Only one more day of starting lineup speculation!
KC Johnson reports that Gordon will not be starting on Tuesday, though he has no source to confirm that information. It's not surprising, if true.
Brian Hanley of the Sun-Times is less definite in regards to Gordon, but mentions that VDN likes the idea of starting Gray and Gooden in the frontcourt.
Now I don't believe he'll actually do that, it's just common courtesy for the Chicago media to mention Aaron Gray as much as possible, for no real benefit to anyone and to the mental anguish of most sensible people.
But just in case, maybe I'll bring my 'fire Vinny' sign on Tuesday.
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You have a fire Vinny sign?
Wow, you are not even willing to give him a chance, huh?
The final sentence of the Sun Times article was interesting
Team chairman Jerry Reinsdorf was at practice, after which he was scheduled to meet with Ben Gordon.
What do you think those two could have been talking about? Money? Playing time? Professionalism? The future?
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
Sure I'm giving him a chance
if he starts Aaron Gray, the chance is squandered.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Del Negro says...
Yet Del Negro praised Gray, who lost 30 pounds during the off-season.
“He’s one of my best defensive big guys in terms of knowing what we’re trying to do,” Del Negro said. “He clogs up the lane with his size. He has a decent touch around the basket. There are a lot of pluses there.”
The coach considers Gray to be one of his best defensive big men. Judging by the preseason, he has been better than both Noah or Gooden.
I know its crazy to start a fundamentally sound big man who can score in the post on a team that needs post scoring…but I would be happy with Gray starting, just not over Thomas…and the sad thing is it looks like Gooden will be starting no matter what…so, it looks like Tyrus is going to get benched after having a decent preseason. Boo…
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
by Dionysus2.0 on Oct 27, 2008 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Sounds like a backhanded compliment to me
He refers to Gray knowing what they’re trying to do but not to his actual execution beyond clogging the lane. I may be reading too much into this, but I’m hopeful that VDN sees how Gray’s complete and utter lack of mobility completely overrides whatever advantage his size gives him on the defensive end.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
I agree that "in terms of knowing what we're trying to do" is a huge qualifier
Aaron can be the smartest player in the world and it’s only going to take him so far with his physical abilities and the way the game is played now. And since Drew, Joakim and Tyrus still look lost on defense fairly regularly (although Ty looks much better than years past!), Aaron having a better idea of the scheme really says more to me about them than about him.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
that's even more reason to doubt Vinny
Gray is awful on defense.
Though Vinny actually just says Gray “knows what to do” on defense, which may be true. Now if only he could move his feet up and down to accomplish those goals!
I think the past several years we’ve all gone mad with the lack of ‘post scoring’ to the point where the fact that Gray hucks in a sloppy hook shot looks great. He turns over the ball too much, he cannot run the floor, he can’t shoot a jumper, he can’t make a free throw. He is a foul machine on defense. He’s barely an NBA player.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Gray
Is too damn slow, but has definately improved defensively. He did make some “is that really Aaron Gray blockign that shot” moves.
Still he’s not consistently there, nor is he anywhere near as athletic or talented as the equally young Noah.
I wouldn’t mind seeing Gray start at C over Gooden (because Gooden’s just not a C) but I’d much rather see Noah in our lineup.
Gray though is proving he’ll have a career after this year barring injury.
I guess its easy to make blanket statements.
But not really back them up with any sort examples on the court. So the coach praises the player for his defensive work…rather than look for an example why the coach would praise the player publicly, you just say he is awful on defense.
For now, I will take the coach’s assessment of the player’s skill, considering the coach actually sees the player work on the court, in the practice room and on film.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
you didn't feel this way before?
My assessment is that Gray is terrible on defense. What’s yours?
Vinny also said Hughes had a good preseason. Coaches have to massage the truth a bit, ya know?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions
My assessment.
Gray is the only player on the Bulls who can get and hold an inside position against NBA centers…He is willing to be the only physical presence inside the paint for the Bulls…he rotates well on help D…he alters shots…His fouling rate is a concern, but young bigs often have problems with fouls early in their careers…he plays good fundamental basketball on both ends of the floor…
You criticize his foot speed, yet I don’t remember a single play this preseason where he was beat down the court by his man…you say he turns the ball over too much, but really its about 1 per game…he shoots over 50% from the field, passes well out of double teams…You are right that he does not hit the jumper well nor free throws well…he needs to improve on the free throw shooting…he does not need to be shoot jumpers.
Regardless, you are entitled to your opinion, I just feel it would be more responsible to support with something other than “he sucks, the end.”
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
footspeed translates
down to defensive rotation, getting to the rim, and big man footwork in the paint.
