Bulls Trade and Financial Outlook for 2008/2009
Premise
OK, this is a little more technical, and at the same time a little more abstract than your average season preview, but I think it touches on the underlying factors that we're likely to see drive the Bulls this year than just talking about how much we hate Larry Hughes. Basically I just want to take a hard look at the finances, because we know damn good and well they drive everything, and see where the Bulls need to go.
Guaranteed money
The Bulls $69.84M in salary heading into the year, with 12 players under guaranteed contracts and $100,000 of “dead money” paid to the waived JamesOn Curry. This gives them $2.01M remaining in salary before they hit the luxury tax threshold (of $71.15M)
Final Roster Spots
NBA Rules require that the Bulls keep 14 players on their roster, so they will keep around at least two of the following guys on non-guaranteed contracts:
Michael Ruffin ($798k)
Demetris Nichols ($712k)
Roger Powell ($712k)
Darius Washington ($712k)
Elton Brown ($442k)
At a minimum, they could keep Brown and one of the $712K guys and they would remain $859k below the luxury tax threshold.
At maximum, they can keep 15 players, but if they do so, one of them must be Brown in order to stay under the tax (they could keep and two of Ruffin, Nichols, Powell, and Washington) and then Brown and stay under the tax by a mere $61k (that’s close since it’s quite possible our guesses at other players’ salaries might be off by that much). So at most they can keep two out of Ruffin, Nichols, Powell, and Washington. Keeping three of them would put the Bulls over the luxury tax threshold.
Hence, finances affect the decision here, but not by a whole lot.
Trade thoughts for this season
While the Bulls have significant questions regarding personnel going forward (and not just about Michael Ruffin), there’s probably not a lot that can be done about it. Finance is going to dictate personnel.
No matter how the final roster spots shake out, the Bulls will be pretty close to the LT threshold. In effect, this will impose a pretty strict limit on the Bulls if they try to make a trade. While the NBA rules will allow a team to take back up to 125% + $100k of the salary they trade away, the requirement (to avoid the LT) on the Bulls will mean they basically have to take back less salary than they give out if they make a trade. Or work hard to make the numbers as close as possible.
This could make some otherwise appealing trades unfeasible. For example, suppose the Clippers agreed to a Marcus Camby for Andres Nocioni swap. While the Bulls could use a defensive big like Camby (under contract for this year and the next) and they would benefit to unload Noc’s long-term deal, Camby makes $10M while Noc makes $8M. Doing this trade would increase the Bulls’ team salary by $2M and push them over the luxury tax threshold.
Hence, it probably ain’t gonna happen. This isn’t to push for that particular trade, but simply to give an example of how close the Bulls are to the tax threshold and how much it could potentially effect them (going over the tax last year cost a team a minimum of $7M, so that would appear to be a good estimate for what going over this year would mean).
These trade restrictions are made more difficult by the fact that there are several reasons the Bulls might want to trade.
Next Summer’s cap position
If the salary cap continues to grow (it traditionally does), the cap for the 2009/2010 season will be approximately $61M and the luxury tax threshold will be nearly $74M. The Bulls currently have about $58.8M in salary commitments to 9 players. This could decline if the Bulls don’t exercise team options on Cedric Simmons ($2.67M) and/or Thabo Sefolosha ($2.75M). They will also have to figure in the value of their first round pick next year (guess around $1.5M) and various minimum salary players to fill out the roster (perhaps another $2M).
At a minimum then, the Bulls will have about $62.3M in salary heading into next year. That’s about $11.7M under the luxury tax threshold If Thabo is extended, that will become $65.05M ($9M under the LT) and if Thabo and Simmons are both extended it becomes $67.7M ($6.3M under the LT). The decisions on Thabo and Simmons must be made in the next couple of weeks, and are important because for a couple of reasons. First they change the nature of the players’ current trade value.
Second, they change how much leeway we have to make offers to our impending free agents; Gordon, Drew Gooden, and Aaron Gray. Even under the most favorable circumstances it would appear unlikely that, with our current salary structure, we can afford to keep and Gooden and Gordon. Simply adding their current salaries without a raise to next year’s team would push the Bulls into the tax threshold. Decisions must be made, or circumstances will make them.
Impending Free Agents: Ben Gordon, Drew Gooden, and Aaron Gray
Gordon’s situation presents the biggest problem for the Bulls. It’s a problem because he’s a guy they were ready to commit a big, long-term contract to (and hence, a guy the Bulls clearly value) but who is poised to leave as an unrestricted free agent next year after two years of mutual unhappiness. As with last year, Gordon’s future with the Bulls threatens to prevent them from making other decisions.
If the Bulls operate under the assumption he can be re-signed, they’ll still need to move other players if they want to keep Gooden or simply play it safe. There are several potential problems in the estimate I gave above. It’s a best guess, but there’s no certainty. For example, suppose the cap doesn’t increase by the expected amount, Gordon players better than expected, or the Bulls get a surprisingly high draft pick that makes more than $1.5M. Any of those circumstances could cause a couple million dollar swing in the salary cap that would wipe out the ability to keep him.
On top of this problem is the fact that Gordon agreeing to come back to the Bulls after two acrimonious negotiations seems improbable. Should the Bulls risk declining the option on Thabo, or trading Nocioni for a non-productive player on a shorter contract, for example, in order to free up as much room as possible, only to have Gordon leave anyway?
The prospects for trading Gordon are likewise bleak. He must agree to any trade, and by doing so, he loses his Bird rights. This means that the team he’s traded cannot exceed the salary cap to sign him the way most returning players can be resigned. He would either have to agree to a MLE contract, leave for another team, or be traded to a team that’s significantly under the salary cap (thus allowing them to avoid the Bird Rule in the first place). Thus, I expect the potential trade candidates for Gordon are very limited. I would suspect:
1. Miami and OKC, which both project to be under the salary cap by enough to resign him to a significant contract,
2. Portland, which is in a similar situation, but which has several younger, similar players (Jerryd Bayless, Rudy Fernandez)
3. Perhaps a championship contending team that cannot hope to re-sign Gordon, but would like a quality player for this season (Boston, Houston, New Orleans, San Antonio?).
In all of these cases, the return the Bulls could expect is… not good. Unlike this summer, when teams like Miami and New York reportedly offered to take a bad contract off the Bulls hands, teams could not offer this, since doing so would compromise their ability to re-sign Gordon. Realistically, a player on a rookie contract or a draft pick seems like the best sort of return we might realistically expect.
A final possibility might be to arrange a trade that both gives Gordon to another team and clears significant cap room for that team as well. For example, pairing Gooden, Gordon and Cedric Simmons in a trade with the Clippers for Marcus Camby, Tim Thomas, and Eric Gordon would probably give the Clippers enough room to resign Gooden and Ben Gordon if they wished to do so, while giving us a more traditional center and a replacement SG prospect (however, this trade still runs into the luxury tax problem talked about above).
