Running concurrently with Ben Gordon's "get me my money" tour:
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 8:52 AM CDT
Email
PrintThe Chicago Bulls "we don't need you" tour!
Is it too early to begin a campaign promoting Kirk Hinrich for the NBA's sixth-man award? He produced 15 points and 7 assists off the bench in the Bulls' season-opening victory over Milwaukee.
At this point, one day into the regular season, Hinrich's only real competition is teammate Ben Gordon, who scored 18 on Tuesday. The race is wide open, since last year's winner, Spurs guard Manu Ginobili, is supposed to miss the first two months of the season with a foot injury.
And since the Bulls are 1-0, there is no reason to change the starting lineup for Friday's trip to Boston. So expect to see Thabo Sefolosha back at two guard against the Celtics.
No, of course there'd be no change. Why try to get better? As is recent Bulls tradition, the goal isn't to get the team better, but to get Kirk Hinrich better.
It gives Hinrich a break in defending the other team's most dangerous guard, allows him to play the point when Rose is out of the game, and supplies Sefolosha with some built-in quality minutes.
Giving away precious Rose-time to Thabo is not worth it, since he stinks and all(until proven otherwise), and a goal IS to get Derrick Rose better. Besides, when Hinrich enters the game for Thabo (and then when Gordon enters for Rose), HInrich's still guarding the most dangerous guard.
Just start Gordon, and then Hinrich can sub for either him or Rose. Or at least after an offseason of telling anyone who'd listen that Gordon was merely 'a sixth man' who didn't deserve the money he wanted, keep him as the sixth man? When Thabo was named starter, Gordon was simply pushed down the line with no regard to his prior role, which was exactly what I feared would happen.
Not good for the Gordon camp. He basically has to play outstanding, but not to the point where the Bulls win. Otherwise he's the 7th or 8th man, and that's not even considering what happens when Larry "I'm tall like Thabo" Hughes comes back.
Coming next Monday at Orlando: "we need Thabo to disrupt the rhythm of Pietrus"
158 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Gordon
continously gets the “pat on the head treatment” by basically everyone.
As long as he is a good boy, and comes in scores his points, they could care less. We’ll give you a pat on the head and a treat, now go away and let the humans interact…we’ll call you when we need you…but good boy!!
It’s a crock.
Yeah, poor little Benny-Ben.
Someone reach down and give this diminutive little 2-guard a hug.
Isn’t that what little people need most? Someone to pick them up and give them a great big hug?
If this were the 80’s he’d be adopted by a white family on a corny prime-time sitcom. Ben, repeat after me: “What you talkin’ bout, Willis?” See? He’s a natural, as long as we are allowed to place him in a predetermined category.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
that kind of coddling talk is unacceptable. Players should have to deal with what they're given
(unless you’re Thabo Sefolosha)
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, coddling is only ok if
by coddling, we can further marginalize the person involved.
Not only by hugging short people or casting people into predetermined categories, but also by telling them what they’re good at, despite any statistics to the contrary.
Ben: you are good at coming off the bench. You are not good at starting. I don’t care what the statistics say.
Forget being all you can be. Be what we have decided you should be.
Am I taking this too far? Sure I am.
But there is a certain stubbornness that we’re seeing with Bulls management here. Especially considering that they have painted themselves into a corner after saying for years that they won’t lose a lottery pick for nothing. We’re on course to do exactly that.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
I agree
I was a bit poster on the last site saying given Kirk and Ben there’s no need to focus on Thabo…..Thabo will never be an all league player, and is unlikely to ever be as good as either of them (And that window is closing)…..Pairing Gordon with Rose too to start is great because we can see how well Rose’ll play with a real scorer beside him….whether that ends up being BG or not this year’ll address that….
Also, while I’m on it, Matt, what’s up with the ads today? I swear I had to keep reclicking your blog because this shoebuy add was draped all accross it with now way to click close….I could only read about 60% of your post before hand, very irritating.
I know SBNation loves the ad funds, but there has to be a better way than this. I saw Shoe Buy, but after I saw it, I couldn’t get rid of it.
I even clicked on the link to try to go back and read your post to no avail….
It was also happening with some other add on the Bulls postgame thread today….irritating.
You could try flashblock instead
if the ads rather advanced and wants to overlap content I find that annoying. flashblock is an addon that will only allow these ads to be viewed if you click on them.
Not the best thing to be blocking ads. I want ads to support the content. I just want ads that aren’t intrusive.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree
I’m fine with ads when they have that click to close option or they disappear….but this morning the ads were all over the site so I really had trouble enjoying the site.
