This team is a mess
It was all scripted so well. The veterans band together and single out a young insubordinate for further punishment. Everybody on the same page, showing leadership, salvaging the season. Sit back and wait for glowing remarks on your behalf.
But see, if you're going to play this "galvanizing the team" game, it shouldn't be initiated by Griffin and Wallace: someone who doesn't play, and someone who can no longer play (and is known for clashing with coaches himself!). And then have it endorsed by a lame-duck coach.
Oh, and you can't then walk on the floor with this welling of team spirit...and then give up 38 in the first quarter. Lose to the Hawks by 21.
This kind of story can perhaps be told about a great team with a track record of success. But these players have done nothing to earn minutes or power, and not only have they gotten a coach fired but they're now handing out disciplinary measures.
What a joke.
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Comments
I owe Skiles an apology
by Big D on Jan 13, 2008 4:08 PM CST 0 recs
agreed
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jan 13, 2008 4:12 PM CST
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I can picture Skiles
I've never seriously wished an injury on any player, especially never one on my own team, and it makes me sad that Wallace is bringing me rapidly toward that point.
by wjb1492 on
Jan 13, 2008 4:51 PM CST
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Have I heard this once before?Hmm...
by Azabullsfan on Jan 13, 2008 4:13 PM CST 0 recs
i find it hilarious that on this very page
by Mike C on Jan 13, 2008 4:14 PM CST 0 recs
What about Larry Brown?
I do not like Larry Brown abandoning every team he has been with. He did size up the Knicks in a month trying to make changes that Isiah now realizes but cannot make because they are his players. He did pull Detroit together t win a championship and put Philly in the Finals. What do you guys think?
by chgobr on Jan 13, 2008 4:21 PM CST 0 recs
Brown hates the youngins
by snley on
Jan 13, 2008 4:29 PM CST
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I completely forgot there was a game today
by snley on Jan 13, 2008 4:26 PM CST 0 recs
right
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jan 13, 2008 4:30 PM CST
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Hysterical
As far as Wallace, I don't think I've ever done a bigger 180 in my entire sports fanatic life. To think I was once happy with the signing.
by wjb1492 on
Jan 13, 2008 4:43 PM CST
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Should we be talking about re-builing?
Fire Sale!! Please Pax!! I cant look at these people for 5-6 more years!! Start Over!!
by TRiCioNeRo on Jan 13, 2008 4:29 PM CST 0 recs
Fire sale would be too drastic
by snley on
Jan 13, 2008 4:33 PM CST
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Plural?
by TRiCioNeRo on
Jan 13, 2008 7:32 PM CST
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You named pieces
Gray came into the NBA 10-15 years too late. He's a nice option for some minutes off the bench, but nothing to really build around. He's too damn slow to want as anything more than a very limited role player.
Obviously, some of that core that I identified above, will probably have to be used in attempts to improve the team via trade. Put with a good SG, I think they can make for a hell of a starting 5. That's why I'd be very much in favor of a McGrady trade.
by snley on
Jan 13, 2008 8:36 PM CST
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McGrady?
by TRiCioNeRo on
Jan 13, 2008 9:03 PM CST
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McGrady trade probably wouldn't happen
by snley on
Jan 14, 2008 8:14 AM CST
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I agree
Deng's timid (which is why he's an at best second fiddle).
I would try to keep the following from our team (Hinrich, Deng, Noah, Thomas).
I'd love to keep Nocioni (I know I'm on the rare side for this blog, but he's the only guy who plays his butt off every minute--and he's probably the best energy guy in the league, but if we can use him and Smith and maybe one of our potential guys (Thomas, Noah, Thabo) and a draft pick, then I'm for it.
I know everyone hates my minor tweak trade thoughts, but why not try to pry Mike Miller out of Memphis? Miller's a big SF/SG who while he doesn't maybe have the huge games of Gordon, he's always more consistent and his size makes him less guardable under pressure because he can at least make a pass when double teamed. I say trade Gordon, Khryapa, Griffin for Mike Miller. It sounds like a lot (3 for 1), but isn't that much when you consider that Griffin and Khryapa are fluff on our team anyway.
Miller's the guy I'd always compare GOrdon to going into this season (except Miller's got height, and Gordon has the ability for more ridiculous scoring games), but Miller can score (16.4 pts a game, and can rebound (7 pts/game).
Memphis will pick up $8.5M of cap relief next year that they could use for Gordon (but likely would not).
SUre I'd love a superstar, but since it's unlikely we'll get one (and I don't really want Gimpy McGrady these days) I think we should make a tweak and get another piece in the draft.