In short, there are some possibilities for trading him, but they are all very complicated and it’s likely we won’t get much return. On the other hand, there’s some possibility for keeping him in the long run, but they’re similarly complicated and hold the potential we lose him for nothing.
In either case, we seem to run a risk even by sitting on our hands. If we do nothing this season, then Gordon is likely to leave at the end of the year for nothing. It’s pretty questionable whether we could afford to re-sign him even if he allows the Bulls the opportunity to match an offer he receives from another team.
Drew Gooden’s situation is somewhat tied to Gordons, as well as the performance of Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah. Even if both of those young players fare well, Gooden is our only well-experienced and somewhat offensive-minded frontcourt player. Even if they do well, it’d be a shame to see him walk for no return at the end of the year. Some team out there, I’d think, would give up a draft pick or two if we don’t have him in our future.
Although it’s certainly possible Aaron Gray is a non-factor, with the reports he’s lost significant weight, he might become a worthwhile player. As the only true center on the roster, he’ll probably command some playing time. And even if he’s not great, big strong seven footers command money. So looks consistent, productive, and improving this season, it’s certainly possible some other team could make him a significant offer (in my mind I think up the MLE). Whether it’s important to keep him in that case is something else that should be considered. Especially in the context if limited funds available before we hit the luxury tax threshold next season.
The Old Regime: Andres Nocioni and Kirk Hinrich
Probably the quickest way to free up finances would be to trade one or both of these players for expiring contracts (or a team under the cap). In the case of Nocioni, I frankly can’t understand why this hasn’t been done. While I value his manic style, there are over a hundred million reasons he shouldn’t be here (Luol Deng’s got $71M of them, Noc holds another $29M of them). It just doen’t make sense to be paying Noc that kind of money when we’ve got our best player playing his primary position and several better and/or cheaper options at power forward.
Further, he’s likely to lose whatever value he might have if he’s forced to rot on the bench. If he’s played significant minutes… well, it means a better player, or one more important to our future is sitting on the bench. He should have been traded already.
The logic for trading Hinrich isn’t as emphatic as that for trading Nocioni, but at the same time I don’t think anyone should look at Kirk and see him as anything more than a short-term solution at SG and backup PG to Rose while he gets his feet wet. Sure, having Kirk as a somewhat proven PG and decent all-around guard makes it easier on Rose at some level. There’s simply no logic to him as a long-term member of the Bulls with Rose here. Not with his abilities or with his salary.
So what to do?
I suppose I’ve given away my answers in discussing Nocioni and Hinrich. I don’t understand how Gordon’s contract situation prevented the Bulls from trading Nocioni if there were an opportunity to do so. So that’s trading chip number one.
A lot of folks, John Paxson amongst them, have opined that gee, the Bulls couldn’t possibly risk trading Hinrich and then turning around and losing Gordon for nothing, thus depriving them of their two best guards besides Rose. That made sense on the surface, but after thinking it out, I’m not seeing the logic of it.
First, if you keep Hinrich until the “situation” with Gordon is settled, it makes it more likely to “settle” it by Gordon simply walking away from a continued logjam that’s uncomfortable for everyone. If, on the other hand, you trade Hinrich, you make it more likely Gordon stays because you create a workable environment.
Second, Hinrich isn’t that good at SG (or possibly at all any more, to my somewhat surprise). His best value is as a PG, and it’s fairly obvious Rose is going to play big minutes from the beginning. So Hinrich’s only real value to us is what he brings as a SG, and his value there really isn’t all that high.
Third, if you’re worried about this problem from a perspective of losing both Hinrich and Gordon, why not use one of those guys (or both, or in some combination with others) to try trading for a better pure SG prospect to pair along with Rose? I think everyone can agree Kirk’s best value is at PG. We need a SG. Some team around the league probable needs a PG and has a SG to give. Making a trade in that direction would kill two birds with one stone.
Finally, consider the “worst case scenario” of trading Hinrich for a pick or a frontcourt player today, playing Gordon big minutes, and then having him want to leave town this summer. Well, that’d suck because it leaves us without a long-term answer at SG. Which is exactly where we’d be if Kirk was our primary SG. All we’d be is a season later in coming to that realization and trying to do something about it.
Planning for the long-run and the 2010 Free Agency season
I see three immediate needs for this team in addition to one long-term priority priority. The long-term priority is to open up room to sign a maximum salary player in 2010. That’s two offseasons from now. The fact that three of our projected starters by then (Noah, Deng, Rose) will be locked in to rookie deals or at a reasonable price makes it feasible to lock down one more starter, a couple role players, and still have legitimate salary to offer a difference-making free agent like Chris Bosh or Dwyane Wade. Plus, because Tyrus and Thabo will be restricted free agents that summer, they provide some “backup capability” in that they can be resigned in the event we don’t attract a max-worthy player (or Tyrus himself comes close to that). At worst, keeping that option open unless a clearly spectacular deal comes along should be a priority.
To do this, we can make a basic assumption that if the salary cap continues to grow at historic rates, we can expect the cap to be something like $63M. If we need to have $18M in cap space to give to a free agent, that gives us a maximum of $45M in salary commitments for the season. Figure in $2M for minimum salary players/cap holds and another $3M for our 2009 and 2010 first rounders. That gives us about $40M to spend. Currently we’re slotted to give Deng $11.4M, Rose $5.5M and Noah $3.1M. That’s five players counting the draft picks, and we’ve got $20M left to spend on some combination of Hinrich ($9M), Nocioni ($7M), Gordon, Gooden, Gray, Tyrus, Thabo and/or someone else who enters the picture between now and then. That seems like plenty of options to me. If you figure your average quality NBA starter is going to make $10M/yr, we can probably afford (if we trade away Noc and Hinrich as we should) one very good player (a Michael Redd or Joe Johnson type) or two middle of the road types (a Mike Miller or Ben Gordon at SG and a Tyrus Thomas or Drew Gooden at PF).
In the shorter run, there are two things I’d like to see happen so long as they don’t actively impede that long-run goal. First, Bulls fans shouldn’t underestimate what good interior gets you. That was a big part of our collapse last year, and turning some combination of Drew Gooden and his expiring contract (not an intimidating interior defender!) and guys in the backcourt into a guy that actually inspires some fear up front over this year and next would give us a lot of help as Noah and hopefully Thomas gain strength, learn the game and turn their significant defensive potential into reality. A guy like Marcus Camby (who I made obvious my desire for above) wouldn’t be bad at all). A completely unheralded guy to take a look at would be the good Collins twin, Jarron, who waists away on the Jazz bench despite being a charge taking machine.
