Kirk Hinrich as a starting two-guard is apparently fait accompli
TYI nails it:
sometimes reading K.C. Johnson is like watching a blind man struggling to find his keys. This piece is a hoot. It begins by explaining that, with Hughes' injury, the "organizational questions" over whether Hinrich or Hughes should start are now moot. Then--after giving us the specifics of Hughes' injury (it's 6 to 8 weeks)--K.C. frets about how poorly Hinrich is playing off the ball/Rose.
What's conspicuously missing from this picture? Only the Bulls' leading scorer over the past three seasons. It's written as if Ben Gordon doesn't exist.
Meanwhile, KC drops a nugget (his specialty) musing how Gordon's injured toe has switched feet...a remark presented not as a mistake, but like it's some kind of 'twist'.
KC, if you think he's faking it, say so. Or make up a source that says so. Or even better, use the "some observers say" gimmick.
(to be fair, Mike McGraw also picked up on the switched toe thing, but he simply reported it)
Annoying KC editorial comments aside, this toe thing has taken an especially weird direction in the past week, where it seemed as if VDN was the one being cautious. Now it's switched back to being Gordon's decision.
And perhaps Gordon figured this to be the case whether he played a couple preseason games or not: it looks like there's no chance he starts next to Rose. I can't blame VDN too much if he wanted to give his first training camp any credibility, but while Gordon may be behind on schemes and conditioning (he claims otherwise) the preseason did establish that Kirk Hinrich is not ready to play off the ball. 5-20 from three this preseason, and a lot of those have been wide-open Rose-fed looks.
So like many games in the past where the Bulls would start off purposely short-handed in order to get 'scoring punch' off the bench, they'll likely start the season with a deficient lineup too. I wonder how many games, and excuses for Hinrich's play, it'll take to get a change.
At least Duhon's out of town.
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You can't blame VDN
to give Gordon the starting job without participating in training camp or preseason would be a slap in the face to all the guys working hard. The same exact thing that pissed off Gordon, Hughes coming in and immediately getting minutes.
I don’t know what Gordon’s deal is with these toes. He is only hurting himself. If he is faking, and I really have no opinion on that matter, than he shouldn’t have wasted his time signing the QO. He should have just held and forced and sign and trade. Because I guarantee the Bulls can screw Gordon a lot harder by not playing him than he can screw them by refusing to play.
Thank god Rose is a Bull… On a related note, I live in Wisconsin and best case scenario Love has gotten take twice by the late, great Malik Rose. 40 bucks games and skiles this year, yea…
you CAN blame VDN somewhat
he’s the one who has kept Ben out of the last 2, possibly 3 games. Ben was saying that he was fine and wanted to get in there and play. It was being reported though that there was still irritation…though I find it funny that we never heard that from Ben himself.
I honestly think Vinny is giving himself an easy out. He can always fall back on the “Ben shouldn’t start because he’s only played 1 game so far” argument. If Ben had played these last couple of games and really took care of business on the court, they would have no choice but to start Ben. Especially since everyone else has sucked anyway. I don’t think Vinny or the staff want to have to make that decision right now though. Why…I wish I knew.
if VDN is sitting him out
than you can blame Vinny. But what exactly is going on there, I have no idea. This whole different toe injury thing though, has me questioning it. Maybe VDN was trying to protect Gordon from criticism. I think that the way KC is kind of spinning it.
i agree with you there
the whole VDN/Ben/injured toe thing is very strange. We’ve heard conflicting stories from Vinny, Ben, the media, the Bulls, just about everyone involved.
where did I say they shouldn't play their best players
If a coach doesn’t value his own practices, what the hell does he value?
I wasn't acusing you of anything
That was more a response to something Norm said.
I honestly think Vinny is giving himself an easy out. He can always fall back on the "Ben shouldn’t start because he’s only played 1 game so far" argument. If Ben had played these last couple of games and really took care of business on the court, they would have no choice but to start Ben.
Can you really?
Ben Gordon is choosing when he wants to play and when he doesn’t. Not the coaching staff and not the medical staff. Vinny is making a statement and this is what he needs to do if he wants to stick around.
yeah but at the same time, you can’t have BG moping around and dying to get out of Chicago
If you’re going to bench anyone to make a statement, Make it LH. As dark as this sounds, he’s been mopin around since his Brother died, and has never really recovered.
LH isn't an issue now
Ben Gordon isn’t a moper in my opinion. He’s sly and selfish in his own way but not a moper.
Well, VDN's the one who chose that BG wouldn't play on Tue and Wed
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
OK, so how does that support your claim that BG is deciding when he does or doesn't play?
Plus, when a player’s injured, shouldn’t he have input into that?
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
At first BG was deciding when to play and when not to play
Then VDN took it out of his hands by telling him to sit.
As for a player having input….. we’ll that’s complicated. Let’s say I have an injured toe (which I do) because my toe nail fell off while playing basketball and volleyball. But I can still play and I go through what ever I have to so I can play. Now me knowing that I can play without a toe nail does it give me the right to choose when to sit and when not to?
I don’t give these players any slack when you know that these are baby injuries. I also have dystonia and have to play Basketball with one of my foots rolled up in a ball while I play but I still play and I don’t make any money doing it.
Excuses, excuses, man up and play.
You're right, you're not getting paid for playing w/ an injury
Any athlete is threatening their livelihood when they do play w/ an injury. “Man up and play”! What an asinine perspective to take. Unless you know the extent of the injury and have the medical knowledge to assess the likely level of pain and potential ramifications of playing through it, it’s hard to criticize a player for opting to sit.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
I have that right
Since I play with more pain than you can imagine. But I play.
It’s his toe we’re talking about.
you can't ask a guy
who earns his paycheck to play to put his career in jeopardy. even though i think it’s ridiculous that he’s been out because of his toe this long, the guy is on a one year contract and if he hurts himself further, he won’t get another one. guys coming back too soon end up having to face more surgery and more time out (though for those lucky few, ie agent zero, it doesn’t matter if you’ve had 3 knee surgeries in a year… :P)
you play for fun, so playing through pain is your choice. if you injure yourself more, well, i hope your health insurance is good. but it’s not going to end your career, most likely.
um, you're joking.
right?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 24, 2008 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions
It's preseason folks
I’m sure Gordon is being advised to play as little as possible as he’s got to have injury concerns especially given that these games mean absolutely nothing to Gordon the wants to be a future player for big money in the league….they mean much more for Vinny and the Bulls org than BG…so he sits.
