Rotation Rules for Vinny
by Scotter on Oct 28, 2008 4:19 PM CDT
39 comments
It's becoming clear that Vinny needs a little help figuring out lineups and rotations. This preseason has worn away a lot of the hope I had for Vinny's coaching. At least he didn't actually start Gray and bench Tyrus, but Vinny has left the impression that he might succomb to any stupid idea after this preseason. Starting Thabo is probably the smallest crime he could have committed so I'm trying to look at that positively. If starting Thabo is what Vinny is going to do then this is what he needs to do.
Backcourt
*If Thabo starts, Gordon replaces him before the 6 minute mark in the 1st quarter.
*Hinrich comes in for Rose, and he can play with Gordon, while Rose rests. Rose comes in for Gordon, and Hinrich moves to SG. Then Gordon comes back in for Hinrich to close the half.
If Thabo's spot in the starting lineup only amounts to 10-12 minutes in the backcourt, it's okay and actually makes the rest of the rotations easier. Gordon still gets his 32 minutes at SG. Hinrich hopefully comes in aggressive off the bench, which is when he's at his best. Hopefully he's effective enough to keep Rose from wearing out, and he can get 4-8 minutes in at SG. If Thabo is going to start this makes the best use of the four guys.
Frontcourt
*Deng plays 36+ minutes at SF, Thabo backs him up. Nocioni's days of playing SF are over unless there is actually someone Nocioni can guard on the floor at SF.
*Thomas starts at plays every minute his foul situation allows. It's time for the team to play its best and most talented big man.
*Noah can come off the bench, but he should be playing every minute his foul situation allows as well.
*Gooden can start at C if the matchup is okay. And he competes with Nocioni for minutes behind Thomas.
*Nocioni only plays backup minutes at PF, except for very specfic matchups at SF.
*Aaron Gray only plays meaningful minutes when Tyrus is on the floor with him. No Noah, and especially not Gooden or Nocioni.
The team really only needs a true center that could play 15-20 minutes per game to make the frontcourt rotations work. Thabo backs up Deng, Nocioni backus up Thomas, and Noah backups the new guy, but plays the bulk of the minutes at C. Vinny doesn't have to mix or match, it's simple 1 for 1 substitution. Gooden is the easiet piece to move, and I think Paxson should be trying to move him for a Rasho Nesterovic or similar player as soon as possible. Gooden isn't that big an upgrade over Nocioni as a backup 4, and his ineptitude defensively at center is a problem. And the team shouldn't be wasting shots or possessions on Gooden in his contract year. And I'd just as soon not leave the temptation around for Vinny to bench Thomas.
I think the team can work like that, and wins games. The talent is there, but it needs to be used properly. There are only a couple fo ways to make this collection of players work, and dozens of ways to turn this into a Jim Boylan like mess. So far it's feels like Vinny is headed toward creating a mess with either Larry Hughes, Aaron Gray, Drew Gooden, or Thabo. I hope to be pleasantly surprised tonight, but this preseason has worn much of the goodwill Vinny had coming in.
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In my opinion
Noce’s rebounding deficiency (as a power forward) offsets his defensive deficiency at SF. Further, I really, really don’t like Kirk at the 2, and I see most of Thabo’s defensive worth being as an off-guard, as his size/length/strength are not assets at SF. So while I mostly agree with you, I’d slide some of Noce’s minutes to the 3, some of Thabo’s minutes to the 2, and some of Kirk’s minutes to the bench.
"You ain’t as hot as I is / all of these false prophets is not messiahs /
You don’t know how high the sky is / the square mileage of earth or what pi is." - Nas
by Jivas on Oct 28, 2008 4:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I still think Kirk at the 2 is better than Thabo at the 2, and I think
Kirk likely plays better at the 2 if he’s had a chance to start the game at PG before sliding over.
You think think Thabo>Hinrich at the 2, but Nocioni>Thabo at the 3? At least up until this point, Thabo’s stats have been at SF than SG. His FG% is significantly higher and his turnovers are lower, and it mazimizes his one elite skill, defensive rebounding. Given that Thabo’s biggest defensive problem is keeping guys in front of him, rather than getting over powered, your argument doesn’t make much sense to me. He’s still longer than most SFs. And Nocioni’s defense is so terrible whenever he has to defend all the way out to the 3-point line, it makes it worth putting up with Thabo’s offense.