The final thing is simply to resolve the SG mess. One way or another, resolution of the situation would be good in and of itself.
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Fantastic post.
I agree – we need to get rid of this SG mess as soon as possible. It’s damaging our team in more ways than one.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Fantastic stuff!
I think someone needs to send this to Pax ASAP, with the portions regarding Hinrich and Nocioni highlighted. Not to mention the fact that we are going to have two players getting big minutes on the team this year (Gooden and Gordon) that in all likelihood will not be around next year. How does that help this team in the future at all? I think most Bulls fans would be fine with the team taking a step back this year in order to grow a real contender. Rose, Thomas, Noah and Deng need to all get big minutes this year in order to evaluate what their place will be down the road.
I know it's early. it's early. it's early
but doesn’t Rose’s early performance, not to mention that they should just play him a lot regardless of performance, make the whole ‘we have to keep Hinrich to man the fort at PG’ reasoning less applicable?
Though I suppose the “we have to keep Hinrich because we may lose Gordon” (which, as you pointed out, makes even less sense) talk could be the replacement excuse.
It’s silly that Reinsdorf can’t see that an ability to pay the tax is a weapon that should be used as a competitive advantage over the crybaby Michael Heisleys of the league. Not to hemorrhage the payroll, but to make a good deal that may put them in the tax for a season, but not permanently. (though I wouldn’t use that weapon to get Marcus Camby)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 12, 2008 11:36 PM CDT reply actions
And isn't the fact that Pax keeps holding on to Hinrich
an indictment of Thabo as well? I thought they wanted him to be a big part of the future? If Hinrich goes, that opens up lots of minutes. I just don’t get the Kirk infatuation. With him at SG, he’s highly overvalued. Not that I don’t like the guy, but it’s time to part ways; it would be a good idea for both sides IMO.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
early performances
Did I miss something? I didn’t realize Rose was looking like Chris Paul in the 1st two games. Look, I love Rose, but so far he’s looked like a shaky rookie with potential. You need to keep Hinrich because he’s the only other one who can really play PG. No, he’s not a star at PG, but relative to the other options on the roster, he’s clearly the best.
Also, don’t you remember the summer when Rose had tendonitis issues? Apparently his knee was wearing on hiom at the end of last season as well. In thr pros, he’s going to have to play another 45-50 games more than he did in his college season. How conident are you that he will make it thru the season – especially if he has to play heavy minutes.
Your issues are a SG, the fact you have three guys vying for PT there, but unfortunately none of those three would be starting for any other team in the NBA. SG and SF are the glamour positions in the NBA. Unless you have Chris Paul, you need to have an all-star or close to an all-star at one of both of those positions. I don’t see it.
They already went all-in on Rose by picking him
A shaky rookie with potential? C’mon.
If he’s screwed, then we’re screwed, and having a “solid” Hinrich isn’t gonna help us much. That gets us from what, 25 wins with Darius Washington to 30 wins? So what?
You’re making the case that the franchise screwed the pooch drafting Rose, but if that’s the case, then whether we trade Kirk or not is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. We’d be a hell of a lot better off simply planning for success then missing opportunities for success by excpecting failure (a tendency the Bulls have a tendency to engage in).
by Sports2 on Oct 13, 2008 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
shaky rookie
Yes, we are screwed.
However, where did I say that the organization screwed up by drafting Rose? My third sentence started with “Look, I love Rose….”. He’s the pick I hoped for.
I just think you guys need to be realistic and look at the facts. Has he looked like Chris Paul so far? I don’t think so. Can he get better? Yes, of course, and I’m betting he will. Will he make it thru the whole season? I doubt it, and the chance of him making it thru are probably somewhat proportional to his PT. Kirk will be serviceable at backup PG, and will look better against the opponents 2nd string PG.
BTW – I am not predicting a strong season for the Bulls. I think 33 wins on the high side, while Rose cuts his teeth in the NBA. I would love it if I was really wrong, but that would take Deng being at or near All-Star level AND Thomas/Noah both improving signficantly. I think that is too much to hope for. We will be sub-standard at the NBA SG position. Probably serviceable at center, and probably serviceable at PF.
I hate to say it, but you might have to wait until next year to have a competative Bulls’ team, and that will only happen if the solve the SG position in the off-season.
So we have to have Chris Paul-level PG to justify trading Hinrich?
Is that what you’re saying? I don’t think I can align with that logic. Plus, if we trade Kirk, Hughes can move to backup PG. While this is not the best scenario, obviously, it at least helps clear the SG problem.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
oh, hughes will just love that.
part of the reason he hated cleveland was they forced him to play pg.
Who cares what he thinks? He's already pissed that he's in a logjam at SG.
Dude’s not the coach. He can cry for all I care.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
But yeah, your point is certainly valid.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
???
So if we’ve got a 33 win team even with Hinrich, why on earth should we hold onto him like Grim Death?
That seems like it’s locking us into 33 wins. If, on the other hand, we traded him (and our other non-fitting parts) away for something good, we might actually do better.
And even if we don’t, we’re infinitely better positioned in the long-run, which everyone agrees is much more important.
Moving Hinrich and Noc should
Clear everything up. Trading away Hinrich will not only help keeping Gordon but also help the team in the long term.
We need a SG and Gordon is one. It seems to me that Gordon is a business man and does not take things personally. If you show him you want him and show him some more green next year he will listen.
Trading Noc and Hinrich for potiental of clearing cap space or for a Center should be the plan.
I think he's looked great so far.
Rose is the only thing good about this preseason, he’s already looking like the best player on the team (though I’m guessing Luol is just takin it easy)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 13, 2008 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions
besides, like sports2 said above
It made little sense for Paxson, and it makes even less sense for us: why are we afraid to deem Rose a franchise savior? He’s drafted as such, expect him to be awesome instead of hemming and hawing over his ‘shakiness’.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 13, 2008 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions
And really, what does it matter if he doesn't look like Chris Paul already?
That’s a completely irrelevant statement. The kid is 20 and he already looks damn good. He’s been the best guard on the team so far.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Paul had 2 years of college Williams had 3.
He was drafted as even more of a project than those guys. He’s better athletically, but not basketball-wise. As long as the athleticism shows itself in the form of being able to do things that few other PG’s can, we should be happy.
(I’m agreeing—just adding on.)
Yeah, that's something I should have mentioned.
As far as doing things that few other PGs can, I definitely think we’ll be seeing that more as the year goes on. Is there a highlight of that nasty layup over Dampier in the lane anywhere? How many PGs at this level, right now, can pull off that kind of move with such ease? That was some unbelievable elevation for a guy at his position. Not very many PGs (and certainly not Kirk Hinrich!) can pull that type of move off.