Well, Hughes sucks so...
it would piss anyone off he he started in front of them.
I do know that none of the guards (besides Rose) who are supposedly working hard and stuff are looking even half way good out there. Working hard only gets you so far. If you don’t have what it takes to preform for whatever reason you still should not start. A certain center on our team works really hard and won’t be anything more than a backup center if sanity prevails. If Gordon plays and blows everyone out of the water I don’t really care if he missed a lot of preseason. You have to work with talented players, not hard workers who can’t get it done. Learning curves are different and if Gordon can mesh with Rose then he is in as far as I am concerned.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
but you can't have guys not practicing and coming in and getting big minutes
Gordon isn’t Kobe Bryant or A.I. I get that you have to play the most talented guys, but if the most talented guys are refusing to practice, and I don’t know if Gordon is, than a rookie coach can’t let that happen. People would start walking all over VDN. There has to be a modicum of discipline.
If Gordon doesn’t play the preseason, he should start on the bench. If 5 or 10 games he proves effective, than he should start. But lets not kid ourselves. Gordon has played pretty poorly to start almost every season. If any players needs the rep to get going, its Gordon.
I guess I just disagree.
I am tired of the Chicago philosophy of hard workers with little talent or results working their way into positions. Give Gray a starting job then. Ironically, Gordon has always been called a good worker in practice and out. I bet he has been working more this summer than most. If another guard was showing himself to be the obvious answer then sure. They have not so the job is still wide open. If Gordon shows up in his PJs and blows them all out of the water go with Gordon. He hasn’t been sitting around eating Cheetos all summer. He is consistently a hard worker regardless of the last few weeks and he says he gets new offense just fine and wants to play. If it shows up on the court and he is the best he should get the job. If he isn’t the best then the job goes to someone else. To me it isn’t up to who runs the most wind sprints. If they can’t get it done then I don’t care. They stopped giving awards out for “hard worker” in jr high.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
gray is working, gooden is working
tyrus is working, noah is working, hinrich is working, hughes is working, gordon is sitting down and watching. I don’t understand why you can’t see that would kill the locker room chemistry. If Gordon is sitting out on his own accord, I don’t understand how you can play him. If he is seriously injured, I will give him a pass. But at some point you have to practice. He can’t just show up the days of the game.
I would agree with this logic...
if we didn’t suck so bad right now.
yes, those guys are all working….but none of them look any better for it.
first priority should be to win, and if the guys get their feelings hurt because someone can put in less work to get better results, too bad.
and this is coming from an admitted Hinrich fan.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 23, 2008 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Vinny seems to agree based on his comments about Hughes
“I feel bad for Larry. He has worked really hard and hasn’t missed any practices. I feel bad for the team. He has played well. He has done everything we’ve asked of him. Hopefully, it’s not as severe as it looked.”
While this wouldn’t apply to Ben directly, VDN clearly values guys who come in and work hard. I don’t see that as a bad quality to have. While Hughes is a bad player at this point, VDN needs to set standards or else you can lose the team later down the line (see Boylan, Jim).
Ben himself said he
played no basketball this summer. His stamina might not be where it should be yet. I guess we have to let Vinny do his job and let him decide when he sees BG as being ready to play. We aren’t in practice so we have no idea how he does there.
He played no games.
I thought we had this clear back when that quote came out. He didn’t play games like Deng and Noc and some others. He has been working out individually. It is pretty well documented he has a fully scheduled day that involves basketball.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
The interview I saw
just after he signed QO and went to camp he said he hadn’t touched a basketball all summer and was out of shape. Its in the fan shots some place. That was from BG himself.
I had concerns and mentioned them with the video appeared. This recent bullshit only confirms what I thought previously.
"If you're not going to compete, then I'll dominate you." MJ
I'm still looking for the Ben quote
but here is a quote from VDN:
“He’s obviously a big part of the team. He has worked out in the facility all summer. Probably his wind isn’t great but he has been playing a lot so it won’t take him long. He’s in good condition.”
by NormVanBeer on Oct 24, 2008 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions
You are correct. BG did
say he didn’t touch a basketball all summer long. He was not going to without a contract for fear of an injury.
I think you're full of it.
He was at least shooooooting.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 24, 2008 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions
I really don't care
what you think of me. I don’t lie and HE did say he hadn’t touched a basketball all summer.
I remembered it like you did
he clearly worked on basketball, just didn’t scrimmage.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 24, 2008 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions
He is still
the best player on a bad team. That doesn’t make him a superstar for him to sit out when he want’s to.
Gordon scores 19-20 points a game. Super stars score 28 and above. Gordon would be a bench player on any good team.
It’s one thing to be a “hard worker” and a player who works hard for the team.
Gordon can labeled a hard worker because he keeps quiet and practices hard. But how has he worked hard to make the team better?
according to the JTheory superstar index
Only Kobe and LeBron were superstars last year!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 24, 2008 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Even if Kirk has a better camp than Gordon simply by participating
was it wise to have a ‘competition’ where Hinrich and Gordon started on equal footing?
Hinrich’s the one moving positions, and also the one who had a worse season last year. So it should’ve been a case where Hinrich had to earn the job, not win by default. If there’s a default winner it’s Gordon (and if it was supposed to be Thabo he played so bad he can’t win it).
That way VDN could’ve said while he would’ve liked for Gordon to do more in camp, since Hinrich didn’t ‘win’ the job Gordon still starts.
But yet again, it seems like Kirk always gets a special consideration, for everything.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 24, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Except
That now that we have a PG of the future, we are still playing Kirk.
Actually that’s not quite fair, Kirk in my opinion is a solid starter in this league (Rex is not) it’s just that we lucked out with the top pick of the draft and got a prospect top 3 PG…
It would be a slap in the face to us if he don't start when he can!
Gordon should start, regardless of how hard everyone else has been playing…
First of all, they’re Supposed to play hard! And secondly, Ben has earnred the starting spot by common sense alone. He is our best scorer! He was our best scorer without DRose, and things should become even easier with Rose out there with him.