You’ll likely see “end to end” or “changing ends” and speed mentioned when the question is how fast or slow the player moves when changing possessions.
Gray moves his feet like a couple of cinder blocks.
by NBA Observer on Oct 27, 2008 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions
counter:
Gray is the only player on the Bulls who can get and hold an inside position against NBA centers…until he fouls or they score over him.
He is willing to be the only physical presence inside the paint for the Bulls…by fouling
he rotates well on help D…no he doesn’t, unless you’re not concerned about the timeliness of that rotation
he alters shots…when hacking the shooter’s arm
His fouling rate is a concern…agreed
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions
or Noah
I’d take either.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions
When the Bulls AGAIN...
get two of the best players to ever play the game and a helpside/defensive wiz PF leading the league (well half of one of three is getting there), Aaron Gray in his physical/athletic and basketball knowledge prime might be acceptable.
Bullsblogger obviously doesn’t translate into bulls fan huh? I mean, this isn’t fantasy draft. you get the best players you can and manage what you’ve got.
I like Gray starting, eating up a few minutes and then letting Joak-I-Am Noah come off the bench all frantic with his hands up.. He’s be playin no more than 20-25 this season, I think, so fouling out isn’t really a concern. As long as they aren’t dumb fouls, and as long as he gives us a post presence- I really don’t see that being that bad of an idea
Agree completely
I really have no problem with Gray on that basis. If I squint, I can sort of see him as a better option than Gooden.
Gooden over Thomas though makes me retract the compliment times two.
Ben and Jerry
That’s probably a good thing. Hopefully it’s an attempt and opportunity to get everyone on the same page and (re?) build some trust. It’s be good to have each side reassure the other that they’re going work hard and in each other’s interest.
Can Reinsdorf offer him anything
before his contract is up?
Ben must approve any trade
that involves him.
by NBA Observer on Oct 27, 2008 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions
not officially, no.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions
You were right all along.....
we really need BG. With Rose and Gordon on the court, it’s a real problem for the defense.
Hinrich, expensive but handy third guard.
Actually, the front court could be more effective with Rose and BG commanding a lot of attention.
I think it'd mean they wouldn't have to start Gooden for his pseudo-post scoring
but Hanley also mentions the possibility of starting Thabo, which would push him ahead of Gordon and Hinrich, who as you said is at least a good 3rd guard. I think it makes a lot of sense to play Kirk that way, even if it’s not a long term solution at that price.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
After 12/15?
Maybe he was asking him where he wanted to be traded?
Would benching Tyrus Thomas make any sense whatsoever?
Starting Gray at Center and Gooden at Power Forward cannot be a strategy to win ball games.
What is the objective?
Gooden
is less of a defensive liability at PF, but Tyrus is much more dynamic on both ends there. I’d prefer starting Noah if he was 100% (which he hasn’t been all preseason) and rotating Gooden for him. But with Noah as he is and Gooden bleeding out defensively as a center… still, “punishing” Tyrus doesn’t seem to be the right thing to do either. His rebounds have been great for us. Gray/Gooden will not get us rebounding but might be better offensively. If Noah was up to his old self Noah/Tyrus would make sense. Injury has screwed us over though.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
I don't get it either... I'm hoping that's just crazy speculation
If I’m starting Gray, I want to start Thomas next to him. Offensively, Gray gives you that weapon (ok, I’m using that term loosely) on the blocks, and it sort of negates the fact that Tyrus takes too many jumpers for my taste.
Yes, I realize that Gooden, offensively, is better than Thomas, but what I’m saying is that Tyrus has come along enough so he should be able to play fairly well with Gray.
Defensively, however, it’s no contest. With Gray, you want a guy that can bring it defensively, help, and rebound. Gooden doesn’t scare anyone at all with his help defense. Thomas can be a shot-blocking and rebounding fool.
Further, the biggest defensive problem with Tyrus, sticking to the scheme, helping at the right times, etc, are just as big problems with Gooden. Gooden is a team defense train-wreck. Tyrus is moderately better now, and has the potential to be outstanding.
If this really happens (Gooden-Gray), I’m going to start searching behind the bench for an Al Davis style red phone that Pax/Reinsdorf/someone uses to control the actual coaching. Because it’d be more evidence that there’s some kind of complete insanity that’s now transcended three coaches.
by Sports2 on Oct 27, 2008 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol and recced
Completely agree with this reasoning. Good post
NO!
I refuse to even acknowledge the possibility that TT will be benched after the preseason and offseason that he just had. VDN seemed 100% committed to playing him regular minutes throughout the preseason – the final game in which he was playing through a minor injury notwithstanding – so my head is in the sand on this one.
I don’t even want to hear it.