It’s exciting to see how he’ll develop, so why not just ride him and send our mediocre now-SG Kirk packing? I’m not worried about spot backup minutes; Darius Washington and even Hughes or Thabo can take care of those. I’m confident Rose will be getting at least 30 minutes a game so backup PG isn’t really a dire need right now.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
and Gordon can pitch in there as well
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 13, 2008 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions
Gordon can not play PG
There is no way Gordon can play PG. He can’t dribble, doesn’t pass well, and has no court-sense. Really, what kind of kool-aide are some of you drinking.
Keeping Kirk doesn’t help the win total. However, it will help you keep Rose healthy so he gets to year 2. Now, if you want to tank the season and play for another draft pick, I am all for it given the hand we have been dealt.
I want the Bulls to be a winer this year, but you have to be realistic about what you have on this team.
Again, somehow you are missing the point. I love Rose. However, all your posts about his lack of experience compared to Paul and Williams just re-inforces my point. I think he will be good this year, maybe very good. I think he will be great in the future. I’d like to keep him healthy this year and let him get us all excited about the future.
As to the another comment above – Yes, I think you would need a Chris Paul quality PG to make this team competative. You have no all-stars at any other position. Why would you think, with a new coach, who has never coached, a rookie PG, a couple of over-paid SGs, unproven Cs and PFs, that you could be competative with this team?
Really! Be honest with yourselves.
a few minutes a game?
it’ll be basically him dominating the ball, but it’s doable.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 13, 2008 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not worried about Rose's health
he’s 20. he may hit the rookie wall, but whatever….he’ll still play. Ironically I think only Kirk gets the ‘tired’ excuse year after year. They don’t need to keep Hinrich just to ease in Rose in case he hits that wall. Especially if you consider that such a role only lowers his trade value after a season.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 13, 2008 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
I must have missed all those all-stars...
we had during our last few playoff runs…
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Bottom line is
Hinrich is too expensive(and to give him some credit, “too good”) to be a back up point guard, playing 5 minutes a night. Additionally, after watching him at the 2 spot, he’s not a great shooting guard. There are teams out there who could benefit from having Hinrich for their pg spot. This seems like a logical move to trade him.
by RogersPark Kris on Oct 13, 2008 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
I think Gordon could especially do some damage
in the pick-and-roll scheme Vinny is putting in. They’ll have to respect his shot at all times, which will lead to some defensive rotation, which should lead to a non-stagnant offense. I’m not saying I want 40 mins of BG doing this, but 10 mins would be fine as Rose takes a breather.
That reminds me ...
Most point guards don’t get alley-oops called for them.
Between now and February
contending teams are going to have injuries and/or find that they are a player short. Thabo and TT will be given a chance to prove themselves. Everyone else will be given enough minutes to showcase themselves, and then Pax will apply Sports2’s principles in trading just about anyone but Rose to achieve the desired result.
So, we have to wait for injuries, contending teams to develop holes, and the development of Thabo and TT.
no Pax is in a holding pattern
we’re anxiously waiting for him to turn some his his assets into value before Gooden becomes a FA and Gordon walks for nothing.
by Blacknight23 on Oct 15, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions
We're in a holding pattern
while we anxiously await for the events of the season to unfold, after which, god willing and the creek don’t rise, Pax pulls the trigger(s) and implements Sports2’s principles.
Joe Johnson
One place I’d try looking if I were the Bulls would be Atlanta. I wonder just how much they consider Joe Johnson their franchise. He’s obviously a really good player, but he’s probably not quite worth the near max he’s making. They’ll be fighting for a lower playoff seed again this year, and Mike Bibby didn’t look like the long-term answer for them.
And I think they’re due to have cap space next year so they could re-sign Gordon. Perhaps a deal centering around Hinrich and Gordon for Joe Johnson would work for them?
That’d give them a longer run backcourt that could work (with Smith, Horford and Marvin Williams up front they’ll be good), and we’d get to solidify ourselves with one really good shooting guard.
As long as we’re continuing the fantasy, I could also see some logic to adding Noc on our side for Speedy Claxton from them. Not because I like Speedy, but it gets Noc off the books and gets us a short-run solution at the backup PG spot. Noc would actually be useful for the Hawks since they’re kind of shallow without Josh Childress.
I’d be perfectly willing to throw in our 1st rounder this year to sweeten the deal if we end up with
1- Rose, Claxton, Washington
2- Johnson, Hughes
3- Deng, Thabo
4/5- Tyrus, Gooden, Noah, Ruffin, Gray
That’s the sort of team I could see working out, and it’s the sort of team I could see leaving alone for this season and next. I’d still look to move Gooden for a bigger/better defensive player on a two year deal, but but I’d still be a lot happier than I am now. We could simply let it grow, hope Noah and Tyrus step up defensively, and feel pretty good about adding a major free agent piece in 2010.
Hinrich and Gordon for Joe Johnson
would be pretty much the sweetest trade ever. I’d love to see that happen but I can’t imagine Pax has even considered something like this.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
why would Atlanta make that deal?
Yeah, that would be a GREAT deal fro us, but why would Atlanta take that deal? Now, maybe if the season totally tanks, maybe a lottery pick thrown in would help, but I am not sure we will be THAT bad.
You said:
The prospects for trading Gordon are likewise bleak. He must agree to any trade, and by doing so, he loses his Bird rights. This means that the team he’s traded cannot exceed the salary cap to sign him the way most returning players can be resigned. He would either have to agree to a MLE contract, leave for another team, or be traded to a team that’s significantly under the salary cap (thus allowing them to avoid the Bird Rule in the first place). Thus, I expect the potential trade candidates for Gordon are very limited. I would suspect:
But its wrong in the context which you said it…You are correct that Ben Gordon cannot be traded during the season without his consent or he will lose his Bird Rights. However, when he becomes a free agent July 1st, the whole point of keeping the Bird Rights is so the Bulls can sign and trade him to a team that is over the cap. Because they will retain his Bird rights, thus able to exceed the cap to resign, giving Gordon the option of trying to find a deal with any team in the league. So, we can get a lot more in return for BG than a rookie contract or draft picks. Though, there is also a chance we can lose him for nothing.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
Something else to consider...
…if Gordon’s being traded to an under-the-cap team, he doesn’t have to fit into their long-term plans. If Portland or Miami want to try Gordon out, and are unsure that Gordon will fit long-term but don’t mind trying him out at the expense of their younger options* for 2 months, they can still do sign-and-trades. If Portland, or Miami, or whatever team, wanted, they could try Gordon out for two months, sign him using their cap space, and immediately trade him (sign-and-trade)… if there isn’t a rule against that.