Eventually he will be come our starter by default
VDN is just laying down his commandmits. Unless Seflosha steps it up……
I suffered through some
sports talk tonight on CSN where they were talking like Hughes being out is some big hit to us and we will miss his “instant offense” and his ability to “get us back into games”. As if Hughes was ever any of those things. I am seriously doubting they are watching anything but the highlights on YouTube. Where do they come up with this crap? They only mentioned Gordon in snide side comments. I don’t know what is going on with Gordon’s story and VDN saying two things at once, but the columnists need to just come out and say something one way or another. I am getting tired of the snide jabs and the nudge-nudges. The guards besides Rose are playing poorly. The columnists are phoning it in.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
I watched both
and yeah, different guys. They should just not let idiots talk. I know I shouldn’t watch, but I was kind of looking forward to seeing a Hughes roast.
I am pretty positive about Rose/Gordon/Hinrich. You have a little bit of everything with those three and I see no reason why we won’t be well off for a year even if nothing changes. If you want to lower your shooting percentage and get the ball out of Rose’s hands then talk up Hughes. That is all he does. Why anyone is morning his absence I just can’t fathom. Hughes was never the answer or even a good stop gap.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
8 games
The amount of time for the Bulls to think of the great idea of playing Sefolosha for 20+ a night. Hinrich and Gordon coming off the bench? TALK ABOUT SPARK PLUGS!!!!
They will be needing
some serious voltage from the bench. Our bench will be outscoring the opposing teams bench every night. And our starters.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Hahaha
You weren’t this funny when I used to post here. Funny girl
by NittanyCub on Oct 23, 2008 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Points for remembering I'm a girl!
You’ve not been around as much this summer. Perhaps you’ve been avoiding the summer insanity here? I should have.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
The "Just a girl from the Rockford area" would have sealed it if I didn't know.
I was fortunately too busy having the Cubs instill joy, hope, and faith this summer. Man, I wonder how they did this postseason?
I can't stand
KC’s little opinionated articles. Like Matt said, why does the information around Gordon’s injury have to be some new or strange “twist”?? Why couldn’t it have been a mistake that was made by the media…or the TEAM even?
Maybe Ben originally said that it was the left toe, but the media just muffed up and reported it as the right. As Sports2 said elsewhere, maybe whomever filled out the injury report from the Bulls wrote down the wrong thing.
Why does it have to be reported like Ben is faking it and/or switching things around?
KC is a douche
Why couldn't Ben
just strain a back muscle for two weeks like everyone else if he wanted to lie? Or he could start with the toe and then strain a back muscles lacing his shoes. There are much better ways to lie if that was what he was out to do.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Because
just maybe his toe is hurt but it’s not as bad as he’s making out to be? How many players do you see sit out this long for a toe injury?
Vinny is keeping Ben out
Ben’s wanting to test it. Del Negro has kept him out of the games. Vinny is saying he wants it to get as close to 100% prior to the start of the regular season.
by NBA Observer on Oct 24, 2008 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions
At least VDN is consistent.
If a player is not practicing due to injury, they are not playing.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
that's pretty absurd
‘’I was going to try it out the other night, but Coach told me to sit out,’’ Gordon said.
“It feels better,” Gordon said.
If the player says that he is ready to go, then put him in.
by NormVanBeer on Oct 24, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Why?
If the player cannot or will not practice, then why put him into a game. Or conversely, if a player is healthy enough to play, why isn’t he practicing?
I have a feeling if these games mattered, at all, then we would see Gordon playing, because Vinny is going to try to win games, and because Gordon’s injury is not so severe that he cannot play.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
by Dionysus2.0 on Oct 24, 2008 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
practicing
VDN:
“He’s working trying to get his wind, but there’s nothing like playing in games.”
You make it sound like he’s not doing anything at all…just sitting around staring at the players and being a slouch. That quote from VDN makes it sound like he’s participating somewhat.
This quote in the DH adds to the confusion though:
Meanwhile, Ben Gordon missed another practice with a sore left big toe..
Maybe he’s not going full practice, but IS doing something.
by NormVanBeer on Oct 24, 2008 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
I'd prefer to see
some “Gordon is practicing” blurbs.
I really just dislike all this non-participation in the preseason because it’s then used to sandbag the player in the regular season.
by NBA Observer on Oct 24, 2008 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
i agree with you
I said the same thing above…Vinny is only going to fall back on the “Ben hasn’t played enough” excuse.
Last week there did seem to be a day or so where it was reported that he practiced (can’t find it now).
Hopefully he plays tonight.
by NormVanBeer on Oct 24, 2008 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Practice? Where talking about practice..
so says AI: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frsId3goYYE
"It is not the same to talk of bulls as to be in the bullring." ~Spanish Proverb"
by VivaLosToros on Oct 24, 2008 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
We're (not where... sheesh)
sorry, braindead this Friday. Need barley-pop to replenish.
"It is not the same to talk of bulls as to be in the bullring." ~Spanish Proverb"
by VivaLosToros on Oct 24, 2008 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
He could avoid unwanted questions like these
just by faking an injury harder to make fun of than a toe problem. That’s my point. People laugh at a toe injury. A back injury on the other hand…if he means to be a problem for the team a back injury would be harder to question in the media. Just like in your own job. You’d fake a common illness. Not one that would lead to a lot of questions.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
One issue with what you're saying:
a back injury, or something just as serious, would deflate his value long term. His health would become a question with the folks he’s trying to get to invest in him. And at that point, it surely wouldn’t reflect well if he told them “Hey, don’t worry – I was faking it.”
Now, I don’t thing Ben’s faking. A big toe injury can be excruciating – people get wheeled into the ER all the time with gout. It’s excruciating, and totally debilitating. There are a whole lotta nerves down there, and for an athlete, the big toe is essential. Again: big toe amputees have to deal with a ton of PT before they can walk again, let alone run, jump, and cut. (And we all know Ben’s sense of equilibrium wasn’t his strongest suit.)
The point is that we don’t know what he’s feeling; and the fact that it’s a toe injury isn’t in the least informative. It could range from minor to major.
But we do know this: Gordon benefits enormously by playing well, and often, this year. We also know he’s got a track record as a hard worker and team player.
From a medical and financial point of view, there’s just no reason to doubt him.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
I don't know...
if you want to see an example of what a toe injury can do look how well Tomlinson is playing for the Chargers. I know it is a cross-sports example, but you can clearly see that it has effected his lateral mobility this year.
"Worker bees can leave.
Even drones can fly away.
The Queen is their slave."
If he has ligament damage
then that would explain everything. The media insists it is a “banged” toe though. They have no reason to do Gordon favors though.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
If banged = inflamed
that’s excruciating. And more to the point, the inflammation cascade is perpetuated by stress.