Oh well they are gone now. I’d rather avoid an add blocker program now as I’d like to keep this site around as the best pure Bulls site by a long shot.
it was definitely a glitch
not any change towards having more intrusive ads.
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah, i don't care about ads
as long as they aren’t intrustive. i typically use an adblocker program, but if you don’t select it to autoblock, then it’s just up to you to block the particularly annoying ones. kinda what NBAO said, adblock does as well.
Here is the ad block link:
Only takes a second to download and install for Firefox. And if you’re using IE, well…you should be using Firefox.
Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Oct 30, 2008 9:37 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
thanks.
The tech group is aware of the ad problem, btw.
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Way to twist a feel good story about the Bulls depth.
Into yet another gratuitous play my favorite Bull player more minutes post.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
by Dionysus2.0 on Oct 30, 2008 9:55 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
never be satisfied
It’s actually yet another “play the Bulls who’ll help the team most the most minutes” post, but sure.
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
It's only been on behalf of BG and it's getting old
Ben got more minutes than I thought he may considering he didn’t play much in the preseason and was coming off injuries. He played in the critical parts of the game and got 26 minutes strong minutes, as much as Kirk, 6 less than Rose, and three times what Thabo got. He also got his shots, he got his points and the Bulls won. But he didn’t start!
by messwiththebull on Oct 30, 2008 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
He should have more than 26 minutes, and more minutes with Rose
Do I have to give everyone equal time of praise? I think Ben’s better, and a better fit with Rose.
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions
and at the very least
even if I can buy into the gimmick that is starting Thabo….why is Hinrich coming off the bench to replace him? That makes even less sense.
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions
In his first game off an injury, with little practice time in a new system?
It’s hard to make much out of the 26 mintues Ben played, especially considering the above and the lack of Hughes in the rotation. It’s as early as one can be to start complaining about MPG.
by messwiththebull on Oct 30, 2008 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Well if you look at the numbers...
Ben is clearly better…In fact, by the numbers, Rose has only the 7th best PER (17.2) on the Bulls this season while Drew Gooden has an eye popping MVP caliber PER of 32.0. So, by the numbers, the players who should get the most minutes are in order
Gooden
Gordon
Hinrich
Noah
Deng
Thomas
Rose
Noc
Sefolosha.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2009.html
But, most fans would not be happy with that type of minute distribution…or perhaps PER is not a good measure of a players per minute efficiency…
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
by Dionysus2.0 on Oct 30, 2008 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
yeah...sure give gooden the most minutes
gordon and rose should each get at least 34-35….there are 96 total guard minutes….hinrich should get the rest of the 28-30 minutes thats a sick guard rotation
clearly I don't just mean based on one game...
but enjoy fondling your strawman.
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
I was just presenting a statistical measure...
Of who the better players are…you know, like an objective voice rather than your subjective “I just think Ben is better…”; I am not actually surprised he was better in game one…A PER of 22.6 would rank him near the top 10 in the NBA…of course, he did have the lowest defensive rating of any Bulls player at 114. Again, these are just stats and interpretations of them…
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
yes it's subjective
based on the players Gordon and Thabo have been over their careers, and what I think would be the best type of compliment to Rose.
You’re interpreting the stats incorrectly. (that’s subjective too).
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
You're not going to win the argument
with ridiculous reasoning. I’m not sure whether you are being condescending to the stat crowd, or actually believe what you wrote, but either way, it failed.
There is no argument to win.
yfbb thinks Gordon needs more minutes because he thinks Gordon helps the team win more games by playing more minutes…I disagree. While I understand this is his forum, its tiresome to continually read posts pitting one bulls player against another, rather than saluting the effort of the team in its most recent victory…
I am relatively new to this forum, I have not yet read the venom spill to the page after a loss, but I can only imagine how this place erupts…
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
by Dionysus2.0 on Oct 30, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
If there is no argument why are you arguing?