*Interestingly, Fernandez is only (exactly, actually) two years younger than Gordon. His rookie season will be at the same age (23) that Gordon had his best season (06/07). It will be interesting to see how close Rudy comes to Gordon’s very efficient 23.3 pts/36.
Good point
That’s true. If the Bulls play him a lot, it’d actually make it more likely they could wrangle a favorable sign-and-trade if they can’t/don’t want to re-sign him themselves.
I wouldn’t oversell that option either though. The return value most teams get when they trade away a free agent ends up being not very great. A trade exception would certainly make other deals easier, but I’m not really sure we’d get something better than a pick or prospect going in that direction.
Consider it in light of 2010. Is some other team going to give up a really top notch player that we want to commit to paying in 2010 to get Gordon? Whether it screws up our cap position or not, I think that’s a pretty iffy proposition.
What kind of return would you be thinking
I think keeping Hinrich can make sense.
2 reasons:
1) Using him in a sign-and-trade to acquire a big 2010 FA. I’ve advocated “just pay the man” for Gordon using this logic; keeping Hinrich at a less rate is along the same lines. It’s not as preferable to me as keeping Gordon, though, because his salary would be $1 or $2 million less (meaning the Bulls would have to add in more salary), and he’s not as good (and will be turning 30 that year) so the Bulls would have to add more talent, draft picks, cash, etc.
2) If the Bulls sign Chris Bosh or Amare Stoudemire to play PF. The Bulls could renounce Thomas and Thabo and trade Nocioni for a 2010-expiring and have plenty of room to sign one of them. Having Hinrich at SG (or as a backup PG/SG to a surprising! draft pick) along w/ Rose, Deng, Bosh and Noah is better than… nothing.
Although, I think having Gordon is better in both instances, but I think Hinrich is better than nothing in those two specific incidents.
Keep the Lakers open as an optimal destination for Hinrich
The lakers are going to have PG issues in the regular season. They’ll do what they can with Odom coming off the bench handling the PG duties, but they have no PG can that can defend the position.
With Kirk at PG, the Lakers can allow Kobe to defend the weaker guard giving him chances to gamble in the passing lane or at the least keep some energy to excel on the other end.
by NBA Observer on Oct 13, 2008 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions
And his age won't be a factor, obviously.
Hinrich and Nocioni and the trade exception for Odom and Walton? That would be a good deal deal. And could it work for both teams? The Bulls still stay below the LuxTax this year, and they could re-sign Gordon if needed and Gooden, if needed as well, this off-season… and still be in a decent spot for 2010.
Throw in a draft pick or some cash and it could happen, no?
Why would the Lakers do this?
They are championship favorites heading into the season…this deal does not make them better.
The Lakers do not play a system that requires a PG and appear to happy with the Fischer/Farmar combo…the trial of Odom is really akin to the Toni Kukoc era in Chicago…they are looking for ways to maximize Odom’s unique skillset.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
by Dionysus2.0 on Oct 13, 2008 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't really see how Kirk is much of an upgrade over the Farmar/Fisher combo
Fisher has the experience and 3 point shooting and Farmar seems to be coming into his own as of late. Nocioni is pretty similar to Vujajic (Insane, scrappy, aggressive, shoots lots of 3s, shaggy hair, Euro…etc.). I don’t see why they’d do this, but I like your thinking from the Bulls perspective.
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Hinrich is a better defender than either.
And probably better offensively than either as well, w/o the potential Farmar—but better now.
And, um, Nocioni plays a different position than Vujajic.
It’s less about them being better than what they would have left over (I think they would be, even if only a little), and more about if they’re enough better to make up for losing Walton and Odom. That’s where taking back Walton and adding in picks/cash might help.
Yes Kirk is a little better than Fish/Farmar.
But Noc is nowhere near the player Lamar Odom is…and this idea gives the Lakers Hinrich in addition to the other two players…talk about a logjam, that idea would give the Lakers five players legitimately looking for minutes in their backcourt…and another waiting in the wings from China…Overcrowding the backcourt and downgrading the small forward position does NOT help the Lakers win a title this year.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
I know.
But why would the Lakers, who are trying to win a championship this season, trade Odom for Nocioni at SF? They are not worried about losing him for nothing after the season, unless they are lottery bound. Otherwise, they are only trading Odom to improve their post-season run…and Nocioni and Hinrich do not have that effect.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
Why would the Lakers trade Odom for Nocioni ?
Because they are missing Divac’s flopping acts a lot.
The Game chose him !
I don't think it's definite.
That’s why I said you’d have to include a pick or two or cash. I’m not saying it’s a slam dunk. When has any trade ever been an obvious “win” for either team?
Jackson has already talked about Odom playing as sixth man. Odom is significantly better at PF instead of SF (so much so that he goes from being well above-average to merely average). The Lakers have a 3-4 year window of championship caliber player. Odom leaves after this year and other than the MLE and what-not, they can’t add another player. Losing Odom after next year would lessen their chances of winning after 2009.
Hinrich and Nocioni were both linked to the Lakers in trade rumors this summer. Hinrich and Nocioni are both considered “scrappy and tough defenders”, something everyone said the Lakers lacked in the Finals. The Lakers wouldn’t really have to give up much to get them. Both are arguably better shooters than what they have, which is a big deal when you have two awesome low-post presences. Hinrich and Nocioni help keep their window open for the rest of Kobe’s career.
I’m not saying it’s a slam dunk—or if I did, I’m changing my tune—I do think there is an argument to be made however.
no way hinrich is a better defender than Farmar
Farmar can stay with guys like Parker and Paul. Hinrich gets crushed by those guys. Hinrich can’t hit a spot up jumper to save his life, which is what you need with Kobe, Gasol and Bynum. Hinrich isn’t a good fit for the Lakers, no matter how good Bulls fans want to believe he is.
This year might be different.
Farmar is still young. But just because as he’s quick as those guys doesn’t mean he’s able to defend them. A lot of guys get “crushed” by Parker and Paul, that’s why, like, they’re so good and everything, ya dig? One could also argue that Hinrich’s ability to occasionally guard SG’s would allow Kobe some freedom to “save his energy” at times.
My subject line is referring to...
…historically, Hinrich’s been better than average defending PG’s. Farmar’s been worse than average.
Farmar is not a good defender at all
At best he is below average.
Farmar’s best defense is seen when Radmonivic is on the floor with him, but this is only because Radmonivic is an even worse defender.