If that’s what he’s got – and "banged is K.C.‘s snarky way of minimizing what he doesn’t understand – then playing on it would be the worst thing Ben could do. Hopefully that’s VDN’s/Tedesci’s reasoning for not playing him last game.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Congrats to everyone on BAB
for expanding on Ben’s injury for him. He, and no one from the Bulls or local papers has used terms like “ligament damage,” “inflamed,” or “excruciating.” They have used “jammed toe,” stubbed toe," and “irritation.” This is only blowing up because it’s the preseason. As long as Ben is able to play Tuesday, none of this should realy matter. He only cost himself a potential starting spot.
Leave me out of your puerile snarkfest;
I suggested that a toe injury can be serious. I also used the word “if.” Like an injured toe on an athlete, “if” can have a big effect on a statement.
The inplications of K.C.‘s tone is that hey, it’s a toe, no big deal, he’s obviously faking it. That’s simply incorrect.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Well as KC and I (respectively)
have just pointed out what others have mentioned. I’ve heard this in a few places now, so to lump it all on him (not you necessarily, but all on BAB) is unfair. Most of it is talk radio and CTL.
I will agree KC really does need to stop presenting things as half-opinion/half-reporting in the same story. He needs to pick a line. I know the budgets at the papers are incredibly shrunken, but at least give him a column to do separate from the beat reporting.
Why can't KC sprain his wrist typing this nonsense
I’d rather read Mariotti for hours on end than read KC’s beat reports.
by NBA Observer on Oct 24, 2008 8:24 AM CDT up reply actions
I find it interesting
that we have so many guards and yet we don’t know how to be flexible.
I know its been mentioned before, but start Rose/Gordon and bring Hinrich off the bench when necessary.
maybe then we could focus on our frontcourt.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 23, 2008 9:06 PM CDT reply actions
I don't see why
getting the offense locked in with Rose/Gordon at the start of the game is such a bad thing. The other argument is getting the defense locked in with Rose/Hinrich. But that could get you in a 15 pt hole in the first quarter. I would be up for seeing what setting an offensive tone does for us. If that doesn’t work we can always go back to the defensive tone with the offensive spark off the bench. I am tired of that, but it isn’t like trying the offense first is going to kill us worse than that does.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
I don't see why, either, that we have to go through this again this year!
This reminds me of the bs being spewed out during the coaching “search” in the spring. No one could figure out what the hey was going on, because the coaching search was about as dysfunctional as could be.
Paxson has claimed that the one thing he learned about last year was….ya know, I can’t remember WHAT he said he learned from last year’s dysfunctional season which started in the preseason and never stopped. Sad to say, apparently this owner/GM combo just can’t get out of their own way. The last thing this team with budding star Rose needed, was to have VDN dragged into some dysfunctional dance with Gordo…as he struggles to get out of the gate as new coach.
I’ve been hoping to see some signs of sanity, but instead it just keeps unraveling. I guess one should face up to reality, that the Dorfer/Pax arrangement is crippled, and lower expectations. Which we are loathe to do…all the years of teasing rebuilding…and it turns out it’s the brainrust which is putting a ceiling on the team’s potential of returning to contention.
Guys
Calm down. It’s preseason. In Preseason you try various lineups. I think things’ll be much tighter 5-10 games into the regular season….we have a new coaching staff, 1 new big time player, and even some trades on the horizon.
This is the best time to tinker before it counts….
I believe that the phrase is fait accompli
</obnoxious spelling lesson>
by fundamentallysound on Oct 23, 2008 10:49 PM CDT reply actions
No - that's what I was going to write!
I’m like … “fate” accompli? I almost figured it was intentional, as if Matt was going for some kind of double entendre (albeit one that I didn’t understand).
"You ain’t as hot as I is / all of these false prophets is not messiahs /
You don’t know how high the sky is / the square mileage of earth or what pi is." - Nas
Yeah, it's definitely "fait accompli"
but I also took it as maybe Matt (who we all know is THAT brilliant) pulling a brilliant play on word (or double entendre like you suggested) using “fate” on purpose :-)
The Game chose him !
damnit.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 24, 2008 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions
I changed it :-p
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 24, 2008 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions
I made a few arguments
About how kirk gave the team good offense and good defense (as opposed to thabos great defense and poor offense, and gordons great offense and poor defense) however i am gonna join in and say….if kirks offense is this…then sit him on the bench. I (if you already didnt know) am a huge kirk fan, but what i have seen in the last couple preseason games make me frown. Hinrich i expected to be able to hit OPEN JUMPERS!!!! But he has failed too many times, maybe its preseason and he isnt trying, maybe hes not comfortable yet, or maybe he just sucks at shooting. I dont want to bank on the later, because i have seen many-a-games of kirk shooting lights out, but is he so streaky of a shooter that his good days are few and far apart?
I still dont think kirk hinrich should traded (at least not to the timber-wolves for crap!!) unless a good offer is in the works, a better sg than thabo or gordon, a better post presence than gooden, any other upgrade that can help the team get back to "respectability, and thus i offer this agreement to an idea, USE HINRICH OFF THE BENCH!!
Have him be the 6th man, benching him should wake him up, (if he doesnt then he really should get traded) puts a better player on the floor with rose (in terms of offense at least) and more importantly, should cause rose’s name to be called last in the lineups (hey hinrichs my boy, but c’mon, rose is definitely the face of the team. Hardworking, gritty, almost innocent personality, and hes actually bound to be a superstar rather than a fans top 5 player) He can then relieve either rose or gordon, and i think if his offense comes together that role might be better suited for hinrich ( think manu ginobli but nowhere near as good).
Last let me say this, hinrich is a starting pg, and its been pretty apparent in the preseason. His pg skills have developed quite a bit, even though he lacks the quickness, or natural playmaking instincts that great pgs have, hinrich is a real smart ball handler and its apparent in his passes (minus the one he did in minny, that was definitely an outlier).
Rose is damned good, and its a shame for him to set up guys who cant hit, hinrich maybe be my all-time favorite player, but i must concede that rose has to be my favorite player on the bulls, and long after kirks gone i wll continue to watch rose destroy defenses with his ability.