I’m clearly not one of the Nocioni defenders here, but you’re not giving up that much of on the boards by playing Nocioni at the four. On the defensive end, Nocioni has a 19% career defensive rebounding rate so his rate at just PF would be even higher, but 19% already places him in the mid-thirties among PFs. Grant many of them come as a result of stealing them from his teammates, but it is still not that big of an issue, especially if he’s playing against backup 4s. Playing Nocioni is giving up a lot offensive rebounding, but I’ve come to view that Nocioni spacing the floor and presumably getting back on defense is probably more valuable than the lost offensive rebounding.
by Scotter on Oct 28, 2008 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take your word for it
I really haven’t had time to break down each player’s floor time stats at each position, so my opinion is based on observation. I prefer actual data, so I’ll take your word for it.
I will say this – if Thabo really doesn’t play well at the 2, and if he’s not going to play well at the 2, I don’t think he has any real value to this team.
"You ain’t as hot as I is / all of these false prophets is not messiahs /
You don’t know how high the sky is / the square mileage of earth or what pi is." - Nas
by Jivas on Oct 28, 2008 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
got a question
whats wrong with Rose at the 2?
"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury "The Great"
by Belize on Oct 28, 2008 4:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure why you'd want to take the ball *out* of his hands
The strength of his offensive game is not off-the-ball; unless you wanted to give him a break for a few possessions, I’m not sure I see the value to this. Additionally, he doesn’t have enough size/strength to play the 2 on the defensive end.
"You ain’t as hot as I is / all of these false prophets is not messiahs /
You don’t know how high the sky is / the square mileage of earth or what pi is." - Nas
by Jivas on Oct 28, 2008 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's what i meant
not as a starter but if your gonna have kirk play the 2, might as well have Rose since he can score better
"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury "The Great"
by Belize on Oct 28, 2008 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that doesn't make any sense
Chris Paul doesn’t move to the 2 on special occasions. Nash doesn’t play the 2. If those guys are on the court, they play the 1. Why would you move him to the 2? Who is playing the 1? Rose shouldn’t adjust to Kirk, Kirk should adjust to Rose.
by DangerMouse on Oct 28, 2008 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rose is a better scorer
but Hinrich is a better shooter. Rose is also a better ballhandler. Why would you want to take it out of his hands?
by JeffD on Oct 30, 2008 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not surprised by the starting line up
After watching all the televised preseason games, l am not surprised by Del Negro’s decision of the starting 5 on Tuesday night’s season opener. The backcourt of Rose and Sefolosha made sense to me and when Hughes is healthy, I bet he will be Rose’s backcourt teammate unless Sefolosha proves to be working in the starting position. The defense of the Bulls shooting guard will be important since typically that is a very strong offensive position for the opposing team. With Deng, Thomas, and Gooden rounding out the other starters, the shooting guard position doesn’t need to be that much of a scoring option and Sefolosha and Hughes will be fine there.
Hinrich is best when used as a point guard, not a shooting guard. Having Hinrich and Gordon as the backcourt of the 2nd unit of players is the same as the past 4 years, but this time they are not starting, well Gordon didn’t start that much, but he is familiar with Hinrich’s game. The Bulls backcourt will be stronger than any opposing 2nd unit backcourt and that will be a huge advantage for the Bulls.
I pretty much have the same view about Hughes as everyone else. If Sam’s Smith 10-27-08 article is true that Wizards have interest in Hughes, then the Bulls need to play him, show everyone that he is healthy and work a trade with the Wizards. So, I won’t be surprised to find out the Hughes will start after rehab.
I think Sefolosha is best at the defensive SG position over the SF most of the time.
As for the frontcourt, I agree with you for the most part. But, I think Nocioni is best used as a back up to Deng at SF and then sliding over to PF when Del Negro wants to play small ball. Having Nocioni on the floor for his 3pt shot is important to extend the defense.
by macdren on Oct 30, 2008 4:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Im all for gordon starting
and hinrich coming off the bench.
Hinrich tweener ability works perfectly here, he can take over the one who is the most fatigued/foul troubled/sucking it up of the two starting guards. He can play point with gordon, or play sg with rose (really its not that bad if he continues to hit his shot). Whats more is that it allows hinrich to come in to be more aggressive on defense….which brings me to a point
THabo may not be great on offense, and may still make too many mistakes on defense but other sgs sort of have to work a bit harder to score on him (due to length, strength, defensive tenacity). While this may not completely stop the opposing 2 guards offense, it does sort of tire them, so when hinrich does check in, he can at least keep up with some of the quicker 2 guards and thus avoid picking up foolish fouls. I think thats the only plus i can see with thabo starting, hinrich picks up a majority of his fouls due to the opposing player out quicking him or over powering him, and thats usually at the start of games/halfs where the opposing player is the most rested. After a few minutes of thabo though opposing players should be a bit slower and weaker, so a fresh hinrich has a better chance of using fundemental and tennacious d on him without fouling.
