Real Problem with Bulls

by Blacknight23 on Jul 17, 2007 3:36 PM CDT

WIth everyone up in arms about the Noah draft pick, nocioni resigning, and Joe smith getting the midlevel it got me thinking What about the backcourt. People talk about the height of our backcourt but Tony Parker, TJ FORD, Steve Nash, Mo Willaims, Mike Conley, Marbury etc. are 6 feet at best. Isn't the real problem that we have two combo guards Ben and Kirk. All this talk about Kirk being a top ten Pg. He is not a PG. Neither is a pure point and neither is adequate at the two. My question is can Kirk become an allstar level guard and/ or Can Ben Gordon develop into an effective lead guard this year?

Poll

First Baby Bull in the All-Star Game

Kirk Hinrich

13 votes

Ben Gordon

10 votes

Luol Deng

106 votes

Tyrus Thomas

5 votes

Thabo Sefolosha

0 votes

Joakim Noah

1 votes

135 votes | Poll has closed

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Comments

Do we have to get into this again?

Need new sig

by bullshooter on Jul 17, 2007 3:41 PM CDT reply actions

I must have missed

the first go around.

by Blacknight23 on Jul 17, 2007 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions

It was worse than the Noc signing

go look in the archives before the trade deadline.

Need new sig

by bullshooter on Jul 17, 2007 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions

I don't think either one will happen

Ben is a scorer and I can't see him ever actually being a lead guard. Kirk could possibly make an All-Star team, but the East is usually very heavy on guards and he I think it's more likely that he will get lost in the shuffle. He's kind of like Sam Cassell. A good player that you would love to have, but doesn't quite make it to All-Star status.

by bigballa10 on Jul 17, 2007 3:44 PM CDT reply actions

not PG?

Why is Kirk not a PG? Is it because he can plays defense on SG - because that doesn't make sense? He is not tall enough or a scorer enough to be great SG in league. Just because he's not super fast does not mean he's not a PG and he has been the Bulls PG for years so don't know who that can be questioned

As far as Ben, he just needs to concentrate on what he does best, score. If he could draw more fouls and be little more consistant that would help. Sure Ben is not pefect SG against some teams due to his size disadvantage on defense but he can be explosive shooter / scorer. Just because he can pass and make some plays does not mean he is a PG, all good ballhandlers should be able make some palys for teammates, the more he scores, the more attention he draws which will then open it up for teammates

by NY Chicago Fan on Jul 17, 2007 3:58 PM CDT reply actions

Hinrich the PG

Hinrich is not really a point guard. He has to work on his assists. Everyone is screaming about his scoring, but a TRUE point guard stirs the drinks and makes the team go. A point makes it so that your players don't have to dribble. Just catch and shoot or dunk. When does Hinrich CREATE shots for his teammates. Ben does do this thats why I asked.

by Blacknight23 on Jul 17, 2007 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions

This might be news to you,

but the Bulls have a hard time putting up many points. He doesn't rack up assists because of the system that's in place, which is, pass the ball around and find the open man. It's not like the Suns or Nets where Nash/Kidd are setting up finishers, mainly 'big' finishers. And until late last year, the Bulls didn't really have one other than Curry. I rather have guys who can dribble and make wholes for others to get open than KH having 10dimes a game. Gordon can create his own shot and the reason he can pass to the open man is because he's the only one who get's double teamed. And honestly, I rather have KH passing out of a Double than BG. You'll see how it'll all change once Tyrus can get some real minutes. Since dimes usually come off of fast breaks or alleyoops.

The Future is bright!

by Goostafer on Jul 17, 2007 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions

good point

But how many times in a game do the bulls screen roll with their primary ballhandler/pg. Only reason they look to swing in motion is because thats where there best player gets his points (LOUL DENG). If skiles believed kirk could create he would let him do that. I'm not down on Kirk but he's proven not to be a crunch time player. He also make loads of dumb turnovers. I think he would be a better player if not expected to LEAD a team. When he was at kansas he was never the man.

by Blacknight23 on Jul 17, 2007 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions

I think the arguement

here is that you think that Kirk should be benched cause he's not a pure point. I just don't see how that makes any sense. He's the best perimeter defender the Bulls have, as mentioned before, and he can control the tempo of the team. What's a crunch time player? - Also, Kirk would probably be able to create more if there were more scorers to finish the job, don't you think? A dime is a only a dime if the ball goes in the basket. I think the main problem with Kirk is not his Dumb turnovers, but his fouls, which is another subject.

