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Was Andres Nocioni ever good?

It certainly seems like he was; I have a pretty vivid memory of the "Happy Birthday" game against the Wizards, a few improbable dunks, and a bearded madman who spooked the olympic field when Argentina won the gold in 2004.  Unfortunately, I have much more recent memories of last season, when Nocioni shot 346 3-pointers (his career high) and averaged 4.2 rebounds (his career low).  That's more three-point attempts than Ben Gordon, and fewer rebounds than Chris Paul has averaged over his career.  Granted, I've said before that if there's one player the Bulls would benefit from trading, it's Noce.  However, in light of his bad contract, I can't help wondering which Andres we'll be stuck with: the authentically-tough (and hirsute) Noce that came into the league and threw his body around, or the histrionically-tough (and clean-shaven) Noce we saw last year.

When Noce plays an ugly game, he's good; when Noce plays a pretty game, he's bad.  Time for Noce to get good and ugly again.

I believe Andres is well-suited for VDN's pseudo-Phoenix sprint - if he plays power forward.   The offense VDN is preaching, and that the Bulls have shown so far, is predicated on 3 things: running in transition, taking the ball to the rim, and a really fast point guard (ahem) using pick and rolls to free up outside shooters.   For a 4, Andres both shoots and runs the floor exceptionally, and he can also take the ball to the rim when he sets his mind to it.  Paired with Luol Deng and Ben Gordon, that's three players that shoot open set-shots at a very high clip.  (Shooting and creating off the dribble is a different matter - but that's why we've got Derrick Rose.) 

There's another issue at stake here.  Andres succeeded at the onset of his career because his aggressive style of play was in sync the Bulls' identity.  The Bulls were Team Grit.  While Skiles didn't make us the league's best team, he certainly made us the most annoying - and Noce was the most annoying of the annoying. 

That's changed.  Last year, we weren't Team Grit anymore, and it doesn't seem like we're trying to be.  Skiles' scowl has been replaced with VDN's pompadour.   It's the difference between Kirk and Rose, Antonio Davis and Tyrus Thomas, and while I'll admit (happily) that the latter are exponentially more talented than the former, I'll also note that they haven't won a thing on the NBA level.

Upshot being: don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.  I sincerely hope that both VDN and Paxson recognize what was good about the Skiles-Bulls, and that this new effort is to synchronize elite talent with elite effort.  As such, Nocioni can be an integral part of this new team.  He can back up Luol at the 3 and Tyrus at the 4, hitting open threes when Rose kicks it out, and outrunning slower 4s on the break.  He can grunt, flop, draw charges, get dirty rebounds, and make other teams annoyed, out of control, and eager to go home.   He can only do this, of course, if he gets ugly again. 

I think he's more than capable of that. 

    

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Monkey wrench

Unlike most people here I am a big fan of Noce. Just look at him in the Olympics and see that this is a guy with value. And I agree with you he is better when plays ugly. Unfortunately coaches have not find the best way to use him. And that Deng is such an specialist at the 3 doesn’t help much. Still, I think he will help a lot if VDN find out how to use him.
Also let’s not forget that Deng usually misses some games with injuries. Having Noce at the bench is kind of a luxury. As I said here before he would be a starter in several other teams.
Last year was really surreal. I still think that this is a great team. If we Rose is mature by february and we trade Kirk (or even better if is Hughes) for a really good center… we’re on!

by JustAnotherFan on Oct 12, 2008 10:56 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

i agree i like Noch...

when he is being a pest on defense…hittin his 3s and taking it strong to the basket(prolly the only bulls player that did that last yr) VDN has to get Noch’s mojo back and get him a defined role in this new system…if we can make a trade Noch is expendable but i dont think we should just trade him for scraps…i know this is kinda of topic but plz get larry hughes outta here he has looked horrible so far in preseason

CHICAGO MANE!!!!

by YEP on Oct 12, 2008 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If his current hairdo is any indication...

he’ll be “ugly” Noce again this year.

by smash! on Oct 12, 2008 12:02 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I'd be happy if Noc

played some defense without fouling.

by RogersPark Kris on Oct 12, 2008 1:32 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If Paxson or VDN or Reinsdorf

or whomever the hell it is that’s running this team recognized Noc’s lack of value to this team, he’d be gone by now.

by Sports2 on Oct 12, 2008 1:36 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think it ll depends on how we use Noc

I think Noc will obey commands when he is told to do what he’s actually capable of doing.

Using him at the 4 will be effective when spacing is good and Noc rolling to the arc is a real option, but when the spacing breaks down Noc has to know he must roll to the rim and know a teammate will have to shift to the arc to get the spacing back. This is trust. Know your teammate will create the spacing when you roll off the screen.

I would try to get Noc involved in the offense in other ways before the high screen. Get him some looks from 14 to 18 feet. He an make these shots. Argentina set these up for him to GET HIM STARTED before they put him in the corner to just space and make threes.

by NBA Observer on Oct 12, 2008 2:10 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

noc would get murdered as a PF

by Belize on Oct 12, 2008 2:50 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Noc's been most effective as a PF historically

The problem is there are four guys I’d rather see playing that position ahead of him.

by Sports2 on Oct 12, 2008 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed on both accounts

he’s actually better as a very undersized 4 than a very slow 3.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Oct 13, 2008 7:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ugh

At least you forgot to throw “blue collar” in there.

by hscs on Oct 12, 2008 7:17 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

"At least"?

