 | 2.0 | 1.2 | 0.9 | 2.0 | 3.5 | 9.3 | 47.8 | 53.8 | 50.1 |
| Mar/Apr | 24 | 23 | 28.7 | 3.8 | 7.4 | 3.1 | 4.1 | 3.5 | 4.8 | 1.5 | 1.4 | 1.5 | 1.7 | 3.3 | 10.7 | 51.6 | 76.1 | 58.4 |
| Season | 74 | 31 | 20.7 | 3.7 | 7.7 | 2.8 | 4.0 | 3.6 | 5.1 | 1.8 | 1.4 | 1.3 | 1.9 | 3.6 | 10.2 | 48.2 | 69.1 | 53.9 |
There were definitely many positive signs in Noah's rookie season to go along with the question marks. He led the team in adjusted +/- at plus 5.6 points. The team was 4 points better on defense with Noah on the floor. And his offensive rebounding helped to at least keep his offensive impact neutral. It was a solid rookie season, but I'm not sure if it suggests greater things to come or merely more of the same.
I mentioned Ben Wallace before. Noah wasn't similar to a 22 or 23 year old Ben Wallace. He was similar to the Ben Wallace that played for the Bulls last year. In all of the categories where Ben Wallace was supposed to be a difference maker, Noah put up similar numbers. Their ORB%, DRB%, TRB%, AST%, STL%, and BLK% were all separated by 0.7% or less. Which was indication of both how active Noah was on the offensive glass and defense and how far Wallace had fallen as a defensive rebounder. If Wallace was simplay capable of being the offensive player that Noah was as a rookie, we might be thinking differently about Wallace now.
The positives are there. Noah demonstrated the ability to be a top ten offensive rebounder in the NBA. He steals the ball at an elite rate for big men. He's wasn't a particuarly great shot blocker, but he was a notch above average. He's never shown me that he's a natural shot blocker, but maybe he can improve on his skills in this area. Given his size and athleticism, he should be better than his rookie numbers. What I'll be looking for the most from Noah this season is improved defensive rebounding. Noah's 18% DRB% isn't in LaMarcus Aldridge territory, but it's a long way from where it needs to be. Noah was 56th in DRB% among players that played 1000 minutes, and there's a bunch of guys ahead of him that Noah needs to be out rebounding. I'm looking for him to at least grab 20% of defensive boards this season, and I'd really like to see him eventually get to at least 25%. I'm not completely convinced that he can get there though. It's something I'm going to be monitoring as the season goes along, and something that needs to happen if the Bulls are going to be a great defensive team again. Wallace was still grabbing over 21% in 06/07, and Chandler and even higher numbers. It's a key area that will determine how good Noah can be.
There were positive signs on offense as well. The biggest was that Noah appeared to learn how to finish in the NBA as the year progressed. His FG% rose throughout the season, getting over 50% the last two months. I'd like to see continued improvement. His goal should be at least 53% given the shots he takes. The 2nd biggest was that he got to the FT line, shooting better than 1 FTA for every 2 FGA. Curiously he shot a remarkable 78% from the line the 1st two months. Then he fell apart and shot 54% over the next two months before raising his FT% again over the last two months. I'm not sure what was responsible for the drop off, but he at least showed the potential and ability to shoot at least 75% from the line even with the terrible shooting form. He doesn't have to make a single jumpshot if he can shoot 75% from the line, considering the rate at which he gets to the FT line. There's clearly the potential for Noah to be an effective offensive player within his limited opportunites. He mangaged a 58% TS% over the last two months of the season when he was finishing better and hitting his FTAs. The area to monitor this season is obviously turnovers, but it's an area that most 2nd year players improve at least a little. But if Noah wants to handle the ball and take advantage of his passing ability, his turnovers have to come down significantly, not just a little. .
Ideally Noah moves from being a chaotic defensive factor to becoming a true defensive force. That requires significantly improved defensive rebounding, and it hopefully involves Noah developing into a better on the ball defender that could allow Tyrus the freedom to be a weak side shot blocker. Offensively, Noah is already acceptable. He either needs to give up the ball and try to become a high efficiency/low usage player in the Chandler/Biedrins or significantly improve his decison making on offense. I'd be content with the former, but I'm sure he'll at least try to do the latter given his skills and love of handling the ball. But, I'm also not sure he's truly capable of doing either. I'm not sure he's athletic enough to do what Chandler and Biedrins do, and I'm not sure his offensive I.Q. can reach the necessary level. Noah is something of a mystery to me right now. There should be the potential there to be a really good defender and offensive role player, but that potential also might now really exist due to physical and mental limitations. Whether he develops into something more or not, what he is right now is pretty good. If he can sustain most of what he did in the 2nd half of the season, he's a very solid starting caliber front court player and a solid building block.
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Scotter
you are a genius! How about using your analzation powers on the rest of our rotation players(no, that does not include Larry Hughes).
I wrote about the Chandler comparisons a while ago
I’m truly convinced that Joakim ill be in the mold of what Tyson Chandler is right now playing alongside Chris Paul.
I really make a reasonable case. Kind of like how you don’t really know how to explain it either. It’s just a feeling I have. With minutes, his IQ will increase on where to be for rebounds and better weak side defense.
Given his better ball handling skills, he has the ability to become better than Tyson a bit on the offensive side. Not too much more but a noticeable difference
I like the Chandler comparison, too.
Though he’s not as built as Tyson, I think Noah is certainly athletic and tenacious enough to play a similar role.
As usual, Scotter, great post.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Hollinger's PER "comparison at the same age" had Nene.
Other than the obvious difference in bulk, it seems apt. Nene is very athletic for his size, and I see Noah w/ the same athleticism. While he’s built like Chandler, he’s not quite as tall or long, and doesn’t have the same jumping ability (or maybe it just seems like it because he’s not getting as high).