The Future is bright!

by Goostafer on Jul 17, 2007 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions

Okay

I think Kirk can start for a majority of teams just like I think Ben would. The problems come when they play together. He is a nice defender but not a great one as I see mentioned all the time. I think Kirk would not get anyone open shots because he does not have the speed, strength, or ballhandling ability to. No matter who is on team a point guard should get your team easy shots. On a team like the lakers Kirk would be an allstar I just think we limit his potential by forcing him to play the point when he really doesn't have the skillset. Gordon has the skillset not the mindset. Once again this isn't a Kirk over Ben thing it's a whats better for the TEAM.

by Blacknight23 on Jul 17, 2007 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions

Why do you say

Kirk would be an All-Star in LA? Who should start at the point for the Bulls if not Kirk?

The Future is bright!

by Goostafer on Jul 17, 2007 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions

Um, BG

also has many dumb turnovers and fouls. He's a disaster handling the ball.

by sue369 on Jul 17, 2007 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions

i agree

but how many turnovers from Ben actually come from his running the team. What I see is a player with small hands who has trouble CATCHING the ball. My problem is when we had a low post threat (curry). Ben had a terrific season especially in the fourth.

by Blacknight23 on Jul 17, 2007 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions

Ben had his best season last season

and it wasn't really close.

And I haven't kept track of how many of Ben's turnovers were 'running the team' and 'not running the team'. I doubt you have either. Especially since 'running the team' makes no sense. Maybe standing with the ball and pointing a lot?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 17, 2007 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions

Kirk is a PG

He played much better at pointguard, he doesn't get a lot of assists because he doesn't have anyone to pass to- gordon and deng are more of isolation players, if the bulls had a scoring big man kirk would have more assists.

by bull on Jul 19, 2007 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions

Up in arms?

I like the moves they made considering that there's not shit out there.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 17, 2007 4:06 PM CDT reply actions

I hate the term 'pure point'

since it mostly means 'short guy who can't shoot' which isn't really a desireable trait.

So when Duhon's labled as 'pure' and Hinrich isn't, that should tell us all enough how valueable that term is.

(slightly off-topic, I have similar issues with Celtics fans who think Rajon Rondo can survive without a jumpshot because Bob Cousy could dribble with his headdown around a bunch of farmers 60 years ago.)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 17, 2007 4:08 PM CDT reply actions

shooting

I agree Matt, I think Bulls need guards who can shoot. PG's without jump shots have to be extra ordinary at everything else (very quick and supreme passing) and even good PG like Parker works hard on his jump shot. Not too many can be like JKidd and dominate game without great jump shot

by NY Chicago Fan on Jul 17, 2007 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions

Pure

point means creating offense for your teammates. Kidd, NASH, Andre Miller, Chris Paul Deron Williams, Baron Davis, Ridnour etc. Kirk doesn't do this. Nor does he finish at the rim or shoot the ball well from the outside. He's average at best at that.

by Blacknight23 on Jul 17, 2007 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions

For years and years and years

they were just guards.

And Skiles system doesn't need a "pure" point guard.

Jeesh, these arguments get old. Until last year, Kirk was the best player on the team. It's not that he's gotten worse, Luol's getting better very fast.

by KT on Jul 17, 2007 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions

I just read your Duhon comments on other posting

So Kirk is not a point guard because Duhon gets mins? How does Duhon playing make Kirk not a PG? Duhon is the backup and I don't know why Skiles ever played them together, but I think most fans wish it doesn't happen again

by NY Chicago Fan on Jul 17, 2007 4:08 PM CDT reply actions

Skiles

played them together because Kirk is not A PG. And skiles knows this. There has been much bashing about duhon but he runs the team the best on the Bulls. We let Duhons trade value sink when we could have gotten a first rounder from boston or toronto the last two summers.

by Blacknight23 on Jul 17, 2007 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions

Skiles is a doof

and couldn't substitute his way out of a high school game. Actually, he would substitute his way out the door with an angry mob pursuing him.

by hscs on Jul 17, 2007 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions

Drives me crazy

Understanding who and when to substitute is a skill that Skiles doesn't seem to have to say the least. I like that he will take guys out if they don't seem to be giving the effort, but he takes using role players to the extreme. Adrian Griffin should never see the light of day on this team. More Tyrus and Thabo please!!

by bigballa10 on Jul 17, 2007 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions

no, the mob is chanting 'noh-cee-oh-nee'

Skiles subs in Duhon because he doesn't turn the ball over. I hate it, and it makes little actual sense, but that's the reason.