"You ain’t as hot as I is / all of these false prophets is not messiahs /
You don’t know how high the sky is / the square mileage of earth or what pi is." - Nas
It really would be a giant Screw You
to Tyrus. Great offseason, very good preseason. Seems to have rapport with Rose. Has, to my way of think, outplayed Gooden – and Gooden is gone after this year. Not only that, but they’re trying to build trust with Tyrus, something that hasn’t been there in the past.
This would be VDN’s first big mistake. Frankly, I’d prefer a Thomas/Gray frontcourt to a Gooden/Gray frontcourt anyday.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
This is why I think this talk has to be for trade purposes
by NBA Observer on Oct 27, 2008 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm a little confused (bear with me, I'm in exams):
do you mean the talk between Jerry and BG, or the talk about starting Gray?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
A little of both
But moreso as applied to Gooden and Gray since the Chairman can trade either of them whenever he wants.
Gordon has the quasi “no trade clause” to proect his Bird rights. He also cannot be traded until after 12/15.
by NBA Observer on Oct 27, 2008 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions
I thought it was January 1
Because of the 3-month, whichever is longer thing…
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
Seems to be similar
To the constant Larry Hughes has had the most brilliant preseason that I who watched from the inside and knew Michael Jordan (Stacey King) ever saw….
And all the VDN talk of Larry’s great 30% shooting, jack em up preseason philosophy….
more
Putting Gooden and Gray out there to start would send two frontcourt players in the last year on their contracts on the floor for a possible showcase to teams in the NBA. There are a several teams that still have big needs at PF and Center. Some are contenders(Orlando) and others are rebuilding(Bobcats, Kings, Twolves).
Noah hasn’t looked very good in the preseason, but I doubt he’s in the doghouse already.
by NBA Observer on Oct 27, 2008 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think NBA teams are showcasing on Game 1
I guess VDN just doesn’t want to go small. Gray has outplayed Noah in the preseason. As for Gooden over Thomas, they’ve been about equal statistically this preseason (Gooden scoring/efficiency, Thomas D and rebounding), so he went with the veteran. I don’t agree, but I don’t see it as a crazy decision.
Thomas actually had a higher
offensive rating than Gooden in the preseason, 106 to 103. Thomas was better on both ends of the floor. Gooden shot 54%, but he had a ton of turnovers and didn’t get to the FT line at all.
He also dispelled any notion that he's a legit post presence
Since most of his points come on turnaround jumpers or 15 foot jumpshots.
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 27, 2008 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Did you see his quote about playing C?
I’ll have to go find it, but basically he said he likes it because he matches up so well offensively with centers not wanting to come out and cover him. No mention of the horrid defense he’s played there….
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
Yeah I never realized Gooden was a bad defender
It’s not like he doesn’t have the body, he’s just an idiot out there. Considering our D was so horrible last year due to poor rotations, missed assignments, etc I don’t feel great having him playing heavy minutes at C.
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 27, 2008 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
That isn't fair to judge Gooden on either
when he’s playing Center. Of course he’s going to take centers away from the basket. If he played against PFs, I think you’d see a shift in Gooden’s play towards the basket. Gooden should be very limited in his center minutes IMO. But at the same time, Tyrus needs at least 30mpg so VDN is kind of stuck.
It will shape out during the season depending on how well Tyrus continues to play
If he’s going to build on a strong preseason and mature into the player we all think he can be, then Gooden should be the one to be jerked around minutes-wise. I know he’s a talented scorer, the best we have in the frontcourt, but I feel it’s more important to see what Tyrus can do with consistent starting minutes first.
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 27, 2008 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I was just looking at TS% and pts/40
Gooden averaged 1 more point/40 but with a 10% higher TS%.
I ran the preseason stats.
Gooden had a TO% of 20% and Thomas was around 14% in the preseason if IIRC. Thomas had the ebst TO% of the guys who played at least a 100 minutes in the preseason.
I don't see how that matters...
A/TO is relevant at every position. Looking to make plays is a cause for higher turnovers (hence Goodens significantly higher assist totals). Gooden could have a TO% of zero if he just took jump shots and never looked to pass.
if gray starts on tuesday
i’m going to hang myself with my tyrus jersey.
by Calogero on Oct 27, 2008 9:28 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
give a whole game chance!
Matt, you need to give Vinny a whole game before you whip out the grave stone.
But, bring it to the Grizzlies game.