Hinrich is a starter, teams like the heat, the bobcats, the lakers, the cavs, the bucks, and basically any team that doesnt have cp3, nash, d-williams, jason kidd and a couple others would love to have kirk hinrich, and he would do well with them too (wjb pointed this concept out) however right now kirk is still on my favorite team in the world, and i really hope he does bounce back and show that he can play alongside rose, but until that happens, move kirk to the bench, and explore trade options…this is coming from biggest hinrich fan numba 4
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
Hinrich should get good minutes
so we can showcase him and use him in a trade near the trade deadline to fill a need (Good/Big SG and a scoring bigman). By the trade deadline this team will belong to Rose period. Clogging the backcourt will only hinder his development. It is now the Rose era in Chicago and we need to surround him with real talent (i.e not Hinrich).
Homecoming
I worry
that playing Hinrich off the ball only hurts his value.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 24, 2008 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Same here
I really worry that his already low value will plummet after he puts up shitty stats, which he know doubt will.
He’ll look like a nice MLE guy making $3-5M more than that for the rest of his contract…..and we don’t want that.
That is why if we are going to make him a 2 guard, Pax needs to work out a deal by mid Dec and pull the trigger.
Wow
piccolomair you just described Hinrich and aside from position played, is seems like you were talking about Hughes…
..but what i have seen in the last couple preseason games make me frown. Hughes i expected to be able to hit OPEN JUMPERS!!!! But he has failed too many times, maybe its preseason and he isnt trying, maybe hes not comfortable yet, or maybe he just sucks at shooting. I dont want to bank on the later, because i have seen many-a-games of Larry shooting lights out, but is he so streaky of a shooter that his good days are few and far apart?
Larry's never been a good jumpshooter
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 24, 2008 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
uhhh
how dare you twist my words for hinrich and compare him to larry hughes, thats vile even for the greatest of hinrich haters!!! To compare a basketball player with hughes, next you might as well compare his pg abilities to marbury….
Hughes is over aggressive all the time, and he definetly has good games few and far between….hinrich up until last year has been the poster boy of consistency, actually wasnt there a post that showed aside from a real bad november he was s till pretty consistent?
I was asking more rhetorical questions if this is what hinrich was heading for, days of streaky shooting cuz it sure looks like it. And hinrich is still by far a better player than hughes despite what athleticism hughes may have over hinrich.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
by piccolomair on Oct 24, 2008 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree
at the point he’s actually been pretty good.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 24, 2008 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
My reasoning for why Kirk's value will go up:
he’s going to be judged by his performance at point, not shooting guard, because that would be his position for any team looking to acquire him. I’m assuming NBA GMs are sophisticated enough not to just look at his NBA.com stat page.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
you know what, I agree
this is why I always get angry at the idea of showcasing :)
But if Kirk’s shooting terribly because he’s not comfortable catch/shooting…I’m sure other teams would use that as leverage in any trade.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 24, 2008 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions
You're right - they'd definitely use it in negotiations,
but I don’t think to much effect. I’ve had a chance to watch some other teams (Charlotte, Sacramento, Golden State, the Bucks) play this preseason and my God – their point guards are awful. Just terrible. (D.J. Augustine…yikes.) It’s reinforced both just how ridiculous Rose’ gifts are, and the fact that Hinrich would actually be an upgrade for many teams.
There are two issues that cloud our judgement of Kirk. The first is the annoyance factor: he moped and sucked (mucked?) last season, which was especially irritating in light of the money he was making. The second is that you can’t help but compare him to Rose.
Unfair? Yes. Guilty fun? Indubitably.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Bobcats
If Larry Brown has his way (and he likely does, like M.Jeff is doing anything to stop it?) maybe Hinrich would be on the radar for them.
There’s not much to get back though. Would you do Nazr/May (or Nazr/Felton to get a backup PG)? Maybe give Larry Brown two grind-y players?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 24, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions
i like the Nazr/Felton idea
I don’t see MJ wanting Noc or his contract…but then again, Noc seems to be one of those players that Larry Brown would love to have.
That would give Felton a chance to get from up under Brown’s doghouse…I don’t see a problem for Kirk there, because he’s a coach’s son right? ;-)
by NormVanBeer on Oct 24, 2008 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions
I would definately
try the Nazr/May for Hinrich deal….but wouldn’t want to add any more. It’s just an excuse really get free up some future cap room. Though if May lost say 75 lbs and didn’t get hurt, he’d be a real steal….(grins: not happening). May has nice talent for an undersized player, very nice talent, but the injury issues and his incredible wait gain (judging from last yr—haven’t seen him this year).
I wouldn’t be very excited about this trade, but would do it just to get another big C (below avg, but not a terrible 25 MPG guy)…and maybe if May played he could be good….
Not my favorite trade though….
I wouldn't touch Nazr
2010 contract, and not very good. Why go there?
Felton might be interesting though.
We're
Not going to be playing the 2010 game either way.
I said it’s not my fave, but I want less guard controversy and more focus on Rose development, and getting rid of a solid guard who should start at PG to lighten the logjam is nice in my opinion.
Course I do like my Hinrich Mike Miller swap more and plenty others first.
he'll make less in 2010
than the cap’n
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 24, 2008 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Say no on Felton
He needs to play PG to be productive. He’s not a shooter at all. He needs to distribute to be effective and he needs a lot of minutes to get there.
I’d be more open to acquiring Felton if he weren’t locked in to a #5 pick rookie scale contract.
If a third team enters where we play a role in landing Felton with a club that needs a 35mpg PG that passes, then I’m in on the trade.
by NBA Observer on Oct 24, 2008 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd like to see about May's health, first,
but if he is healthy he’s a solid option behind Tyrus. In a way, he’d be Michael Sweetney the greater (in terms of ability, not girth).
I’m thinking bigger, though. I could see Larry brown saying ah, screw it – these overpriced guys blow, and trading superior talent (Jason Richardson + crap) for superior grit (Hinrich, Noc, and a #1). Brown has a history of blowing up teams; I don’t see a reason why it coulnd’t happen again.
Richardson isn’t a perfect player, but he could be a good fit with Rose. Reason being he’s a decent 3 point shooter (41%), he’s big and athletic, and most of all, he’s got a great post-up game.
I don’t like the big man post-up options out there – why not get a guard?
The thing that worries me: Richardson would have to be absolutely clear that this is Rose’s team, and he’s second fiddle.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
sean may and j rich
you i.d.‘ed the only two from cha that are interesting to me. (they’d never trade okefur) but may is such a long shot at this point, and i’ve considered jrich a disappointment overall. just think he should be a all-star given his talent, and he’s nowhere near. seems like too much of the bad from kobe-of-years-past, without much of the good. and with may, even if he can avoid more injury, have they taken a toll to where he’s no longer capable of being a millsap/landry with some go to post game talent?
another thing to remember, and it has to do with 2010: rose will be 21 and entering his 3rd year, when it’ll really start happening for him. so even if the bulls aren’t f.a. players, they should make trades with the future in mind. basically, i believe they should avoid acquiring players much more than 5-6 years older than him. they’d likely only be able to afford one guy like that anyway, a guy at his career peak and near max salary. so they’d better be sure he’s really the right guy.