Personally, I was very happy with the Bulls performance, and generally with how VDN managed the game. But it was against the Bucks and there is a margin for error. Whats wrong with wanting them to have the best chance to win possible? Its very frustrating to continually see the team handicap itself.
by JeffD on Oct 30, 2008 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I interpreted it as the former
and got a chuckle. I respect our statisticians here but feel that they often prioritize stats over on-the-court observations (similar to what would constitute scouting) rather than use them to supplement, either that or there is a general lack of knowledge about the game from a X’s and O’s perspective (a suspicision that is growing) resulting in an over-emphasis of the statistics when evaluating a player. I will read someone trumpeting the production of a certain player yet never once will I ever read that poster comment on how that player completely missed his defensive assigments that night, missed assigments that may negatively affect the defensive measures for another teammate rather than the player who really made the error. And then I’ll read how productive that player is and how crappy his teammate is.
by messwiththebull on Oct 30, 2008 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1 :)
We have to take precise game notes.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
This is actually pretty easy to do
but you have to be a nerd and single, I think.
by messwiththebull on Oct 30, 2008 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions
go nuts
there’s plenty of room for scouting, especially on the defensive end.
though ironically this usually reflects bad on ‘mr. intangibles’ :)
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions
The "problem" w/ scouting is that no one here is a professional scout.
And the one person that comes closest… his interpretations come pretty close to what statistical analysis shows.
And the problem w/ “he missed a rotation” argument… even if someone does it 3 times while falling on their ass and looking like an idiot, that discounts the 33 times throughout the game where said person made the right rotation at the exact right time. While stats are fallible, your observation and memory are more-so.
Agreed
I think for most people who like and understand stats, it’s just easier to talk in terms of something concrete as a representation of observation. For the most part, we’re throwing out a paragraph of info here or there and it is really difficult to recap all the details of any particular player’s game in such a limited description. If you’re quantitatively inclined, I think you just drift naturally toward something like Tyrus missed a couple of rotations, but 90% of the time he was there as opposed to a detailed description of what he did incorrectly the few times he missed. And I do see a lot of stat-heads commenting when the visual perception of someone’s game doesn’t match the boxscore – Lu’s “quiet” 20+ points or Kirk/BG overall shooting better or worse in a game statistically than it seemed when he hit/missed some big shots or Noah/Tyrus tipping a lot of rebounds toward teammates and so not getting credit for the rebound or the team shooting crappy so Derrick’s assists are low despite great passes.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
by wjb1492 on Oct 30, 2008 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
David Thorpe should be a guest writer
He talks about Tyrus non-stop anyways, what’s the difference if he wrote on BaB?
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 30, 2008 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Do you know how to recommend posts?
I don’t do it nearly as often as I should, but wjb’s comment is a very good one deserving reader recommendation.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions
2 more for the green and the asterisk!
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
yes!
rec rec rec and make it green (and make it rain)
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions
We really could use more rec'd posts around this place.
It looks awesome and takes away from the constant bickering.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Oct 30, 2008 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Bickering leads to ratings, though
or eyeballs and clicks, I guess.
by messwiththebull on Oct 30, 2008 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions
I wonder if BG reads this site
He has to, right? If so, I’m surprised he hasn’t hooked Matt up with some sweet media passes yet :-)
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
I suspect he has
I’m not saying, I’m just saying.
by messwiththebull on Oct 30, 2008 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions
nobody of note reads
except maybe Kelly Dwyer.
And only the most perverted subset would actually go this deep into the threads.
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Has Dwyer ever posted?
That’d be a nice addition to the site. I mean, he’d certainly be more valuable to discussion than a random lemming such as myself.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
You just have to press the "actions" button.
And then select rec. Or am I just misunderstanding your problem?
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 30, 2008 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Absolutely, there are certainly BaBers in this category
and that’s terrific analysis.
by messwiththebull on Oct 30, 2008 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions
This is the best thing for Ben
I think some of you Gordon fans may be missing the point. This may actually be the best thing for Ben for next year’s contract. We know he can’t play D or dribble or pass. In the current role those things won’t be highlighted. He can just score. Some other bad team can see his “potential” as a starter and pay him all kinds of money. I didn’t think he would get a big contract for next year, but if the Bulls keep up this strategy I may have to revise my opinion.
Next year you will be able to tell everybody, see I told you so, as he puts up big numbers (on a team with less than 30 wins).
I am happy for Ben to get a lot of money, just as long as the Bulls aren’t paying it.
pisses me off....
its really dumb how everyone is saying be did so much worse than the 06’-07’ season…..i remember last years his point total actually got above the 20 point plateau and he reached like 20.4 points a game….but then boylans dumb self started reducing his minutes and it went down to 18.6 if he got his minutes he would have gotten up to his 06’07 numbers for sure
blame Hughes
Really is blame Boylan, which really was blame Pax, which really is blame the Chairman.
Clearly it’s Raymond Brothers’ fault.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
It's all
because Gordon started off the year horrible like the rest of the team…..after mid Dec Gordon played better than ever, TO’s down, points up, until Jimmy B Hughes’d him for no reason.