I’m going to the Bulls-Celtics game on Oct 31, because I live in Boston.
by chicago-homesick-blues on Oct 27, 2008 9:37 AM CDT reply actions
im tryin to score tix to that one
if im there, i’ll be the guy blackout drunk in the 300s shouting obscenities at larry hughes
Bring a sling
Bring your own injury, hide your own beer.
by NBA Observer on Oct 27, 2008 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions
hopefully larry will be the one in a sling
although these reports that he could be back within 2 weeks are really disheartening
I tell you one thing
The offense with or without Rose has been slowing moving more and not playing 95% drive and kick, 5% Gordon try to get a shot up mentality that we’ve played the last 3 years (the first year or two with Scott wasn’t quite so much of the same).
I actually think Vinny’s doing a very solid start as a coach, the team has made adjustments….now whether that’s Vinny or the great Del Harris is another thing, but so far so good)….
Did Aaron Gray start any preseason games?
I don’t remember him being in the starting line up for any of those games. I didn’t see the last one however.
he did start the final preseason game
and the Bulls had a big first quarter. Causation!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions
You forgot to stick Thabo in there, too. ;) Clearly a starting duo
And then there’s the inescapable conclusion that they won every game Kirk came off the bench. I’m looking forward to the competition between Kirk and Ben to see who “gets” to play that comfortable role off the bench and who “has” to start.
(I actually read that line about winning every game Kirk comes off the bench in one of the papers this morning, just don’t remember which…)
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
He started the last two preseason games
Tyrus sat with a sore ankle. Gooden started at PF. The team opened both of those games very strong offensively and defensively.
by NBA Observer on Oct 27, 2008 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Just like they did when Kirk and Larry started the first Minny game and Derrick came off the bench...
Maybe starting strong against the T-Wolves and Bucks isn’t quite enough to draw a conclusion from yet.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
He and Thabo and Noc started the final game (with Rose and Gooden)
The last pre-season game, I thought I read, went the way it did because of various injuries. But then I was surprised (because I thought it was due to an injury that he didn’t start) to see Tyrus play. And he sort of stank it up.
Now I’m reading Gray and Gooden might be favored for the starting lineup.
I mean, I’ll not totally flip out until I actually see it happen, but isn’t this exactly the sort of messed up shit that people complained out happening with Tyrus over the last few years?
Here he is, having a kick ass pre-season by every account, and then suddenly he’s benched? I’ve always thought he was a little bit fragile mentally, but that’d be enough to shake the confidence of a lot of players.
McGraw story has something interesting
“No, that’s one thing good thing about Jerry,” Del Negro said. “He hires you, then lets you go to work and do your job. That’s been great. He’s been very supportive in the things I’ve wanted to do in terms of changing some of the facilities, with player movement and things. He’s been doing it a long time. He knows the ropes pretty well.”
I’d like to know more about Vinny’s facilties changes and how the Chairman has reacted to them.
hair dryers in the bathroom
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions
the Daily Herald
had a quick blurb back in Sept:
The roads leading to the Berto Center are a mess, but the building’s interior also is undergoing a facelift – at Del Negro’s request.
His new vision for the Bulls’ practice facility includes a state of the art coaches’ conference room and a door leading straight from the media room to the basketball court. Del Negro is even relocating some of the artwork on the walls.
by NormVanBeer on Oct 27, 2008 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Wouldn't it be better to start Noah/Gooden instead?
Is VDN this obsessed with missed practices? Good thing AI isn’t a Bull.
by RogersPark Kris on Oct 27, 2008 9:52 AM CDT reply actions
I'd bring Gooden off the bench
Let him be a vet that enters to pummel on the opponents second string front court.
Noah and Thomas have the legs and youth to keep us active and running early.
by NBA Observer on Oct 27, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions
First of all,
who cares who starts.
Second, Aaron Gray is the only player on our team with a post move that isn’t a fadeaway. I hope he continues to start and play a lot of minutes. Hopefully it will convince Tyrus and Noah to start developing a skill as well. I’m just looking for one, here.
It's easy to take away his skills
He turns it over quite easily when he holds the ball at his waist, he barrels right into whatever defender is in the paint, and he’s flagged for pushing fouls while trying to jockey for position to rebound.
A good defense will completely stifle whatever effective offense Gray could deliver.
by NBA Observer on Oct 27, 2008 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, and he's 23
It seems like most discussions of We Have to Give Minutes To The Young Guys tend to leave out Aaron Gray, when it seems like he has as much of a learning curve as anybody since he doesn’t have to do anything spectacular to be really effective in this league.
Chris Kaman, for example, went from a 9.6 PER, 50.2 TS% player his rookie year to a 17.5 PER, 53.8 TS% player last season after adding a reliable hook shot. Not to say Gray will ever be Chris Kaman, but last year Gray put up a 13.9 PER and 52.9 TS%, so he’s already ahead of pace with a similar game.
It’s too soon to write off Gray as a non-contributor. His size alone means he only has to hone up his game in certain areas to deserve rotation minutes on any team in this league.
And while Noah and Tyrus and Thabo look the exact same as last year...
Gray lost 20 pounds! Love that, and I’ll reward the effort anyday.
are you implying that noah/tyrus/thabo should've lost weight?
i find it’s generally easier to lose 20 pounds when you’re 40 pounds overweight.
Gray worked on what he needed to work on, his conditioning
Noah and Tyrus needed to add a post move, Thabo a jumpshot. Yet all three look like the same incomplete players we saw last season.
Gray needed to work on basketball
Noah and Tyrus didn’t need to work on anything to be better than Aaron Gray.
They’re not equals, didn’t come into the league as equals, and there is more responsibility placed on them to be good. It’s ridiculous to think of this preseason as some sort of ledger where Gray can be compared to them in terms of improvement.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Thabo's jump shot looks better
he just didn’t convert at a much better rate.
oh my.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions
I won't write off Gray as a non-contributor
He will contribute. I just want those contributions coming off the bench and in situations where it’s a real advantage to clog the paint instead of leaving it open to be carved up by Rose, Gordon, Deng, and Thomas.
Kaman’s fundamentals are well ahead of gray. Kaman knows a big man doesn’t bring the ball down to his waist. Keep it at the shoulders or above and the little men will hack you.
Kaman is also a rebounding machine because he’s got the feet and balance to go to the ball.
The biggest reason I want Tryus starting is for the rebounding. We have to rebound to be competitive. If Gray doesn’t get the board it’s a fast break against us or an easy putback which piles up the points in the paint against.
by NBA Observer on Oct 27, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
To be fair, Gray outrebounded Tyrus last year
Gray is clearly a backup center, albeit a not so bad one. I’m not so down on the guy just because he’s slow. Almost every team in the league has a lumbering big guy that we can use Gray against.
eh
outrebounded if the NBA gives Gray 7 fouls per.
I need to “get caught up on life”.
by NBA Observer on Oct 27, 2008 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Okay, so your differences between Kaman and Gray are...
1) Kaman knows a big man doesn’t bring the ball down to his waist. Not a difficult problem to overcome. Seems like something Gray could figure out on his own quickly with consistent playing time.
2) Kaman is also a rebounding machine. Gray has more reb/36 than Kaman did in his rookie year. For their careers, Gray is at 9.9 reb/36, Kaman is at 10.3.
Don’t forget Aaron Gray was projected as a mid-first round pick until Pitt crapped out in the Big East tourney when Gray got dominated by Hibbert. That one bad game aside, we got ourselves a decent talent.
Kamon is also ambidextrous.
He can use either hand to score in the post. Is athletic enough to be a shot blocker.
But, he is like Gray in that his offensive value is overrated because he’s a turnover machine on offense.
Gray can't make it to 36 minutes
You only get 6 fouls.
That’s why the scouts dog him for his weight.
by NBA Observer on Oct 27, 2008 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, and Maciej Lampe slipped out of the lottery too.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
You're basing an awful lot on draft position
Rafael Araujo, Mike Sweetney, and DeSagana Diop slipped into the lottery too. One problem – they didn’t have any actual skills, so they never became anything.
One problem with always drafting guys who got to the Final Four the previous season, is that those guys got to the Final Four the previous season. It’s nice that they showed they can play under pressure, but it also means that their stock is probably inflated. Just because Noah was drafted higher than Gray doesn’t mean he’s the better prospect.
DeSagana Diop is 20 times the player
Aaron Gray is.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions
(or has had 20 times the career, I should say)
he played 18mpg and was the defensive anchor off the bench on a 67-win team.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions
If Aaron Gray
can produce like Lasagna Flop, then I am predicting a 50 win season, my friends.
Bulls.
by messwiththebull on Oct 27, 2008 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lasgna Flop. Nice.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
So you don't think Gray is even worthy of a backup center
15 minutes a night? He puts up respectable numbers both individually (PER) and unadjusted +/-. And it’s only his second year in which he lost 30lbs. I see nothing but positives there.
8 minutes.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions
basically I think of him as...I don't think of him
if he comes in for a stretch every 3rd game, fine. If he gets a bunch of DNPs, fine. He’s not a priority because he can’t really play.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't walk alone near the UC
Stacey King and Red would love to have a word with you.
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 27, 2008 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Here's the link to Gray's draft stock btw
http://web.archive.org/web/20070210013349/http://nbadraft.net/
That’s nbadraft.net’s projection on February 10th, 2007, just before the Big East tournament. We didn’t get a walking blob with our 2nd round pick – he actually has some talent and upside.
but enough about Omer Asik.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
You will eat your words
like Aaron Gray eats a 20 sack
by YaoPau on Oct 27, 2008 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
i dont think aaron gray's mother
is as big a fan of him as you are.
Big people need the most love
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 27, 2008 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree w/ that.
Just that, in a team that wants to run-run-run, he’s no starting C answer. If Noah can’t body up Dwight Howard, Aaron Gray isn’t going to be able to stay w/ him speed-wise. Let Gray start against the Eddy Curry’s of the world. Unless you want someone like Noah to dominate curry on offense that is. Wait, that’s anybody.
Heh, if he loses another 20lbs on top of the 30lbs he already lost
He might get somewhere close to Kaman.
He’s still not in NBA shape.
starting equals 12 minutes of playing time
that’s too much for Gray, and that’s the bare minimum.
Also, tell Gordon’s agent how important starting is.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
I’m really not worried about starting or not starting, it’s the minutes distribution that concerns me, and it’s less likely that Tyrus will play 30 minutes if he’s sitting out the first 8-10.
"You ain’t as hot as I is / all of these false prophets is not messiahs /
You don’t know how high the sky is / the square mileage of earth or what pi is." - Nas
Looks like you are about to re-sign Michael Ruffin
According to the Tribune.
Odenied: If you're given lemmings—make lemming-ade (Bow4Meow)
listen, you can't start a season without a guy like Mike Ruffin on the roster
he showed he has plenty left by playing zero minutes all preseason with an ankle injury.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions
im stunned our old friend skiles didnt make a move for him
old, useless, can be used to inexplicably bench villanueva. why have only 1 malik allen when you can have 2?!?!
what's funny is that my sister (who lives abroad)
hadn’t heard about the bulls adding ruffin to the preseason roster, and also said something like “watch skiles sign michael ruffin!” lol.
i’d’ve rather given one of the younger guys who actually played a chance, since i’m sure they can match his production. i don’t really care about the “locker room presence” that i didn’t even know ruffin was known for.
That's annoying
I would be fine with Ruffin as a 3rd big C/PF (presuming Noah then Gray then way way in the back Ruffin after we try Gooden and Thomas 1st)….but then the Pacers let Croshere go.
Now Croshere ain’t really a C either (but really neither is Ruffin), but presumably for the same change, why don’t we get Croshere, he can at least play the game a bit and isn’t just a rebounding big man?
And like I said in the post
I don’t actually think VDN would start Aaron Gray. Skiles started floating the same crap last year, and even at his tinkering best he didn’t go through with it.
Like I said it’s just the nature of Bulls media to say Aaron Gray a lot. Also, it helps to bait people who actually think it’s a good idea…which puts you on my ‘list’.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 10:48 AM CDT reply actions
Maybe the opponent will dictate the front line like VDN said
and maybe Rose/Gordon will dictate the backcourt TO the opponents!
Another possibility
is there are “those in the organization” who are just as big of true believers in Aaron Gray as they are in Drew Gooden, Kirk Hinrich, Larry Hughes, Apple Pie, kittens, the American Way, and keeping Ben Gordon in his place.
after tyrus got pulled from the last preseason game because vdn didn't like the way he was moving around
i’m wondering if the reason we’re hearing any speculation about tt not starting is just due to his questionable ankle.
Cashing checks and having sex.
He is a dirty player....but you're not allowed to call him dirty!
After the game, I asked Jefferson for his take on the incident. Did he think Nocioni’s foul was retaliation for the one on Rose? Keep in mind that this conversation was good-natured all the way through. Jefferson was not upset or angry and it was nice to hear a player of his caliber open up.
“How long have you been following the Bulls? What type of player do you think Nocioni is?” Jefferson answered. “Don’t ask me a question if you already know the answer.”
http://blogs.dailyherald.com/node/816
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
::cough:: fanshot ::cough::
(just trying to help the flow)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
F*ck Richard Jefferson
he’s been a crybaby since A of U.
by RogersPark Kris on Oct 27, 2008 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Is Deng and Noah considered "injured" right now?
This is what I think the starting five will be:
Rose
Hinrich
Nocioni*
Gooden*
Gray*
I would want, and it probably should, be:
Rose
Hinrich
Deng
Thomas
Noah
(*yeah, i’m believing the hype from today’s news)
Noc isn't getting hype to start.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions
hmmm
Hanley just says “they could start with the same lineup as the one that started against the Bucks, they did ok”. I didn’t take it as an actual report (or speculation from Vinny) that starting Noc was possible. (unlike Gray)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Do you honestly think that they would start someone over the guy
They just handed a 72 million dollar contract extension to? Unless there’s an injury or he bitch slaps Del Negro, Deng is your starting SF for every game this year
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 27, 2008 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Which is a REALLY bad reason to start someone
Should be earned, gawd deng it! ;)
Or who plays better together….
Just no based on salaries, please….
Well Deng's a better player so there's no need to worry
But just saying, a player who just got extended a few months ago isn’t exactly going to be riding the pine.
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 27, 2008 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Umm...
Would they hand out $72 million dollars if they didn’t think he earned it? If they think that he did “earn” that money, my guess is they think he “earned” the starting spot over the past four years. If those if-then statements are correct, 6 games (preseason, no less) wouldn’t change any reasonable person’s mind.
Heh
Contract status is only a legit reason to play a guy when some other team gave him the contract (ex: Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, Michael Sweetney) and the Bulls traded for it.
If the Bulls gave the contract themselves, it’s an indication the player will be traded in the next two seasons.
Unless that player is a gritty white guy
So, Noce is safe, but Kirk better keep those shoulders up all year or he might be in Jerry’s doghouse next year. Actually, Jerry’s a loyal guy, Kirk can probably go two more seasons as the “mopey Iowan” before he feels any real heat.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Mopey may have been retired
Feisty may have been born. He almost got into it with Richard Jefferson in the Friday Night Bucks game.
by NBA Observer on Oct 27, 2008 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions
that was indeed a sign of life
though Stacy was taking it a bit overboard with the “this is what the team needs!” talk. Remember when Eddy Curry punched Brendan Haywood in the nuts? They started 2-7 or something that year.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions
0-9 to be precise
But watching Antonio Davis try to bodyslam Haywood was quite comical.
I thought it was funny how Stacey got hyped like Kirk was some kind of enforcer, but it’s always a good sign that the Bulls don’t want to get walked over like they were last year.
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 27, 2008 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions
But
Eddy Curry was never nearly the player Ol’ Mopey is and was…..Eddy was all hype and “potential”….Kirk a short 2 years ago was actually quite good for a while and it wasn’t all a one season fluke….
Got me on that one
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
It will probably be what the most logical
combination seems to be right now:
Rose
Hinrich
Deng
Thomas
Gooden
by messwiththebull on Oct 27, 2008 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions
OT: Fantasy Basketball
Some fool dropped out, I need one more team to sign up.
League ID: 76934
Password: bulls
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
KC just said
on CTL that he “thinks” Thabo will get the start with Rose tomorrow night with Kirk coming off the bench again. No mention of BG. He also said he is very impressed with TT this season.
Wow.
Thabo over Kirk is a bit of a surprise.
by messwiththebull on Oct 27, 2008 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Seems VDN is scheming to stop Redd from going off
I don’t like the notion of Thabo starting when his preseason was just so meh. I’d even prefer Kirk because Redd is an awful defender and he could realistically drop 20+ again, and I’m unsure of how much of a rapport BG and Rose have.
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 27, 2008 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Prepare for bitching tomorrow night
With Thabo getting a min of 12-15 minutes, and Rose 30-35, there isn’t much time left for Hinrich and Gordon. Sounds like we won’t see huge Gordon minutes Game 1.
There's the old saying that you make a good offensive player work at the other end
How hard is Redd going to have to work covering Thabo?
That really gets to the heart of the silliness that is this whole guard controversy. Unless Thabo goes all Ron Artest or Bruce Bowen tomorrow night (and even if he does), good players like Redd are going to get their points against him.
Does anyone think Scott Skiles and Michael Redd are sitting up tonight concerned that Thabo’s going to take the court against them? No, Skiles is probably going to tell Redd to go right at him offensively, the way he would against any of the other 29 teams in the league.
Then how is Skiles going to look at it defensively. He’ll probably run down Redd for being an awful defender before too long, but is this the matchup that’s going to expose Redd as a bad defender? Umm… probably not. Could Gordon exploit Redd’s deficiencies. You bet. Hinrich, if he’s on his game, could easily go for 25 against Rose. Do we expect Thabo to do that? No.
All of which is a long-winded way to say the new coach seems to be playing to the other team’s strengths rather than attacking their weaknesses.
Exactly
Good scorers usually get theirs, even if it’s made a little more difficult by a better defender. Shouldn’t Vinny be more concerned about his team racking points up? The Bulls shot 70 percent in the 1st quarter on Friday. That’s an abysmal defense you take advantage of to no end.
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 27, 2008 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions
They are trying their hardest
to make me pissed rather than happy for the opening game this season, aren’t they? Why not start Thabo and Gray and roll over on our backs and admit this season is a loss right now I guess. headdesk I guess we are not even shooting for competitive. Would any other NBA team start them? I guess NY is starting Duhon. Must be a fad.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
If the objective was just to put the 5 best scorers together,
GMing bball teams would be simple. But it isn’t all about scoring. If you’re playing Rose, Deng, Gooden and TT there aren’t enough basketballs to go around. Last year, Redd averaged 29ppg against the Bulls. He’s their best scorer. No one on that team can play defense so I wouldn’t worry that we’ll have 12 points after the first quarter if we start Thabo.
well I hope Derrick Rose appreciates
that extra defender coming at him.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh yeah,
Redd is constantly lauded for his help defense.
you forget
Skiles will be screaming! :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions
wait
there aren’t enough balls to go around between TT, Gooden, Rose and Deng? Deng and Gooden are jumpshooters who just look for someone to create for them. And I would prefer if TT took a couple less shots per game. But that is just me. Its not like we are starting Kobe, Odom, Gasol and Bynum. C’mon.
I also think the Celtics should bring Ray Allen off the bench.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions
So can you tell me why
the Spurs started Bowen/Finley, and brought Manu off the bench. You know, when they won the NBA title.
You can find examples on both sides.
Or how about the Suns
They start Raja Bell and bring Barbosa off the bench.
The Nuggets
start Anthony Carter, and bring JR Smith off the bench
And the Mavericks
start Antoine Wright and bring Jason Terry off the bench
all those teams you name
have established stars in their starting units as well as other reasons to put certain guys on the bench. San Antonio has Parker and Duncan, plus they can let Ginobli control the game off the bench. Babosa isn’t better than Bell, but even if he was, they have Nash/Hill/Amare/Shaq who all need the ball. The Nuggets start the only point guard on their team plus have AI and Melo. Jason Terry? Really…
The Bulls have Gooden and Deng as their go to guys. That really isn’t comparable. We are going to start the game with our 4 highest volume shooters (Noce, Gordon, Hughes, Hinrich) on the bench. No team does that. I’m not freaking out about Thabo starting. But comparing the Bulls to teams that all have at least 2 SUPERSTARS is not the best argument.
by DangerMouse on Oct 27, 2008 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Is CJ Bulls actually Bullshooter? Eh?
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Yep
The other fairly obvious point is that those other teams are typically putting a great long-distance shooter on the floor. Bowen, Bell, Finley, those guys can shoot the lights out.
I don’t know about all the other guys, in some cases they might be paired up with guys who are great shooters, so their lack of shooting won’t matter.
Thabo can’t shoot for shit. And for that matter, pairing him up with Deng, who doesn’t have three point range, and Rose, who also doesn’t have three point range, borders on criminal mis-use of Rose’s talents.
And basic common sense.
Virtually all of those guys
didn’t start out as good 3pt shooters. They’ve adjusted in into their games as their careers have moved on. Give the kid a chance to expand. As a catch and shoot guy, granted only in the preseason, Thabo was actually pretty effective at 3s. It was when he was pulling up off the dribble that he was airballing them.
As for those other examples….Anthony Carter is not a 3pt shooter, nor is AI, nor is Carmelo
And in Dallas, Antoine Wright is not a 3pt shooter. Nor is Kidd, nor is Howard.
I don’t hear about the criminal mis-use of talent on Kidd’s behalf in Dallas.
You conveniently left Rose out.
The same guy who was double teamed at the three point line for parts of the pre-season.
Rose isn't quite
on the level of Duncan, Amare, Nash, CP3 or Dirk. But keep talking…
Why even play the game
I mean they’ll just be so terrible with Thabo starting why even bother?
Gooden is not a jump shooter
TT is more of a jump shooter than Gooden. I don’t see what offense Hinrich would contribute more than thabo off the dribble.
If Gooden isn't a jump shooter
what is he? I saw a guy hoisting 19 footers and making an occasional play around the basket. He has some other skills, but the guy isn’t posting up, and he isn’t putting the ball on the floor and going past people. I think he is trying to be Okur or something.
by DangerMouse on Oct 27, 2008 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I think what you were seeing
is the problem of Gooden playing Center. At power forward you would see a significant rise in post ups. He’s shooting jumpers at center because most centers won’t come out that far.
Considering Skiles regard for Thabo as a player
Skiles and Redd may be sitting up having a party.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
well, that's embarrasing
go team!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions
maybe that was the big talk Reinsdorf had with Ben
“Hey Ben, just came by to say…welcome to fucked city, population: you.”
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Prepare for the Thabo hate.
This is like the friendly’s bloggers worst nightmare…Thabo and Gray starting opening night. I will be looking for your sign tomorrow night…I will have mine “Fire Skiles, Check, Fire Boylan, Check, #1 Pick, Checkmate”
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
by Dionysus2.0 on Oct 27, 2008 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions
I just hate the Bulls at this point
it’s not the players fault they’re misused.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions

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