We'll have to wait out Big Ben's contract anyway before we can really be competitive again (or at least we'll have to wait until after next season when Big Ben's salary is a valuable commodity again), so let's at least try to make some waves playing the young guys and lookign competitive:
Hinrich
Mike Miller
Deng
Thomas
Wallace
Bench: Noah, Nocioni, Smith, Duhon, Thabo, Gray
This would be a minor tweak, but we still would have the assets for a more major tweak, and if that never happened, we'll at least have a more consistent starting lineup....Miller will help to really keep the defenses honest and with the size he has, he can at least keep a hand in the face of the bigger guys, which will slow them down a bit more than BG.
I still like Gordon, but we ain't keeping him anyway, so let's just end the BG experience while we can.
I also don't think (As all the analysts are saying on espn and si that the Bulls ahve the pieces for a blockbuster right now--salaries of Deng and Gordon are too low, and Hinrich/Noc with the BYC are too high), and nobody wants Wallace's mammoth cap killer contract.
by majoyenrac on
Jan 14, 2008 12:43 PM CST
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Plus
I know Thomas's attitude has cost him playing time, but from what I see (Even yesterdays 2 minutes at the end of the game) I see a big guy who can pass (that was an awesome pass at the end of the game that the announcers of course didn't watch) and a guy who can leap over everyone for rebounds/points.
He needs discipline and so does apparently Noah, and since that's the case, let's get a big man coach in there NOW.
I think both of these guys can be better than the current Chandler, and I do think Noah might be the only leader in this bunch (but he's a rookie and a very loud rookie who needs a bit of maturing).
I'd love to see some development of players (something outside of Deng we haven't seen--I think Noce, Hinrich, Gordon developed naturally, Deng's the only guy who had a big jump).
Let's get a big man coach and see what they can do.....it's just a shame the Bulls haven't really had many stellar big men. Last Thing I want to see is Stacey King in that role--although I might not mind it because the games would be easier to watch even when we're getting killed with Stacey not talking talking talking talking as much....
by majoyenrac on
Jan 14, 2008 12:52 PM CST
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Gordon and parts for Mike Miller?
by alee7805 on
Jan 14, 2008 6:59 PM CST
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No we can't
I do think especially given this year and the fact that in the last 2 years we've drafted 2 taller SG's, that it's a sign that we want to give up on the BG experience...
Plus I think a lineup of Hinrich-Miller-Deng-Thomas/Smith-Wallace/Noah would add a boost to our hot and cold team by virtue that Miller is pretty much consistent (when he's given the opps, he'll get his scores) where Gordon can have games where he's open and misses everything. Plus Miller can grab rebounds, passes as well as Gordon, can handle the ball better, and actually might be a better defender by virtue of his height....
Teams like Detroit wouldn't be able to completely outmuscle us with a big guard, and Mike Miller is a lot better than his league rep (since he's been lost on mostly mediocre Memphis teams and Memphis ain't really a hotbed for NBA talk either).
Memphis is sure to pull the plug on this one....and I think in this scenario we're trying something while giving us another trade piece (if Miller doesn't work, he's at least an $8.5M trade chip for a bigger trade later).
by majoyenrac on
Jan 15, 2008 7:59 AM CST
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Was it as bad as the score looked?
by TMD on Jan 13, 2008 4:48 PM CST 0 recs
It may have actually been worse.
What I really want is for the players I still like on this team to somehow get rescued from this misery, which I think playing the young guys would accomplish. They'd make mistakes, sure, but the whole attitude on the floor is different with the kids out there.
by wjb1492 on
Jan 13, 2008 4:56 PM CST
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Worse
Bulls 22
Joe Johnson 19
So, yeah.
by cubbybear on
Jan 13, 2008 6:25 PM CST
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Can't the players vote that Ben Wallace
by RogersPark Kris on Jan 13, 2008 4:58 PM CST 0 recs
I believe that vote
by MarketMaker on
Jan 13, 2008 5:25 PM CST
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I would find a way
by TMD on
Jan 13, 2008 5:33 PM CST
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I think
by TMD on Jan 13, 2008 5:02 PM CST 0 recs
Oops!
by exult463 on Jan 13, 2008 5:08 PM CST 0 recs
comment to the K.C.'s article
"Maybe one of the Bulls' problems is that they have a guy who can't even play calling team meetings. When will Deng, Gordon, and Hinrich step up and be leaders?"
by exult463 on Jan 13, 2008 5:26 PM CST 0 recs
Does anybody here
by MarketMaker on Jan 13, 2008 5:31 PM CST 0 recs
Wasn't it
by sue369 on
Jan 13, 2008 5:39 PM CST
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trading of Wallace
by TMD on
Jan 13, 2008 5:42 PM CST
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don't give ike too much credit...
by leeac on
Jan 13, 2008 10:53 PM CST
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An incremental improvement might be
by exult463 on Jan 13, 2008 5:43 PM CST 0 recs
What a load of BS
by ForWhomTheBullTolls on Jan 13, 2008 5:44 PM CST 0 recs
I agree with what you said
by No bull on Jan 13, 2008 5:45 PM CST 0 recs
E-Rob, Tim Thomas or Wallace
It seems as if the competition is between Thomas and Wallace?