So when Hughes comes
back and gets his starting spot back does that mean Thabo will be the first guard off the bench? I think Vinny likes having Kirk and BG coming off the bench together.
yikes, maybe
Thabo was basically pushed to the top of the guard queue.
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions
You know my theory is that there is no way the organization can reward BG for not signing.
That means Hughes would have started but he got hurt so Thabo is there in his place.
Can’t let all those draft picks think they have any options other than to take what is reasonably offered!
good question
you’ve been pretty adamant that LH will be starting once he gets back…I’m curious why you’re so sure. Though it does seem that way honestly.
I’m curious what will happen after the 6th or 7th game or so. If Hughes is back will he start? That will be enough time for Ben to get up to speed and get his legs under him, will Vinny give him a chance?
by NormVanBeer on Oct 30, 2008 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
All the quotes
indicate so. The general “since Larry got injured we went with the other tall guard, Thabo, blah blah blah” added to the glowing praise Larry inexplicably gets from the staff and the press. I don’t know if that means Thabo is first off the bench. But as long as they’ve gone mental I wouldn’t say it was beyond the realms of possibility.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
I guess
I’ve been trying to ignore those quotes, though it’s hard to. I’ve seen them as well.
I spent 2 minutes arguing with my friend last night about this very scenario. He seemed to like the idea of BG coming off the bench, he likes Thabo starting, he thinks LH is good (blank stare).
I say 2 minutes because after he said LH was good, it was time to end the conversation and retain our friendship by not talking about the Bulls.
by NormVanBeer on Oct 30, 2008 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Just a nagging suspicion
I have about Hughes starting. Seems to be a thing with Vinny having a need to get a tall guard in the starting lineup whether they can actually shoot the ball or not.
Or actually guard either. Hughes does neither well. But he is tall.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Yeah, I could have
made a long list of why he shouldn’t play but I just posted the shooting part. Of course tall seems to be one of Vinny’s must haves.
Give Matt the keys to the car
Start Gordon @Boston. I want to see what happens. Half the reasons are because I want to see the Rose-Gordon starting back court with Hinrich as the first guard off the bench. The other half of the reasons are I want to give Vinny the chance to test his strategy.
Vinny is an undefeated regular season coach after all. ;)
Might be a good idea to draft the mea culpa, but it’s too early for that as well. If we start Gordon and get killed it will be somebody else’s fault. If we start Gordon against against the Magic and get killed it will be somebody else’s fault.
Remind me again. Did the Bucks double team Ben Gordon on Tuesday night? The Celtics will.
And then Rose or someone else will be open.
Double teaming Gordon isn’t such a bad thing with Rose out there. It would be more like our trap. Similarly if they double Rose. They can’t double everyone at the same time and Rose moves off the ball well enough that he should be able to get the ball back from Gordon should Gordon get into trouble.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Obviously
I want Gordon double teamed and I think he will draw them. I just don’t recall the Bucks doubling him once on Tuesday.
Maybe Mr. Defense Skiles just forgot. Maybe he doesn’t think you have to double Gordon.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
i noticed (and wondered) the same thing
why didn’t Skiles double Ben. It would seem like he would know how to stop his former player. Ben pretty much had his way in the 2nd half.
by NormVanBeer on Oct 30, 2008 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Skiles is 'real man'
doing what he can to help Ben get paid?
I was really dumbfounded by this lapse. Is Charlie Bell a hidden perennial 2nd team all defense or something? Or is Michael Redd taking the Skiles teaching and completely reversing his status as a poor defender?
Rose or Gordon will have to be double teamed at some point when they are on the floor together.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe
because Skiles saw how well Tyrus was playing and thought "Damn if I played him I would be in a great bball town that could really have something going for it, instead of in Milwaukee with this squad chock full of hte kind of players I hate, and with a fan base that really doesn’t care or follow us at all….
I like Milwaukee, want them to do well, but Skiles needs to focus on RJ and Bogut and find the nearest takers for Charlie V and Redd….because after seeing him screw over Gordon’s development and even more defensive minded Tyrus, he’s going to really do a number on the already all star Redd and the young, offensive minded Villanueva….
Ben didn't have the ball in his hands long enough.
To warrant any sort of double team…almost all of his scoring came from the catch and shoot. It would not make sense to double a guy off the ball.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
Sounds like a nice guy to have next to Rose.
All that catching and shooting and not very much dribbling around or keeping the ball out of the pgs hands.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
double team off the ball
is illegal defense.