But I guess in blacknight's world, having the offense stall and take bad shots because of a zero at point (and knowing the Bulls, an offensive zero at another position too) is better than a guard with an actual game taking a shot on his own.

They're a better offense when Hinrich is on the court, that's a fact. I can lend an ear to a well reasoned argument (if there's one to be made) saying that Hinrich needs to distribute more and shoot less in the future, but to say Duhon runs the team better is silly.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 17, 2007 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions

On Hinrich

I would argue that Hinrich needs to look for his shot more. The knock on him has always been that he needs to be more agressive in looking for his shot, going back to Kansas. This was part of a scouting report on him from NBAdraft.net:

"Weaknesses: Biggest hurdle for Heinrich is developing toughness. Needs to be more assertive and his game can really expand. Must develop his strength and endurance to withstand an 82 game pro season. One more year in Coach Williams's system will help but he needs to work hard over the summer to take his game to the next level. At times he makes bad decisions on the defensive end and picks up senseless fouls so attention must be paid to his defense. Could stand to be a little more selfish on offense and should try to get his shot a little more."

Other than the fact that they spelled his name wrong, I think the lack of assertiveness is still an issue.

by bigballa10 on Jul 17, 2007 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions

Kirk's also tired

Kirk gets beat up when he guards the opponent's shooting guard who usually has 3 inches on Kirk. The height difference forces him to work even harder to defend (and obviously good defense is already tiring), so I think his shortcomings as a passer and his poor FG% can at least be partially attributed to that.

I don't know about that scouting report though... from day one, Kirk established himself as a tough guy. Their word choice makes me scratch my head.

by paxson43 on Jul 17, 2007 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions

You're right about the toughness

I just wish he would stop having so many long periods of time where you forget he's out there on offense. Until last year though, he always seemed to go to another level in the playoffs.

by bigballa10 on Jul 17, 2007 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions

hinrich's fouls

damn thats prophetic. Thats what he should work on the most. nothing angers me more than hinrichs dumbass fouls. Espescially when it means lots of playing time for duhon right away. Thats more the reason that duhon plays, a combo of ben gordon turnovers and hinrich fouls.

by Sambossanova on Jul 17, 2007 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions

How about this

We put 5 guys on the floor that we think is a good matchup against the 5 guys we're facing. Not everything has to fit so neatly in the PG, SG,SF, PF, C form. It's nice to, but as long as for that stretch, whether it be for half of the first to three minutes of the third, outplay the team we're facing, it doesn't matter too much.

by Othellas Mustache on Jul 17, 2007 7:03 PM CDT reply actions

Talking about this a month

after the Bulls played is dumb. All most people remember (and that means everybody) is the last game. Blackknight, most of the assertions you make leave me scratching my head. I don't think you and I are watching the same games. BG gets his turnovers from throwing the ball away and dribbling too much and not very well. How can he be a pg if he can't do those two things effectively. Kirk can play better too.

Need new sig

by bullshooter on Jul 17, 2007 9:30 PM CDT reply actions

I very

much agree with this.

These comparisons are getting retarded. They don't even play the same position nor contribute the same stuff for their team.

Bulls Will Eat You For Breakfast

by Ronald on Jul 18, 2007 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions

NOT A PG

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uhU5-VHUCxw

Like Goostafar said, the bulls system centers around "good ball movement". The team is filled with (pardon the cliche) Jump-shooters, and doesnt center around anyone stat stuffing. Everyone is told to rebound, play hard defense, pass the ball when not open, and if you have a shot take it.

As for hinrich, he might not be a nash like pg, but he is the best floor general on the bulls. There have been numerous games when hinrich is shown yelling at the team because they are running the wrong play, or simply watch teh flow of the offense when hinrich is on the bench.

Incidently, on nba.com when you look at the league leagers, hinrich is posted with shooting gaurds, and if he was categorized with point gaurds, his numbers are up there with some of the best in the league.

Also, if you must categorize hinrich as some sort of gaurd, i think he is a Defensive Point Gaurd

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Jul 18, 2007 1:01 AM CDT reply actions

Basketball Question

So what kind of offense do the bulls play. Its not really a princeton offense. Whats the proper nomenclature for this ball movement style play? Or is it just called the non cavaliers isolation style.

by Sambossanova on Jul 18, 2007 1:12 AM CDT reply actions