Kinda miss Big Sweetney and Othella now? Wow, I believe the character building selections went out of the door with the high price purchase of Wallace.
Maybe Ben Wallace is a serious problem....
by exult463 on Jan 13, 2008 5:53 PM CST 0 recs
Wallace by far
by Big D on
Jan 13, 2008 6:06 PM CST
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I have felt
by TMD on
Jan 13, 2008 6:36 PM CST
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YTD: Reinsdorf made more on his crap
by runio on Jan 13, 2008 6:20 PM CST 0 recs
Big Ben
Wallace shot 1-5 from the floor (20%). Of the 4 misses, 2 were blocked. He only took one shot from more than 5 feet (a 14 foot miss). Wallace also shot 25% from the FT line.
I cannot understand how these numbers are acceptable under any standard.
by Stay Chisel on Jan 13, 2008 6:32 PM CST 0 recs
There's no statistic for grit...
by cubbybear on
Jan 13, 2008 6:44 PM CST
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If its not Noce with you guys its Wallace
You're missing the boat. The vote on the Noah thing was
unanimous. So you're going to bitch and moan over who called the meeting or took the vote to Boylan?? Makes no sense at all.
Forest and trees are different things.
Its taking some of you awhile to come to grips with the fact that
there are much much bigger issues on this team than Wallace
or how many minutes Thomas gets or any other single issue.
You need to let some of this piddling stuff go and look at the
broader issues.
They don't need to take it back to square one but the answer to this team's issues are not on the roster right now and its hard to see how Pax is going to trade his way out of this. There isn't going to be a +/- hero trotting up on a white horse to save the
season. Pax needs new guards and a new coach, at a minimum.
He's drafted poorly the last two years and failed to be proactive in trades. He's put poorly matched players together and its catching up with him.
Look. Atlanta sucks but they're the team with the brighter near term. This could get much much worse even if Wallace never plays another minute and Thomas averages 35mpg from here on in
by Rusty LaRue on Jan 13, 2008 6:45 PM CST 0 recs
Right on...
by Kemp on
Jan 13, 2008 7:28 PM CST
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Worse?
by TRiCioNeRo on
Jan 13, 2008 7:38 PM CST
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Yeah worse
We'll be getting more games like NY and Atl. Get ready for this Feb road trip.
by Rusty LaRue on
Jan 13, 2008 7:45 PM CST
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I agree
Therefore this then leaves Kirk somewhat abandoned trying to progress (playing with the likes of Duhon and Thabo) while his weaknesses are being exposed to the point of destroying his confidence.
He's like a wounded promised champion race horse (analogy to not having a complimentary backcourt mate). I question whether he'll ever achieve consistency (Bulls mgmt will ever be able to acquired a suitable backcourt mate). Or should he be pawned and sacificed (given up by the Bulls and traded to the Heat or the Blazers to become all that he can be playing along side one of his b-ball leather soul-mates in his generation) for a first round draft pick and other considerations. Or else he'll waste and pine away playing for the non-complimentary player case assembled for him by the Bulls.
Gordon will be ok as a 6th man, period. Nothing more.
Therefore, the Bulls guard situation consists of a shell of what he could be PG, a scoring 3rd guard off the bench, Duhon, Thabo and Griffin. All 5 aren't starters in the NBA, with the exception of Kirk only matched with the appropriate SG. Yes, this is a bigger problem for Paxson.
by exult463 on
Jan 13, 2008 9:31 PM CST
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You nailed it.
I think it is obvious right now that the Tyrus/Wallace/Thabo offseason was utterly devastating. Additionally, Noah seems to be a wasted pick, although it is hard to say it was a mistake because of what else was available at that spot.
It is now easy to defend Gordon (especially when Wallace is on the floor) so the only scorer on the team is neutralized and he doesn't have any other top-level skills.
Hinrich started off the year playing horribly but when he plays to his averages, he makes the Bulls a middle-of-the-road team. I think that's the ceiling right now.
Obviously there are no easy answers but I don't see any way this team can remain intact over the next five weeks. That will have to be the start of 08-09.
by nateroth on
Jan 13, 2008 10:14 PM CST
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I never thought I'd say this
Noce was overpriced, but saved the season with his overconfident chucker mentality, and Joe Smith has the highest PER on the team. If Noah and Gray count, they have made significant contributions and their selections should be noted(Gray might be the steal of the draft, if he can become more consistent). Also, refusing to give Gordon and Deng more money may have not only saved money, but may have just saved the Bulls' future for the next few years, as they have not been worth big-time money all year, and the leap forward has not happened, for the team or the players.