Nonetheless, you’re right. It’s also stupid.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I think the real reason is there no one to leave open anymore
You used ot be able to double Ben because Duhon, Malik Allen, Griff, or Ben Wallace were playing (sometimes multiple of them) and it was easy to leave someone. They have virtually no players to double off of left (just Thabo and maybe Noah)
and the Celtics
Will definitely clog the lane if Thabo is starting, just daring him and Rose and Deng to shoot 3’s and not letting TT or Gooden get anything off inside. We’re talking about KG maning the lane here. Gordon needs to be out there to start so we can put some points up on the board and get their defenders out of the lane. Ugh…it’s not going to happen, though, and we’re going to have a tough time scoring.
by kig on Oct 30, 2008 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
KG can't camp in the paint
if he has to guard Tyrus Thomas circling the perimeter.
Actually he can, but it’s illegal defense when he steps below the free throw line. The refs have to call it. Think they will? They didn’t in the ’07 Finals.
Me thinks the refs will make some calls. Specifically on Tyrus Thomas for alleged illegal screens. It’s Friday night and I’ll be watching in costume. So at least I can yell at the bar TVs drinking on a prepaid bracelet toasting the somber with friends.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
He will probably
be tempted to not guard Ty so close. Maybe Thomas will have a great outside shooting game.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
I'm really eager
to see how Tyrus will do tomorrow. Really eager.
I think against the Celtics we definately should start Noah and Tyrus in the backcourt and hope that the athleticism is too much for KG and Perkins….
We have little hope anyway, let’s try that strategy….
if we aren't making KG chase Tyrus
all over the half court I will be really upset. Work KG into the ground and make them beat you with Leon Powe.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions
it's worth a shot
but Tyrus better be hitting the face-up jumper. If he goes towards the rim against KG he’s not going to get a single call.
I’m extremely worried (as was pointed out by somewhere elsewhere in the thread) that the starters have no outside shooting and we’ll be looking at 7 points in the first 6 minutes.
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Or
3 points in 6 minutes against that vaulted Celtics D, while getting down 3-12 after a few Ray Allen trey’s and a Pierce sighting or two….
Where's Tyger's closest thing we have to a 'professional scout'?
I need to borrow him for a second.
KG near the paint = bad.
KG above the free throw line = good
That’s all Tryus has to do. Rose, Deng, Gordon, and Hinrich do the rest. You want those points to come from the perimeter. I want those Celtics closing out to opening lanes in the paint for penetration and fouls against.
24.9 years old. That’s our average age. Get to the rim. Make them draw charges. Get them in foul trouble. When KG leaves the Noc at 4 five man unit will work best.
Many factors here. Coaching will be the key. Execution will be secondary. PER won’t tell you shit about any of this.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
How many fouls do you think the Bulls will draw against the defending champs?
I don’t want to see Tyrus called for 6 charging fouls in a quarter.
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 30, 2008 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll take 24+
The Celtics do foul to win. They will likely try to hammer Rose early.
All I want to do is keep KG out of the paint. If the other Celtics beat us then we deserve to lose.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions
"That's all Tyrus has to do"
yeah ok Mr. Obvious. Easier said than done.
Like I said the other day, this one has “getting ugly real quick” written all over it.
Patience
It’s too easy to enter a game depressed before the jump ball.
Clue in on the keys to victory. See the path to victory and then watch it executed.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions
someone stole the inspirational speech
from Stacy King’s wallet.
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not saying they should be depressed
but come on, the Celtics aren’t the champs because the rest of the league just LET them win.
That’s why I disagree with what you said earlier, about how coaching comes first, then execution second. I’d beg to differ. VDN can coach up a storm and give the greatest Win One For the Gipper speech of his life, but if they fail to execute, it’s pretty meaningless.
I posted a goo video in the fanshot
section that gives you a good rundown of how the Celtics won in the postseason.
For a team with an awesome roster it was rather suspect that it took them the most number of games played in NBA history to accomplish it.
If only I was plugged into the revenue stream I could keep my mouth shut like a good worker. ;)
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions
i saw that fanshot
I don’t buy it though. So a few moving screens and some other non-calls help them beat down the Lakers?
heh
Umm, yes. It really helps you win games when your MVP in the paint gets to stay on the floor because he isn’t whistled for moving screens.
The Posey stuff we know about. He fouls again after he fouls so you can’t get up a shot. I don’t think the rules are clear on this, so i can’t harp the NBA for the one foul call. It’s more like a technical foul after the initial foul, but if the offensive player is still in shooting motion can’t you just shove him again so he can’t put it up? How about tugging their arm?