I’d love to have the Bulls just complete skirt the idea of a ‘back-to-the-basket’ type player, but to also shed the jump-shooting label at the same time w/ guys like Thomas, Noah and Rose. They have a long way to go, of course, but that’d be pretty interesting.
see? that is whay I hate Hollinger's PER
by JustAnotherFan on Oct 8, 2008 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions
"he’s not getting as high"
Make no mistake: Noah’s getting high.
by paxson43 on Oct 9, 2008 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
"Noah is something of a mystery to me now"
An enigma perhaps. I feel that way too. He has to expend a lot of energy to achieve what he does. It’s good that he does expend all that energy, but I’m just suspicious of those kind of players as to their long term utility, ability to improve, things like that. TT on the other hand, I have no problem envisioning substantial improvement. But Noah is different. Interesting.
Mid Range Jumpe
Can this guy learn to hit a mid range jumper? Please Between he and TT we have no front court shooting at all.
Noah's shot is weak, but Tyrus is fine
Just about anytime IMG’s David Thorpe was asked to talk about what he witnessed from Tyrus Thomas over the summer he plugged Tyrus’ mid range jumper.
Tyrus can make this shot. He has range out to 18’. His stroke is smooth. When he’s patient and lets the shot come to him, it falls.
Tyrus is quicker than Noah so with defenders being forced to recover off a screen to defend the paint it will leave Tyrus open for a mid range where the defenders will have to recover close. Tyrus can then either fire off the shot because the defender won’t be able to block it(high release, elevation, good fundamentals) or he can fake the shot and attack the rim or step in, draw another defender, and then make the pass to the now other wide open teammate.
Noah is very different in that his shot takes more time to put up, his fundamentals are thrown out the window, his release is below average because of the way he uses both hands to shoot, and he doesn’t elevate that much to make the shot blocker force additional recovery creating foul opportunities.
Someone else can provide the Hollinger analysis on this.
by NBA Observer on Oct 9, 2008 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed on their jumpshots
Tyrus has actually improved (didyaknow he actually shot better from the free-throw line than the great Thabo), and like you pointed out it just looks better.
Until I see a massive change in release, Noah will never be a good shooter. Doesn’t mean he can’t be effective, but it’ll keep him from being great. It hinders his ability to use his superior ballhandling if nobody respects him enough to challenge him away from the basket.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 9, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
I also don't think the ranges will come close to eachother
Even with a better release, I don’t see Noah extending beyond 15’ max. I think he’s best suited in the 8-12’ range. It’s mostly a decoy that his primary defender must respect. So he has to make some shots.
I see most of his points coming in cleanup around the rim. Guards like Rose that attack the rim will help him. Noah had these options at Florida with Taurean Green and Corey Brewer.
If we get 10 points a night from Noah I will be happy. If we get 13-15 I’ll be ecstatic.
by NBA Observer on Oct 9, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
well said
I am a big fan of Noah’s potential, however, he like Thomas have to decide what they want to be. Noah give’s the energy on the court, but he must grow up and cut the crap out of his life. Lot’s of talk about Thomas’ new jumpshot is meaningless until we see it in games. I hope it’s all true, but I am skeptical.
I think this could be a very, very poor year – but if Noah and Thomas both improve over last year, then I could be pleasantly wrong.
Thomas's J
has looked very good in preseason.
As others have said, his main problem is actually finishing at the rim.
Have to agree
It bothers me that Noah never admits that his jump shot is ‘utter garbage’ and needs drastic improvement. This is yet another reason I have serious questions as to his work ethic. it’s too bad, since he is a very good athlete for his size. He runs the fast break very well, and now that he is partnered with Speedy McSpeed, can become more of an offensive force.
by RogersPark Kris on Oct 9, 2008 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions
It excites me that Tyrus has worked on that 18 footer
and that both he and Rose are watching tape of Nash/Amare: one of the things that makes Nash/Amare unguardable is that Amare is almost automatic from 16-18 feet (especially last year). Once Tyrus learns how to make a layup, they’re going to be dominant too.
Ok! the decision has been made on the two skinny (similiar) players
One should go, Keep Tyrus look to trade Noah (the pot-head) now. Let Paxson know, everyday. We need to get an athletic scoring defensive bulk player from one of the two positions(PF, Center).
I agree they need that
but they don’t need to get rid of Noah to do so. A Tyrus/Noah/bulk-scoring-player works, with Gooden now in that third role (but ideally, Brad Miller).
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 9, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok.. Noah "energy" off the bench is ok...
but at some point, when the Bulls truly look to contend, they will need an intimidating presence from one of the “three” primary bigs. Gooden is somewhat of the enforcer now, but just slightly. Tyrus, with an attitude potentially might develop into this role with maturity, but it’s a guess? Brad Miller is an improvement over Noah, still lacking the intimidator role, but his age and NBA wear just doesn’t seem to go well with the new Bulls core.
Robin Lopez is the new Joakim Noah
Did you watch him in the outdoor game? He is his twin becuase he has those definsive stops, brings energy and I have to admit his game is similar to Noah. Except Noah is a much, much better Offensive player.
by knickknack7450 on Oct 12, 2008 10:19 AM CDT reply actions
In the NCAA Championship
game against UCLA, Noah was a man against boys. He totally dominated the court. I believe that with an elite point and some weak side help, he can become a force. If you watch him during games, he is often out of position, yet seems to get his hands on the ball all the time at the defensive end. I believe he can be a disruptive force if he learns the game. Hopefully, some of the experience on the Bulls new coaching staff will teach him about positioning and rotation, but he has a freakish nose for the ball and, most importantly, heart. With no Wallace, and no Skiles or Boylan, don’t be surprised if he has a breakout year.

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