Stil whether it be gordon or thabo, hinrich coming off the bench really works.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
by piccolomair on Oct 30, 2008 12:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It better be Gordon
but you make a very good point. This is surprising coming from a Hinrich fan.
by stupidgenius on Oct 30, 2008 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Contrary to popular belief, I don't think most Kirk fans are oblivious to his weaknesses
I really can’t speak for all of us, but I’ve always felt Kirk is much better as a 1 than a 2. Not starting BG has been frustrating over the last few years both because it put the best SG on the bench and because it forced Kirk to play more time where he was less comfortable. I personally never saw it as an argument over which of the 2 should start because I thought they both should.
I get irritated with people who talk like he doesn’t belong in the nba at all, and I did think that we should wait till Derrick at least got to training camp and showed he was ready to start before annointing him the automatic starter. I have no problem with Derrick starting since he’s clearly ready to do so. I still think it is the Bulls’ best interest to keep him around a while for those nights that are a little rougher for Derrick, but I don’t have some huge issue with him being traded to a team that needs a starting PG either – he’d be an upgrade for a lot of teams.
So sorry that’s kind of ranting and ramblish, but it kind of gets old around here when people assume that just because Kirk’s your guy that must mean you hate Ben, or that you’re going to dislike Derrick, or that you can’t have a rational basketball opinion. I’m not sure I could completely explain why I’m such a Kirk fan – I guess it’s the KU connection and a long-standing thing for solid but not flashy PGs, but I promise it’s not because I’m waiting for him to suddenly break out as the next huge super star.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
by wjb1492 on Oct 31, 2008 12:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
The Bulls best rotation for now and in the immediate future clearly involves Hinrich. Rose – PG; Gordon – SG; Hinrich – backup PG/SG. (sprinkle in Thabo wherever) I would think anyone w/ an objective, somewhat-realistic view of the situation could see this. It’s just too bad that it’s going to cost ~$20+ million to keep Hinrich and Gordon. However, as Scotter pointed out somewhere else, Hinrich’s contract runs out just as Rose’s would kick in. I’d be down for that back court (w/ a rookie or two in the future, maybe) for the next four years.
BTW, I really wish the bulls had somehow acquired Brandon Rush. I’m still convinced he’s going to be Thabo Sefolosha w/ a gorgeous jumpshot. (although he is only a year younger…)
by tyger1147 on Oct 31, 2008 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love Brandon's game
I’m not much of a gambler, though, so I’m OK with taking a solid guy who isn’t seen as having great upside but is ready to contribute in the immediate future. I think that bugs some people who worry more about passing up a potential superstar.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
by wjb1492 on Oct 31, 2008 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
IMO, luckily...
…he’s very athletic and that is usually the biggest reason for lack of potential. For him, it’s about a mental switch. He’ll probably never “get it”, as far as being so much more aggressive, but if not, like you said, he’s a very solid player.
by tyger1147 on Oct 31, 2008 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im a hinrich fan
And a bulls fan, i think people get sort of the wrong perception of me. Im not a blind fan, i want the bulls to win, and i want them to win with kirk on the team. Its my ideal. Having kirk on this team isnt a weakness, kirk is definetly a starting pg on most teams, but he is not and will never be as good as the star pgs, or the “point god” d-rose. Still hinrich gives this team a legitamate scoring option, an extremely great backup pg, and a tenacious defender.
I wanted kirk to get most improved player of the year, but ill settle for 6th man (moving gordon to start), in the end i think it will equal a recipe for success, now lets just get rid of the financial block
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
by piccolomair on Oct 31, 2008 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree about Kirk
Kirk is best as a point guard. And by having him being the first PG off the bench is what the Bulls need. NOW, I am not saying the Bulls haven a great lineup, but with what the Bulls have to offer, their starting lineup of Rose, Sefolosha (Gordon if he is able to help defense), Deng, Thomas ( though I am a bit bothered by his lack of recognition that his jumper in Beantown SUCKED! and he continued to take a jumper – get a clue and try something else.), Gooden (though I would prefer in Noah would start when he deserves it) works with what the Bulls have going now. Sad, but true.
by macdren on Nov 1, 2008 6:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You guys mind reccing this?