That video is also jus the Laker series. The Celtics went to 7 with the freaking Hawks. They went 7 with the Cavs. They only needed 6 to take care of the Pistons.
Did the Celtics really play very different basketball in all of these playoff losses or were they just getting calls in the wins and not in the losses?
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll watch the video
once I get done making my tin foil hat.
by messwiththebull on Oct 30, 2008 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions
awesome
that video was ridiculous. Just some Laker fan whining that the Celtics were guarding Kobe too hard and ignoring the other players.
No offense NBA Observer, but that video was horrible.
I'm not sure I understand this post...
Why do you intentionally conflate the media’s agenda with the Bulls’ agenda? It’s not VDN saying those things it’s the media.
I thought VDNs lineups were near perfect. Thabo played 12 stinkin minutes. Again, I don’t like Thabo, don’t think he should be starting. But complaining about a game in which they won rather easily and Gordon play 26 minutes including playing with Rose down the stretch — I don’t get it.
If in two weeks Gordon isn’t starting then we have a problem, but I don’t think BG is so damn good that he is entitled to play 35MPG.
Him and Rose starting (at this point) might be a recipe for 2 quick fouls on Rose, which would be very bad. I can see sorta what VDN is thinking — again — don’t agree with it.
But this isn’t some conspiracy to bury Ben Gordon.
VDN was near-perfect
you’re right. Not perfect though :)
and based on the early returns, we’re not going to hear much of substance from Vinny all year. So all we’ll have to go on is his actions. And he played Hinrich as the 6th man.
I think Gordon’s so damned good he should be at least in the 30-32 range.
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
...and maybe Gordon can get to that level.
Once he has actually practiced with the team. I was surprised he got as many minutes as he did considering how little he actually participated in training camp…At least the toe injury didn’t seem to bother his jumper in the second half.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
you're right
because someone’s minutes should always be based on the amount of times they’ve practiced, no matter how good they are!! No sir!
Tell that to A.I….
I know I am right.
But I didn’t say always. I was referring specifically to Ben Gordon’s situation coming into Bulls camp…the primary difference with this training is a new head coach implementing a new system for all of the players to learn…by missing most of the practices, Ben Gordon should have been somewhat behind the other players in understanding and implementing the system…and he was used as such, primarily as a spot up shooter.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
technically
Gordon just didn’t PARTICIPATE physically in the practices, but he was there at each one (this came out of both his and Vinny’s mouths) and he was still able to pick up the terminology and specifics.
True, watching from the sides is different than actually doing it…but you’re acting like he just wasn’t there at all and was at home watching soap operas.
The man is a professional ball player…how long do you really think it will take him to pick up the intricacies of the system?
It took him the first half to shake off the rust.
In the second half he played like NBA player…I expect he will be close to 100% up to speed by the Orlando game…
Gordon showed that its not that important for him to know the system, as long as he knows to go to the open spot and hit three’s…
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
oh jeez.
Has Gordon been called out for not knowing the offense? Has his historically been known as someone who doesn’t play within the scheme?
Except the countless times over the past 4 years where the offense would break down and Gordon would have to save the possession.
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions
I was talking about one game.
Not his entire history with the Bulls organization. Tuesday night against Milwaukee, he ran one play…then went to the open spot and waited. I think he will be close to 100% by Monday. He is a hard worker.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
Is your position that he was perfectly
ready to play a full slate of minutes in Game 1? If not, then please stop whining that he got 5-6 less minutes than you think he should have.
I didn’t hear any concerns about his knowing the offense. I did hear plenty of concern from both Gordon and Vinny that his conditioning was not up to par yet. It’s hard enough to play 30+ minutes when you’re in peak condition, but Ben has only played one simulated game and sat out of most practices.
Seriously, it’s fine to say once or twice that you’re concerned something bad might happen, but harping on it for 90% of your posts is ridiculous. It was perfectly reasonable for Vinny to limit Ben’s minutes in game one.
by runningman on Oct 30, 2008 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Good post.
You’re right – there’s no reason to go overboard yet. Sure, if it happens for the next few weeks, go ahead and bitch.
I guess we could just chalk this up as another over-the-top reactionary post, though, right ;-)
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Is this 90% actually a tracked statistic
or an on-the-blog observation?
by messwiththebull on Oct 30, 2008 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Thabo seems to be
lagging in his understanding and implementation of the system too. But he WAS at every practice…Hmm….
Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Oct 30, 2008 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thabo just needs
some extra care. He is a gentle, timid player, prone to low self esteem. It takes him a little longer than others. He’ll get there at his own time. If we start him he will feel special and wanted and fit right in. Skiles damaged his feelings but he is on the mend!