Save it for Comp 101.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Oct 13, 2008 7:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If I had a choice I could think of a hand full of other salaries and players besides Noc

to get rid of first!

1) hughes
2) simmons
3) hinrich

Hinrich, something happen to this dude within the last two years, and no one seems to hit the nail on the head when commenting about him. It is as if he loss his mojo in the shower in the locker room. A serious change happen somewhere? Point: View the Comcast Ad for NBA league pass, when Kirk is talking his voice is no higher than a third grade shy school girl and he appears to need the locker to help him stand erect. Why did he just give up and go home with his tail in-between his legs on the Olypmic team?
Why does he seem he hasn’t lifted weights since college? Why has he stopped attacking the basket? Stopped implies at one time he did! And he did!
Why does it seem he now hates physical contact, when at one time people would mention him in the same sentence as the great John Stockton and not only because they both are white, but for their physical play. He once was noted for defense and now the distinstion no longer exist, he gets killed on defense by most everyone he matches against now. BaB developed a label “Mopey lowian”, that never would have be attached to Kirk during his first two years in the NBA?

Something strangle is going on inside the mind of Kirk Hinrich, like a trance or tranformation. It’s unlike anything I’ve seem an individual transform into (other than a normal person becoming a drug addict or a man deciding to under go a sex change)

by exult463 on Oct 12, 2008 10:47 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

uhhh

any more of this and i may rant. I am known to do so. Wait till the season actually starts, then we can see really whats what. On a side note, i will be terribly dissapointed if kirk doesnt chuck up shots in the upcoming preseason games. I get not wanting to attack the rim, you dont want to get injured BEFORE the season begins, but its preseason kirk, if you are ever gonna get a good feel at being a sg it should be now. Chuck up bad shots now, get them out of your system, know where you can hit from and how, be aggressive at looking for your own shots. Thats my major dissapointed of kirk thus far. Ive seen him play defense (against taller guys on the mavs) ive seen him play smart, i see him stronger, but its that shot that worries me, he has showed he has one, but seems hesitant with it. Watch on youtube the wizards playoffseries of 04 to get a taste of non-hesitant kirk….good stuff.

guess i did do a mini rant huh?

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....

by piccolomair on Oct 13, 2008 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No it seems we are saying something similiar

I remember the early Kirk also, you mention the 04 playoffseries against the wizards, I remember also playoffs games against the Heat (the year they won championship) where Kirk was clicking on all 16 cylinders in every facet of the game. The team was running and Kirk was not taking time to think so much, but just doing it!

Surely piccolomair I respect your admiration, but we are not seeing the same Kirk today that we witness during 2004-2006.
Something happen, it is evident we all know it, but is like hush hush. Just as the sun rises in the morning and sets at night, The organization drafted a pg in Derrick Rose, when we extremely needed a scoring Michael Beasley in the front court…. Really confusioning unless the organization knew something that isn’t so apparent to us all?

As I thought more about last night, it could be too much pressure(by organization), league wide recognition was put upon his shoulders, opposing players took offense/challenged and targeted him more and he faulted, lost motivation and hasn’t recovered yet?

by exult463 on Oct 13, 2008 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He got married?

I still think he will be fine this year. He was never a great offensive threat, but he would constantly knock down open jumpers and wouldnt hesitate to take it to rack. Matt pointed out in the mavs game that kirk at times didnt even bother looking at the rim, stuck in some share the ball mentality left behind by skiles. Kirks defense also has been affected i think by skiles not being there. Skiles i think had kirks back when he played aggressively on d. How many times would skiles give the refs an earful, whereas boylan did not. Its not in any extreme situation, and its not that kirk NEEDS to have skiles or a loudmouth coach to play good defense, but it helped. I wont make any judgements until the first real season game, because i think that should showcase the entire team playing at thier best. Teams usually play thier best in thier first game cuz it may be the most important game of the season in terms of importance. Winning the first game can really start you off with confidence and start a streak going. So i willl have a full hinrich evaluation after we play the bucks.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....

by piccolomair on Oct 13, 2008 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

piccolomair

of course, you’ll give Kirk and the Bulls more time than the first game against the Bucks.
Skiles is a knuckle head, part idiot and many more things, but at this present moment in history he is better than any of the coaching staff sitting on the Bulls bench.

I’m not saying he’ll always be better than Vinny. Time will tell (give it another 3 years). Also that’s about the time Kirk’s contract expires and he’ll probably become an organizational man for the Bulls. Maybe initially a scout and also spend time coaching his children in the park district. It seems like Kirk marginally wants to continue playing competitive basketball himself..“not looking at the rim while making nearly 10 million a year”

We already witness enough softies on the recent Bulls with the Jalen Rose mentality – “I don’t drive to the hole much, because I can get hurt”…

by exult463 on Oct 15, 2008 6:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I get not

liking simmons because he isn’t a very good player, but he has an expiring contract, which makes him just another trade chip. And, even if we don’t trade him, he comes off the books at the end of the season just giving us more cap space. Seems like kind of a random choice. Any reason for that?

"Worker bees can leave.
Even drones can fly away.
The Queen is their slave."

by jpchi on Oct 16, 2008 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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