I don’t want it pushed off the page :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 1:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
awwww
you guys are the bestest, thanks :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 30, 2008 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is how I think it should be
PG: Rose plays 32 minutes here and Hinrich plays 16 minutes here.
SG: Gordon plays 32 minutes here and Hinrich plays 16 minutes here.
SF: Deng plays 32 minutes here and Nocioni plays 16 minutes here.
PF: Tyrus plays 32 minutes here and Nocioni plays 16 minutes here.
C: Gooden plays 24 minutes here and Noah plays 24 minutes here.
Barring any trades, this is what we’ve got, so we might as well make the most of it. Thabo and Aaron aren’t going anywhere, but if we’re playing a really big team, then they can play. These are just groundrules.
by stupidgenius on Oct 30, 2008 3:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm no fan of Gooden
Noah 32 and Gray 16 would work better for me
by BAB-Bass on Oct 31, 2008 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOVE IT!!
(Live) :)
with a sprinkle of thabo and gray and we have a real good rotation there.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
by piccolomair on Oct 31, 2008 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This takes advantage of
what has been called “incredible depth”.
by stupidgenius on Oct 30, 2008 3:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I like Hinrich and Gordon coming off the bench
They looked pissed off and out for blood during the pregame lineup calls. They both know they are good enough to start. Hell, the entire second line knows they are good enough to start. And they played well as a result.
by YaoPau on Oct 31, 2008 11:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You think
THe second string guys on the other team are afraid when they see hinrich and gordon step out on the floor:
“crap, those guys guys are gonna own us”
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
by piccolomair on Oct 31, 2008 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha, fair enough
they aren’t the most intimidating-looking duo to ever play the game. But they should be able to own opposing second stringers. They’re both top-15 guys at their respective position.
by YaoPau on Oct 31, 2008 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vinny said after the
game on Tues. night he was going with the same lineup. He loves him some taller guard in the lineup.
by sue369 on Oct 31, 2008 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We need to kidnap Larry Hughes soon
Stash him in Matt’s basement.
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 31, 2008 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you mean my mom's basement.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 31, 2008 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is a lot of Thabos in your rules
It should appear only once: Thabo will be on the bench unless everybody else is hurt or it is trash time (period)
by JustAnotherFan on Nov 7, 2008 11:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Our worst nightmare:
PG: Kirk Hinrich (Derrick is still only a rookie, and we think that, for all his talents, he should be eased into the lineup, since our record shows that we aren’t exactly the most sucessful team with such a young point guard. Point guard is the hardest position to learn, and we made a mistake by starting him right off the bat. We need to ease him into this role. Blech.)
SG: Larry Hughes (Larry has been a very solid contributer to teams in the past, and he brings the experience of playing and starting in the finals. We don’t want to get too used to having Ben, as he is someone who might not be with this team much longer. Larry fills a gap on this team with his height and length. Double Blech.)
SF: Andres Nocioni (Andres has shown that he can play very well so far, and Luol has been in a bit of a slump lately. We will, of course put Luol back into the starting lineup when he is out of his slump, but that time is undetermined, and Andres is a very capable player. Triple Blech.)
PF: Drew Gooden (Tyrus hasn’t been playing very well in the starter role, and Drew, like Larry, brings the experience of being in the finals, and is one of the bigger players at his position. We feel that Tyrus is still a little immature, and starting the more experienced Drew will help us as a team more. Quadruple Blech)
C: Aaron Gray (Aaron has shown that he is a very capable player in the past, and he brings a much needed post presence. Noah.. Wait what was that? Noah is his last name? What’s his first name? Joakim? What kind of a name is that? I mean, Joakim hasn’t been very productive in the minutes that he has played so far, while Aaron has been plsying well. Quintuple Blech)
The scariest thing is, this isn’t too far from what’s been happening so far. Sure, Derrick not starting is kind of far-fetched, but I can picture Pax starting Noce instead of Deng, and we had Drew and Gray starting in the frontcourt against Cleveland. It’s projected that Darth Hughes will stat when he gets back, and those arguements sound like Pax’s arguements. Shivers.
Get the rock to Rose!!
by stupidgenius on Nov 9, 2008 10:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
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