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Ben does practice hard
He’s missed them. Vinny is eventually going to see the hard practice from ben first hand.
I’m trying to be patient with Vinny. He will see what we know. I’m really not into the real or comical approach pushing Vinny onto the plank already.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
me neither!
Vinny had a very good first game. I’m more entrenched against the continuing organizational-wide boner to mess with Gordon.
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions
In a new system under a new coach with a new PG and new teammates
I’d say yes.
by messwiththebull on Oct 30, 2008 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Unless you're one of the elite
always a disclaimer.
by messwiththebull on Oct 30, 2008 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions
If Kobe was on the Bulls
would you think it was ridiculous for Ben to be starting over him? I sure would, and its basically the same thing. Kobe is Ben what Ben is to Thabo.
Kobe is a first team all-NBA and a first team all-nba defense
He’s Ben + points and Thabo’s defense + better.
Let’s leave Kobe alone since he’s the best player in the NBA.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh
and height, leadership, proven, and even gritty fist pumpy.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
That is kinda the point
Kobe is clearly superior to Ben in the same way Ben is clearly superior to Kobe. If you like, we can substitute Wade. Would you like Ben to start over Wade? (and I don’t think Kobe is the best player in the NBA)
It's not clear
Kobe is better than Ben on offense and defense. Ben is just better than Thabo on offense.
yeabut
by a LOT.
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions
And Kobe is better than Ben
by a lot.
I know I’m asking for it here, this is more of a playful question, but what if they each played just 1 on 1. I think Kobe best Ben by more than Ben beats Thabo, if Ben beats Thabo at all.
Is Wade going to play defense?
If so, of course. If not, what the hell does he give me that Ben can’t?
I don’t want to play players that are going to tire themselves out on offense, then lolly gag on defense, and force my other 4 defenders to play rotate around the freaking rosy blowing all their energy so the only guy with any wind for offense is the one guy you can double team to get the ball out of his hands.
Kobe is in a league by himself because of his defense. The offense is awesome, but the defense isn’t something he will ever skimp on. He knows that he drags on defense it kills his teammates so they have no energy to assist him on offense.
We’re Bulls fans. We now Michael Jordan and what he did on both ends. When are we going to wake up and use now what we know is necessary to win. You have to bring it on both ends and one player taking a break is inexcusable.
Please note that I don’t see any of our guys taking this break on defense this season. Not yet. But I am watching for it and I am drafting the fanpost to point that out.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh man
“Is Wade going to play defense?
If so, of course. If not, what the hell does he give me that Ben can’t?”
NBAO, say it ain’t so.
by messwiththebull on Oct 30, 2008 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions
That was pretty hilarious, even for NBAO...
It’s not like D-Wade is one of the top 3 offensive players in the league when he’s healthy or anything like that…
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Am I allowed to use Team USA examples for supporting evidence of the Wade argument?
Short short version: Wade’s offense doesn’t win games. It only keeps his team in them. His defense is what wins games.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions
double take, what?
Wade shot like 80% in the Olympics. If his offense wasn’t helping win those games I don’t know what was.
His defense was better,
a lot better. That’s what enabled him to shoot 80%. Dunks are pretty easy to make after you’ve played excellent defense and been in position to use that athleticism to step into the passing lane, get a finger tip on the ball, and tip it to the timeline and start to gather for a breakaway dunk.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions
whatever dude
he wasn’t only making break out dunks. And there is nothing you can point to, to back up that assertion.
I will never understand you
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Oct 30, 2008 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Did you watch the finals?
Wade was ridiculous and unstoppable offensively….
Did you watch the Olympics—as others stated Wade shot unbelievably…
Did you watch him at Marquette? Wade was all offense allt he time.
Wade has all the tools to be a first team all defender, but doesn’t focus as much there because he is a first team all offensive player, and completely unstoppable.
Except the Pistons, the Bulls, and lol, Greece
stopped him.
Wade will have a good year statistically and the Heat will suck because Wade won’t put the effort in on defense to try to make it work.
They probably get to .500 if he gives 90% defensively.
by NBA Observer on Oct 31, 2008 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Pistons
Haven’t always stopped him. They stopped him by hurting him.
Hinrich has consistently stopped him, that’s about it.
I’m not talking about a 1 game threshold (Greece either).
Wade’ll be awesome, but Miami will stink not because of Wade, but more likely because they have 2 similar players next to him in tweener 3/4 categories—one a star athlete/solid player who wants to be a #1 but ain’t anymore and needs a point guard to be as good as he was, and the second in Beasley who’s a rookie that’ll have rookie growing pains.