I agree about the post up issue, always have. unless you’re considered a timmy duncan by the refs, it’s the easiest thing for the defense to take away in crunch time (except bg going 1 on 5, maybe!). guards can post up too, ya know.
Kirk's shooting terribly because he can't shoo,
not because he’s not comfortable catch/shooting. He is a career 41% shooter. Off-the-ball, on-the-ball, 41% qualifies as terrible.
by messwiththebull on Oct 25, 2008 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions
this year is done
this year is done. No matter what the option, all we have is crap at SG. Worse yet, it is un-tradeable crap, that no one wants unless they can unload even more untradeable crap on you.
suck it up, develop Rose this year, and see what can be done in the offseason
don’t keep screwing up future years trying to save a sinking ship this year
I want to eventually see a winner again and I don’t want to see it get postponed by bad decisions this year.
see ya then!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 24, 2008 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions
i will miss your constant negativity
see you next season…
I'm losing faith in VDN already
Check this out.
Del Negro painted a more pessimistic picture.
“He had a lot of pain and definitely hurt himself pretty bad,” Del Negro said. “I feel bad for Larry. He has worked really hard and hasn’t missed any practices. I feel bad for the team. He has played well. He has done everything we’ve asked of him. Hopefully, it’s not as severe as it looked.”
Obviously it’s easy to figure out Vinny Del Negro. Showing up is half the battle. But there is no way VDN can see what Hughes has done in the preseason and come away thinking “he has played well.”
Larry is turning it over. Larry is forcing shots. Larry is shooting under 35% from the field. Larry is falling asleep on defense. Larry is being the same exact Larry he’s always been unless he’s playing in an open contract year.
At the end of the season banquet he will get the "worked hard" trophy.
He will still suck.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
To be fair,
VDN doesn’t strike me as a person who would A. kick someone when they’re down and B. rip into them through the media. So far, the one universal positive we’ve heard about him is that he’s a great communicator, so I think if he had a problem he would bring it up face to face.
"Worker bees can leave.
Even drones can fly away.
The Queen is their slave."
Agreed.
Too many on BaB read a quote made by a coach or a GM in the newpaper – two people whose best interests is to spew the company line and stir up as little controversy as possible – and come jump to conclusions. What the hell else was VDN supposed to say about Hughes, you overreacting fans? “I’m glad Larry hurt himself because I felt like I was forced to play him.” What’s the matter with some of you?
by messwiththebull on Oct 24, 2008 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions
i was going to make this point too
he’s not going to rip the guy. especially since it’s not like he was playing that poorly… compared to what he normally does haha. and he probably has been working hard in practice.
Exactly
These are quotes coming from the coach and GM to the freaking media, not some tape recorded confidential conversation that’s being leaked. What would you say to the media in a simliar position? Would you be an idiot or play the game?
by messwiththebull on Oct 24, 2008 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions
plus
hey, i can always interpret it as “He has played well [in one game].” :D since he was having a decent game when he went out.
who knows… but it’s common sense that vinny’s going to express “regret” in having one of his players get injured. you don’t really wish that on someone.
It wouldn't be hard to say
that his shooting percentage has struggled in the preseason but he went out on a good game. Shame, that. (cough).
I have heard ZERO people in the media or the org say anything about the absolute horrific shooting. Yet they all talk like he is contending for the starting spot. He isn’t contending at all. He is the worst of the worst.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
i agree he sucks
but his % isn’t THAT bad compared to his normal levels, so maybe they are trying to ignore it… i don’t know i’m just trying to figure out their rationale. i just figure vinny’s not going to slam him.
and plus, as much as he sucks, it’s not like hinrich or thabo has been very good, particularly with respect to their shooting. and ben hasn’t played (though as much of a lukewarm fan i am of gordon, i’m offended that he’s not even in the starter’s discussion since it’s absolutely ridiculous).
I'll take D'Antoni's comments about Eddy Curry
“I need to see more from him.”
Here are some acceptable mediaspeak answers VDN could provide.
“Larry is working hard. I want to see better shot selection.”
“Larry is doing everything we ask in practice. In games we’d like him to shoot when he has the best chance of making the shot.”
“Larry is performing well in practice. He’s under performing in games. The differences are noticeable. We’re trying to get Larry to take the shots he can make.”
“Larry is isn’t one with his shot. I’ve redecorated his locker with sage and Dr. Seuss literature.”
by NBA Observer on Oct 24, 2008 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions
But D'Antoni
Is saying this to cover up for the fact that Isiah’s “Franchise” player Curry is riding the pine. In Chicago, everyone knows (99.9% of the fans know) that Hughes just isn’t that good…..nobody here has said, he’s the future of our team, or that he’s the future of this franchise and will be the best C in the East in 2-3 years, and had the media buy into that hype when Curry put up similar to his Bulls numbers with a few more minutes, but higher scoring (despite higher TO%’s) etc.
Many there were saying too that Curry will be back and that the mess of the team hurt him.
It would be the same way if say the Bulls had said last year, which they should have done, Ben Wallace is not going to see any action….
Thankfully we did something better by pulling off a swindle…
But Hughes and Curry ain’t a fair comparision in media talk, especially when the city is in love with the new regime in NY there as the saviors of that awfully messy franchise….
The Bulls on paper are still a well put together talent wise team that is very young and mostly needs team chemistry, we aren’t a mess like teh Knicks that need to boot out some players fast.
You don't have to rip the guy
to tell the truth.
Saying Hughes is “playing well” is a borderline lie. He’s not playing well at all. He’s not even meeting his own career numbers.
VDN can stop at “Larry is working hard and doing everything we ask of him.” He extends it time and time again to forward the great myth that Larry Hughes is “playing well”.
by NBA Observer on Oct 24, 2008 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
I totally understand
him using constructive criticism to try to get the best out of the player. But, given what we’ve learned about Larry so far (most notably that he thinks he’s a starter), he strikes me as someone who is likely to take offense to the smallest critique. At some point, VDN will have to suck it up and make a move that is going to piss someone off, but I’m going to withhold judgement on VDN until later in the season.
