sign-and-trade deal that would have sent Ben Gordon and Andres Nocioni to Miami in exchange for Shawn Marion.

Less than two weeks ago, the Heat and the Bulls still were discussing a sign-and-trade deal that would have sent Ben Gordon and Andres Nocioni to Miami in exchange for Shawn Marion. The talks died when the Bulls came to the conclusion that they'd be unable to re-sign Marion after his contract expires at the conclusion of this season, sources told ESPN.com.

about 1 year ago BigBenign 24 comments 1 recs |

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I felt this was interesting.

So the issue was not Ben Gordon’s salary in the sign-and-trade, but rather Shawn Marion’s? After the Ben Wallace debacle I can’t say I blame the Bulls too much for being hesitant to pay an aging all-star near max money.

Asked what kind of player he expects to be in the next five years, he said: "Not a star, but like, a superstar. Something around, like, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, something like that."

by BigBenign on Oct 6, 2008 2:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

As much as I like Marion

I would rather keep Noch and Gordon.

We already have 2 Marion-like players in Deng and Thomas(potentially).

I don’t see why we would need Marion.

by Edicus2288i on Oct 6, 2008 2:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

If Noce is out of the way, though, there could have been enough minutes for all 3 to share the 3 and 4 positions

Of course, I can’t say I really want Marion at this stage of his career.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Oct 6, 2008 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's a salary flex pivot trade

You send out pieces not as valuable to the Bulls in exchange for a player that could produce real value or at the worst is just 17.5 million in expiring salary.

Hughes and Marion together would be 31 million freed. It’s not the best summer to have this cash, but it could still be used to acquire someone good(Joe Johnson) at the SG position.

by NBA Observer on Oct 6, 2008 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Joe Johnson isn't even that much better than Ben Gordon

if the 2010 ‘plan’ is for Joe Johnson that’s not much of a plan

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 6, 2008 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Glad this didn't happen.

I still want to see what Tyrus can do and Gooden is more than serviceable.

The question that begs to be asked, though, is how much were the Heat willing to pay Gordon?

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Oct 6, 2008 2:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Though

If we end up losing BG for nothing at the end of this season, I would have been happy to also get rid of Noce for Marion’s fat expiring contract. Not that Paxson would have been able to use it (cough pj brown cough), but the idea is there

by The90sBullsRevival on Oct 6, 2008 3:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

yeah

i mean it’s an interesting idea, though considering the bulls weren’t going to resign marion, it was the better thing to do unless bg does end up walking. cause i too would rather have been free from the noc contract as well…

by Jaina on Oct 6, 2008 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you've got to be kidding me

The Bulls front office cannot be this stupid. You let Marion either walk and take the cap space or you merely trade Marion around the deadline to a contender for expiring crap or draft picks.

Can the front office still not understand how shitty the Nocioni contract is for a guy off the bench?

by NBA Observer on Oct 6, 2008 3:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

if they did they wouldn't have offered it in the first place

I think it’s a pretty crummy return to get an expiring contract (but not even under the cap in ‘09) and dealing two of your best offensive players, even if they’d be overpaid.

That said, I’m not even sure what’s a fair contract to extend Marion with. They’d have to also make sure Tyrus got enough PT to be traded himself.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 6, 2008 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also, imagine how bad our 3-point shooting would be

if we got rid of both BG and Noc at the same time. Ugh.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Oct 6, 2008 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Crummy return?

Despite what the Bulls may think, Noc has a negative value to this team. Gordon, signed on the QO, is probably perilously close to having a negative value as well. There’s about a 98% chance he leaves us with nothing, so if the best we can get is to unload Nocioni, it’s still better than what we’re likely to get by keeping him.

This info pretty much reinforces the idea, to me, that the Bulls have absolutely no long-term plans. Or Paxson has become literally schizophrenic. Either way, I’m pretty close to empty on confidence in him.

On another note… what could Marion fetch from another team? If we want to be creative and we didn’t feel good about Marion, why not try to get a third team involved? I mean jeez, I can only think of like half the teams in the league that could use him.

by Sports2 on Oct 6, 2008 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Noc's deal isn't SO bad

that they’d have to use Gordon to move it. But if they can get an expiring contract for Noc they should do it. I’m not sure they will.

Perhaps the Bulls do have a plan, it’s to be perpetually mediocre.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 6, 2008 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You wouldn't have to plan for this.

Just slightly over-pay all your players you’re over-attached to, and it “just happens”.

by marionette on Oct 6, 2008 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Remember Picolomair's fanpost from a few days ago?

Why Aquiring Marion Helps Us Aquire Gordon (or… 18 days ago by piccolomair

by hlac on Oct 6, 2008 5:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

God! Was it really about the tax?

Here’s my immediate thinking on this:

They wouldn’t trade Gordon + Nocioni for Marion because they wouldn’t have re-signed Marion.

That means they would have lost Gordon for nothing.

They didn’t want that.

They expect to re-sign Ben Gordon next year.

They can’t possibly expect Gordon to sign with the Bulls for equal to or less than what they offered this year.

Therefore, they expect to offer Gordon more next year (maybe not what he wants from them, but still more…).

Therefore, they really, really, wanted to offer Gordon more money, but really, really, really couldn’t because of the luxury tax.

I’ve thought this all along (that they wanted to pay Gordon more but "couldn’t") both because they said it and the starting salary for Gordon being right at the luxury tax line. I mean, we’ve all kind of thought this, but I think we’re all hoping it really isn’t true because it not only shows the stinginess of Reinsdorf but also the powerlessness or lack of creativity of Paxson to get under the cap after the fact.

Wow. This is just too much.

by tyger1147 on Oct 6, 2008 6:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I should add that oftentimes

Chris Sheridan’s reports are full of poo. And this deal isn’t even cap-legal. Sure there could’ve been throw-ins, but if it’s (say) Marcus Banks that’s a significant difference.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 6, 2008 6:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Indeed.

Banks deal is worse than Noc’s, relatively speaking.

by marionette on Oct 6, 2008 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Should be

far worse.

by marionette on Oct 6, 2008 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The throw in would have to be on the Bulls side

For example, suppose the sign and trade deal with Gordon is for a salary of $9M. Noc makes $8M.

Based on the trade rules, that means Miami is trading away Marion at $17M and getting back those two at $17M. Trade approved.

Because of the BYC rule, Chicago’s “outgoing” salary in the trade would be Noc’s $8M plus Gordon’s BYC value, which would be like $4.8M. That’s only $12.8M.

Since a team can only take in 125% of the outgoing salary, the most the Bulls could take back would be $16.1M. Marion’s salary wouldn’t fit and the league wouldn’t approve the trade.

The way around this wold be to include Cedric Simmons ($1.7M) going to the Heat. This would raise the Bulls’ outgoing value to $14.5M, allowing them to take back up to $18.2M in salary. Enough to fit Marion.

At the same time, the Heat would still be within the rules because they could take back up to $22.3M in trading Marion.

by Sports2 on Oct 6, 2008 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That would have been a bad trade. No need for Marion with Deng knocking about. If the team wants to move Nocioni they can find something better, with less salary cap implications.

by NBR on Oct 6, 2008 10:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs