Game 1: Starters?
Based on VDN's preseason lineups and newspaper speculation, I believe the Bulls are probably entering Game 1 against Milwaukee with the following starting lineup:
PG-Rose
SG-Hinrich
SF-Deng
PF-Thomas
C-Gooden
Is anyone happy with this ilneup? It seems to be a compromise of all the players we have? For instance, Gordon is a scorer with little D while Thabo is a defender with little scoring so let's put in Hinrich. And VDN can't determine who's better for the PF, Gooden or Thomas, so let's just play them both.
I think VDN should mess around with the lineup early on based on matchups until he can find who deserves to be starting. For instance, Game 1 is a great example of why a Gordon/Rose backcourt could struggle. Deng has to take Richard Jefferson. That leaves either Gordon/Rose to take Michael Redd. Neither one can even affect his shot and we risk letting Redd get into a rhythm early. I favor starting Thabo for game 1 to slow Redd early before bringing in Gordon. I'm not saying play Thabo huge minutes, but the first 6 minutes of each half could go a long way towards setting the tempo/style. If the rest of the lineup stays as listed above, it's not like there isn't plenty of offense available that Thabo's lack of scoring will matter.
As for the PF/C positions, I don't agree with starting Gooden at Center. He's going to be outsized on a nightly basis, and we have two legitimate Centers on the roster that could do a better job. Gooden seems like a natural fit next to Noah, while TT a good fit with Gray. I'd prefer to see Vinny start one of those two sets so that we can start off with a more traditional lineup and save the small ball for random spots in the game when he's trying to change the momentum.
What does everyone at BAB think about the lineup? And should Vinny determine a consistent starting lineup, or play with it depending on matchups?
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I think a lineup based on matchups
is far more effective. How about we start this against the Bucks:
PG: Rose (No explanation necessary.)
SG: Thabo (Can stop Redd from getting into a rhythm, and then send out Gordon to take advantage.)
SF: Deng (Can stop Jefferson from getting into a rhythm.)
PF: Tyrus (Will run the slower Villanueva into the ground like he did with Okur.)
C: Noah (Bogut is one of the skinnier 7-footers, so we should be able to get away with this. I think if we play Gray about 20 minutes, we’ll be fine.)
This is a line-up I can roll with
Perhaps switching Noce in for Deng.
I also have other interesting line-ups that I’d like to try, but that’s ok for starters.
( I was going to write a post about this as well if nobody else did. good job, Cj ;) )
lik this too
rather have Ben @ SG..but he hasnt earned it
"You’re caught up in basketball. Get caught up in life" - Starbury "The Great"
Thabo (Can stop Redd from getting into a rhythm)
::barfed::
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 26, 2008 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions
question
why should the Bulls gameplan for the friggin’ Bucks?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 26, 2008 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions
follow-up
wouldn’t the Bucks be a little worried about Redd/Ridnour matching up against Gordon and Rose? Who the heck is Redd going to guard? (the answer is nobody, by the way)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 26, 2008 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions
I believe you misphrased your second question:
Who the heck can redd guard?
"Worker bees can leave.
Even drones can fly away.
The Queen is their slave."
If they were "a little worried about Redd/Ridnour vs Gordon/Rose"
wouldn’t they contract shingles, hives, and have serious heart palpatations at the prospect of having to face Rose/Thabo. How would they score?
I think you misunderstood...
I think the point was how will they defend US.
Asked what kind of player he expects to be in the next five years, he said: "Not a star, but like, a superstar. Something around, like, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, something like that."
Thabo is not a lock-down defender
there are few in the league to begin with….and he’s definitely not one of them yet. He has the tools to be one, but so does Dahntay Jones.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 26, 2008 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions
BigWay
Apparently they saved the best for first. This should be our starting line-up all season long, period, at least until we trade any or all of the non starters (Hinrich, Gooden, Nocioni, Gordon) for someone worthy of starting.
The reasons for this lineup are many, beginning with the fact that this is a transition year in which we are trying to figure out how to build a team around Rose. We already know what Hinrich, Gooden, Nocioni, and Gordon are going to give us, not enough as starters in all four cases. We need to find out what our young athletes can do. Unfortunately in the NBA size, in particular, height does matter. We cannot continue to trot out undersized lineups and dig ourselves into a hole at the start of every game. We cannot have the double midget backcourt, like we did all of last season. Therefore, Hughes and Thabo are the onlly choices to start with Rose, since Hughes is nothing more than salary cap garbage and is not in the Bulls long term plans he should never start, and probably be sent home to smoke crack with Eddie Robinson until his contract runs out or we can trade him as an expiring contract. That said, Gordon should be the first guard off the bench, and Thabo can move up to the the small forward spot to give Deng a break. HInrich should be Rose’s backkup and that is it, 12 minutes a night max until he too is traded. Thabo needs consistent qualtiy minutes to play his best, as we found out at the end of last season, when injuries finally allowed him to get the time he deserves.
Gooden has never been a center and will never be, period. Noah should start, and Gray should get all the backup minutes, period. Gooden is the veteran and he might have the contract to be the starter at the 4, but we need to find out about Thomas. We have to start thinking about extending his rookie deal next summer. Thomas has to start and Gooden is his backup until we trade him also. That still leaves Nocioni to figure out what to do with.
We need to cut down on the number of average bodies by making a couple of 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 trades where the Bulls get the best player in the deal. How about Hughes and Gooden to the Knicks for Randolph and salary cap crap. We could trade Hinrich to Denver for their Camby trade exception($10million) and use the exception in a three way or later for a player we want/need, or package HInrich and Nocioni for one good player, how about Vince Carter. Then for all you Thabo haters he doesn’t have to start anymore. How does Rose, Carter, Deng, Randolph and Noah. Both not happening because of long term bad contracts, but we have to start moving our spare parts.
Gordon should be kept only as a backup at the right price. Gordon is worth no more than a Nocioni size contract, which he has already turned down twice, so unless we find a way to shrink his massive head and ego he is not here for the long term either.
Obviously it doesn’t take a genius to come up with the only starting lineup that makes sense for the short and long term future of the team, it only takes a stupidgenius.
being undersized doesn't dig holes
being bad does.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions
I like this.
Normally I’d be all for starting BG, but since Redd is BG but taller and BG won’t be able to really bother his shot, starting Thabo actually makes sense.
I am fine
with Rose/Hinrich/Gordon. Rose and Hinrich can start it off (I’d be fine with Rose/Gordon starting it off, but for some reason people don’t like setting an offensive tone) and Gordon can come in for Hinrich at SG. Hinrich can back up the PG position. With how hard Jefferson seems inclined to play Rose in the paint it might be a good idea to have Hinrich as PG there too at times. Especially if he has his shot like last time. Rose is definitely my PG, but he might need to get used to being intentionally banged up inside in the NBA.
I am worried about Tyrus and Gooden together. Gooden just doesn’t have good defense as a center. I know Noah isn’t in top form and seeing the world through fish eye goggles, but Gooden…blah. PF suits him much better defensively but Tyrus is better there anyway… I don’t think it will be a terrible problem against the Bucks, but in the future we are going to continue to give up points in the paint if Noah doesn’t get healthy and de-goggled soon.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
I just want to see more of Ben and Derrick together before forming a semi-permanent opinion
Maybe they’re so great offensively that it more than offsets any defensive concerns, or maybe there’s some frontcourt lineup that will be solid enough defensively to cover for them, or maybe we find out that all the defense concerns are overblown. I don’t especially care if that time together comes from Ben and Derrick starting together right away or just during the game.
I don’t know what to do with Thabo – I’d like him to keep getting some time, but I don’t know where it comes from. To me, he looks better later in games than he does early on – he’s looked horrible in the first half imo. I also worry that as defenses start keying more effectively on Derrick that Thabo playing with him might not be as effective.
Basically, I guess I’m hoping that the coaches sit down after the first month or so and see how different lineup combinations have played together, and then be willing to shift guys around to get the most effective combos out there. It’s almost like we’ve got two sets of lineups with different strengths, so I’m curious to see how it all works out. If the lineup is in flux anyway (meaning for future seasons), then play who is most effective with Derrick regardless of whether that means higher paid guys come off the bench.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
No one wants
to hear my opinion on Thabo so turn away if that is the case. Thabo seems to play better with more minutes than with less, but it is more of a bad into mediocre jump IMO. The only way he looks halfway ok is when he plays most of the game but we have better guards to do that so there really isn’t a point. His best game so far he had Larry Hughes style shooting percentage. Just because he is Thabo shouldn’t mean everyone gives him a pass on that. No one else on the team would get one. Hughes rightfully doesn’t… If it takes that for him to have a good game then I don’t think it is worth it. If he was good in short stretches he’d have a use, but he sucks in short stretches. It is a bit maddening. Thabo is pretty much a nonfactor for me since we have three good guards already in front of him and he never been able pull off short stretches. Hinrich can be defensively good enough and at least he seems to control how many shots he takes so if he is having an off night he at least won’t be jacking them up. Gordon can make his shots and if we run our opponents to the ground with our young legs then perhaps defensively it will balance out. Rose will obviously start. Rose/Hinrich/Gordon bring three different strengths with weakness that could be manageable. I’d go with that.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 26, 2008 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The reason Hughes doesn't get let off the hook
He doesn’t simultaneously get 10 assists 7 rebs and shoots 6/6 on FT’s…
Actually
he does really well at the ft line. In the preseason he’d gotten fouled quite a bit. Thabo will not be getting 10 assists with Rose on the floor. That isn’t his job and he’ll never have the ball that much unless he is ruining our offense.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
I agree. Thabo prob wont get 10 Ass. with ROse on the floor, and neither should he.
Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on the usage of Thabo.
I’m heartbroken….
are you going to quote that final preseason game
as much as the net +/- for Ben Gordon from 07-08?
I didn’t watch the second half of that game, so it must’ve been a heck of a stretch, as my assessment of Thabo this preseason is abysmal.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions
oh you missed out
he absolutely took it to Charlie Bell. Man, I wonder if all his opponents will be that tough?
Stay tuned to find out.
And just to refresh it was – 7,7 net points per 100 poss…
Teach your boy BG to play some D and I may come around to the darkside… ;)
The jumper is still insanely flat
But he flashed his shutdown D in the 2nd half that we all love to bring up (long arms ftw!!), and when Kirk sat for much of the 4th quarter he played the point pretty decent. Had a chance to win the game in regulation, he had some nice pump fake moves to get a open shot.
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 27, 2008 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah I think they’re forcing Thabo at the 2. They should really concentrate on making him that defensive stopper he’s suppose to be by making him a big point guard. I know he turns the ball over a bunch, but he’s got a good first step and can definately get better. he should play the 1 and 3 almost exclusively.
his handle isn't really good enough for the 1
watching him at the end of the bucks game made me cringe. i kept thinking he was going to throw it away.
CJ Bulls
I think your lineup prognostication will turn out to accurate.
I’d start Gordon at the two if he’s ready to play, but that’s not happening. I’d start Noah but only on a short leash, he only looked himself sporadically this preseason…but Gooden at center gives me all sorts of willies. Willies meaning blown defensive assignments and 20-foot jumpers. But if he’s hitting them…
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 26, 2008 6:34 PM CDT reply actions
Who cares if Redd goes for 52?
Gordon will go for 48.
Ridnour will go fo 10.
Rose will go for 20.
Sounds like a plus in the Bulls book.
I see where Reinsdorf spoke with Gordon
Is there anything he can offer him before the end of his contract?
a good cry.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 27, 2008 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions
no Rose. Thabo starts, that's for sure.
Vinny will not start the rook.
by chicago-homesick-blues on Oct 27, 2008 9:56 AM CDT reply actions
If Rose and Thomas aren't in the lineup
he burns a lot of cred with me. And he hasn’t earned any yet, btw.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
and I'm sure he'll be very upset
to know he’s lost cred with me, too.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Should be vs Will be
Should be starters
PG-Rose
SG-Gordon
SF-Deng
PF-Thomas
C-Noah
Will be starters
PG-Rose
SG-Hinrich
SF-Deng
PF-Thomas
C-Gooden
Gordon playing 1 PS game makes it almost impossible to start him. Noah has under performed in the preseason when he really needed to show VDN what he can do. Therefore, Gooden starts at C by default.
I like the should be lineup more for our first set of games. It’s Bucks, Celtics, Grizz, Magic, Cavs, Suns, Cavs, Hawks, Mavs, Pacers and then the circus trip. I think Noah matches up best with all the opponents’ centers except for the Celitcs and Magic.
I want us to come out of the gates running and gunning before we settle into a half court game. That doesn’t happen unless we score. We’ll give up some points to players that will get points against awesome NBA defenses. We need to get our own and try to limit how many threes we give up.
i love the should-be lineup. that would be such a dynamic, dangerous group.
Cashing checks and having sex.
This is the worst lineup we could have
PG: Thabo
SG: Hughes
SF: Nichols
PF: Simmons
C: Gray
Kirk backs up Thabo, Hughes plays 48 minutes, Noce backs up Nichols, Gooden backs up Simmons, Gray plays 48 minutes
If Gray played 48 minutes,
he would probably faint.

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