The big-money signings of BW and Hinrich(the former far more than the latter) were good at the time, but now appear foolish. When we look back, Paxson's decision making seems to be getting slightly better, IMHO. Ben Wallace is an outlier, and I think that Reinsdorf is at fault there.
I think a big-time coach can save this team. Only a coach that really draws some water(LB, for one), will sit Wallace and be able to take the heat. Noah, Smith, Gray, Thomas and Thabo are now the most important assets to evaluate, as Deng seems to be stable rather than improving at this moment in time, and Gordon enjoys his new role, but doesn't seem to be earning a starting spot just yet.
Better decisions up to the trade deadline and this offseason are something I think have the potential to give us back the hope that the Bulls regression has taken from us.
by cubbybear on Jan 13, 2008 6:52 PM CST 0 recs
You're right
by TMD on Jan 13, 2008 6:53 PM CST 0 recs
paxsons created a monster
paxson needs to be fired and they need someone who doesnt have a mancrush on each of his draft picks. fire sale would be better than watching this team. it makes me sick.
by Jbasic89 on Jan 13, 2008 6:59 PM CST 0 recs
Well
Wallace's defense does not make up for his lack of offense. The Bulls do not have the kind of offensive firepower necessary to play 4 on 5 on that end of the court. Many of Big Ben's misses are basically turnovers.
Other problems on this team include the midget backcourt, which includes the related problem of starting Chris Duhon. Chew on these stats: Duhon took 5 shots and missed them all. Of those, 3 were blocked. Duhon is shooting 37% from the floor on the year.
Between Wallace and Duhon, we have two starters who combined for 3 points on 10% shooting in over 51 minutes tonight. Does anyone know of a team with a winning record who can make the same claim?
by Stay Chisel on Jan 13, 2008 7:12 PM CST 0 recs
What a freaking joke...
by bullsfaninbigapple on Jan 13, 2008 7:31 PM CST 0 recs
Your right
by TRiCioNeRo on
Jan 13, 2008 7:43 PM CST
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What more needs to be seen?
by messwiththebull on Jan 13, 2008 8:48 PM CST 0 recs
Wow, first Skiles, then Big Ben
by T Maple on Jan 13, 2008 8:50 PM CST 0 recs
He's declined in two really important areas
by Scotter on
Jan 13, 2008 9:27 PM CST
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Just got back from the game
Boy did the game get away from them quick. The biggest difference was the aggressiveness. Joe Johnson looked unbelievable out there. Childress was trying to dunk everything, when he wasn't travelling. And the officiating was awful, both ways. Noc got pulled down on that spin move by Anthony Johnson, Johnson grabbed him on the shoulder. Couple of the Hawks were mugged on dunks and no calls. Kirk was hit on those jumpshots he bricked and there was no call. For all the travels and palms they did call, there were more they should have called. It was a very inconsistent job by the refs. Not that it made much difference when the bulls came out with no aggression. They were up 6-2 I think, turned it over a couple of times and all of a sudden I looked up and it was 25-8. My wife asked me if they were always this bad...
The most interesting thing about the game were the size of the players. There is no way BG is more than 6 feet, and Noc is a lot bigger than I thought, still just as slow as on TV though. And Aaron Gray deserves the nickname "Sasquatch." Joe Smith is really big, too. I was imnpressed with how professional he seemed compared to some of the other guys. During warmups, he spent at least 20 minutes going around, taking passes from the coaches after setting a pick and practicing jumpshots. At the same time Wallace was jacking up fadeaway 20 footers and taking the occasional free throw. Noah was running laps. Thabo was working hard and took a lot of shots, too.
The strangest looking guy was Marvin Williams. If you've ever seen Ben Wallace in person, the first thing you notice about him is his huge arms. Well, don't take this the wrong way, but Marvin Williams has the ass of a 300lb woman. He can't even stand up straight, it's like some kind of birth defect. I feel bad for the guy.
I got a picture with Red an Wayne after the game. I think this season has taken a decade of Red's life, and he might not have had 10 years left, he is looking old and tired. You can see how frustrated he is.
by bullshooter on Jan 13, 2008 9:11 PM CST 0 recs
Prior to every game at the UC...
And yes, Gordon looks even smaller in person. I stood next to him earlier this season and towered over him at a modest 6'3".
by 1958ChiTown on
Jan 13, 2008 9:25 PM CST
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Oh and I forgot the highlight of the game
by bullshooter on
Jan 13, 2008 9:36 PM CST
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