"Worker bees can leave.
Even drones can fly away.
The Queen is their slave."
VDN
Has to say things like this “he played well”. Skiles used to say it about “the Body”….
Hughes has played hard, but outside of what I didn’t see against Minnesota he has played like crap.
But what good would it do the team if VDN said: Larry played like absolute shit, he’s terrible, and I’ll never play him again…..all it would do would start a Skiles part 2 ripple effect for a team that needs to feel some sort of cohesiveness and play together.
And for anyone who keeps clamoring for BG to start
on one condition only: BG guards the 2s, Derrick guards the PGs. No more accomodating for BG by having a more capable undersized guard defend the opposition’s 2. Put up or shut up time. BG plays effective D? Then let’s see it. His offense compensates for his defense? Let’s see it. No more babying this guy on D. Let Derrick guard the 1s, make BG guard the 2s and then finally everyone on both sides of ths argument will have enough observable evidence to end this debate.
by messwiththebull on Oct 24, 2008 9:00 AM CDT reply actions
How about any of our guards besides Rose
play effective offense? Why is sucking at offense so acceptable? Especially on an offensively challenged team?
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Plus
How many of our options at the 2 have played effective defense this preseason. Unless getting blown by is effective defense, I just haven’t really seen it.
RIGHT ON
I don’t get that either….we’ve been so trained by the Bears’s historically awful sans Payton offense in Chicago that offense sucks….folks forget while MJ was the league’s best defender, he also was the best offensive player….
I’m so sick of all the well the defense wasn’t good so while we put guys in that held their opponent to 15 pts when he normally scores 20, our guys scored 12 pts when they normally score 12.
Ben gordon and derrick rose
Kind of remind me of the denver nuggets backcourt…but alot worse. D-rose is gonna be great, but for now id give a.i. the upper hand on him, and jr smith with all his problems can be just as proficient in scoring as be n gordon. And then they have Melo. Even still they are heavily crticized for thier lack of defense, even though they can manage fairly well with just offense alone. I dont think the bulls with a backcourt with rose and bg would really be that much better than a rose hinrich backcourt, but i guess offensively it just wouldnt look that disgusting. As for the jordan comparison, like you said, jordan excelled on both ends of the court, as did pippen, rose still has alot to learn defensively, and ben gordon may never be a great defender…but your right, we need both..right now however, we dont have both.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
by piccolomair on Oct 24, 2008 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Except
Gordon’s a better defender believe it or not than JR Smith…a.nd for my money a better offensive player to boot. Smith’s good, but imagine how good Gordon would be on offense with A.I. and Melo at the same time. Folks couldn’t guard him.
Smith is tall, and athletic, but doesn’t haev the desire to even focus on defense.
Gordon is small, athletic and has at least a desire and some skills to play avg to slightly below avg D. He’s not an awful defender, it’s just that he’s damn small, and I know that he’s not going to grow, but at the same time, I don’t think Smith will ever have the focus to play D. ANd Smith’s more of a locker room issue guy either way.
Really?
Because when you compare the numbers last season, JR Smith was a better shooter and scorer than Ben Gordon. He just did not get the minutes. Defensively, I will call it a wash. Though, Ben Gordon has been a model citizen and JR Smith has been a headcase.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
by Dionysus2.0 on Oct 24, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Again
Look at who he was playing with:
2 BIG TIME scorers….JR Smith definately takes a back seat when you’ve got A.I. and Melo to defend.
Who did Gordon have? The occasional Noc heats up game?
Deng’s a consistent, but not prolific scorer….
Hinrich?
Oh yeah, maybe Ben Wallace….
Have
Gordon who is constantly double and triple teamed and still puts up solid stats with Melo and A.I. and their offense would be impossible to defend even though their D wouldn’t be stellar…They’d outdo the old 7 seconds or less Suns.
Even if Gordon is better than jr smith
The backcourt of jr smith and a.i. still together is way better than rose and gordon (for now), and even if gordon can guard better than jr smith, well a.i. can guard better than rose so it balances out defensively. My point still is that either backcourt wont work in the long run, and denver knows they have to change this themselves. In the end a better offensive backcourt may look prettier than an offensively deficient one, but it doesnt neccessarily change the results in the w/l column. Its a flawed backcourt with gordon, hinrich, hughes, or thabo starting alongside rose, the bulls really need to aquire a better player that can hide the weaknesses of our bulls (denver has melo and a.i. which hides thier weaknesses at least in the regular season). Deng has to play like 80 million dollars, hinrich has to be able to at least knock down open shots, rose has to get much better defensively (so that gordon can play alongside him) or the bulls need to aquire another sg who can both defend and score.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
by piccolomair on Oct 24, 2008 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions
that's because AI is and always has been quite incredible
what separates him so well from the gordons of the world is his ability to get to the line (yeah he’s the pg not sg, but he’s undersized even for a pg). he has crazy balance and body control that gordon has never been able to show.
and “rose has to get much better defensively (so that gordon can play alongside him)” so the onus falls on rose? gordon should have been working on his defense from day 1. he tries more than others, but still isn’t good. i have no doubts rose will improve in this area, but it’s unfair to say he has to be the one to way improve to compensate for gordon’s lack of defense.
Its just that
I dont think gordon can really get much better on d. At some point your game is your game, and gordon is an average defender at best, i really dont see him getting better than that. rose has time to learn. Point in case, i thought hinrich could be okay at sg cuz in the past he has shown great ability to score, so its not so much he has to learn how to hit a wide open jumper (or one being contested at that) its he hasnt done it for a while, and he may never do it, or he may suddenly go back to doing it again. Defense i always thought was a much harder part of the game (to an extent) because its alot more about studying and doing little things. Gordon tries hard on defense, but for whatever reason he has trouble, whether it be the common excuse of size, or just a strong desire to get back on offense, ive given up on gordon being anything than an average defender. Its not that bad cuz average is still better than terrible.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
One of things i noticed during the utah game (10/18)
at one point utahs price blew past d-rose, like completely got the best of him and should have had an easy layup, but d-rose being the athletic guy he is was able to sprint, jump and block the layup as price went up for it. Me and my friend were completely amazed. I remember reading on draftexpress before the draft that he was like that. That he didnt really have a solid footing on defensive fundementals and often made mistakes but his tremendous athleticism more than made up for it, and even if he did make a mistake he could simply catch up with his opponent and begin again. Seeing it myself though was something amazing. Price isnt exactly slow…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
What is and isn't Price?