Hinrich is a an 8 of 10. Farmar is a 4.
by NBA Observer on Oct 14, 2008 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
even that's a little high
for Kirk. I’d go 7, but that’s just me :-)
by NormVanBeer on Oct 14, 2008 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions
It's a good debate I'd like to have at BAB
It’s certainly what adds the most to his value. He can defend most NBA shooting guards and I don’t know any other 6’3" player in the league that can do this.
by NBA Observer on Oct 14, 2008 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions
he doesn't get bonus points
for being short.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 14, 2008 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions
No one does
But lack of height can be redressed with quick feet and body movement. The only way 6’7" Maxiell can guard 6’11" Dwight Howard is with a decent reach and excellent body position.
Attn Ben Gordon.
by NBA Observer on Oct 16, 2008 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Okay, they play different positions.
But they play very similar roles for their respective teams. And I don’t see why they’d get rid of Odom. He’s the best player in that deal and they’re trying to win the title this year, I doubt they’re really looking for picks and cash when soon Kobe will be nearing the end of his prime. I disagree that they’d be better off with Kirk and Noc, but that’s just a matter of opinion.
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I'm not a fan of holding on to players for use in a sign-and-trade
I’d argue a couple reasons.
1. To force a sign and trade, you generally have to have the ability to sign the player you want outright. If you can’t, you use a lot of leverage. For example, if we’ve got the cap space to sign Bosh, then we’ve got leverage and the sign-and-trade potential becomes sweetener. If we don’t actually have the cap space to make a credible offer to Bosh unless we make a sign and trade, how are we different from the other teams in the league? We’re not.
2. When it comes to sign and trades, there’s no guarantee the team we’d end up trading with would have any real specific need for the players we’re banking on giving up. Again, suppose it’s Bosh and Toronto. I suppose Kirk is better than nothing for them, but I don’t see what obvious role he’d have on their team. They may be just has happy, or happier, with a trade exception than with Kirk.
In short, I see little upside to going out of our way to keep a guy for trading purposes. Especially with the Bulls who’ve typically been conservative when it comes to trading (PJ Brown anyone?).
The only way I see that as being a useful option is if it works out that the player we’re potentially signing and trading has contingency value for us. Tyrus fits this case perfectly. Since he’s an RFA going into that summer, we could potentially use him as trade bait, but we could also re-sign him in the (likely) event we don’t get a big free agent.
Kirk doesn’t fit that profile. If we keep him around and it turns out some other team doesn’t want him, we’re actually screwed as far as getting a big free agent.
I don't advocate keeping anyone for that purpose.
Just saying it’s a backup plan. I’m in favor of having the best team.
Forget it!
I believe Hinrich will be here (Bulls) as long as Paxson is here. Paxson aint retracting his words spoken last month this early. “He does want to be responsible for both Kirk and Ben not being here next year”. He can only guarantee Kirk, if all goes well for Ben, Paxson has no control in regards to his decision.
Hinrich is untouchable in Paxson’s unspoken plan….
and Ben can walk if he gets an offer next summer. Paxson is playing with two decks for some reason and attempting to seemingly give the impression that he’ll trade a guard (potentially Kirk) by letting Darius Washington practice?
Yet, Paxson would love to unload Hughes and he believes that would solve all problems and ease the tension between his beloved protoJ and Gordon, but it probably doesn’t because of Thabo….
It looked to me like that was his spoken plan :)
But yeah, obviously that’s a major area of disagreement between the John/Jim Paxson/Reinsdorf/Gar Foreman/whomever it is in the Bulls that’s so hard on Kirk’s jock.
(You could also replace Kirk’s name with Noc and that sentence would seem just as true).
I agree that the Bulls would think it’s the cat’s ass to go into the season with Kirk/Ben/Derrick but they’d be wrong. And trading Hughes ain’t gonna net us anything in return.
By the way, Darius Washington seems worth keeping to me.
Bravo.
Fantastic post.
Quick question: I don’t recall exactly how the Salary Cap is calculated, but if I recall correctly it is based off a percentage of selected league revenues – now I’m not sure if this is for the prior year, or for a trailing number of years, or represents a forecast for the coming year(s). However, if this is the case, I would NOT expect the Cap to continue to rise at historic rates; just today, David Stern announced that 9% of the domestic workforce of the NBA will be laid off due to an anticipated reduction of league revenues.
And quick opinion: That the obvious Hinrich/Nocioni fetish held by the decision-makers (Pax and Reinsdorf) has influenced the personnel decisions has really, really harmed the franchise. We’re greatly limited from a financial standpoint from the contracts held by these players, whose skills are redundant on our current roster, and either of whom could be dealt off for an expiring contract at this point in time (which, as you note above, may not always be the case). I wrote the following about the White Sox’s acquisition of Ken Griffey, Jr. at the trading deadline, and it seems the same toxin has infiltrated Jerry’s other team:
“Word is that Griffey agreed to the trade under the condition he play CF. With this in mind, shouldn’t the media narrative be that this was basically Kenny Williams catching his white whale? That he made a move to scratch an old fetish without regard to improving his team on-field? I like Kenny, but the motives here seem transparent.”
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by Jivas on Oct 13, 2008 12:30 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Great point
The cap is based on forecasting revenues, but then adjusted for the accuracy of the previous year’s forecast. IE, if it turns out they overshot in this year’s projection, they’ll compensate with a lower increase the following year.
Or, if they undershoot this year, they’ll have a bigger increase the following year.
As far as what that means for next year (the 09/10 season), I suspect you’re right (since the cap for this year is already set, the forecast has been made) but obviously we can’t know by how much since we don’t know what the forecast was.
I’d guess, though, that since the downturn looks to be worse than expected, the 09/10 cap increase would be smaller than the historical average since any shortfall vs. the forecast would be captured there. For the 2010/2011 cap, we obviously can’t know, since it’s dependent on actual business vs. a forecast that’s a whole year out from being made :)
On the whole, it seems to me that any expectation that (business conditions) and the cap might increase less quickly (or even decline) should make trading off bench players (for us, even if they’d start for someone else) on expensive long-term contracts even more of a priority.
Great post first off
Probably the most interesting one I’ve read here. Just a few points though:
1)A Marcus Camby for Noc trade is doable
Yes not straight up, but the Bulls have plenty of little salaries that could be used to broker a deal. For examples, a Cedric Simmons (1.74) and Noc (8) for Camby (10) could work.
You have to remember, though,
that in a 2-for-1, we’ll probably need to either sign a scrub or get a scrub back to maintain the league minimum roster size. So add at least a few hundred thousand back to our side. I agree with your general premise though; I’d be willing to throw in extra pieces to unload Noc and get back Camby.
Main point was simply that it took more work
Noc for Camby is easier to do than Noc for Simmons. If you’re the Clippers, maybe you don’t want to take Simmons back. If you’re the Bulls, maybe you have to include a couple million to pay Simmons’ salary. And so forth.
Those things get messy and it’s unclear to what extent the Bulls (read Jerry) are willing to do such things. Is he willing to pay out $2M in cash just to be rid of a player he probably already has personal fantasies about? If you’re Jerry Reinsdorf and your overriding methodology is to 1) make money and 2) pay guys you enjoy, then you’re very likely to just want to keep Nocioni around anyway and cut costs by letting the more effective but less gratifying guys walk.
I always thought
that Jerry’s overriding methodology was (3) to be an awesome negotiator, regardless of the actual players/monies/values/strategies involved. Sure, he doesn’t want to pay the tax and forfeit tax revenue, but beyond that objective restriction, I thought he mostly just wanted to “win” trades and deals and such, regardless of whether they actually helped the team. Maybe he has an inflated sense of Noc and Kirk’s value, but I’d bet he’d deal them in a heartbeat if he thought he was fleecing someone. So I guess it depends on his own estimation of Camby. . .
A better deal for both teams.
Is a trade of Gooden and Simmons for Camby. The Clips get an actual power forward for their roster rather than a redundant tweener (see Al Thorton) and the Bulls get an actual NBA Center. Its one of those deals that both teams can win. Of course, this thread is more about trading away Nocioni rather than improving the Bulls, but Gooden sucks too, so I would be more than happy trade him.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
Yes but...
… one of the points I was making was that we need to consider the financial situation next summer. Gooden/Simmons for Camby makes great sense on the court this year, but it makes the financial crunch next year even worse because we’re moving two expiring contracts for $10.65M owed to Camby next year.
That’ll put us within a couple million of the LT threshold before we even consider re-signing Gordon or trading him off to another team and getting something in return. If the cap doesn’t go up by much, even the combination of Gooden for Camby and trading Gordon for say, a player on his rookie contract could conceivably put the Bulls over the luxury tax threshold.
For that reason, while I really like the Gooden for Camby idea, I don’t think it can be addressed until the Bulls do some combination of deciding what to do about Gordon or moving Noc and/or Hinrich. I don’t think folks realize just how tied up the Bulls are until they move someone.
Simmons a very poor player
Teams have let him go for practically nothing for good reason.
I’d be disappointed if we pick up his club option. Wee need to let him go. He’s not going to become the player we’d, or any team, would need him to become.
There are better options in younger players like last year’s Leon Powe that could be found in later draft picks or in roster dumps to close the preseason.
by NBA Observer on Oct 14, 2008 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions
2)You said we might price ourselves out of the Gordon market
by extra millions coming from an unusually high draft pick and Gordon having an exceptional year. The odds of Gordon playing well enough to earn even more money and the Bulls staying bad/getting worse are pretty small if not nonexistant. And if that crazy situation did occur, it might point to the fact Gordon’s success might not be beneficial in a team atmosphere. He could theoretically be destined to be a player who only stands out on bad teams. Either way he wouldn’t earn the money.
Not sure I follow this point
Gordon could play well and the Bulls get the #9 slot in the lottery but win it and get the #1 pick again.
Or the cap could decline by an unexpectly large amount. Or Aaron Gray could turn out to be worth keeping. There’s probably a hundred things that could influence the cap one way or another and most of them don’t have anything to do with individual vs. team success.
I was just speaking in specific reference to team bad/Gordon good
I agree that Gooden/Gray could outearn their position. I guess my point is, I just don’t see them being bad, #9 pick bad, yet Gordon somehow shines. And if he did, it would only seem to point out Gordon is better on a bad team.
Gordon was a lot worse last year,
on a bad team.
If we’re horrible this year it’ll be a different kind of horrible, with Rose breaking stuff down, and perhaps his numbers will be good from that – but I don’t think you can take that to mean he only does good on bad teams.
3)The Hinrich-Gordon point might have been your best.
I have followed Pax logic, but it does seem like a preparing to fail type of logic. As in, we’re probably losing Gordon so lets keep the lesser player just in case. Either way, the Bulls aren’t really winners. I just don’t know if it has been established Gordon is the better player, especially in connection with Rose.
Right now, based on preseason, Hinrich has looked less than stellar. I agree his best value is as a point guard and Rose already deserves 30-35 minutes. But it’s too early to for sure to judge that he can’t play the SG. A Rose-Gordon backcourt scares me from a defensive standpoint.
Let’s play the first 40 games and evaluate who is truly the better fit. My guess is that it will be Gordon. At that point, look what you can do with Hinrich. But let’s give both an equal chance to earn the spot. Screw Thabo and Hughes until then. Who to keep, Hinrich/Gordon, is probaly the most important decision the Bulls will make this year.
I wonder if it's better to deal now than in 40 games
it’s possible that teams heading into the season know they need a PG…but in 40 games they may stink and say why bother. Or that Hinrich plays poorly in the 40 games and now you’re talking a season and a half since he was good.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 13, 2008 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hinrich is probably at his highest value right now,
at least compared to what he will be during the season. He’ll either spend significant time out of position, or won’t play much. Also, he’s a traditionally slow starter. People see him as an unfortunate guy in this situation, and would be willing to bet on him bouncing back (as many of us are). Even if he does play better, the situation is not going to let him get more value than he’s got now.
Hmm
Do you think it would have been easier to deal Noc earlier this summer when there was buzz about a couple teams actually wanting him, or now that their rosters are set and he’s cemented into a 15 minute a night (or less) roll for us.
Sorry, that was rhetorical and yeah, I’m bitter about it.
True, but we don't know who's best for our team. That trumps what we can receive in a trade.
Also, teams tend not to make deals at the start of the season. They prefer to see what they have. Which is what the Bulls should be doing anyways.
I know some people still don’t want to believe it, but Gordon is a bad defender. Not a slightly below average, but a bad defender at the 2. Rose so far has been a bad defender at the 1. That might be just too much to overcome, especially for a team that talks a lot about prioritizing defense.
Hinrich looks like he's turning into a bad defender at the two
I wouldn’t hold it against the Bulls if they’d already decided that the answer may or may not be Gordon, but it’s definitely not Hinrich. So holding on to either one doesn’t really apply, because even if Hinrich’s the better option it’s likely not good enough.
I also expect they’ll project Rose to be a plus defender, first season aside.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 13, 2008 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
He's looked terrible in the preseason
but come on, isn’t it a little to early to decide that?
If that’s the case, we might as well slot Aaron Gray in for the all-star game his per 40 numbers are 21 and 15.
I would like to note, it’s not the end of the world if they lose both. It just confirms the 2010 plan. I have no problem with a Rose/Thabo backcourt starting backcourt down the line. As bad as Hughes is, he can play 25mpg as the third guard in a worst case scenario next season.
I was referring not just to preseason
but the entire last season.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 13, 2008 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Well if that's the case, I would say let's relax and see what we have this year
Last year was a down year for almost everyone on the roster, so let’s give Hinrich an opportunity to re-establish himself. PG is by far the latest developing position in basketball.
well, better to trade a guy too early...
than if Hinrich loses value. He has a huuuge contract, so if this is his peak value going forward it’s still dicey.
You don’t think Hinrich’s developed yet? He’s 27. And for the hundredth time, everyone had a down season but Hinrich’s was the worst. Plus he’s trying to ‘develop’ as a SG, right?
Or were you referring to Rose’s development?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 13, 2008 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Hinrich can't lose value. Even in a worst case scenario that he sucks again
he’ll play SG and teams will cut him slack and say he needs to be a PG. He was on the Olympic team two years ago. The worst thing we can do is trade him after his worst season. Unless you’re saying you think last year was the real Hinrich and the previous 3 before it were not. In that case, you don’t want him exposed which is fine. But I think it’s safe to say he’s not as bad as last year.
His contact is not huge either. It’s 10mm this year and declines for the next 3. In NBA terms, that’s a manageable contract. Especially for a starting PG which Hinrich is. He’s somewhere in the 10-20 range of PGs. I’d range closer to the 10 side as well. Here is the list of teams that could justify a veteran PG:
New York
Milwaukee
Atlanta (bibby is a FA next year)
Charlotte
Miami
Orlando
Golden State?
Sacramento
Houston
Denver
Minnesota?
OKC
Portland
at his price?
if he has another bad season, this means Hinrich’s had 1 above-average season (06-07) out of 6 (2 average, 3 bad). It’ll have been 3 years since the Olympic invite.
I think the contract then borders on unmoveable, and even if some team thinks he was just out of position and worth a reclamation try, they won’t offer much to try it out.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 13, 2008 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Even if that was true, which I don't agree with.
Especially if you package him with an expiring (Gooden/Hughes).
I’d rather wait to find out for sure if Hinrich is bad for this team than guess it based on a few preseason games and one bad year. He is the one true combo guard on this roster (meaning his skills can fit either position, not that he’s just a little shooting guard), a team captain, and a player who is never trouble for the team despite his occasional whineyness on the court.
Perhaps you should read again Sam Smith’s take on Kirk. It was very well done, and while it shouldn’t be the end all be all, it gives you something more to think about:
that was written in March
like, B.C. man, before the point god descended from on high (or, from the heights of the draft board, anyway)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 13, 2008 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok but Rose being there doesn't mean Hinrich can't play
just that he can’t play full time PG. You can argue that Gordon can’t play full time SG. I’m just saying let’s sit back for the first half and see what we have. DRose is a unique player and no one really knows who will fit with him yet. If we lose a little value on Hinrich then so be it. I’d rather have that then trade him without realizing he still had value to this team. This team is building for the long hall, so what’s the rush on a short term deal.
Hinrich can't play full time PG
and he can’t play full time SG.
He’s too expensive to play full time Antonio Daniels.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 13, 2008 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Hinrich is better than Antonio Daniels.
And Daniels is making over 6mm. Hinrich can be a quality player if given the chance. I honestly believe Gordon will beat him out if contracts aren’t considered a factor. But it’s too early to make that judgment. There are just too many question marks about this team right now.
if he's better than Daniels
it’s as a full-time PG. Nocioni’s better than most backup 3s, but severely overpaid to do so.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 13, 2008 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess we'll see,
which is my point. I think Gordon will prove to be the better fit, but it’s far from guaranteed. I just don’t think we should move one player right away before we know for sure what we have. The amount of value you could lose on Hinrich isn’t really worth it.
Besides, you never know when Gordon is going to fake an injury!!
Man
I remember this article and it really was great. I agree with your points about waiting a bit. I do think gordon is the better offensive sg, but maybe hinrichs abilities will turn out to be better, and if he just becomes a bit more aggressive in his game he might be able to drop 18 points per game (he averages 16 for his career, so it is possible). He may never be as offensively potent as gordon, but if he could just knock down the open looks, create plays for rose, and go back to being on the defensive teams i think his value may be greater the gordons in what he can give us.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
Hinrich was never on the Olympic team.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
well, he was invited to the camp
so he was once on the team, before cut-downs :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 13, 2008 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions
He was on the 2006 team, and would have been on the qualifying team if it wasn't for his lame wife
He wouldn’t have made the cuts for this year, but he did spend a good amount of time playing basketball with the best players/coaches in the game.
"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 13, 2008 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Now that's just being petty
He was on Team USA, can we be happy now?
The Olympics is not the qualifying team.
It a huge difference. Did Derrick Rose get a Gold Medal because he was on the select squad this summer??? What players do in international basketball has little effect on their value in the NBA, especially established NBA players.
"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson
What are you talking about?
He played for Team USA at the FIBA World Championships. In international circles, the FIBA champ. is more important than the Olympics. The Olympics is only biggest in America.So sorry I used Olympic instead of Team USA.
You're confusing me
But the Olympics are the highest international level of competition under the FIBA rules. The FIBA World Championships are the mid Olympic tournament to determine the favorite in the Olympics.
Most, if not all the Olympic sports have a mid Olympic world championship that awards Gold, Silver, and Bronze medals.
Overall, this topic is trailing off into a slap fight.
Hinrich did play for Team USA. He made it past the cuts in 2006. he played in the FIBA 2006 world championships. Chauncey Billups and Jason Kidd were not able to participate in the player cuts for this 2006 squad. Also, I don’t think Deron Williams was invited in the 2006 class. I think he was invited the next Summer for the 2007 FIBA Americas Tournament in Las Vegas.
Hinrich is still a solid NBA guard and there aren’t many NBA guards that are better than him on defensive end.
by NBA Observer on Oct 14, 2008 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Here's a quick quote from Henry Abbot
“It amazes even those who are involved in Team USA itself. American fans, for some reason or another, refuse to believe that anything other than the Olympics could be the pinnacle of international basketball. But the people who work in international basketball, and fans in most of the world … they prefer FIBA’s World Championships. You know how in soccer the World Cup is head and shoulders above the Olympic title? It’s almost like that in basketball.”
“http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-33-227/The-Future-of-Team-USA.html”
by CJ Bulls on Oct 14, 2008 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Being from "most of the world" :-),
I don’t really think this is true. Most players in Europe would definitely prefer an olympic title over a FIBA World Championship title. But both are very important, there is not a huge gap between the two.
So I guess the truth lies somewhere between yours and NBAO’s opinions.
The Game chose him !
Fair enough
But the point is Hinrich wasn’t chosen for some amateur squad. He was on the same team with LeBron, Wade, DHoward and other NBA superstars.
Seriously - can someone email this to Pax?
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Blog-a-Bull collection plate maybe?
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

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