Then they have garbage. Haslem can play, but he’s just a mediocre (bottom 25-35 PF in the league), a great role player but not much more…yet he might be a C for most of the time this year given their tweener glut.
They have absolutely nobody else. Chalmers is a project….Livingston likely doesn’t have much because if he did he’d be a Clippers for the small $$ they gave him….and Magloire, Blount, they are crap.
Everyone says James does it all alone….which is true to a degree, he’s the only real star…but the Cavs have been built with slightly below avg PF/C/PG/SG his entire time there with some depth. They jsut haven’t had another top 5 at their position player next to him.
Wade right now is a top 2 SG when healthy and he might have a #5 SF or bottom 10 PF in Marion next to him, but the rest are a far cry from top 30 at their positions….and that is why the Heat’ll struggle.
The facts are if they are mildly competitive and Wade has a great year, he should really get consideration for MVP.
kobe is not in a league by himself
he is not the best player in the league. Sorry to disappoint. If Kobe is such a good defender, than why does Paul Pierce have a Finals MVP trophy.
i see you are a kobe apologists
that video you posted was crap. Lebron was able to raise his game against the Celtics, Kobe was not. Boston beat the Lakers in 6 games, the Lebrons in 7. In that series Kobe averaged only 25 pts per game, 3 below his average. I thought the greatest player in the game (according to you) would raise his game during the Finals. I guess not. But don’t worry, he has better teammates this year. And maybe he won’t turn on like he always does!
We could have this conversation in a fanshot
Otherwise we anger the god(s) with our off topic chicanery.
by NBA Observer on Oct 30, 2008 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah!
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions
which Wade
The injured-hobbled Wade, or the healthy carry-a-team-on-his-back Wade?
I hope you are not suggesting that Gordon is in the same league as the carry-a-team-on-his-back Wade…
It is a sliding scale.
The gap between Gordon and Thabo is a similar gulf even though it isn’t the same gulf.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Anyone ever watch the Kids in the Hall
Gordon reminds me of a certain routine they used to do
Rod Torfulson’s Armada featuring Herman Menderchuk
Rod Torfulson’s Armada featuring Herman Menderchuk was a recurring sketch about a very bad garage band that had no hope of ever becoming real rock stars, but nevertheless took themselves very seriously and argued constantly about every aspect of the band’s career, sound and look. The sketches starred Bruce McCulloch as Rod (the drummer), Mark McKinney as Herman (the bass player), and Kevin McDonald as the lead guitarist. A recurring theme of the sketches was how McDonald’s character, despite writing and singing all the songs and being the only one with any real talent, was the least respected member of the group. (He is the only one whose name is not part of the group’s name, and in one sketch, he is forced to begin paying the others a salary in order to avoid being kicked out of the band.) “Trampoline Girl” was just one of their many non-hits. (“She’s a tramp, she’s tramp, she’s a trampoline girl…”) In their appearance in the final episode, a “Rock and Roll Angel” (portrayed by Black Crowes frontman Chris Robinson) appeared from on high and showed them their wretched future (“You suck!”), but they still persisted in believing that someday they’d “make it”.
Except he's not the only one on the Bulls teams with "real talent."
I’d say he’s at least behind 3 Bulls (Rose, Deng, Thomas) in regards to talent.
To be honest, I don’t see why everyone is getting so hot and heavy over Sefolosha. it sucks he’s starting, yeah, but how many minutes is he actually getting? I doubt his minutes are going to increase against Boston, unless he goes to the 3 and plays good D against Pierce.
But then what is even the point?
Brian McRae's 5 o'clock shadow
by PurpleLineToWrigley on Oct 30, 2008 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Who here wanted to ask Thorpe
about what drills Tyrus Thomas should do to finish non-dunks in the paint? And who also asked for other people to ask Thorpe? He kind of answered it.
David Thorpe: He shoots too many short shots with his palms up, almost finger rolling it, instead of fingers up and palms to the rim. I’m sure he will work on it, but he’s never been a great scorer. Remember, he’s younger than Al Horford.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Days of NBA Lives: Wherein Roy Hibbert tap-dances to Maine
- Grizzlies Valentine’s Day cards are the key to love
- Kevin Love would like the NBA to take the MLB’s approach on All-Star games
- Kobe Bryant fires a few hilarious salvos at Jeremy Lin
- Brandon Jennings states the obvious regarding his 2014 free agency, everyone goes nuts
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