He is not going to make highlight passes. If he gets by you he’s going to shoot or defer out of the paint. Ergo, a good defensive scheme may allow you to gamble for a steal as long as you know you have shot blocking help behind you. Price drives past you right into your shot blocker, needs to force a tough shot, and Rose is there to deny him from his backside. All it takes is a fingertip on the ball to defer the shot or take it away.
You can’t teach speed and athleticism. You can teach brains.
by NBA Observer on Oct 24, 2008 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Defense from your guards is pretty simple
Stay in front of your man, stay between your man and the basket, use your arms to decrease the size of the passing lane, and dear go do not foul a jump shooter.
I think Ben can do all of these things. His defensive struggles maximize when he tries to do things he will never be able to do such as block shots and create steals.
If Ben makes a jump shooter have to get his points from jump shots then that is acceptable.
by NBA Observer on Oct 24, 2008 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Good defenders inside
would spoil the guard that gets by our guy. Even without Gordon we see the effects of guys like Gooden on defense not picking up the defense when that happens. All guards lose their guy from time to time and need the defenders inside to control the paint. I don’t think it will really matter if it is Gordon or Hinrich or whoever. When the guy gets by them, as they will no matter the effort sometimes, we don’t have a lot to clean up the mess. Especially with Gooden at C.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Look at Rose
Did you see him counseling Aaron Gray on proper defense for a 7 footer?
Just stand tall. Arms straight in the air. You can even jump straight up. you don’t have to. You’re 7’ tall. You’re 9’ tall with the standing reach.
Make the guard have to put up a high arching shot over you. Just stand still.
by NBA Observer on Oct 24, 2008 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions
the lesson, as always
Aaron Gray sucks.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 24, 2008 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Duh
That’s like saying the backcourt of Farmar/Fisher and Bryant is better than Rose and Gordon….of course it is. Gordon’s not in A.I.’s league.
You win the Joe Obvious award of the week.
Cool!
What are the perks?
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
The award is
You get one more response from me….
Certainly that was worth it.
Congrats on your first Joe Obvious award :).
Actually, I’m glad you weren’t offended by the sarcasm, as I’ve enjoyed your posts throughout the year or more…
Let's say BG is a better defender
when he see him exclusively guard 2s. Unless that is JR Smith has had the benefit of guarding PGs instead of 2s as well.
by messwiththebull on Oct 25, 2008 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions
like PGs wouldn't tear up JR Smith?
oh, right, he’d be TALLER than a PG…
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces! Be a 'Nazi' when it comes to thread duplication!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 25, 2008 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions
It's not
I never asked for Kirk to start at the 2. But offense is streaky, defense should be there every night. If BG’s shot is off, which happens very often for a carrer 43% shooter, if his defense is just unacceptable you will get buried in that match-up. If his shot is off, he cannot be a liability as a result.
by messwiththebull on Oct 25, 2008 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Duhon
Do you really think it’s good that Duhon is out of Chicago? The team has always played better with him on the court. His major issue is there is only one or two guys on the team who can shoot- Deng and Gordon- and they don’t have any low post scorers. Obviously that hurts his shooting and assist numbers. However, all of his other numbers were strong, and he plays good defense. The Bulls would have been better off trading Gordon.
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Yes I do
Duhon’s a nice to have 15-20 MPG guy when you don’t have the depth we do. Duh can’t shoot, does get trigger happy, is a good defender, and can stabilize an offense but only for limited minutes. Play him too much and the negatives far outweigh the positives….
Especially now that we have ROSE, I’m more than happy Duh’s gone, and I liked Duh’s game more than most on here.
Whoa!
There were rumors of Duhon fans, I just didn’t believe them.
by RogersPark Kris on Oct 24, 2008 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I’m a Knicks fan, trying to stay optimistic. Now look, if he shoots like he did in the preseason, which is possible, he’s a good point guard. He’s a facilitator, doesn’t make many mistakes, and plays solid defense. The Bulls should have kept Duhon, played him with Rose, and gotten rid of all their other guards. It’s kind of silly to say that his negatives show up at a higher rate when he plays more. He doesn’t have conditioning issues, so if anything, he should be more comfortable and more in the flow if he plays more.
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duhon wouldn't have been
THAT bad, purely to backup rose, but that requires hinrich to be off the team as well. but honestly, i am happy to never see that guy in a bulls uniform again. especially for the whole midlevel exception, which was insane of new york to pay him.
simplifies things
having Duhon gone from Chicago simplifies things. As things are now, I appreciate his absence from the back court chaos.
by chicago-homesick-blues on Oct 24, 2008 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Duhon was gone when he drafted Rose
Too many guaranteed contracts at the guard position. We wouldn’t have signed him even if it was for less that 2.5 mil per.
by NBA Observer on Oct 24, 2008 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions
KCJ's aim is spot on.
Without Hughes, Hinrich will start. Gordon’s place on this team is better when he is playing off the bench.
Unless Rose makes Gordon drastically better, I don’t see Gordon’s role changing this year (relative to last year.) Hinrich’s role will change, of course, being a combo guard. But, Gordon is the most effective doing what he does best.
What I am disappointed in is how the Bull’s backcourt has cleared up. I am glad that it cleared up, but I am dissapointed in HOW it cleared up. I wanted Hughes or Hinrich to step up- that would set the rotation. But now the rotation is set BY DEFAULT. The rotation is now less of a conscious choice/decision by the coaches, and more a reaction to unfavorable (or favorable) plot luck.
by chicago-homesick-blues on Oct 24, 2008 2:36 PM CDT reply actions
They are who we thought they were
We, and the coaches, already knew what Larry Hughes can do, force shots and maybe reach 41% shooting.
We, and the coaches, already knew that Kirk creates with the ball and a screen and doesn’t move well without the ball.
The one thing we did know was that Rose was going to be the major minutes point guard before the end of his first season.
I’ll say this again. Lebron James told the NBA that the Cavs were “Ricky Davis’ team”. Ricky Davis was traded 6 months after drafting James and 2 months into the 2003 NBA season on 12/15/03. They played the same position.
by NBA Observer on Oct 24, 2008 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Doesn't
It doesn’t matter who plays point guard if everyone else is going to stand around on offense. Rose looks great, but everyone else stands and watches. Very depressing to watch. Rose will be exhausted by January.

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